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Minderwiz
24-07-2003, 08:03
I looked at the traditional idea of the four temperaments which Astrologers used to use to describe people's nature.

Rather than risk it taking over the Leo thread I have put the link to the site here for people who want to try and determine their own temperaments.

http://www.oneishy.com/personality/personality_test.php

This does not use Astrology as the basis for temperament assessment - it uses the more up to date scaling techniques and it is clearly a modern version.

However it will give you a good idea what the traditional Astrologers meant when they describes someone as Melancholic (we tend to use the term to indicate a sort of depression). Choleric, Phlegmatic and Sanguine.

If you look at the Yellow bar across the top of the page you will see it say Definitions. If you click on the W (weaknesses) or S (Strengths) following each type you will get a run down of what the type means.

Use this thread to either post your results or to discuss the types, rather than putting it in the Leo thread.

isthmus nekoi
24-07-2003, 10:22
I take it choleric is firey? I must be that w/Mars conj ASC!

anjocoxo
24-07-2003, 17:42
I just went to have a look on what it said about me; I'm Leo, and when I did the test, the result was sanguine. Now I went to see what it means.... and it's my portrait!!!!

give you some examples:
Talkative, Storyteller
Changeable disposition
Always a child (my boyfriend keeps complaining about this part of my personality, but I like being this way, LOL)
Turns disaster into humor (always thinking positive, I guess)
Looks great on the Surface
apologizes quickly

as for weakness...
Compulsive talker (bla, bla, bla all the time)
Dwells on trivia (the smaller the details are, the more I dwell on them, it's stupid, I know)
Has loud voice and laugh (another thing bf complains...)
Never Grows Up
Undisciplined (totally and completely)
Easily distracted (especially when I'm bored)
Interrupts and doesn't listen (LOLOL, I've had people complaining about this, so I guess it's true :D )

Thanks for the links, minderwitz, it's great!

Anjo

Minderwiz
25-07-2003, 17:59
Just a quick thought

The temperaments were the way of looking at what we call personality during the Medieval period - the time when the Tarot entered Europe. It may be worth considering the use of the temperaments when intrepreting the court cards or even possibly some majors.

The people that developed these cards thought in terms of temperaments. It might through some light on their meanings.

isthmus nekoi
26-07-2003, 02:11
Ah, that makes so much sense, Minderwiz.... this idea was encorporated into alchemy, as well as astrology, so why not tarot? I've read the 4 correlate to Jungian types (although probably not exactly), which could then relate them to the suits/elements.

I lent my psy textbook to a friend, but I recall the 4 tempermants also being linked to 4 bodily fluids:
phlegmatic - phlegm
sanguine - blood
choleric and melancholy, I don't remember but one of them is bile. It would be interesting to see if the signs ruling the bodily fluid also matched w/the element of the sign ruling the tempermant (ie. if Mars rules blood and fire (Aries) was related to sanguine)

The 4 were also linked to colour I think, which gets very alchemical...

Keslynn
27-07-2003, 13:54
I think melancholy is related to black bile while choleric is associated with yellow bile.

Melancholy/black bile = cold and dry = earth
Choleric/yellow bile = hot and dry = fire
Sanguine/blood = hot and moist = air
Phlegmatic/phlegm = cold and moist = water

I hope that's right. I don't have any of my books with me for now. :(

*edited to fix mixup of air and water*

:) Kes

PS - I'm a choleric sanguine

Minderwiz
30-07-2003, 06:24
Yes Kes,

That's right

LittleWing
30-07-2003, 19:14
Choleric by far - but i dont consider myself as a hotheaded, bossy , unfeeling individual !! I dont have much fire in my chart - but i am a taurus with strong will and strong views. I am Pisces rising 26 degrees - is there a chance that i could take on some of Aries attributes? - i've always thought i had some Aries. I suppose, I have Aries in my first house, as well as Taurus, and there i have the sun.

bibi
05-04-2005, 01:48
I'm a Leo and I came out as Melancholy Choleric (I think the Melancholy is my Cancer ASC talking!) So.. I take this to mean that I keep blowing hot and cold but my humour's always dry .lol
Bib x

Barleywine
28-07-2011, 21:37
I looked at the traditional idea of the four temperaments which Astrologers used to use to describe people's nature.

Rather than risk it taking over the Leo thread I have put the link to the site here for people who want to try and determine their own temperaments.

http://www.oneishy.com/personality/personality_test.php

This does not use Astrology as the basis for temperament assessment - it uses the more up to date scaling techniques and it is clearly a modern version.

However it will give you a good idea what the traditional Astrologers meant when they describes someone as Melancholic (we tend to use the term to indicate a sort of depression). Choleric, Phlegmatic and Sanguine.

If you look at the Yellow bar across the top of the page you will see it say Definitions. If you click on the W (weaknesses) or S (Strengths) following each type you will get a run down of what the type means.

Use this thread to either post your results or to discuss the types, rather than putting it in the Leo thread.

Rather than starting a new thread, I thought I'd jump on this one. What I'm really looking for is a good, thorough exposition (a table would be even better) on the planetary and sign "natures" (e.g. "hot/dry/fiery/choleric," "cold/moist/watery/phlegmatic') as derived from the four "humours" (choleric, sanguine. phlegmatic and melancholic). I'm trying to make sense of Agrippa's and Fludd's divergent assignments of the planets and signs to the four elements through the attributions to the geomantic figures. I've already explored Lilly, James Wilson's 1880 Dictionary of Astrology and Tetrabiblos. I have a Geomancy thread going on the Divination forum and am trying to tie this subject in to the astro-geomancy discussion. Does anyone know a better source?

