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rota
20-07-2011, 15:01
Pardon me if this is a dumb question, but I'm curious to know to which sign, planet and house the Tarot is assigned. Tarot as an idea, Tarot as a concept, I mean.

Is Tarot a 3rd house concept, since it has to do with communication? Or would it be 12th house, because of its secretive occultic associations?

Which planet rules Tarot? Uranus, for unexpected revelation? Pluto, for its deep, dark inscrutable-ness? Mercury, maybe?

And which sign is considered to be most associated with Tarot? Aquarius? Gemini?

Insights appreciated!

Ronia
20-07-2011, 15:07
I've always thought it's 9th house thing, Pluto and Scorpio. But I've seen its dark side too, so... And I'm not an expert at all.

tarotlyn
20-07-2011, 15:38
:):heart: I feel it is more of the 12 House association,
(at least for me), because I think that it rules Spiritual inspiration,
cosmic consciousness, enlightenment, dreams, as well as Universal consciousness.

The 12th house also rules the subconscious (or the unconscious) as well as psychic
channeling and miraculous healing. You can throw past lives, inner peace, centering,
and a mystical state of consciousness in there too!

I think the cards are only pieces of paper (with beautiful or interesting art) and are only a
FOCUS point for readers to touch their subconscious minds for the answers or solutions to
those in need at the time.

I also happen to think that tarot readers that actually help people are those that are able
to tap into and work within their own 12th house realm of attributes during their tarot readings.


Even though the 12th house indicates the 'secretive side' of the occult, it is only secretative
to those that cannot reach or touch their subconscious minds for the good of others,
or even for themselves.

ETA: I should have also said that I think that Pluto also rules the subconscious mind and
certainly has an influence on tarot and other metaphysical methods of psychic focus.

:heart: tarotlyn

Minderwiz
20-07-2011, 21:29
The House system has been established for over two millenia with clear meanings and rulerships for each house, however what is variable is the perception by people on the classification or categorisation of things to be assigned to a particular house.

What makes it even more complicated is that some things may be seen to have several different qualities which fall into the meanings of more than one house. For example is a car to be classified as third house, transport or second house moveable possession. I've seen quite some debate on that one. I suspect that the answer to classification here depends on 'what am I using it for' i.e. usage within a specific context.

So it really depends on your perception of 'Tarot' and which aspect of it's complex and diverse nature you are concerned with. The cards themselves are a physical, moveable possession. If 'Where are my Tarot cards?' is a horary question, then clearly it's about the deck itself and not it's use. My collection of Tarot cards, would almost always be seen in that context.

However if I'm using my cards for divination, then we move into a different house. There are at least three possibilities that could be considered and all of these depend on your perception of the divination process.

Modern Astrologers seem to use the twelfth for sub-conscious processes (the sub-conscious being a very modern concept), on the grounds that it is 'hidden'. To the extent that you see a subconscious process in train in a reading then that is definitely a house to consider. If you see the process as entirely sub-conscious then it's your choice of house to use.

However divination pre-dates our concept of the subconscious and that opens up two further houses for consideration. The ninth has been seen as the House of God, since classical times, and God here is a pre-Christian view (the Etruscans saw that area of the sky as the home of Great Celestial Dieties). Thus by the time of Manilus, writing about 10 AD, the ninth is associated with 'spiritual' activities, including destiny, divination of the will of the Gods, and associated activities, such as revelation, soothsaying and prophesy. Al Biruni links it to Astrology and dinvination. Lilly explicitly includes dreams and visions in this list, and he probably got that from later medieval writers.

So, if you see the Tarot being used for divination then you would use the ninth House to examine and comment on that use. However, there's a third candidate. The ninth is often seen as being the House for organised religion - indeed the performance of public rituals - and it's opposite, the third house seen as the house for the performance of private or non-established rituals. Indeed the ninth House is seen as being Solar - the Sun joys in the ninth - open and public and the third is lunar - the Moon joys in the third - nocturnal andconcerned with the fortunes and fate. The third is the Temple of the Moon or the House of the Goddess.

So there are two choices there, one which sees the Tarot process as perhaps a public, open and established ritual and one which sees it being more private, or a lunar nature, part of the non-rational animal or instinctive mind, and more hidden.

Which of these you take really depends on your own perception of the Tarot and its use. I don't think there's a definitive answer which covers the process of reading that would satisfy everyone, as everyone has a different perception of the way in which the Tarot works.

The examples above are obviously not the only way that one can view the Tarot 'process' - for example is it some form of relationship between reader and sitter. which might involve the seventh House.

My personal view is that I'd use the third for the process of using Tarot cards for a reading in general, though in specific contexts the ninth might be preferred, for example a reading on Aeclectic, because here Tarot is the open, public, established 'religion'. I would have reservations in using the twelfth, because of its unfortunate nature in Astrology, and I don't see Tarot as in any way being essentially 'unfortunate'.

jaj
21-07-2011, 00:05
From a reference perspective, Rex E. Bills's classic The Rulership Book does not list 'tarot', but assigns 'divination' to Neptune and Pluto.

