PDA

View Full Version : Planets at the end of a house...


Saturness
22-07-2011, 02:02
I am sorry if this question seems stupid. But it's really confusing me.

In the latest natal chart I did for myself, using a sofware, it showed Saturn as being in Sagittarius 2151'54. I have Sagittarius rising, and the cusp of the 1st house is in Sagittarius 2356'09. (Placidus)

But that's not my problem. The thing is that I have always felt that Saturn has an influence in my life that resembles strongly a 1st house placement too. I began to research to see if the chart could be wrong, or maybe the time of my birth (checked birth certificate and all)... and then I stumbled upon this:

On the site astro.com, they say that if a planet is at the end of a house, it is interpreted as if it was in the following house.

Is that so? Is this a common practice amongst astrologers, or just something a few do?

I am in doubt to be honest... even if Saturn is THAT close to the ascendant cusp (2!), doesn't it have to 'cross the line' to be in the following house? Of maybe being so close to the cusp makes it influence both of the houses (in my case, the 12th and the 1st)?

Thank you for helping me with this. Must be something obvious, but as usual I cannot get it, lol! :)

214red
22-07-2011, 02:07
I am not the best at astrology, but i do feel the influence spreads if the planet is near, even if it doesnt slip over the line. I even find horoscopes now are putting decans so showing that different degrees of the sign mean a different horoscope.

Its that also about orbs?

lilangel09
22-07-2011, 09:14
Personally, I don't move them. I read the planets as they lay. The reason you may feel it belongs in First House is because Saturn is conjunct your ASC, which can make it feel like a First House placement. As a result of it being in the Twelfth conjunct your ASC, it will add some Twelfth House influence along with the planet conjunct your rising.

Some astrologers will move planets into the next cusp. Either way works. It's preference, like orbs.

Saturness
22-07-2011, 13:50
I am not the best at astrology, but i do feel the influence spreads if the planet is near, even if it doesnt slip over the line. I even find horoscopes now are putting decans so showing that different degrees of the sign mean a different horoscope.

Oh, I don't even know how to interpret decans very well. Sometimes I worry that too much detail makes the chart more confusing than 'individual'. Planets, houses and aspects provide plenty of information I guess. :)

But of course, I haven't arrived at decans in my study yet so perhaps I'm missing something very interesting!

I read that when a planet is too close to the cusp, some astrologer consider as if it has influence of the two houses. The one it's leaving, and the one it's entering.


Personally, I don't move them. I read the planets as they lay. The reason you may feel it belongs in First House is because Saturn is conjunct your ASC, which can make it feel like a First House placement. As a result of it being in the Twelfth conjunct your ASC, it will add some Twelfth House influence along with the planet conjunct your rising.

Some astrologers will move planets into the next cusp. Either way works. It's preference, like orbs.

I had not thought about ASC/Saturn conjunct feeling as a 1st house placement. It makes a LOT of sense. Like I said, I began to think that something about my birth time was wrong, because I felt that Saturn should be in the first house, not the twelfth. But now that you mention it, it makes sense... hum...



Thank you! Any other opinions on this matter are welcome!
Help this silly student! :D

Minderwiz
22-07-2011, 19:53
Traditionally it was a common practice to treat a planet which was less than 5 degrees from a House cusp as belonging to that house. This practice seems to have evolved in medieval times and was common by the Seventeenth Century. Astrologers who use traditional methods still use this practice but I've also seen quite a few Modern Astrologers also use it.

I would certainly treat Saturn so close to the Ascendant as being first House and indeed I have the same feature in my own chart.

The only time that this would not have been done as a matter of course would be if the sign boundary lay between the planet and the cusp. For example if your Saturn had been at, say, 27 degrees Sagittarius but the Ascendant was at 1 degree Capricorn. In Hellenistic Astrology and Vedic Astrology, whole sign houses are used and the same practice was/is applied - indeed in both those cases, the whole of Sagittarius would be your first House and no 'crossing over' of sign boundaries would be allowed.

The issue of decans/Face is quite separate and is one of several methods of evaluating the strength of a planet from its position in a sign.

Saturness
23-07-2011, 02:31
Traditionally it was a common practice to treat a planet which was less than 5 degrees from a House cusp as belonging to that house. This practice seems to have evolved in medieval times and was common by the Seventeenth Century. Astrologers who use traditional methods still use this practice but I've also seen quite a few Modern Astrologers also use it.

I would certainly treat Saturn so close to the Ascendant as being first House and indeed I have the same feature in my own chart.

Perhaps it evolved from the fact that the exact time of an event was difficult to know for SURE in the past (well, it still is...)? Then you had to have margin for error?

