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NamasteIndia
05-04-2011, 02:40
My sons geography book says that Pluto is no longer a planet
Strange because earlier it was and very important part of astrology too.
And it had its effects like sudden combustion wherever it was placed in a chart.

I know of some cases where pluto in 4th house caused sudden heart attacks.
My pluto is in 10th house of career which gave me a roller coaster ride with career....

so what do you'll feel is pluto still a planet?

Minderwiz
05-04-2011, 03:33
Firstly, your son's geography book is correct - in the sense that Pluto was reclassified as a 'dwarf planet' as defined by the International Astronomical Union in 2006. Indeed it is not even the largest such body, a distinction that falls to Eris.

There's a large volume of Astronomical evidence which shows that Pluto was mis-classified as a Planet following it's original discovery in 1930, mainly related to a grossly inaccurate estimate of its size and it's extremely oblique orbit which is also such that for part of it's path it lies within the orbit of Neptune.

Now Astrologers quickly followed Astronomers in adopting Pluto as a planet but faced with Astronomy's recantation, they have largely kept with Pluto as an Astrological body. Much of the 'academic' Astrological argument in favour of Pluto is now based on the work of Richard Tarnas, who is a a 'cultural historian' and 'philosopher' but not an Astrologer (though these days that doesn't count for much).

Now I don't use Pluto, and indeed I don't think there's any Astrological justification for using it (though obviously I'm in a minority and Dave would seriously disagree with me) Part of the problem is that there's no serious work on assessing it's impact, mainly because no one seriously looks for other possible explanations (How many people with Pluto in the fourth actually do have heart attacks, or how many people with Pluto in the tenth have 'roller coaster' careers). Astrology is usually far more complex than a simple planet effect relationship. I have suggested elsewhere that there should be such an assessment but it went down like a lead balloon LOL

So the current situation is that Astrologers, like many other academic disciplines, follow what they were taught and don't seriously look for alternative explanations. I doubt this will change because any scientific analysis of Astrology would lead to the investigators being treated as laughing stocks and anyway, can Astrology be properly assessed by a modern scientific approach?

dadsnook2000
05-04-2011, 05:19
As Minderwiz noted, I disagree with him relative to Pluto's importance to astrologers.

I have recently read that Pluto has been reclassified as a planet, its former status, but I haven't verified that yet. Yes, Richard Tarnas has made quite a case for the relevance of the outer planets (Jupiter through Pluto) concerning their connection to archetypal meanings within astrology and mundane history of our world culture. Indeed his book, Cosmos & Psyche, is so huge and full of detailed information, that he may be the only person to have actually read every word. I have that book and it took me a long time to get through it.

However, others (long before Tarnas) have done extensive studies in terms of the numbers of charts carefully researched relative to the outer planets. I'm talking of Witte and Ebertin, the famous Germany astrologers of the early 1900s. Their books, A) Witte-Lefeldt, Rules for Planetary Pictures, and B) Ebertin, Combination of Stellar Influences, together represent a most extensive set of research projects on the planets and their relationship to individuals. Both these astrological researchers use midpoints, a tool for examining three-planet combinations and interpretations that are quite exact in their meanings.

Recently others have taken up the task of examining our ever-expanding astrological universe. Martha-Lang Wescott, a former student and close friend of mine, has researched asteroids and written about them more than any other astrologer. Phillip Sedgewick has been addressing the larger star field including comments, centaurs, dark holes and fixed stars -- as have others.

As our universe increases and our cultural-scientific-awareness-consciousness levels increase and become more complex, many feel that we need to be open to expanding our astrology on a comparable level. Rather than stick with the visible sky and planets of ages past, some of us are choosing to look at the new "visible-thru-other-eyes" sky of today and to explore what we find there. Will our use of these new components prove to be valid? Who can tell, but then, who can say "no, they won't be useful or applicable?"

Astrology is man's tool for seeking to equate himself to the meanings found in the perpetual universe through observational patterns down here and up there. As our sky expands, and as we expand, it seems only right that we seek to find and apply new patterns of thought. This seems to me to be much more rational than following ancient ways within a modern world. Dave

Minderwiz
05-04-2011, 07:27
I don't think Dave and I are going to agree on this one, so I don't really want to prolong the discussion - you will find our discussion in more detail in the thread:

http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=144335

I would though point out that Witte's Regelwerk für Planetenbilder was published in 1928, two years before Pluto was discovered - though Witte was a firm believer in the existence of trans-Neptunian planets, even beyond Pluto (following it's discovery) a theory which actually led to many not taking him seriously. In many ways he was right about the existence of such bodies, even if the Astrology was a little flaky. He died in 1941 which really is too soon after the discovery of Pluto to contribute much real consideration - a pity because he was an able man.

Much of Astrological theory sees the outer planets as important because they are heavy - both in mass and in their ponderous movement, that is supposed to have deep seated and long lasting effects, rather than the ephemeral effects of lunar or mercurial contacts. However the assessment of Pluto's size has proved to be massively (pardon the pun) wrong. Originally thought to be the same size as Earth, it has since been revised to have a mass of about 0.2% of Earth. Now there is still some uncertaintly over this and Astronomers' analysis of Pluto has been notoriously poor. However it does seem to be highly probably that Pluto is indeed a small fraction of the mass of Earth. So it's claim to be a heavy planet rests on it's extremely long orbit and indeed it's eccentricity and inclination actually take it outside the zodiac for much of it's orbit, it's position has to be projected onto the zodiac in order to give it a sign placement.

Witte and Ebertin tried to take a scientific approach to Astrology (which may or may not be misguided) but I know of no evidence that they actually tried to disprove any Pluto effect by searching for alternative explanations.

In many ways Pluto is a very interesting body - its existence and nature provides real challenges for Astronomy and also Astrology, Yes there are arguments for reinstating Pluto as a planet but if it happens then there are other bodies which will have to be so classified as well. I actually find it fascinating in many ways.

Incidentally Dave may be thinking of the resolutions passed in New Mexico in 2007 and Illinois in 2009 which claimed Pluto was unfairly downgraded and should be reinstated. These resolutions are of course based on Astronomical knowledge and nothing to do with Clyde Tombaugh being born in Illinois and a long time resident of New Mexico.

Edited to add

In June 2008 Pluto WAS reclassified but this time as the eponymous 'prototype' of a new group of objects called 'plutoids' - objects which are largely spherical in shape, have a circular orbit and intersect the orbits of other bodies beyond the orbit of Neptune. At the time of the classification Eris was the only other Plutoid (Eris is bigger and further out than Pluto), but clearly the classification is one to which more bodies can be added.

Bernice
05-04-2011, 08:10
If I include Pluto in my birth chart, it makes a semi-sq to both Sun & Jupiter. The 3-planet configuation is within a couple of mins of exactitude. They also have a few minor (very close) aspects with personal planets. So, naturally I bothered with reading up on Pluto.

Can't say that my life experiences bear out the meanings that Pluto has been said to confer (if that's the right word).

......I'd love to have won a beauty competition, or have a super/brilliant brain. Not so keen on the negative takes - but then I'm not into psycho-stuff. Well over-rated nowadays.



Bee :)

NamasteIndia
05-04-2011, 14:28
Vedic astrology was not taking into account pluto, uranus and neptune
but there was always a debate between vedic astrologers and western astrologers about this 3 planets

dadsnook2000
05-04-2011, 21:06
Relative to the outer planets, the extraordinary volume of charts and writings that have been done over the last century is astounding. From all of this a body of correlation has emerged. While there is certainly debate about details of interpretation, the core meanings that can be associated with these newer planets have been established.

Over the past several decades the cutting edge of the exploratory wave has involved asteroids. A handful of them seem to be now the "norm" for inclusion in most charts.

Presently, that cutting edge of exploration involves the newer "planets" or dwarf planets that are out there beyond Neptune, and even the postulation of a giant gas planet four times the size of Jupiter is gathering momentum.

Size is not established yet as a key influencing factor. Enough physics research has been done to suggest that many logical rules may not apply. Nearby Suns such as Sirius can emit energy far exceeding our Sun's energy that reaches us. Every several months some other Sun or energy source floods us with energy in specific spectrums that exceed by thousands of times what we normally receive. The gravitational influences of nearby stars can be measured on our planet's movements. And, just to add confusion to the list many astrologers use hypothetical planets and make-believe Moons to their charts. Even the conjunction points of planets, as seen from Earth, appear to have a lasting imprint effect when one relates future transits to those points --- this can be a Sun-Moon eclipse or a Saturn-Pluto conjunction (representing terrorism) which relates to the 9-11 attack and other major attacks in the UK, Spain, the USS Cole, etc. There is too much out there to close our eyes and ignore.

As each of us becomes capable enough to work with these factors, I suggest that we should unleash our curiosity and explore. Its good for us, its good for astrology. Dave

Minderwiz
05-04-2011, 22:34
Since it's discovery in 1930 Pluto has progressed from 17 degrees 46 Cancer to 07 degrees 30 Capricorn, not yet half an orbit. This is the only period that we have DIRECT knowledge of Pluto and any possible Astrological effect. Of course it is objected that we can (and indeed do) correlate Pluto's previous positions with historical data. Any scientist knows that there is all the world of difference between Primary data - direct observation - and secondary data - the use of previously recorded data, not least because the latter has issues of accuracy and relevance. Unless we keep diaries over our life times, it's even difficult to recall accurately what happened 10 years ago, except for some events that stick in our mind but the rest is lost. All historical records are selective and incomplete, at best they may be used to corroborate current observations.