Barleywine
22-07-2011, 03:15
I've always thought it's 9th house thing, Pluto and Scorpio. But I've seen its dark side too, so... And I'm not an expert at all.

Just curious, are you using the sidereal system? Since the alignment of the sidereal and tropical zodiacs has drifted approximately 25 degrees apart since 200 AD due to the precession of the equinoxes, that would place most of Scorpio in the 9th house if the sidereal signs were overlaid on a Placidus house structure. In the Tropical Placidean house/sign alignment, the 9th house correlates to Jupiter-ruled Sagittarius.

Since I use the tarot primarily for study in conjunction with the paths of the Tree of Life, it would certainly have a 9th-house "higher awareness" connotation for me. I can see where simple divination on a purely practical level just using straight-up card meanings could be a 3rd house communication activity, while bringing "light out of the darkness" of the unconscious via a more intuitive reading approach could be 12th house (Pisces/Neptune). Note that these are cadent houses, and all that implies. On the other hand, the sharing of deep, penetrating insights would also relate well to the 8th house (Pluto/Scorpio) ideas of "the extraction of essences;" psychoanalysis; behind-the-scenes research and similar investigative explorations.

kwaw
22-07-2011, 04:09
Tarot as a game (either as a card game or when used for divination / fortune telling when such is entertained as a form of parlour game or dinner party entertainment) would be 5th house I think...

Minderwiz
22-07-2011, 05:27
Tarot as a game (either as a card game or when used for divination / fortune telling when such is entertained as a form of parlour game or dinner party entertainment) would be 5th house I think...

Yes if the purpose of the exercise was simple entertainment or even gambling the you are right. It comes back to my original post that context and purpose is vital to the choice of house. And clearly Tarot can be used i many varied ways.

In terms of planets, Lilly's comments on the signification of Mercury includes:

'...a man ..a searcher into all kinds of mysteries....curious in the search of any occult knowledge, given to divination and the more secret knowledge'

In this context he's clearly considering it's use in horary and it's use clearly relates to a person doing the divination (in this case Tarot reading). Although this is the only reference I can find to the use of a planet to signify divination, its use seems to be clearly associated with the Hermetic Arts (Mercury=Hermes) in medieval and early modern times.

Whether you 'should' use Mercury, again depends on your perception of the Tarot process and the way in which a Tarot reader 'divines' knowledge to perform a reading for a sitter.

As for signs, Astrologers before about 1900 used signs in a totally different way to modern Astrologers - as I've shown elsewhere, this was the major contribution of Alan Leo to Astrology. And we should be very careful about attributing modern Western sign meanings to sidereal signs - I think Dave has commented on that quite a lot. Sign rulerships before 1900 tended to be confined to medical (including medicines), anatomical and geographical matters. So I've found no classical references to signs associated with divination. Clearly if you take a modern approach and want to use Neptune or Pluto (or both) then you're going to make associations with Pisces and the twelfth and Scorpio and the eighth respectively but the Astrological Alphabet approach shuts out so much of the richness of Astrology.

Edited to add:

On a re-read of the last couple of sentences, I gave the impression that ALL Modern Astrologers use the Astrological Alphabet, which of course is not the case. Anyone who has read Dave's posts knows full well that he's as much a critic of that system as I am, and he does use the outers. So it would be better to say that you can use Neptune and Pluto for divination without having to associate with the twelfth and eighth respectively.

That does not preclude the associations of Freudian or Jungian psychology with one or both of these houses.

kwaw
22-07-2011, 05:29
In terms of planets, Lilly's comments on the signification of Mercury states:

'...a man ..a searcher into all kinds of mysteries....curious in the search of any occult knowledge, given to divination and the more secret knowledge'


Mythologically mercury was also considered inventor of games, such as dice and cards, so would fit in that respect too, as also role as messenger, communication, also in respect of tarot being an object to buy, sell, trade - but in terms of astrology/horary, as toys and entertainment or objet d'art would generally come under venus I suppose. In terms of a horary, any planet could be significator, depending on which relates to the subject or object of the question (and whether tarot in the relation to the question is subject or object) accoring to the chart at the time of the question (as ruler of the ascendant for example) - as you say, there are a variety of choices depending upon context and a more specific definition of tarot as 'concept'.

Minderwiz
22-07-2011, 06:20
Just curious, are you using the sidereal system? Since the alignment of the sidereal and tropical zodiacs has drifted approximately 25 degrees apart since 200 AD due to the precession of the equinoxes, that would place most of Scorpio in the 9th house if the sidereal signs were overlaid on a Placidus house structure. In the Tropical Placidean house/sign alignment, the 9th house correlates to Jupiter-ruled Sagittarius.