Still, would you consider that Saturn might have influence in the 12th House, since it's the one it is "leaving"? Or would you priorize the influece it has in the 1st House? Which House, in your experience, should be taken more in account in this case?


The only time that this would not have been done as a matter of course would be if the sign boundary lay between the planet and the cusp. For example if your Saturn had been at, say, 27 degrees Sagittarius but the Ascendant was at 1 degree Capricorn. In Hellenistic Astrology and Vedic Astrology, whole sign houses are used and the same practice was/is applied - indeed in both those cases, the whole of Sagittarius would be your first House and no 'crossing over' of sign boundaries would be allowed..

Thank you so much for this! I did not know that, that's very valuable information! :)


The issue of decans/Face is quite separate and is one of several methods of evaluating the strength of a planet from its position in a sign.

I think I'll have to find a book about decans, because I only have slightest notions about it... do you think it's a good completement for intepreting a chart?

Minderwiz
23-07-2011, 06:26
Perhaps it evolved from the fact that the exact time of an event was difficult to know for SURE in the past (well, it still is...)? Then you had to have margin for error?

Still, would you consider that Saturn might have influence in the 12th House, since it's the one it is "leaving"? Or would you priorize the influece it has in the 1st House? Which House, in your experience, should be taken more in account in this case?

No, it's not related to inaccurate birth times (though as you say, these are often a real headache), The reason for saying that is that the chart would be rectified to find the 'right' time (though even today rectification is not a certain process).

I'd always treat Saturn in these circumstances as having much more effect in the First House. If the decision was marginal (say 4 degrees 30 minutes up to the limit of 5 degrees, then I'd allow a small influence in the.



I think I'll have to find a book about decans, because I only have slightest notions about it... do you think it's a good completement for intepreting a chart?

The decans are very ancient and are of Egyptian origin. The Egyptians were (as far as we know) the first culture to adopt a civil year based on the Sun cycle rather than the lunar cycle. They produced a calendar of 12 30 day months, with 5 feast days. Each 30 day month was easily divided into 3 ten day periods. For more details see:

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/heritage/egyptians2.html

There is more than one system of decans. Traditionally Decan (which used to be referred to as Face) was the lowest level of essential dignity - that is the strength of a planet from its placement by sign. The system used was quite simple Starting with Aries the first decan or Face was ruled by Mars, the sign ruler, and every subsequent decan was allocated to a planet following the chaldean order. So the second decan of Aries went to the Sun, the third to Venus, then the first decan of Taurus went to Mercury, the second to the Moon, the third to Saturn, the first of Gemini to Jupiter, and the second to Mars. This sequence continued right the way through the zodiac ending with the third decan of Pisces being ruled by Mars.

Vedic Astrology also uses decans (called Drekkana) but they use a different set of rulerships, keeping to the Sign ruler for the first Drekkana is the sign ruler, and then the rulers of the remaining two signs of the element in order - so for Aries, it becomes Mars, Sun, Jupiter and for Taurus Venus, Mercury, Saturn.

I've seen the Vedic system used in Western Astrology, often by Astrologers who are unaware of where it comes from but also by some who see no issue at all in taking methods from totally different cultures and systems. In the vedic drekkana the signs are measured sidereally rather than tropically and Vedic sign descriptions are very unlike Modern Western ones.

You might also come across other variants. Both the Western Tradition and the Vedic Tradition do not use the outer planets, so there's no place for Uranus, Neptune and Pluto. But I'm sure if you look you'll find these planets substituted into a variant of the Vedic drekkana, for the rulers of Aquarius, Pisces and Scorpio respectively.

If you are going to end up adopting them, try to be consistent, in terms of methodology, especially if you are combining Astrology with other mantic arts. You should find that that appeals to your Saturnine sense of order and structure anyway.

Libra8ca
23-07-2011, 11:40
I prefer using the one sign / one house system used in Vedic astrology and I do use it with the sidereal zodiac. I find it to be quite accurate and actually simpler to use; and I like simple :D

Just for research purposes. it would be interesting to find out for Marina if Saturn is in the first house in Vedic astrology (using the sidereal zodiac).

Minderwiz
23-07-2011, 20:38
I prefer using the one sign / one house system used in Vedic astrology and I do use it with the sidereal zodiac. I find it to be quite accurate and actually simpler to use; and I like simple :D

Just for research purposes. it would be interesting to find out for Marina if Saturn is in the first house in Vedic astrology (using the sidereal zodiac).

That's a very interesting point! So much so that I reached immediately for Solar Fire to check. From the quoted position and using Marina's profile, I cast a chart for the date and approximate place and time.