Now this of course does not disprove Pluto, it merely raises a fnoteof caution. in relation to retrospective analysis.

However even the volume of charts and writings, do not show much in the way of a development of Pluto's interepretation - it's Astrological meaning seems to have been established very quickly within the first 5 or 6 years. Brunhubner had produced a 'comprehensive' guide to the new planet as early as 1933 and in 1937 despite a note of caution Harrison defines Pluto as:

'A planet of action that signifies an attempt to throw off the accumulations that have resulted from the lethargy of Neptune and a desire to be free of the bonds the latter has imposed....It is therefore violent in its effects, which explains it's now known connection with illness and accidents. as well as its presence and import in the maps of musicians and the spiritually inclined on the one hand and the maps of criminals on the other. It is eruptive in nature and suggests freedom and explosive action'

Raymond Harrison, The Measure Of Life, 2nd edition. 1937

Clearly the volume of charts and writings had already reached a conclusion before 1937 and perhaps as early as 1933.

In part this was due to the hypothetical planets mentioned by Dave, one of which was called 'Pluto' and was advanced by Maurice Wemyss - Theosophist Astrologers had set their sights on 12 planets one ruler for each sign. They had even discussed which sign hypothetical Pluto ruled - some seeing Cancer, others seeing Scorpio.

There is though a more serious issue here and one which I don't see a solution to (at least in the short term). The Astrological Association of Great Britain claims that Astrology is a science, or at least a discipline, the rules of which can be taught to anyone who is then able to apply them.

However this is a great over simplification. Rules and procedures are indeed part of the process but a key part is the Astrologer him or herself. Astrology is an Art and the Artist skill is important but also his or her Weltanschaaung - philosophy and outlook on life.

Since the beginning of the twentieth Century the dominant Astrological orthodoxy has been based on Theosophical principles as extended and developed by principles based on the psychology of Jung. Uranus, Neptune and especially Pluto have been introduced into Astrology on the basis of these beliefs and indeed have in turn contributed to the establishment of these beliefs - to question Pluto is to question the Credo of modern Astrology and no orthodox Astrologer is going to do this. Eventually the orthodoxy will change and give way to a new one, that process may even have begun but in the meantime Pluto will still be essential to the mainstream Astrologer.

The key issue then, is not so much about the nature of Pluto but about your approach to and philosophy of Astrology. That Astrology can be still practiced without Pluto (or Uranus, Neptune, Chiron, etc) is shown by the work of Vedic Astrologers and Traditional Western Astrologers but neither of these will conform to the expectations of the Astrologer rooted in Jung and Rudhyar, etc. I don't have a problem with that and I certainly don't want to deny Dave or any other Astrologer their use of Pluto. I simply want them to be aware that there is Astrology without Pluto and that some caution about Pluto might not be a bad thing.

When it comes to the Chiron,asteroids, plutoids, Kuyper belt objects and indeed hypothetical planets, there is clearly two problems at least - the first is a Plutoesque rush to include them without proper consideration and the second, and even more important problem is the interrelationship of these objects both to the other established planets and to the process of Astrological interpretation. Simply bolting on new objects piecemeal is a recipe for confusion and eventual disaster, (and certainly the undermining of Astrology as a disciplined pursuit of knowledge). I think actually Dave agrees with me on that general point - a coherent methodology placed in the context of a clear philosophy is needed and there are certainly more than one way of achieving that aim.

Ronia
22-04-2011, 10:44
Hm, I'm a Scorpio and honestly, I relate much more to Pluto than to Mars. LOL

On a more serious note, I only recently found the strength to look on Astro.com the day when my father died (I was a child then) and I had double conjunction Sun over natal Pluto (8th house) and Pluto over natal Sun.

NamasteIndia
22-04-2011, 15:54
Energies of pluto does have effect on humans on the earth.

Minderwiz
22-04-2011, 21:12
Hm, I'm a Scorpio and honestly, I relate much more to Pluto than to Mars. LOL

On a more serious note, I only recently found the strength to look on Astro.com the day when my father died (I was a child then) and I had double conjunction Sun over natal Pluto (8th house) and Pluto over natal Sun.

Well Mars rulership of Scorpio does not rest on affinity (a modern error) it depends of the order of planets, and signs in relationship to the Sun in Leo and the Moon in Cancer - Mars squares the Moon from Aries and the Sun from Scorpio - which is why it is seen as the Lesser Malefic or why the square is seen to be a hard aspect, with something of the nature of Mars. Whether or not Pluto has any affinity to Scorpio has nothing to do with rulership.


It's difficult to comment on your second point as I don't have the chart. However if you were a child at the time, then you were born with your natal Sun conjunct or near conjunct to Pluto. It seems that your father died around the time of your birthday (and I can well understand the upset that caused, as my father died shortly after my own birthday and I was an adult but still found the whole experience traumatic).

How close are the conjunctions?

Ronia
23-04-2011, 02:12
No, my natal Pluto is about 20 degrees from my Sun/Uranus natal conjunction, Pluto in the 8th but close to the cusp with the 9th, the other two in the 9th house.

My father died when I was a teen although in the beginning of these teen years, I checked the chart again now, the transiting Sun is about 4 degrees from natal Pluto, and is accompanied by transiting Moon and Mars, all three together are on top of the natal Pluto in the 8th.

The natal Pluto is a bit further, looks like 7-8 degrees from the natal Sun/Uranus conjunction in the 9th.

I use the placidus house system on Astrodienst, if that matters.

The other planets were: transiting Saturn, Uranus conjunct in the 12th (empty house), opposing transiting Jupiter/Chiron in the 6th (no interaction with natal planets here either).

siren85
23-04-2011, 02:59
Even though astronomers want to de-classify Pluto as a planet, that doesn't take away from its astrological significance. It is still one of strongest planets in astrology, despite its size; anyone who has gone through a Pluto transit will tell you this. When transit Pluto recently conjuncted my natal Venus/Mars, it was one of the most intense, difficult, and painful periods of my life. A Pluto transit will often be felt more intensely than any other transit. An astrologer once likened it to 'getting a root canal without novacaine'. It is working hard to get all of those negative, unhealthy behavior patterns out of you so you can transform, be reborn, and move on with your life. Very intense, quick change... may be incredibably painful at the time, but no other transit will transform you more in the end.

Btw, I have natal Pluto conjunct my Scorpio Ascendant, so I have always felt Pluto's energy strongly in my life. Constant transforming, identity crisis', dying and being reborn... its exhausting! :|

Minderwiz
23-04-2011, 06:33
.My father died when I was a teen although in the beginning of these teen years, I checked the chart again now, the transiting Sun is about 4 degrees from natal Pluto, and is accompanied by transiting Moon and Mars, all three together are on top of the natal Pluto in the 8th.

The natal Pluto is a bit further, looks like 7-8 degrees from the natal Sun/Uranus conjunction in the 9th.



Well you do said 'child' in the previous post so I dangerously assumed you were around 10 at most and probably younger. However 4 degrees, let alone 7-8 degrees, is too wide an orb to use for a Pluto conjunction. Pluto takes 246 years to complete a zodiacal transit, that's an average of just over 8 months per degree. A separation of 4 degrees equates to 2 years 8 months - any aspect that will not perfect for another two and a half years cannot really be treated as relevant (unless you are a Pluto addict). Clearly 7-8 degrees is around 5 years - such a range just can't be taken as relevant for the events on one particular day or one particular month. even one particular year falls outside both of your ranges.

Now I've taken averages there and clearly there must be times when Pluto is moving faster than average and is not interrupted by retrogade periods and it's times faster in Scorpio than it is in Taurus (because of its exaggerated orbit) Even so it takes 11 years to move through Scorpio, so 4 degrees there equates to more than a year.


For an event such as this, I'd expect more than simple transit evidence any way - now without the chart I can't identify that and indeed I'd probably want your chart and your father's.

It is still one of strongest planets in astrology, despite its size; anyone who has gone through a Pluto transit will tell you this.

Well I've experienced a number of Pluto transits in 63 years, including conjunctions to Saturn, Ascendant, Sun, Mercury, Venus, Jupiter, Neptune, Chiron, and squares to Moon, Mars and Uranus and to be honest NONE of them struck me as any where near the intensity of a Saturn or Mars transit - but as I said above, transits are a fairly weak Astrological event and I'd want to look for more substantial evidence.

Now I'm not saying that I won't find people who claim that they have not had tough Pluto transits (though whether Pluto is the only factor or even a factor at all requires a close examination) but to claim that everyone who has had a Pluto transit will be hit hard is just not the case. My point is that we need a proper investigation not simply the reassertion of modern 'myths' as fact. If events can be explained without reference to Pluto then it calls into question whether Pluto has Astrological significance - that is the test and the investigation that needs to be carried out and I'm willing to accept that such an investigation might well show some clear Pluto effect - but at least that would give hard supportive evidence and would advance Astrology.

Ronia
23-04-2011, 08:18
Ah, I learned something again, thank you! Yes, of course, it takes so long for Pluto to move, I had completely forgotten this. Not that I'm any astrologer, just trying to learn and catch a hint here and there. When I saw this double placement I thought Sun-male authority and Pluto-death among the other things, so I connected both things. But yes, it would be true for years!