Sorry in my previous post I didn't really take up the point that you make here. Actually under a tropical system and using the Placidus houses (or any other house system) the ninth has associations with Sagittarius and Jupiter, and this held from the Hellenistic period, where the two zodiacs were in synch to the modern day. The difference between traditional and modern astrology, which both share this association is the way it's derived. Modern Astrologers associate signs in order and the ruling planets of the signs are associated with each house in turn - as shown by some of the previous comments.

In both cases the signs run from Aries and first to Pisces and twelfth - though association here is not likeness it's sequence Sagittarius simply shares the 9th place in order of the signs.

When it comes to planets order again is the base. In this case the first planet in order is Saturn (using chaldean order) so Saturn is 'associated' with the first House, Jupiter the second and so on. The order completes at the seventh house with the Moon and then starts again with Saturn and the eighth, Jupiter and the ninth, etc. Lilly actually uses the term 'co-significator' to show that planet sign and house are entirely different.

Notice that the original system has the Moon and Libra as co-significators of the seventh again stressing that there's no equality between planet, sign and House.

In my first post I mentioned the Joys, which also links the planets to houses in the sense of that is where they either best perform or are best located. The Sun joys in the ninth. So you have Sun and Jupiter with the ninth.

The other Joys are:

Saturn, 12th House,
Jupiter 11th House
Mars 6th House
Venus 5th House
Mercury 1st House
Moon 3rd House

Although I suggested Mercury as a possible planetary association with divination, I wouldn't even think of using the first house for Tarot, unless it was in a horary about 'Will the plane carrying my tarot collection arrive on time?' or similar.

Barleywine
22-07-2011, 07:40
In both cases the signs run from Aries and first to Pisces and twelfth - though association here is not likeness it's sequence Sagittarius simply shares the 9th place in order of the signs.

This is an important point to make with the tarot community, and I've taken it up at least once before on that forum. Many who use an astrological spread - and even some authors who should know better - indiscriminately swap sign attributes with house attributes in their interpretations, even when they set out to explain qualities clearly within the province of the houses.

When it comes to planets order again is the base. In this case the first planet in order is Saturn (using chaldean order) so Saturn is 'associated' with the first House, Jupiter the second and so on. The order completes at the seventh house with the Moon and then starts again with Saturn and the eighth, Jupiter and the ninth, etc. Lilly actually uses the term 'co-significator' to show that planet sign and house are entirely different.

I have very little unfiltered knowledge of Chaldean astrology, so I can't really relate to these planetary house assignments. I'm interested in your reference to Lilly, though; my oldest published work on astrology is William Lilly's 1647 "Christian Astrology" (it has nothing to do with Christianity as far as I can tell), a facsimile edition lavishly re-published by Regulus in 1985. Does the "co-significator" reference come from that or elsewhere? I haven't penetrated far into it since the archaic style and type-face (every "s" looks like an "f") are a challenge to read comfortably.

Minderwiz
22-07-2011, 08:45
This is an important point to make with the tarot community, and I've taken it up at least once before on that forum. Many who use an astrological spread - and even some authors who should know better - indiscriminately swap sign attributes with house attributes in their interpretations, even when they set out to explain qualities clearly within the province of the houses.

It's not just a problem with Tarot readers, it's a problem with many Astrologers - who use what's referred to as the Astrological Alphabet (or ABC) who seem to think that, e.g.

Aries= Mars= 1st House

There is NO such relationship in Astrological theory, it's a device used to help beginners and it's a bad device because most of them take it as definitive rather than realising it's great limitations.



I have very little unfiltered knowledge of Chaldean astrology, so I can't really relate to these planetary house assignments. I'm interested in your reference to Lilly, though; my oldest published work on astrology is William Lilly's 1647 "Christian Astrology" (it has nothing to do with Christianity as far as I can tell), a facsimile edition lavishly re-published by Regulus in 1985. Does the "co-significator" reference come from that or elsewhere? I haven't penetrated far into it since the archaic style and type-face (every "s" looks like an "f") are a challenge to read comfortably.

Chaldean order is that used originally by Mesopotamian Astrologers and entering into Hellenistic Astrology. It orders planets from the Furthest from Earth (Saturn for them) to that nearest the Earth (the Moon) The full order is:

Saturn, Jupiter, Mars, Sun, Venus, Mercury, Moon.

(this doesn't fit the Heliocentric model but is at the foundation of much of Astrological method and theory and does reflect the speed of observed movement of the planets - so it's effectively slowest to fastest.

The Regulus edition I think is a facsimile but you should find the term used in Chapter 7 (pp 50-57 of the original edition. He actually uses the older English version 'consignificator' There are now editions that use modern print and are much easier to read.

Incidentally if you move on the Chapter 8 on the planets, you'll see that Lilly treats them in the chaldean sequence.