BTW, I wasn't able to get to the link. It kept timing out on me.

Barleywine
28-07-2011, 21:44
I am Pisces rising 26 degrees - is there a chance that i could take on some of Aries attributes? - i've always thought i had some Aries. I suppose, I have Aries in my first house, as well as Taurus, and there i have the sun.

Could very well be, as there is a perspective (based on Michel Gauquelin's work) that the incoming influence of every house starts ~5 degrees before the actual degree on the cusp. At one point, Rob Hand divided the preceding house into sixths and used the last sixth as "turning over" into the next house. I'm not sure where he stands on that today.

Minderwiz
29-07-2011, 06:49
Rather than starting a new thread, I thought I'd jump on this one. What I'm really looking for is a good, thorough exposition (a table would be even better) on the planetary and sign "natures" (e.g. "hot/dry/fiery/choleric," "cold/moist/watery/phlegmatic') as derived from the four "humours" (choleric, sanguine. phlegmatic and melancholic). I'm trying to make sense of Agrippa's and Fludd's divergent assignments of the planets and signs to the four elements through the attributions to the geomantic figures. I've already explored Lilly, James Wilson's 1880 Dictionary of Astrology and Tetrabiblos. I have a Geomancy thread going on the Divination forum and am trying to tie this subject in to the astro-geomancy discussion. Does anyone know a better source?


There isn't a definitive answer to what you're looking for. Temperament was in use for 2,000 years and it's not surprising that within that period you get some variations - not major ones but nevertheless variations.

Most of these relate to Mercury and Venus - both of which have something of a dual nature stemming from their alternate roles as morning and evening stars - basically whether they are oriental or occidental.

Signs are fairly strait forward, Air signs are Sanguine, Water signs are Phlegmatic, Fire signs are Choleric and Earth signs are Melancholic. There can be fine tuning, using the quadraplicities or seasonal factors, or other characteristics of the sign.. For example Sagittarius will be less choleric as an Autumnal sign, than Leo, which is an Estival sign. However some writers subdivide signs, for example, Capricornus is a sea goat, and you will find references to the latter half of the sign being cold and moist, rather than cold and dry.

Dorian Greenbaum's book on Temperament is a good guide. There's also a good chapter in Avelar and Ribeiro's 'The Heavenly Spheres. But neither of these aims to be comprehensive of every single writer.

Edited to add:

For the planets:

Moon is Cold and Moist
Sun is Hot and Dry
Mars is Hot and Dry (but drier than Sun)
Jupiter is Hot and Moist
Saturn is Cold and Dry

Venus can be Cold and Moist or Hot and Moist depending on author and sometimes depending on orientality.

Mercury is far more difficult to pin down as it takes characteristics of any planet in aspect. Again it's temperament for some authors varies according to orientality, or sign placement. Cool and Dry or simply Dry is a fair description of it's temperament.

Barleywine
29-07-2011, 07:45
There isn't a definitive answer to what you're looking for. Temperament was in use for 2,000 years and it's not surprising that within that period you get some variations - not major ones but nevertheless variations.

Most of these relate to Mercury and Venus - both of which have something of a dual nature stemming from their alternate roles as morning and evening stars - basically whether they are oriental or occidental.

Signs are fairly strait forward, Air signs are Sanguine, Water signs are Phlegmatic, Fire signs are Choleric and Earth signs are Melancholic. There can be fine tuning, using the quadraplicities or seasonal factors, or other characteristics of the sign.. For example Sagittarius will be less choleric as an Autumnal sign, than Leo, which is an Estival sign. However some writers subdivide signs, for example, Capricornus is a sea goat, and you will find references to the latter half of the sign being cold and moist, rather than cold and dry.

Dorian Greenbaum's book on Temperament is a good guide. There's also a good chapter in Avelar and Ribeiro's 'The Heavenly Spheres. But neither of these aims to be comprehensive of every single writer.

Thanks for the tips. That would make Agrippa's assignment of the geomantic figures to the elements according to their ruling signs a more reliable way to go, with the understanding that the Sun and Moon rule two figures each, creating a slight imbalance in Fire and Water, and Caput Draconis and Cauda Draconis are kind of "wild cards" with no established sign attributions that anyone can agree on. None of this really affects practical use, I'm just trying to run it down to complete my understanding.

Barleywine
29-07-2011, 10:31
For the planets:

Moon is Cold and Moist
Sun is Hot and Dry
Mars is Hot and Dry (but drier than Sun)
Jupiter is Hot and Moist
Saturn is Cold and Dry

Venus can be Cold and Moist or Hot and Moist depending on author and sometimes depending on orientality.

Mercury is far more difficult to pin down as it takes characteristics of any planet in aspect. Again it's temperament for some authors varies according to orientality, or sign placement. Cool and Dry or simply Dry is a fair description of it's temperament.

Thanks for the update; it agrees with my reading. In addition, Lilly pointed out that the Sun is more "temperate" than Mars, that Jupiter is "temperately" hot, and that Venus is "temperately" cold, partaking somewhat of both Water and Air. Also, the Moon can vary in temperament according to its phase, which I believe is one of the things you were alluding to earlier. My goal in applying all of this to astro-geomancy is to meld the planetary temperaments with the figures and their associated signs in a way that I can see the underlying reasons for; so far it's been an uphill battle. Perhaps I just haven't found the right books yet.