Inverting the zodiac and other confusions... (help!)

This will sound like yet-another post regarding Astrology in Southern Hemisphere. It's long, and I know some people are tired of discussing it, but I think I need some guidance here. I live in the Southern hemisphere... I love astrology and want to keep learning it, but the more I learn the symbolism, the more I find it incompatible with my reality.


So, I have been researching a bit about possibilities for Southern Hemisphere astrology, how it differs from the Northern one if we were to respect our seasons here. I believe it would not change in terms of planets or aspects, since other planets are seen more or less in the same position, no matter in which Hemisphere you are. But in terms of signs, things get confusing.


Because the Tropical Astrology defined the beginning of it's zodiac wheel according to the Spring (aka Vernal) Equinox, that happens in March 20-something (or at least happened in a distant past), that explains why this is the moment assigned for Aries.

Furthermore, all cardinal signs (which mark the beginning of the seasons) seem to have a lot of symbolism that connects them to the seasons according to the Northern Hemisphere, that's which astrology as we commonly know originated.

So, to make it work in the South, one would have to ignore any season-symbolism (which is what I did until recently, because I was blissful unaware, lol!), find a way to connect the signs with the season or... invert the whole zodiac?

That's what I found many people suggest in my researches. You take the poor southern fellow's birth date, add this, subtract that, turn it upside down, dance the cha-cha, pull it inside out and there you have it, their sun sign and natal chart. Not to mention that it makes the whole astronomical conversation confusing, since a person born in the same day as I in the US is Sagittarius, whereas I'm Gemini.

It'd make sense to invert everything, if we consider Aries = Spring. Our spring is on September, so that's when the zodiac wheel should start in the South. (I'd like to add that this is all very formal - in northern parts of my country, near the equator, they don't have 4 seasons to begin with, only two - dry and wet. Perhaps they'd need to adapt astrology too?)

On the other hand, the zodiac used in Tropical Astrology, is but an invention (at least in the way it's used now). It's not about the constellations, but about 12 divisions on the sky - made by humans. So, although there are ancient reasons behind the current layout, a bit of it happens to be... arbitrary? Aries = Spring is not an absolute truth if it doesn't work everywhere on earth. And nowadays it doesn't even quite work in the Northern Hemisphere, thanks to the infamous precession of the equinoxes. Of course, it's still much closer to my Canadian friends' reality than mine.

*sigh*

The more I read, the more mind-boggling it all becomes. Like I said, I love astrology, but being in the south makes it hard for me to understand if I'm now Sagittarius, Gemini, or something else. I'd like to keep learning it, but I get confused. I really can't say Capricorn = Winter when I spent all January melting under 100ºF degree heat. If I'm going to use astrology in my reality, it must make sense in it.


So, I have some questions to those who are more experienced than I:

- Is it possible to use Northern Hemisphere Tropical astrology in the Southern Hemisphere in a way that doesn't turn a blind eye to the seasonal differences?

- Do you think one can work with the Tropical astrology as it is, and ignore all seasonal symbolism in the zodiac, without any impairment to their work?

- When you calculate the natal chart of someone who lives in the Southern Hemisphere, do you make any adaptions? Which ones?

- Finally, if the Tropical Astrology cannot be adapted to where I live, what other kind of astrology could be useful to me?


I thank you all who read my long (and perhaps confusing) post. Understand that none of this is any criticism to Tropical astrology. Unfortunately I cannot ignore my reality, and if astrology as it cannot work within it, then I'll look for other ways to explore the heavens. But I'd really like to try all possibilities before giving up.

Thanks!
Thank you!

You might find the following threads helpful Marina as they discuss the possibilty of a Southern Hemisphere approach.,

http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=97951

http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=22857

http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=34445


Bee

Inverting ?

The math and inverting processes that you speak of are probably related to the fact (if you were a pre-1980's astrologer) that any Table of Houses used to find the MC, Asc. and house cusps were constructed for the northern hemisphere. To use them for the southern hemisphere you have to do some math and inversion. BUT THAT IS JUST FOR MANUAL HOUSE DETERMINATIONS.

A while back, 3 or 4 years ago at least, I did a series of charts for someone in Australia; one for the south area, one for the north area, and two more for points above the equator (on convenient land locations) and in Japan. All more or less along a line north-south. All of the Ascendant's were much the same except for small variances depending on the east-west variances and (in the higher latitude) due to latitude distortion due to the equatorial-ecliptical angle.

As for seasonal references, just cast them out. A reliance on C-F-M and on F-E-A-W symbolism woks fine. Or be like me and just throw those useless signs out. It makes life and astrology so much easier. Dave

Thanks Bee.

I had read some of these threads, but I wanted to ask speicific questions and show all my confusion (lol!), without invading other people's threads, that have different concerns sometimes.

Also, it seems that people have many suggestions, but nothing practical. I wish to know if there's any method the astrologers here have used and can say that works. If Astrology is an invention that can only be applied to the Northern Hemisphere without being bastardized, then perhaps we southerns cannot rely on it?