I've been through a couple of Pluto transits too. It's currently transiting my 12th house and has been there for too long! There are years when I don't feel it but there are times when it's tough but as Minderwiz said, it's usually triggered by an additional element. For example, Saturn who is my chart ruler is currently conjunct both Pluto and Mercury in my 8th house and with transiting Pluto in the 12th I've been through hell of a cleaning at corners of my mind I wish I had never visited again. :(

At the same time, with the fastest planets who enter configurations with Pluto at least once a year, I haven't noticed any significant changes. It's the heavier ones, the slower that cause me to change and dig deep.

siren85
23-04-2011, 10:20
Well I've experienced a number of Pluto transits in 63 years, including conjunctions to Saturn, Ascendant, Sun, Mercury, Venus, Jupiter, Neptune, Chiron, and squares to Moon, Mars and Uranus and to be honest NONE of them struck me as any where near the intensity of a Saturn or Mars transit - but as I said above, transits are a fairly weak Astrological event and I'd want to look for more substantial evidence.

Now I'm not saying that I won't find people who claim that they have not had tough Pluto transits (though whether Pluto is the only factor or even a factor at all requires a close examination) but to claim that everyone who has had a Pluto transit will be hit hard is just not the case. My point is that we need a proper investigation not simply the reassertion of modern 'myths' as fact. If events can be explained without reference to Pluto then it calls into question whether Pluto has Astrological significance - that is the test and the investigation that needs to be carried out and I'm willing to accept that such an investigation might well show some clear Pluto effect - but at least that would give hard supportive evidence and would advance Astrology.

Ok, but I am not the only one saying this. Many, many astrologers including Stephen Forrest, Robert Hand, Donna Cunningham, Liz Greene, ect. have talked about the intensity of Pluto in astrology and in transits. So it goes the other way too... while YOU personally may believe Saturn transits are stronger for you, Pluto transits are stronger for alot of people as well. If you have a particular theme that strongly figures in your chart, say if pisces or neptune is strong, then you may tend to feel neptune transits more strongly because you are more accustomed to that energy. But a general consensus of many astrologers is that pluto transits are usually felt strongly in one way or another.

DevilishAngel
23-04-2011, 13:14
Wow Pluto I can definitely see its affect in many birth charts.

dadsnook2000
23-04-2011, 14:02
My experience has indicated that any one planet may or may not be important or even an influence in a given chart. My natal Pluto has no direct aspect relationship to the other planets. I don't seem to find Pluto transits leaving any footprints on my back.

On the other hand, I clearly remember several Saturn transits and the periods of time following them. But, Saturn is part of a significant complex in my chart. Everyone's chart is different, everyone interacts with their planets in different ways.

As Minderwiz had noted, simplicity and clarity of practice depends upon having a cohesive approach to the tools you choose and the manner in which you use them. That comes from either experience or from following the experience of another whom you admire and wish to follow. I advocate getting your own experience and finding what works best for you. Forget about the science, go for the experience. Read, read, read. Do charts, more charts and many more charts. Today, I have done about 30. All for Alan Turing, the englishman who broke the Enigma code machine used by the Germans in World War II. After the war he was badly treated and committed suicide. The country owed him an immense debt of gratitude for his brilliant work. He received an apology a couple of years ago and now has a modest monument erected to honor his life's work in both the war effort and in the years following. Even the computers we use today are based on his mathematical work. Dave

Minderwiz
23-04-2011, 18:33
Oddly enough, Pluto has major significance for the philosophy of Astrology. Before the seventeenth century, the basis of Astrology was clear and virtually universally agreed. A body gained Astrological significance through three qualities - firstly its visibility, (much of the language of Astrology is still based on 'seeing' or 'viewing' - such as the continued use of the term 'aspect');secondly on the extent to which it moves (planets are generally taken as more significant than 'fixed' stars - though the tradition gives much more importance to fixed stars than the modern approach) and lastly brightness or luminosity - The Sun and Moon as the brightest visible bodies are the most important, followed by Venus and Jupiter and then Mars, Saturn and Mercury. Similarly the brightest stars on or near the ecliptic are seen as more important than dim stars. This philosophy also encompassed meteors and comets, seen as highly, if only temporarily, important bodies.

Now with the development of the telescope, this philosophy came to be challenged. Galileo's discovery of the moon's of Jupiter was the first revelation that there were bodies which existed but were not visible with the naked eye - there was more to creation than what we could see unaided.

The identification of Uranus as a planet (rather than a very dim star, which had occasionally been seen even in classical times) added an eighth planet, less than 100 years later there was a ninth, in Neptune (but requiring a more powerful telescope in order to see it and never visible to the naked eye).

Now both Uranus and Neptune are gas giants, so one might begin to amend the philosophy of Astrology by allowing for an additional force - gravity - and try and blend in with Newtonian (and later Einsteinian) physics.

But Pluto is not a gas giant - it's much, much smaller even in its original grossly overestimated size it was only considered about the same size as Earth. On latest data, Pluto is just over two thirds the size of Mercury and has a minimum distance from Earth of 4.28 BILLION km, compared to Mercury's 77.3 MILLION km - so on the basis of gravitational force Pluto is insignificant compared to Mercury. BUT, as Dave has posted earlier - many Astrologers will argue that size (and presumably distance) doesn't matter. But if that is the case - what does?

The Astronomical misclassification of Pluto, delayed the recognition and understanding of our nature of the solar system by 50 years - Astronomers now recognise that Pluto was the first of a new type of body - now referred to as plutoids. Pluto has caused Astronomers to rethink their knowledge and understanding.

In the same way, I think that Astrologers need to rethink - simply asserting that Pluto is important is not enough - we need a reason why. The importance lies not just for Pluto but for a host of other bodies that are continually being identified and categorised. Why is Pluto more important than Charon or Eris or any of the other bodies out there? There may be a reason for it's importance and we really do need to look. If size and distance don't matter, then how can we say that Pluto has a major effect - the effects (if real) might be down to bodies that we as yet don't know about or indeed to specks of cosmic dust.

Is human awareness a factor? Are the intense effects of Pluto transits referred to by siren85 may be some kind of psychosomatic effect - people expect an intense transit and so they get one - but no less 'real' for them.

Is it speed - the slower the pace the greater the effect, irrespective of size and distance - in which case why are the 'fixed' stars (which actually move 1 degree per 72 years, as seen from Earth) even more powerful - especially when there are far more of them than plutoids.

Or do we simply say, we don't know but we'll take it as a fact because that's our current Astrological view. Indeed in his book on Sports Astrology the traditional Astrologer, John Frawley, actually reports a Pluto effect - he says he doesn't know why it should happen because he can't find it in other branches of Astrology but that he accepts it for practical purposes.

That might practically work but it opens the door to chaos - any and every body discovered out in the Kuyper Belt must have an equal claim to such importance and there are hundreds if not thousands of them.

So why is Pluto more important than Mercury and why is Pluto more important than Eris? - The answers to both may be in Pluto's favour but how do we proceed?

NamasteIndia
23-04-2011, 18:53
Thats very important information Minderwiz about Pluto
Vedic astrology never counts pluto.
Maybe the Rishi's never felt its important.

Presently Pluto is transiting my Ascendant alongwith Rahu and both these planets are also in 10th house of my career...my career as come to a standstill during this transit.

Bernice
23-04-2011, 19:27
Minderwz: ".....How do we proceed?"

I would think, lots of 'intense' re-assessment of charts which are claimed to show that Pluto was the principal factor of some Important or Traumatic, Dramatic, event :)

Having lived through a rather traumactic & intense 'event' which lasted for a number of years (including an other-worldy event/experience), and having a closely aspected Pluto to personal planets (plus Jupiter) in the birth chart, all progressions & transits involving Pluto were meticulously and thoroughly examined for that period of time.

Final assessment = Saturn, Uranus and Mars plus transit 'hits' from Moon & Mercury, were the most prominent configurations. Pluto was lurking as a natal connection but to no noticable effect as was given in the various astro. books of that time.

But without a goodly number of charts and events to examine (a Plutonian archive of records), I don't think there can be a conclusive black & white confirmation that Pluto does, or doesn't have, the effects that it is currently belived to impart.


Bee :)

Minderwiz
24-04-2011, 04:53
I was very much thinking on those lines Bee, but I have now recognised a secondary problem. How do we establish whether there is or is not a Pluto effect which will be widely accepted as being a definitive study.

Such an investigation might require representatives from most if not all branches of Astrology, and there are many, many of them. For example, should the Pluto effect be directly observable - that is used to predict an observable event? Now those who pursue a psychological approach might argue that the effect is an internal one - that is it shows up in someone's feelings, moods and perceptions. Both are valid points of view but might not both command equal acceptance

And how do we agree on what is an acceptable alternative explanation? Must the alternative be the same planet or combination of planets or other astrological features? Must they all come from the same 'school' - for example must they all be traditional explanations, or all involve asteroids, or centaurs? And even if there is an alternative explanation every time, does that invalidate Pluto? Dave and I often come to very similar conclusions from a chart, using very different techniques. All that I can say is that it is perfectly possible to do valid and meaningful (and accurate) Astrology without using Pluto but that certainly isn't sufficient to get Dave or others to ditch Pluto LOL.

Bernice
24-04-2011, 19:08
I wonder if a small start could be made by taking some charts that claim Pluto is prominent in events (inner & outer). Then examining the progressions/transits etc. without Pluto? As you and others have said, similar interpretations are often given by astrologers who are using different approaches. But if (IF) the application of different methods all ignore Pluto, and still have similar results.......

I have wondered (like you) that if a person chooses to include some obscure or fictional celestial body, it becomes like a personal/individual 'extra sense' that they can tune into. It's done with cards, which were orginally for gaming.


