Sybilla (Gypsy Oracle) numerological correspondences

[marimorimo]

I've read that Sybilla cards are based from an old playing card divination system. If so, what was that system? I can't seem to fit the Sybilla to the most commonly known numerological correspondences.

For example, looking at the twos in the deck:

2 of Spades : Old Woman
2 of Hearts : House
2 of Clubs : Haughtiness
2 of Diamonds : Letter

Except for maybe Letter, I can't connect the images to the traditional meaning of the twos as 'duality and choice.' And how can House be a Two? I see it more as 4 for stability (like in the Lenormand).

Anybody have an idea? :)

[Cerulean]

Some of the Lo Scarabero or other reprints have oan unusual deck system only known among that particular set or actually might be mis-labelled.

For instance, one of the Lo Scarabeo Sibilla Oracle card sets that I have on hand is actually an un-named but recognizeably smaller reprint of Grimaud's older 52-54 (2 cards being querent cards if I remember right--but it only might have 53 cards) "Parlour Sibyl" and 32-36 Petite Cartomancy decks. I can tell you that is supposed to be a French/Belgian system that is loosely based on Lenormand families of oracles--and the families tended to be based on the publishers and regions of each European country.

The twos in the Parlour Sibyl and Sibilla Oracle based on the French (and exported to Belgium) Grimaud are:

Two of Clubs-Fidelity/attachment
Two of Spades - Card Players
Two of Hearts - Maison de Campagne
Two of Diamonds - Plaisures Divertisement.

I think the Sibyl deck you might have is an Italian deck? If it is by Lo Scarabeo or Modiano, please let me know. If it is by Piatnik, Grimaud/Frances Cartes or German, etc., someone might be able to trace it based on your description or any link to pictures.

Thanks.

[marimorimo]

It's a Lo Scarabeo sybilla called Sybilla de la Zingara. The newer edition with black borders. It actually doesn't come with ANY playing card correspondences (an older edition with a beige border has card correspondences at the sides). I had to search for the playing card association from the net. I used the ones listed at Kapherus' site.

Thanks for the reply :)

[Cerulean]

and I thought Debra has a copy from before 1950.

I have a circa 1950 set with subtitles in English. The pictures look 1930'S nostalgia, but I also have a smaller modern version with the title.

http://www.tarot-as-tarocchi.com/modiano.html

If I find out more, I will post.

Cerulean


I've read that Sybilla cards are based from an old playing card divination system. If so, what was that system? I can't seem to fit the Sybilla to the most commonly known numerological correspondences.

For example, looking at the twos in the deck:

2 of Spades : Old Woman
2 of Hearts : House
2 of Clubs : Haughtiness
2 of Diamonds : Letter

Except for maybe Letter, I can't connect the images to the traditional meaning of the twos as 'duality and choice.' And how can House be a Two? I see it more as 4 for stability (like in the Lenormand).

Anybody have an idea? :)

[Cerulean]

The oldest I could find was the link that I will insert later. I think Lo Scarabeo's pictures are from 1925.
I never found anything that much older for this kind of set, the Italian version.

http://www.tarot-as-tarocchi.com/armanino.html

Another picture on that link...
I have the later 1942 version, actually tax stamped on my version 1947 on the Letter. The odd numbers on the side are supposed to help identify, have to do a bit of study..

The cards of divination might have been the Italianate parlor sybil, but I am not certain about cards older than 1920's fortune telling Italian decks in detail except the Modiano designs of the Cagliostro/184 similar to Papus/ Etteilla...

Later,

Cerulean

[marimorimo]

Thanks a lot for the research :)

I looked around the site and found the Sybilla version closest to mine here:

http://www.tarot-as-tarocchi.com/periodici.html

La sibilla della Zingara, 2000

Only now Lo Scarabeo prints it with black borders and NO numbers whatsoever.

Sorry for the n00b question but, don't all Sybilla cards have more or less the same card names? Or suit/number correspondences? Just like most tarot decks do.

[Cerulean]

have similar designs. But not all the samples of decks that I have in this 'Italian style' seem to have numbers in their cards.

The best I could come up based on your description and checking through the Italian decks for the twos was the Courts of Love by Modiano.

I found a link to the French Sibilla Oracle--but as I said it is not similar to Lo Scarabeo's Gypsy Oracle, as it is a reprint of the Grimaud Cartomancien. Notice the titles:

http://www.learntarot.com/sidesc.htm


Now that we have pictures posted, I hope other fans will be able to confirm, help or can answer your question specifically. Maybe they will have time to post a link or type up something in regards to the Gypsy Oracle cards.


Best wishes

Cerulean

[Cerulean]

I located this edition with keywords and similar pictures. If no one else types them for you by the time I get back, I will try.

But others who can help, please do so.

[marimorimo]

Oh, thanks a lot! You don't need to bother :) (more extra work!). If you can point me to the source I'll try figuring it out myself :)

[Cerulean]

has a list attachment with playing card symbol and keyword meanings that closely correspond to the LS Sibylla, Everyday Oracle, Arminino Giouco, and Modiano Courts of Love in Italian. Modiano had fashioned its tarot and oracle decks with a crossover of Papus and Etteilla style meanings...the cartomancy is circa 1900's and is a blend. The thread needs to be linked and you can read the sources.

Post number six has a partial listng of upright/reversed in English.

Not all Italian decks follow this, the summary of decks I posted before is noted above.

[cardlady22]

ETA: link to Cerulean's thread
http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=151890

This thread has translations:

http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=103965
post 8 :heart: and :diamond:
post 11 :spade:
post 15 :club:

from my Watched Thread list:
http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=132470 (canid)
http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=83627 (BodhiSeed)

[Cerulean]

We could start a timeline or sampler with all the decks referenced. I like the idea of comparing...just need a five pocket business card portfolio and color copies...

Cerulean

[Cerulean]

The first and second page of the Antiquitario Italian section has an 1880 three card sample.

Here is the 1880--insert 1

But I love the 1912--especially Eve in Matrimonio! It reminds me of my circa 1865 Etteilla Card #8 Repose where Etteilla took the seven days of creation from the Pymander and also the Rider Waite Eve in the Lovers:

Here is the 1912--insert 2


It is the link tarot as tarocchi-I posted earlier the Arminino versions circa 1925 and 194X, and M found her sibilla/gypsy oracle reproduction. I will insert link later. This is the Italian affliliation of the international card players society.

http://www.tarot-as-tarocchi.com/antiche_1.html

The names of similar decks with 52 to 56 (the four extra being consultant cards of young man, woman, mature woman, mature man) for the Italian publishers

Gypsy oracle
Giouco indovino
Sibilla
Everyday oracle
Courts of Love
Cartas Fortuna