Hi Dave!

Thank you for your answer!

dadsnook2000 said:

The math and inverting processes that you speak of are probably related to the fact (if you were a pre-1980's astrologer) that any Table of Houses used to find the MC, Asc. and house cusps were constructed for the northern hemisphere. To use them for the southern hemisphere you have to do some math and inversion. BUT THAT IS JUST FOR MANUAL HOUSE DETERMINATIONS.

Click to expand...

I'm sorry, I'll sound stupid, but I need to ask. So this invert calculations are not needed if, lets say, you use a software to make natal charts?

Or is there any differences in the order or attibutions of the houses for the Southern Hemisphere?

dadsnook2000 said:

A while back, 3 or 4 years ago at least, I did a series of charts for someone in Australia; one for the south area, one for the north area, and two more for points above the equator (on convenient land locations) and in Japan. All more or less along a line north-south. All of the Ascendant's were much the same except for small variances depending on the east-west variances and (in the higher latitude) due to latitude distortion due to the equatorial-ecliptical angle.

Click to expand...

Interesting! Thank you for your example!

I had thought that since the sun and the earth move the same way (with slow wobbles over the centures), and the zodiac is basically a human invention with no real definite 'starting point', there would be no reason to invert the signs themselves.

But since so many books and websites insisted on the inversion, I decided to ask...

dadsnook2000 said:

As for seasonal references, just cast them out. A reliance on C-F-M and on F-E-A-W symbolism woks fine. Or be like me and just throw those useless signs out. It makes life and astrology so much easier. Dave

Click to expand...

Thank you for the suggestion. May I ask you, how do you work without the signs? I'd be interested in learning this!

For Marina

Just try interpreting your chart based on planets, aspects and houses. It works quite nicely. Dav

Marina,

You are quite right, the tropical zodiac, (and indeed the sidereal zodiac) are the products of Northern Hemisphere Astrologers. As Dave implies, the MC's of points on the same meridian is the same, whether North or South of the equator, the Ascendants may not be - I tried taking a Northern Hemisphere chart and simply changed it to Southern latitudes of the same value and on the same meridian.

I've been thinking about this for some time, not quite sure of the answer, but I offer this as a possible approach.

I think the problem lies in the way the signs are defined. Firstly, jettison all the post Alan Leo stuff on personality descriptions associated with signs. They are comparatively modern and are dubious anyway. Instead concentrate on four factors:

1. Do the signs in the South have the same mode - Cardinal, Fixed, Mutable?

Yes the do - Cardinal signs mark the beginning of each season - so Libra in the South is Cardinal because it marks the Spring Equinox. and you will find all the other cardinal, fixed and mutable signs retain their modality.

2. Do the signs retain the same elements - Fire, Earth, Air, Water?

Yes they do - the element is independent of the season.

{c]3. Do the rulers change?[/b]

No they don't - and the sign rulers add something of meaning to each sign but note the points in 4 below

Do the seasons change?

Obviously this is the root of the problem, Yes they do. So instead of having a Sanguine overlay, Aries in the South marks the onset of Autumn, a Melacholy period. So if I were knowingly assessing temperament for someone in the Southern Hemisphere, I should alter the Sun's waiting in that assessment to reflect Southern seasons. Indeed I think a traditional Astrologer such as Lilly would have done so if he was called on to do a temperament reading for someone born in South America (he wasn't aware of Australia) assuming that he knew the seasons were different.

The issue of rulerships is a problem because of the seasons. The Sun rules Leo because it is the hottest period in the North and Saturn rules Aquarius because it is the coldest (not that you'd believe that given the English Winter this year).

So there might be a case for reversing the sign rulerships and exaltations in the South, which would also have some inluence on the temperament calculation.

So overall, I don't think it's a question of inverting the whole lot but there is clear areas where change IS required when doing a reading and we can explicitly and fairly easily implement those changes.

BUT if you keep to a modern view of signs, then there will be fairly serious problems which won't easily go away.

You might also consider using a sidereal zodiac - which is independent of the seasons - but that is an issue on which we have several other threads, so I won't venture into it here.

My previous post crossed with Dave's:

Yes you could try that - and it would work BUT you would have to abandon signs completely (except purely as a measuring scale) I think that throws away the baby with the bathwater - my suggestion is less radical and leaves you with more information to work on in your assessment.

Try it and see, Try my suggestion and see - and indeed other Sourthern Astrologers might have a go to. The feedback would be very interesting

Thank you, Minderwiz!

You post was very informative!

Minderwiz said:

1. Do the signs in the South have the same mode - Cardinal, Fixed, Mutable?

Yes the do - Cardinal signs mark the beginning of each season - so Libra in the South is Cardinal because it marks the Spring Equinox. and you will find all the other cardinal, fixed and mutable signs retain their modality.

Click to expand...

Yes, the seasons still formally start in the same moment in both hemisphere, so the Cardinal signs would be the same. BUT, they'd start the opposite seasons, and since season IS the basis of the zodiac (at least it's placement and order), then it might be a problem for the southern astrologers, unless they don't take into account.