Bee :)

siren85
27-04-2011, 06:44
In the same way, I think that Astrologers need to rethink - simply asserting that Pluto is important is not enough - we need a reason why. The importance lies not just for Pluto but for a host of other bodies that are continually being identified and categorised. Why is Pluto more important than Charon or Eris or any of the other bodies out there? There may be a reason for it's importance and we really do need to look. If size and distance don't matter, then how can we say that Pluto has a major effect - the effects (if real) might be down to bodies that we as yet don't know about or indeed to specks of cosmic dust.

Is human awareness a factor? Are the intense effects of Pluto transits referred to by siren85 may be some kind of psychosomatic effect - people expect an intense transit and so they get one - but no less 'real' for them.

It is, I believe, because human consciousness is now growing and changing at a rapid rate; it needs to. We discovered pluto exactly when we were ready to, and when we were ready to learn its lessons. We are taking an evolutionary leap as human beings. Pluto's discovery coincided with the invention of the atomic bomb, world war II, the birth of psychology/psychoanalysis, and the domination and infestation of the mafia (the 'underworld') in American society - all scorpio/plutonic themes.

Here is what Edgar Cayce had to say about Pluto and its significance in astrology and human evolution:

This as we find it's entirely amiss from what we might call a physical expression - but, these are a development that is occuring in the universe - Pluto. Its influence is gradually GROWING, and thus is one of those influences that are to be as a demonstrative activity in the future affairs or developments of man towards the spiritual-minded influences, or those influences outside of himself. Within the next hundred to two hundred years, there may be a great deal of influence [of pluto] upon the ascendancy of man; for its closest to those of the activities of upon the earth, to be sure, and is a DEVELOPING influence, and not one already established. (Reading 1100-027)

Bernice
27-04-2011, 19:54
Perhaps when a new body is discovered and announced to the world at large, it becomes a part of human consciousness - well, humans like astrologers, astronomers especially. Then the media kicks in with books, and even films, which include reference to the body. This then serves to broadcast the information.

We humans love to Label things. We percieve a 'thing' and then define it further by naming it :) Hence = we claim it and embrace it as another factor of 'existence' (Whether or not it applies to everyone/everything in existence!)


Bee :)

Minderwiz
27-04-2011, 23:02
It is, I believe, because human consciousness is now growing and changing at a rapid rate; it needs to. We discovered pluto exactly when we were ready to, and when we were ready to learn its lessons. We are taking an evolutionary leap as human beings. Pluto's discovery coincided with the invention of the atomic bomb, world war II, the birth of psychology/psychoanalysis, and the domination and infestation of the mafia (the 'underworld') in American society - all scorpio/plutonic themes.

Well none of the above are indicators of human spiritual growth and development - quite the reverse I would have thought. Indeed I don't see any evidence at all for ANY such growth and development. Humanity may becoming more technologically advanced but a moment's reflection on the last 100 years, indicates that it is increasingly being used to kill, maim and destroy other humans.

I realise that Theosophist ideology is based on the notion of such progress and that they saw the outer planets as evidence but it's not enough to just make assertions, or see things in a crystal ball (as Leo claims he did in relation to Neptune) you need to base developments on sound Astrological principles.

I don't want to decry Cayce. I'm married to a psychic, but psychic perception needs to be validated and tested through experience and observation, otherwise it is of little value.

siren85
28-04-2011, 02:40
Well none of the above are indicators of human spiritual growth and development - quite the reverse I would have thought. Indeed I don't see any evidence at all for ANY such growth and development. Humanity may becoming more technologically advanced but a moment's reflection on the last 100 years, indicates that it is increasingly being used to kill, maim and destroy other humans.


ummm.... haven't you ever heard of the saying "you have to get through hell before you can reach heaven".... that is Pluto (hades). It is all about destruction/death before rebirth.... its symbol, like scorpio, is the phoenix... being burned and rising from the ashes. Even people in psycotherapy will tell you that before there is any healing, you have to first experience and relive the pain in an intense way before you are able to release it and heal. It is called a 'healing crisis', and pluto transits often precipitate these. Same thing with death and traumatic experiences... you have to first experience the grief and pain intensely before you are able to move on and be 'reborn'. There is also a saying that "pain is the great motivator"... it inspires you to change, to become stronger, or best of all, to find God.

Minderwiz
28-04-2011, 03:45
ummm.... haven't you ever heard of the saying "you have to get through hell before you can reach heaven".... that is Pluto (hades). It is all about destruction/death before rebirth.... its symbol, like scorpio, is the phoenix... being burned and rising from the ashes. Even people in psycotherapy will tell you that before there is any healing, you have to first experience and relive the pain in an intense way before you are able to release it and heal. It is called a 'healing crisis', and pluto transits often precipitate these. Same thing with death and traumatic experiences... you have to first experience the grief and pain intensely before you are able to move on and be 'reborn'. There is also a saying that "pain is the great motivator"... it inspires you to change, to become stronger, or best of all, to find God.

BTW: also wanted to add the idea of the 'apocalypse'... death, destruction, and suffering of mankind before the Kingdom of Heaven is able to take place on Earth. Cayce also mentions this in his readings.... wars, natural disasters, famines taking place on earth before the kingdom of heaven is able to be realized, along with a 1,000 year reign of peace. There has to be a sweeping away of the old/negative in order to bring about the new. Relates to the Judgement card, which correlates to Pluto.

And 'the darkest hour is just before dawn'

You have a lot of assertions in this statement- and you have a perfect right to believe in the 'progress' theory of human development, but you need to remember that belief is not fact, nor does it, of itself, validate anything.

Death is not necessarily followed by resurrection

Healing crises can end in death

The symbol of Scorpio is the Scorpion - the Phoenix is associated with the Sun and Scorpio has never been associated with resurrection or even death, it has been associated with the sex organs, with diseases of the aforementioned, with stagnant pools and 'subtle and deceitful men'.

Resurrection is associated with the Sun too (as you might expect from it's rulership of the Phoenix and the immolation involved).

Now I can supply chapter and verse for those associations, and if you're going to change them, then you need to supply clear reasons why (simply saying that as Pluto wasn't known they're the best that could be done by undeveloped humans is not enough).

I can see why the apocalypse appeals, but it's a dangerous doctrine, because it suggests that all the believers need to do is start a war to destroy the 'non-believers' in order to bring about the believed Kingdom of God - can you be so sure that the consequent death and destruction are justified??

Both Saint Augustine and Thomas Hobbes believe that man, left to himself will create an undesirable society - the 'war of all against all' and 'the life of man nasty, brutish and short' as Hobbes put it. For Augustine the Church is necessary to contain man's sinful nature, for Hobbes an all powerful Sovereign. Neither of these views are as attractive as Cayce's vision but would you risk the apocalypse over it?

BTW irrespective of the outcome of a debate over the above (and I have no firm belief that Augustine and Hobbes were right, by any means) that the discovery of Pluto is in any way connected to the New Age, is an assertion and if it is to become more, there needs to be hard evidence for it.

siren85
28-04-2011, 04:56
yes, I know that a healing crisis can also result in death and destruction, not always a resurrection. humans have free will, and so can rise to the difficulties and challenges that they are faced with, or crumble because of them. there just as many people who become stronger and more enlightened after the loss or death of a loved one, as there are people who become bitter and hard-hearted; angry at the world and at god. Free will also applies to the end days and the destiny of humankind.... we can become more enlightened and spiritual on our own and possibly avoid catastrophe, or the world can simply denegrate into destruction and chaos. Its up to us. cayce, as well as the mayans, hinted at this... that its possible for humankind to avoid catastrophe and annihilation. I'm not some apocalypse-freak... I'm not 100% sure if it will even happen... no one does. so whatever. I like to subscribe to the idea that this 'apocalyopse' is symbolic and more takes place within us on a spiritual level.

This death/rebirth concept relates to transits of the outer planets as well... if we are not changing by ourselves and remain stuck in our old, outworn ways, then a transit or outside events will then FORCE this change upon us... change is either gradual and slow, or quick and destructive (like the tower).

I was talking about the phoenix as the most POSITIVE expression of scorpio/pluto... of course there are negative aspects to every sign; the scorpion being the more negative side of scorpio... it poisons anyone who comes near or represents the smallest threat, in turn killing itself.

btw, I am not just pulling all of this stuff out of my ass... much of it is information that I have gleaned from reading several books on the topic of Pluto by well-renowned astrologers.... namely The Book of Pluto by Steven Forrest, Pluto: The Evolutionary Journey of the Soul by Jeff Green, and Healing Pluto Problems by Donna Cunningham. If you wish to learn more about the significance of Pluto in astrology, I recommend that you pick up a couple copies of these books; they are very eye-opening.

also to add, exactly what kind of "hard evidence" are you looking for? Is there really any 'hard evidence' at all when talking about spiritual aspects such as astrology, tarot, religion, ect? no.... evidence is more related to science and things that are proveable, not particuarly spiritual matters.

Bernice
28-04-2011, 06:13
Hi Siren85,

It's clear you've taken the new age ideas and assertions to heart. I have to agree that they were (and for some, still are) fascinating. Nostradamus was in there somewhere as well if I remember correctly.

However, lots of celestial bodies have been discovered across the centuries, some far more prominent than Pluto, so why should Pluto be singled out as the pre-eminent 'Important Stage of Human Consciousness'?

Considering that it was misclassified as a 'planet', perhaps the principal message to human kind is that we are still prone to making mistakes.

While each and every person is at liberty to percieve, experience, and defend their viewpoint, if it cannot be supported by objective and conclusive evidence it has no concrete realistic validity.

Siren85: exactly what kind of "hard evidence" are you looking for? Is there really any 'hard evidence' at all when talking about spiritual aspects such as astrology, tarot, religion, ect? no.... evidence is more related to science and things that are proveable, not particuarly spiritual matters.
My bold above.

Did you mean to say, "spiritual aspects of such as astrology, tarot, religion, ect"?

One could quite truthfully say that everything is Spiritual. It's a much bandied about word that a great many persons have cashed in on, and are still doing so. Astrology, mother of astronomy, is not a 'spiritual' subject, it was and is a very factual pursuit. The evidence is visible in the sky, and deep space via telescope. Pluto is actually there - the evidence is that it can be seen. If it imparts or conveys any 'influence' upon the life-forms on this planet, it needs to be properly assessed.


Bee :)

siren85
28-04-2011, 10:37
I didn't mean it in that sense.... I was simply responding to her question, if Pluto is in any way connected to the New Age, is an assertion and if it is to become more, there needs to be hard evidence for it. I was saying, how can there indeed be any proof or hard evidence for ANY spiritual matter? including tarot, astrology, religion, psychic visions/abilities, near-death experiences, ect. and imo, astrology does deal primarily with spirituality and the soul. it is not a 'proveable' science like biology or physics is, is what I meant to say. yes, astrology, in its basic form, is mathematical... but nowadays, just purely the mathematical principles of planets and signs are attributed to ASTRONOMY. astrology goes so much further than that, and takes into account the emotional, intellectual, and spiritual aspects of the chart.

DevilishAngel
28-04-2011, 10:43
Let me get this straight. This is about thinking that Pluto has no affect in an astrological chart????

siren85
28-04-2011, 11:06
I really like what Jeff Green has to say about pluto and 'journeying into hell' in his book Pluto: The Evolutionary journey of the soul. He says that Pluto actually represents the Soul itself in astrology. anyway, I thought I'd post some of it here, as I think it applies to what we have been discussing here about cataclysmic change and the death/rebirth principle:


"75-80% of our behavior is conditioned by unconcsious forces that are tied to past patterns in identity association, and these patterns are linked to the cumulative evolutionary forces that are rooted in our desires. These past patterns are linked to our unconscious emotional security needs; we automatically gravitate to old patterns of behavior because they are what we already are. There is a reliance upon them. The reliance and natural gravitation to these old patterns create blocks to further growth and evolution; we stagnate as a result. The evolutionary force of the Soul induces pressure to elimate and transform these old patterns into new patterns. This transitional process between the old and the new explains many of the apparently negative behavioral characteristics associated with Pluto.

The past has a reason for being, just as the present and future have a reason for being. The past applies to or conditions the present and future. The transitional process between the past and the future (security vs insecurity) can create a variety of behavioral 'problems'. Because the present or future (necessary changes, evolution) can be viewed as threatening to our existing security and reality (past), we can resist the evolutionary force operating in life. This resistance can create potential dams that thwart or block the natural evolutionary flow that promotes the state of continual change and evolution. These dams of resistance create the phenomena of a cataclysmic event that has the effect of removing the dam so that the natural flow can continue. From a psychological point of view, these dams of resistance can create compulsions, obsessions, and complexes. It can lead to anger, fear, or in extreme cases rage if the individual experiences emotional shocks or forced removals of something (ie, a person or relationship) from his or her life. The individual might be angry that it was 'out of one's control'. Rarely would the individual understand that the responsibility for this experience originated from within due to evolutionary or karmic necessity. As a result, the individual could turn vindictive, mean, or cruel in an attempt to 'get back' at whatever caused the emotional pain. The individual could experience a personal 'hell' as he or she submerged into the deepest recesses of the unconscious, and experiencing deep emotional and security needs that are rooted in the past... the famous underworld of Pluto.

Down the road, after the immediacy of the event was over, not only would there be an evolutionary leap, but also perspective. The individual would be "reborn" with a new level of consciousness or awareness. The entire approach to relationships and other people could be radically altered or changed. By plunging into "hell" abd experiencing a kind of death, the person evolved into his or her own "heaven" once the perspective gained in hindsight occured. Pluto symbolizes death, rebirth, metamorphosis, transformation, and regeneration. These processes manifest because of limitations or stagnations that are rooted in our old emotional and security patterns based upon our evolutionary past.

(On Transits) The Pluto transit functions the very same way for all of us. It brings into the light deep subconscious or unconscious emotional, intellectual, physical, or spiritual patterns that have been dictating and controlling our behavior and apporach to life. Even though this process can be very painful and bleak for some, the ultimate benefit is obvious becaue of the growth that will occur once these patterns and dynamics are changed or elimated. In this way, evolution occurs.

Bernice
28-04-2011, 17:49
Siren85: ....and imo, astrology does deal primarily with spirituality and the soul. No problem with personal opinion. Also no problem with having a personal spiritual viewpoint about life, or the whole of existence either. I've had one of those for a long, long time.

But from an Astrology stand-point, Pluto needs to be properly assessed for it's effects, if any, due to the fact that for one thing, it has not been observed throughout it's full orbit.

The last century blossomed with all things esoteric and many 'traditional' areas underwent a re-vamp. In some cases this completely over-rode traditions, to the detriment of understandings that have been tried & tested over the centuries. One such area is the Elements. The 1900s saw a complete change in how they are understood and applied. And the original tarot cards were superimposed with meanings (and pip images) for a specific esoteric system.


DevilishAngel, the OPs actual enquiry is;

"My sons geography book says that Pluto is no longer a planet
Strange because earlier it was and very important part of astrology too.
And it had its effects like sudden combustion wherever it was placed in a chart.

I know of some cases where pluto in 4th house caused sudden heart attacks.
My pluto is in 10th house of career which gave me a roller coaster ride with career....

so what do you'll feel is pluto still a planet?"

So the short answer is sorry, no. It does not meet the definition of a planet.

But it recieved such a lot of attention, especially from Astrologers with a psychological and theosophical viewpoint, that its' possible effects were almost immediately defined, in a variey of ways :) that had little to do with careful and objective observation.


Bottom line is:
They 'jumped the gun' when it was first discovered, and then again in the rush to define what it might mean to life on Earth.


Bee :)

dadsnook2000
28-04-2011, 21:15
This issue of Pluto is tiresome in that it has been addressed in these terms so many times over the last few decades. Yet, it is all part of a discussion that we each need to participate in as a means of coming to personal (if temporary) conclusions about how to deal with it in the charts we study.

As for "we haven't seen it pass through a full orbit" --- that statement strikes me as shortsighted. We haven't even seen Eris pass through a full "sign" yet but we are already starting to fill in some of it's general meanings in a chart. How are these things done?

One approach is for astrologers to start by identifying those charts where the planet or body in question is either conjunct the Ascendant or the Sun. Then those charts are studied for common meanings.

A second approach is to assess the general orbital characteristics as well as the place (and chart) where it was discovered, all compared to the overall nature of the world condition at the time of its discovery. All of these assessments together can suggest some aspects of interpretational meaning. Even fixed stars may be thrown into the mix along with black holes, etc. Phillip Sedgwick has done some interesting work in these areas.

The third approach is to look at history and how it aligns with the planet's actual or approximate positions and interactions with other planets. This approach has value. One has only to read Psyche and Cosmos, by Richard Tarnas, to see how history can be used to start filling in the meanings associated with a planet.

When we (the larger astrological community) can put all of this together we can start to test the general and specific meanings in our charts. Is this always dependable, always leading to a correct assessment? No. Look at Chiron as an example and how it started out as "a bridge between Saturn and Uranus to lead us into a new path to social change and direction" and how it is now generally (but not universally) seen in some form of being a "wounded healer" type of entity.

Other examples of how "naming" and "meaning" can be applied and successfully used over a few decades can be found in the encyclopedic work of Martha Lang-Wescott (a long-time friend of mine) who has provided exquisite and workable interpretations of asteroids located at the angles of charts. When I see work of this nature I find it ridiculous to claim that nothing can be said about a body until it has completed a full orbit.

Just my thoughts. Dave

Minderwiz
29-04-2011, 01:48
This issue of Pluto is tiresome in that it has been addressed in these terms so many times over the last few decades.

Totally agree it's becoming tiresome, but the debate on the efficacy of Pluto is only 20 years old - it was accepted unquestioningly from the 1930s to the 1990s. However it seems to me that the arguments put forward against Pluto do not really crack the wall of faith of its adherents. The most that can be done is to point out the flaws in arguments and that Astrology can be practiced without it.


One approach is for astrologers to start by identifying those charts where the planet or body in question is either conjunct the Ascendant or the Sun. Then those charts are studied for common meanings.

Well those common meanings would have to be independent of Pluto, or the process is tautological - the charts have common meanings because we have assigned these meanings to Pluto -and if the meanings are independent of Pluto, how can any meaning be inferred to it?

A second approach is to assess the general orbital characteristics as well as the place (and chart) where it was discovered, all compared to the overall nature of the world condition at the time of its discovery. All of these assessments together can suggest some aspects of interpretational meaning. Even fixed stars may be thrown into the mix along with black holes, etc. Phillip Sedgwick has done some interesting work in these areas.