Minderwiz said:

2. Do the signs retain the same elements - Fire, Earth, Air, Water?

Yes they do - the element is independent of the season.

Click to expand...

Great!

Minderwiz said:

3. Do the rulers change?

No they don't - and the sign rulers add something of meaning to each sign but note the points in 4 below

Do the seasons change?

Obviously this is the root of the problem, Yes they do. So instead of having a Sanguine overlay, Aries in the South marks the onset of Autumn, a Melacholy period. So if I were knowingly assessing temperament for someone in the Southern Hemisphere, I should alter the Sun's waiting in that assessment to reflect Southern seasons. Indeed I think a traditional Astrologer such as Lilly would have done so if he was called on to do a temperament reading for someone born in South America (he wasn't aware of Australia) assuming that he knew the seasons were different.

Click to expand...

Astrologer Alice Portman, from Australia, suggests that the different in the seasons would simple impact the way the sign manifests itself. A Capricorn person in the Southern Hemisphere would be a SUMMER Capricorn, whether in Northern hemisphere, they'd be WINTER Capricorn. They'd have the same 'basis', but different ways of expressing it.

I'm not sure if it makes much sense though, because the Tropiac zodiac is rooted in the seasons. Capricorn, Aquarius, Pisces - they are there because they are 'winter' signs. Cancer, Leo, Virgo - summer signs. And so on.

Minderwiz said:

The issue of rulerships is a problem because of the seasons. The Sun rules Leo because it is the hottest period in the North and Saturn rules Aquarius because it is the coldest (not that you'd believe that given the English Winter this year).

Click to expand...

Hahaha, Aquarius is melting-hot here! Perhaps in the Southern it's related to the amount of water you drink .

But I agree, with you. Although I must confess that for me Sagittarius is a summer sign (perhaps because I was born on December 1st in a 100ºF degree day!).

Minderwiz said:

So there might be a case for reversing the sign rulerships and exaltations in the South, which would also have some inluence on the temperament calculation.

So overall, I don't think it's a question of inverting the whole lot but there is clear areas where change IS required when doing a reading and we can explicitly and fairly easily implement those changes.

Click to expand...

I don't know if I'd know exactly what changes to make, specially since I'm not so good with astrology yet. But in a sense, I think it'd make me feel very 'far away' from the rest of the astrology world. Imagining trying to discuss rulerships, falls and exaltations with someone from Europe, having to invert verything. It's like learning tarot reversals - another 78 menaings to memorize!

Perhaps Southerns will have to find their own way to see and interpret the sky.

Minderwiz said:

BUT if you keep to a modern view of signs, then there will be fairly serious problems which won't easily go away.

You might also consider using a sidereal zodiac - which is independent of the seasons - but that is an issue on which we have several other threads, so I won't venture into it here.

Click to expand...

Thank you for your suggestion. There's isn't much material about Sidereal astrology here were I live. The only book I found was related to Vedic astrology, and seemed too connected to religions for my taste. I like astrology exactly because you don't need a definite belief system to use it.

Minderwiz said:

Yes you could try that - and it would work BUT you would have to abandon signs completely (except purely as a measuring scale) I think that throws away the baby with the bathwater - my suggestion is less radical and leaves you with more information to work on in your assessment.

Try it and see, Try my suggestion and see - and indeed other Sourthern Astrologers might have a go to. The feedback would be very interesting

Click to expand...

Thank you! I'll research more about the adaptations needed for a southern usage of such a northern-rooted science. I'm not sure if it'll work, but I like astrology so much I really wish I could use it.

I wish someone had written a good book about this, as a way to start if you are a beginner! It's hard to learn a bunch of stuff and then realize it doesn't really work where you live.

You might try the introductory textbook:

On the Heavenly Spheres written by Helena Avelar and Luis Ribeiro

http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=152043

It's an introductory traditional Astrology text book, but I think the traditional approach is easier to amend for the Southern Hemisphere.

My point on seasons is that, in traditional Astrology the Sun is weighted by season - so if you were born in Aries - Gemini inclusive, in the North, the Sun is treated as being 'Sanguine' a characteristic of Spring. If you are born in Libra - Sagittarius inclusive, the Sun is treated as Melancholy (a characteristic of Autumn). Now for the Southern Hemisphere, I think you simply reverse these - Libra-Sagittarius becomes Sanguine and Aries-Gemini becomes Melancholy.

In the South Cancer-Virgo becomes Phlegmatic and Capricorn-Pisces becomes Choleric.

You'll also find more details on the assesment of temperament in the thread:

http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=135390

on Traditional approaches to Astrology.

Traditional Astrology doesn't use the Sun sign approach and talk about Capricorn or any othe sign description of character - rather it uses the four temperaments of Choleric, Sanguine, Melancholic and Phlegmatic and their relative combinations. I think that might well be modified for the Southern Hemisphere but to check this we'd have to do an awful lot of nativities (anyone know of research grants on offer)