This is a variant of the idea - 'cometh the hour, cometh the planet' - usually held by people who have preconceptions as to meaning - which was very much in evidence in the case of Pluto. The problem is that the chart is really irrelevant - for the same reasons as above - A chart can only be interpreted using planetary meanings, so if a planet is newly discovered how can it have any meaning within the discovery chart - unless that meaning has already been assigned to it. In the case of Pluto's discovery it was half way through the twelfth house and it's only close aspect was a square to the Part of Fortune - Pluto=bad luck?

A Discovery Chart is an event chart - it tells us something about the event - the expectations of those involved, the background to the discovery, the difficulty or not of the process of discovery,possibly the impact of the discovery, etc - but it tells us nothing of the intrinsic nature of the thing discovered, especially if the 'thing discovered' is claimed to have Astrological properties.

The third approach is to look at history and how it aligns with the planet's actual or approximate positions and interactions with other planets. This approach has value. One has only to read Psyche and Cosmos, by Richard Tarnas, to see how history can be used to start filling in the meanings associated with a planet.

Well this assumes we have accurate knowledge of history (which itself is a dubious claim - at very, very best we have a fair knowledge of the political history of Europe and the USA has anyone to your knowledge used this approach with any other world region? And if our knowledge of political history was accurate, how could we infer to individuals?

However the telling word is 'approximate' in this section - at best the historical evidence is an approximation based on incomplete secondary data

we (the larger astrological community) can put all of this together we can start to test the general and specific meanings in our charts. Is this always dependable, always leading to a correct assessment? No. Look at Chiron as an example and how it started out as "a bridge between Saturn and Uranus to lead us into a new path to social change and direction" and how it is now generally (but not universally) seen in some form of being a "wounded healer" type of entity.

Well I suppose traditional Astrologers don't qualify as part of 'the larger astrological community' but you are quite right - this approach can get things seriously wrong



Other examples of how "naming" and "meaning" can be applied and successfully used over a few decades can be found in the encyclopedic work of Martha Lang-Wescott (a long-time friend of mine) who has provided exquisite and workable interpretations of asteroids located at the angles of charts. When I see work of this nature I find it ridiculous to claim that nothing can be said about a body until it has completed a full orbit.

Just my thoughts. Dave

I know it's ridiculous but how do you infer meaning to a body that you only know exists, simply because it is angular. Firstly you have made a value judgement that it must have meaning by including it in a chart and secondly, you have engineered a situation where it is angular - what about all the charts where it isn't angular, does it still carry the same meaning? I repeat, inferring meaning because of chart position is bad practice - with such an approach, It would be possible to demostrate that all the characteristics attributed to Pluto (or any other planet) actually belong to several minor asteroids - as meaning can only be shuffled about - no new meanings, suddenly come into existence because a planet is discovered. We have the perfect symbol of nuclear power in Astrology and it has been known for all of human history - The Sun is a massive fusion device, it has far more claim to rule atomics than a miniscule rock lost in space (or even Pluto) :)

Incidentally in the Pluto discovery chart, Vesta is conjunct the Ascendant (within 19 minutes), and in opposition to the Dark Moon (separation of just over 3 degrees) If we followed your line of reasoning, we should attribute all of Pluto's characteristics to either Vesta or to the Vesta/Dark Moon opposition because both of these are angular and Pluto is not

As an antidote to Tarnas try reading the Skyscript interview with Ben Dykes (also a Professor)

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/bdykes.html

OK let's bury Pluto rather than praise it and move on to something more interesting LOL

dadsnook2000
29-04-2011, 04:31
This kind of opinion trading doesn't seem to be productive in terms of helping early-study or more advanced astrological practitioners decide what is right and what might not be right about determination of a planet's meaning in astrology.

For those interested in a more comprehensive approach to this "it is, it isn't" type of discussion, I would suggest a visit to the following site.

Occam's Razor | forum: How and Why Astrology Works | qualitative methods in Astrology. These initial posts were written by Juan Revilla, one of astrology's primary researchers and thinkers, and author of RIYAL software.

These postings will discuss one example in particular as a basis for showing how a small distant object with an orbital period of over 700 years can be studied and "meanings" gradually developed for it. In any case, the nature of the study and qualitative process used is very helpful to the serious astrologer --- far more so than the foolish statistical studies that we see so many indulge in without clear results. Dave

Minderwiz
29-04-2011, 06:12
This kind of opinion trading doesn't seem to be productive in terms of helping early-study or more advanced astrological practitioners decide what is right and what might not be right about determination of a planet's meaning in astrology.

Well I wasn't advancing any opinions, I was asking how you can infer the properties of a newly discovered planet either from a discovery chart (which just refers to the event) or from it's position in the chart - unless you have a preconceived notion of what the planet means.

New and even advanced students need to think about the foundations of Astrology and it's approach. I fully recognise that it's an axiom that Pluto is important for many modern Astrologers - all that I'm doing is trying to show that an axiom is not fact - it's a base assumption - also axioms are incapable of proof, no matter what area they are in, so we need to be clear as Astrologers that we've signed up for a particular philosophical viewpoint but not state it as undisputed fact.

I think the Ben Dykes interview really is essential reading, to show that Astrology can be derived from other than Theosophical or psychological sources and that there is a deep magical tradition (and I know a lot of members are interested in magic)

FaireMaiden
25-06-2011, 20:37
My sons geography book says that Pluto is no longer a planet
Strange because earlier it was and very important part of astrology too.
And it had its effects like sudden combustion wherever it was placed in a chart.

I know of some cases where pluto in 4th house caused sudden heart attacks.
My pluto is in 10th house of career which gave me a roller coaster ride with career....

so what do you'll feel is pluto still a planet?
I've got Pluto conjunct my South Node and both of them conjunct my MC. My husband has Moon conjunct Pluto and both of them conjunct his DSC. Whenever I do a chart and it has Pluto conjunct an angle, it's important. And it's important because it touches us personally. Just like all the planets do when they are in the angular houses and especially conjunct the cusps of those houses.

I don't care if it's called a planet or not... a rose by any other name and all that. The fact remains, that for the astrology I practice, Pluto just plain works.

tarotlyn
07-07-2011, 03:59
I've got Pluto conjunct my South Node and both of them conjunct my MC. My husband has Moon conjunct Pluto and both of them conjunct his DSC. Whenever I do a chart and it has Pluto conjunct an angle, it's important. And it's important because it touches us personally. Just like all the planets do when they are in the angular houses and especially conjunct the cusps of those houses.

I don't care if it's called a planet or not... a rose by any other name and all that. The fact remains, that for the astrology I practice, Pluto just plain works.

I agree with FaireMaiden, that Pluto is IMPORTANT, in charts when found in sensitive areas.
Most people, that seriously chart the effects of the planet, over the years, with 1,000's of charts,
as I have, would agree with FaireMaiden on this point. I DO agree, it doesn't matter what you
call it, whether a planet, comet, star, rock, feather, etc., it STILL works it's wonderful magic
OR it's events of destruction as the aspects call for. Pluto DOES, overall, call for MAJOR changes
of the owner of the chart. AND yes...we can learn to WORK WITH those aspects IF WE WANT TO.
In astrolgoy, it is not so much what happens, it is HOW we handle what happens.

Re: counseling with astrology
My feeling, on why astrology counseling is so very important, is that when people are
made AWARE of what is causing problems in their life, (especially with Pluto involved), it makes
it so much easier for them to deal with it and they can learn how to handle it all and turn
hardships into positiveness.

:heart: HUGS
tarotlyn

tarotlyn
07-07-2011, 04:08
:):heart: I have two VERY GOOD books to suggest on the subject of PLUTO, if anyone would
care to find them and read them:

1. 'Pluto or Minerva, the Choice is Yours' by Isabel M. Hickey and Bruce H. Altieri., 1973
EXCELLENT and VERY ACCURATE!!!

2. 'Pluto the Evolutionary Journey of the Soul' by Jeff Green, 1985, also EXCELLENT reading!


...please read these and then TEST how this info fits in your own charts...and other's you know...

:heart::) HUGS
tarotlyn

Barleywine
24-07-2011, 10:56
:):heart: I have two VERY GOOD books to suggest on the subject of PLUTO, if anyone would
care to find them and read them:

1. 'Pluto or Minerva, the Choice is Yours' by Isabel M. Hickey and Bruce H. Altieri., 1973
EXCELLENT and VERY ACCURATE!!!

2. 'Pluto the Evolutionary Journey of the Soul' by Jeff Green, 1985, also EXCELLENT reading!


...please read these and then TEST how this info fits in your own charts...and other's you know...

:heart::) HUGS
tarotlyn

I pulled out my copy of Jeff Green's book as I was reading this thread and noticed for the first time that it's sub-titled "Volume 1." I don't recall there ever being a subsequent volume (but then I haven't been looking). After knocking around astrology for the better part of 40 years, I've finally come to appreciate the caveats in most of the standard astrological texts about Pluto and Neptune being principally "generational" planets without a lot to say on a personal level. I do use them in natal analysis as a vital part of constructing a psychological portrait, but have never noticed much effect in predictive work unless coupled with other concurrent planetary influences. Even then, at their rarefied "vibratory level" (for lack of a better analogy), I haven't seen much of an outward manifestation, whether transiting or being transitted. But I know many astrologers see it otherwise.

Minderwiz
24-07-2011, 20:00
I've finally come to appreciate the caveats in most of the standard astrological texts about Pluto and Neptune being principally "generational" planets without a lot to say on a personal level. I do use them in natal analysis as a vital part of constructing a psychological portrait, but have never noticed much effect in predictive work unless coupled with other concurrent planetary influences. Even then, at their rarefied "vibratory level" (for lack of a better analogy), I haven't seen much of an outward manifestation, whether transiting or being transitted. But I know many astrologers see it otherwise.

Yes, the 'generational level is often totally ignored by some Astrologers. To illustrate I ran the interpretation function of Solar Fire on my own chart where I have conjunctions between Mars and Pluto and Saturn and Pluto and got the following:

CONJUNCTION (Saturn) PLUTO Orb 2°08' Applying
You are resourceful and have a pool of enormous energy available when needed. You also have strong desires and a volcanic temper.

CONJUNCTION (Saturn) PLUTO Orb 6°18' Separating
You are an ambitious and powerful person. You are a powerful leader and must learn to use your unique insights for positive purposes.

Now these are clearly directed at me personally and these are so much not me, that I consulted my Ephemeris and using an 8 degree orb

The Mars/Pluto held for just over 30 days around my birth - so EVERYYONE in the world born over that period has a volcanic temper and a pool of enormous energy availalbe when needed.

The Saturn/Pluto conjunction was in effect for 20 months around my birth - so EVERYONE in the world born over these 20 months would be ambitious and powerful people and powerful leaders.

Now I think this actually says more about canned interpretations than it does about Pluto and also about 'silly' Astrologers, who include these sayings in 'personal' profiles, as the author of the interpretations clearly wrote without thinking about the real world. If it's going to be personal to me, then it has to apply to me and no, or few others.

I agree with you about those Pluto transits, etc - I've never found any 'Pluto' effect - though I suppose it's possible it provides some low level background 'radiation'. However that is a heretical statement for most Astrologers these days :)

To be fair to the author, when it comes to Pluto itself by sign, the 'generational' statement is included and there's no attempt to come up with an interpretation by sign. But it doesn't seem to cross the author's mind that he has actually ignored the 'generational' slow movement in his previous interpretations!

Incidentally, no such disclaimer is made for Chiron, where a clear interpretation is made by sign - and how long does Chiron spend in a sign?

That being said, Pluto is so much a part of the modern psychological approach that It's impossible to do a jungian (or freudian) psychological interpretation without it - unless the whole fabric of modern Astrology is torn down and the chances of that happening anytime soon are minimal.

Final heretical statement - there is psychology without Jung

Barleywine
24-07-2011, 22:02
Final heretical statement - there is psychology without Jung

Haha! Well-said. I have any number of books from back in the '70s that explore the psychological approach to astrology (and even saw Marc Edmund Jones and Dane Rudhyar speak on the subject), and I would bet every one of those books is Jungian.

Barleywine
24-07-2011, 22:24
Incidentally, no such disclaimer is made for Chiron, where a clear interpretation is made by sign - and how long does Chiron spend in a sign?


For me, asteroids are a whole 'nuther subject. I never really warmed up to them. The last time I saw Rob Hand speak, he said he doesn't use them "for reasons of economy" (along with a few other choice remarks about "traveling gravel"), and that's pretty much where I am. At the time he was just starting to gravitate back toward medieval astrology, so his outlook was consistent with that trend. At that time (1985), Hand said he was abandoning his book on chart synthesis (a pity!) but that he was working on a book to update Witte and Ebertin on mid-points. Did that ever see the light of day?

To get this back on topic, he did have a few things to say about Pluto (although they may very well be outdated at this point in time):

Pluto = penetrating into the inner depths of things

Saturn-Pluto contacts are compulsive and obsessive; order is paramount

Jupiter-Pluto contacts are psychologically-oriented; good for counseling, trans-personal therapy

"Generational" planets (Uranus, Neptune, Pluto) in aspect with one another need "personal planet" contacts to make them "work" in a chart. Fast-moving planets or points tend to "personalize" the generational aspects.

The transcription of my extensive notes from that lecture is still a fascinating read, and much of it still stands up well.

dadsnook2000
25-07-2011, 00:46
Hello, All.
I use Pluto in different ways. In a natal chart where it has aspectual contacts with middle and inner planets (Sun through Saturn) I tray to cast it as a generation trend within which the inner planets express it as a theme background. In a natal chart where it only contacts Uranus, Neptune (and somewhat weakly, Jupiter and Saturn) I often ignore it or downplay it greatly. If Pluto has no major aspets, I ignore it.

However, in cyclic charts such as a p.c. solar return or interim daily chart where the angles tell the story, Pluto at an angle with other planets at that/other angles is another whole story. Transformational change, pressure, power expressed by oneself or others, etc. can briefly come into play --- within the context of the natal chart and within the context of one's ongoing life-directions. Context is important. Seldom will big things happen for a couch-potatoe or one who does not have angular planets, oppositions, T-squares, etc. in their chart. So, Pluto is pretty much a mixed bag. Often it is out in space, at some points it sneaks its nose in under the tent, much as the unwanted camel does. Dave

Minderwiz
25-07-2011, 05:38
Hello, All.
I use Pluto in different ways. In a natal chart where it has aspectual contacts with middle and inner planets (Sun through Saturn) I tray to cast it as a generation trend within which the inner planets express it as a theme background. In a natal chart where it only contacts Uranus, Neptune (and somewhat weakly, Jupiter and Saturn) I often ignore it or downplay it greatly. If Pluto has no major aspets, I ignore it.

That seems a very sensible approach - If I were a Pluto user I'd ignore my Pluto/Saturn Conjunction because it's a separating aspect of over 6 degrees, which I assume you would take as a weak contact.

When it comes to the Mars/Pluto aspect, it's applying and just over 2 degrees - Now it's not angular but I wonder if you would count that one, and how you'd give a generational slant to it (both are in Leo and in the twelfth). I don't have a volcanic temper - indeed I'm incredibly patient, and I think I've lost my temper twice in 63 years. Nor am I violent in any way - quite the reverse.

If I were a Pluto user I'd want to treat it in the same way that fixed stars are treated - by using an orb of one degree or less and only conjunctions, oppositions (and possibly squares and trines)



However, in cyclic charts such as a p.c. solar return or interim daily chart where the angles tell the story, Pluto at an angle with other planets at that/other angles is another whole story. Transformational change, pressure, power expressed by oneself or others, etc. can briefly come into play --- within the context of the natal chart and within the context of one's ongoing life-directions. Context is important. Seldom will big things happen for a couch-potatoe or one who does not have angular planets, oppositions, T-squares, etc. in their chart. So, Pluto is pretty much a mixed bag. Often it is out in space, at some points it sneaks its nose in under the tent, much as the unwanted camel does. Dave

LOL Whilst I don't do that myself, it certainly seems a sensible and careful approach again orb would be an important consideration here. Pluto's out in space in more senses than the obvious - it sometimes is out of the zodiac entirely, which kind of begs the question of it's relevance at those times. The use of fixed stars originally related to ones which were in the zodiac belt. However your apporach seems to be a lot more considered and tempered than many I've seen.

For me, asteroids are a whole 'nuther subject. I never really warmed up to them. The last time I saw Rob Hand speak, he said he doesn't use them "for reasons of economy" (along with a few other choice remarks about "traveling gravel"), and that's pretty much where I am. At the time he was just starting to gravitate back toward medieval astrology, so his outlook was consistent with that trend. At that time (1985), Hand said he was abandoning his book on chart synthesis (a pity!) but that he was working on a book to update Witte and Ebertin on mid-points. Did that ever see the light of day?

To get this back on topic, he did have a few things to say about Pluto (although they may very well be outdated at this point in time).....

I go along with the point on asteroids and centaurs (Chiron's classification), a view also held by Stephen Arroyo. Hand has actually taken up Hellenistic Astrology and published several pieces on that area.

You might find the following interview he did useful:

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/rhand.html

He does actually make several references to Pluto, including an attempt to categorise Pluto in the traditional way on the Hot/Cold, Dry/Moist axes. Whilst I remain unconvinced by his arguments (not least because there's still a remnant of modern Sun signs in there, it does represent a real attempt to deal with Pluto on Astrological rather than psychological or mythological bases.

He also makes some interesting points about Jung being in the tradition of medieval magicians - which might well upset some people, though again I think he's twisting things ever so slightly to make it work.

Hand's website is:

http://www.arhatmedia.com/newavailpub.htm

And lists his publications plus articles

Barleywine
25-07-2011, 06:25
You might find the following interview he did useful:

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/rhand.html

Hand's website is:

http://www.arhatmedia.com/newavailpub.htm

And lists his publications plus articles

Wow, has he changed his tune! I will quote him from my 1985 lecture notes:

"I'm not into rulerships or essential dignities. I use the signs as little as possible, since I'm not wholly sold on the validity of the zodiac."

I didn't see any mention of a mid-point book on his website, but I do see that Planets in Transit has been expanded. Too bad I can't replace my 1976 cloth-bound edition with an expanded hardbound copy. It has gotten some hard use over the years.

Minderwiz
25-07-2011, 07:37
Wow, has he changed his tune! I will quote him from my 1985 lecture notes:

"I'm not into rulerships or essential dignities. I use the signs as little as possible, since I'm not wholly sold on the validity of the zodiac."

I didn't see any mention of a mid-point book on his website, but I do see that Planets in Transit has been expanded. Too bad I can't replace my 1976 cloth-bound edition with an expanded hardbound copy. It has gotten some hard use over the years.

Yes, I remember the shock too, when I joined the Astrological Association of Great Britain and happened to mention Planets in Transit, which at the time I used regularly. The response was along the lines of 'I think you'll find he no longer holds those views'.

At the time I was a bona fide Pluto user (Yes, honest, I was) but I was beginning to be sceptical about those modern signs, and in part, I think that's what he's referring to in the quote you gave. There's also a good article on his own site about the 'invariance of the tropical zodiac', so I think there was also some doubt on his part about the tropical/sidereal issue rendering the signs invalid.

dadsnook2000
26-07-2011, 00:37
Minderwiz, I don't have your chart data here in Maine where I'm vacationing. Like we tell others, its hard to make useful generalizations based on one factor -- such as Mars-Pluto -- without the whole chart and an understanding of how one feels they use these energies in the context of their life.

Perhaps you can IM your birth data and then I'll be happy to offer a comment. Understanding how these two do or do not work together in a chart can be enlightening to the 3% of us who may also have something similar in our charts. My Mars and Pluto are some 23 degrees apart, Mars being one part of a yod with Saturn as the focus and Venus- Mercury at the other point. Pluto has no major aspects and seldom seems to play any role in my chart. Dave

Minderwiz
26-07-2011, 04:16
Minderwiz, I don't have your chart data here in Maine where I'm vacationing. Like we tell others, its hard to make useful generalizations based on one factor -- such as Mars-Pluto -- without the whole chart and an understanding of how one feels they use these energies in the context of their life.

Perhaps you can IM your birth data and then I'll be happy to offer a comment. Understanding how these two do or do not work together in a chart can be enlightening to the 3% of us who may also have something similar in our charts. My Mars and Pluto are some 23 degrees apart, Mars being one part of a yod with Saturn as the focus and Venus- Mercury at the other point. Pluto has no major aspects and seldom seems to play any role in my chart. Dave

Hi Dave,

I wasn't looking for anything 'personal', I was just wondering two things;

Firstly whether you would count an applying conjunction of 2 degrees as meeting your criteria for a relevant aspect - I'm assuming you would

Secondly, how you would add a generational context to a Mars/Pluto conjunction - I added the sign, simply to see if that would be your generational criterion and the house, merely to show it wasn't angular (it's well into a cadent house). Pluto is in a wide opposition to the Moon (over 6.5 degrees and Mars is over 2 degrees beyond that) so really it's Mars and Pluto on their own in a cadent house, Mars rules the fourth and ninth, though again, that tends to become 'personal' rather than a generational slant.

I was simply looking to a methodological approach - how you would apply your approach in broad brush terms. However if it's still an issue I'll PM my details.

DevilishAngel
26-07-2011, 07:20
My mother has a Mars/Pluto conjunction, oh I see it. That can get scary.

dadsnook2000
26-07-2011, 08:29
The outer planets (Uranus, Neptune, Pluto, plus -- in some ways -- Jupiter and Saturn can be seen as generational planets. I use Jupiter and Saturn as a "business of life" pair which indicates how we reach out and operate in both of two ways; how we apply our personal planets to run our personal social opportunities and responsibilities, and how we function in a "wheels within wheels beurocratic daily life as small parts within a very large whole. But, lets move on.

As "generational" planets, we can see the outer three through their signs. Pluto as a 20+ plus year indicator, Neptune as a 14 year indicator, and Uranus as a 7 year indicator. Pluto in Leo, as an example, points to those within a 20 year period who exhibit a "me" generation theme (at least here in the US), are proud, self-reliant, claim personal integrity (even if they are politicians), are concerned about transforming society for women and minorities, like the idea of individual rights and responsiblity. do not like to be labeled as part of a group, and fight against the authority of others.

Once we look at these outer planets within the context of houses we personalize them to the extent that they may link up with personal planets though aspects. In your case, Minderwiz, the closing conjoining of Mars and Pluto in the 12 house does suggest ways in which Pluto can have meaning for you. Mars is, of course, a creative and energizing planet, and the 12th house suggests a supportive role (implying "others"). How might you help others transform themselves, gain both a inner and outer perspective of themselves, lead them to personal changes and empowerment within an outer world where institutions and seemingly overwhelming forces pose challenges to there efforts to express themselves.

With the overlapping of Uranus (innovative changes), Neptune (idealism, trends and self deceptions) and Pluto (domination by hidden powers) cycles, we have to take a look at how our immediate contemporaries (within a year or two of our birth year) can conduct thier individual "business of life" strengths through the house-expression outlets of their charts to make their individual way in life. Of course their personalities (Sun, Moon, Mercury, Venus, Mars, node in the houses) make up their adaptability to running their personal business of opportunity-responsibility ventures.

So, its "signs" for the outer planets, houses for the other planets, and interaction between the outer and inner (when aspects occur) planets that shape how we succeed as individuals within each unique generational group. Dave

PS: Would an Aecletic moderator be seen as a hidden-supportive teacher of personal transformation?

Minderwiz
27-07-2011, 01:56
Thanks Dave,

I'll try and move the discussion on, but there'll be some digressions as I pick up some of your points

I must admit I forgot your predilection for planetary pair cycles, so I perhaps should have included Neptune and Uranus, to give you more meat. I think you are spot on with Mars. From my approach, I'd have pointed out that Mars is a hot and dry planet in a hot and dry sign and a fixed sign at that. Unlike Mars in Aries, Mars in Leo is more persistant - though unlike Mars in Scorpio, (also fixed) it's more likely to burn out or seize up from that constant attack. The twelfth diverts it from being full on, so the persistency is mitigated. My Mars is peregrine - keeping it focussed is a problem, it might be persistent but not necessarily always in the way I would like. The House rulerships are important - the ninth rules higher education and learning, which also includes Astrology, divination and prophecy - all of which have and do play a major role in my life - I worked in Higher Education for nearly 40 years before which I was in Higher Education as a student.

The fourth is also important not just the usual family and home interpretation but also it rules roots and foundations - I have a real enjoyment and need for history, origins and the reasons why things are as they are. So that I'm interested in and follow the history of Astrology and is tradition is one aspect of that Mars. Also, Mars' ruler (and Ascendant ruler) is the Sun, placed in the third House of the Goddess (again concerned with the non-standard and occult approaches to religion and spiritual expression).

Now is this affected or intensified by Pluto? The short answer is 'I don't know' but I'll try and pursue the matter as it may well spark responses in you or others. I've come to Astrology three times in my life. For the first two, I ended up disillusioned. When I started again for the last and current time, the same disillusion set it. However a chace reference to Horary, in Nick Campion's Practical Astrologer, led me to Tony Louis' Horary Astrology and I became hooked.

It occurred to me then, that if I spent six to 12 months starting Astrology from the beginning - i.e. its historical roots and origins, I could get over my disillusion with modern sign meanings and the use of the outers (the main reason I was put off them was the illogical assignation of 'co-rulerships' and the vagueness of interpretative, though in Neptune's case it's supposed to be vague LOL).

Six to 12 months has become nearer 12 years and like many before me, the more I've read and investigated, the more I realise how much I don't know. And sadly our knowledge of the origins and development of Astrology is very imperfect, with much missing or not translated into modern English. Like you I've cracked the 'sign' issue - in my case using the original sign meanings and not the Alan Leo anthropomorphic meanings. However the outers remain a real issue.

In the interview with Rob Hand, mentioned earlier, He attempts to apply a traditional approach to diagnosing the essential nature of the outers. Uranus he takes as Hot and Dry, Neptune as Cold an Wet and Pluto he has problems with. He ends up saying that Pluto is a sort of reverse Mercury (the higher octave? LOL) Whereas Mercury takes on the characteristics of what it touches, Pluto inverts what it touches - using my conjunction with Mars as an example, Mars is Hot and Dry, so Hand would say that the conjunction with Pluto results in it becoming Cold and Wet. That might have some attraction - one of the minor reasons why Mars rules Scorpio is that as a Water sign it was seen as cooling down Mars and making him more effective (the lubricant which keeps the high energy machine working). So my Mars should not be as direct and aggressive as the usual interpretation because, firstly it's in the twelfth, which keeps it to the side of the main action and secondly it is lubricated by it's conjunction to Pluto. Hand sees Pluto's role as the turning point in the cycle and therefore 'transformationalI' (my word not his). Now that's very appealing BUT it's the only such explanation I've come across. It's Hand's opinion but unlike the opinion of just anybody, Hand is a recognised expert in Astrology and Hellenistic and Medieval Astrology in particular. It's therefore an opinion that's not easy to ignore. I'm just waiting for the book now!

I'm not convinced on the small amount of space devoted to the point but it is a small amount of space and he also makes some good points about Jung 'borrowing' and building on the Hellenistic/Medieval four humours - something I've had first hand experience of when receiving them dished up as a 'modern' theory of personality and learner psychology by people who didn't (but should have) know(n) better.

So perhaps I am on the right path - Hand sees the meaning of Pluto found in the history of Astrology, at it's deepest and most fundamental level. Seeing Pluto has usurped Saturns rulerships of the subterranean depths, perhaps that's fitting.

PS in response to Dave's PS, I'd say this Aeclectic moderator sees his role as upfront assistance in personal transformation LOL, though through supplying the background and hopefully asking the right questions or throwing out the right challenges, even if they are heretical.:)

Barleywine
27-07-2011, 09:38
. . . the lubricant which keeps the high energy machine working

Hmmm . . . one might be forgiven for thinking Vaseline is the lubricant that keeps Mars in Scorpio working . . . no, no, forget I said that, just being cheeky }). I've been working with astro-geomancy lately, wherein the outer planets have no place. The next time I do a natal chart, though, it will be with a new set of eyes!