The answer depends on which ayanamsa you use!

I tried all 15 options and got a 10:5 break in favour of Saturn being in the first House.

Now, taking all 15 as equally valid is itself open to challenge, so we have to be careful about the result of this test but it does show an interesting light on using the sidereal zodiac - there's no universal agreement on where it starts and that can have a significant effect on some charts. The same argument of course can be levelled at Western tropical charts where the house divisions can also give rise to planets falling in different houses - though all Western tropical systems agree on the angles - and of course not all Western Astrologers, use the 5 degree 'rule'.

I think as long as you are systematic and apply the same ayanamsa to all charts and work to the same methodology, then there's not really a major issue here, but you will get a slightly different take than other Astrologers (who themselves may not agree) and that's the way it's always been.

Saturness
24-07-2011, 03:42
No, it's not related to inaccurate birth times (though as you say, these are often a real headache), The reason for saying that is that the chart would be rectified to find the 'right' time (though even today rectification is not a certain process).

I'd always treat Saturn in these circumstances as having much more effect in the First House. If the decision was marginal (say 4 degrees 30 minutes up to the limit of 5 degrees, then I'd allow a small influence in the.

Interesting! I suppose the important thing is to be consistent in your practice regarding to this, or else it can be confusing. I read that some people consider that a planet in this position has influence over the two houses, but I wondered if that wouldn't give that same planet way too much strength in the chart....

I have an older book on astrology, and the description of Saturn in the 12th House was a bit scary (lets say the words "mental institution" and "hidden enemies" came up way too often), LOL! I actually own it because the dramatic descriptions make me grin, but the poor Saturn has been considered a villain for many years, hasn't he? ;)


The decans are very ancient and are of Egyptian origin. The Egyptians were (as far as we know) the first culture to adopt a civil year based on the Sun cycle rather than the lunar cycle. They produced a calendar of 12 30 day months, with 5 feast days. Each 30 day month was easily divided into 3 ten day periods. For more details see:

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/heritage/egyptians2.html

There is more than one system of decans. Traditionally Decan (which used to be referred to as Face) was the lowest level of essential dignity - that is the strength of a planet from its placement by sign. The system used was quite simple Starting with Aries the first decan or Face was ruled by Mars, the sign ruler, and every subsequent decan was allocated to a planet following the chaldean order. So the second decan of Aries went to the Sun, the third to Venus, then the first decan of Taurus went to Mercury, the second to the Moon, the third to Saturn, the first of Gemini to Jupiter, and the second to Mars. This sequence continued right the way through the zodiac ending with the third decan of Pisces being ruled by Mars.

Vedic Astrology also uses decans (called Drekkana) but they use a different set of rulerships, keeping to the Sign ruler for the first Drekkana is the sign ruler, and then the rulers of the remaining two signs of the element in order - so for Aries, it becomes Mars, Sun, Jupiter and for Taurus Venus, Mercury, Saturn.

I've seen the Vedic system used in Western Astrology, often by Astrologers who are unaware of where it comes from but also by some who see no issue at all in taking methods from totally different cultures and systems. In the vedic drekkana the signs are measured sidereally rather than tropically and Vedic sign descriptions are very unlike Modern Western ones.

You might also come across other variants. Both the Western Tradition and the Vedic Tradition do not use the outer planets, so there's no place for Uranus, Neptune and Pluto. But I'm sure if you look you'll find these planets substituted into a variant of the Vedic drekkana, for the rulers of Aquarius, Pisces and Scorpio respectively.

If you are going to end up adopting them, try to be consistent, in terms of methodology, especially if you are combining Astrology with other mantic arts. You should find that that appeals to your Saturnine sense of order and structure anyway.

Oh boy, now that's sounds complicated! :bugeyed:
I know that some people use this idea of decans with tarot too... I'll have to find more information on it! Thanks for the basic explanation though, I wouldn't have knows where to begin!


I prefer using the one sign / one house system used in Vedic astrology and I do use it with the sidereal zodiac. I find it to be quite accurate and actually simpler to use; and I like simple :D

Just for research purposes. it would be interesting to find out for Marina if Saturn is in the first house in Vedic astrology (using the sidereal zodiac).

I'm not very acquainted with Vedic astrology, because we lack material about it here where I live. But I'm curious now and I'll do so research about it, even if just for the sake of learning and broadening my horizons! :)

I was going to give my detailed information for you to check, but I see Minderwitz already did the test, lol! :D There is so much in astrology that I wonder if I'll ever be able to learn it all (or at least all the basic stuff in a chart, which is already a LOT in itself!).

Minderwiz
24-07-2011, 05:28
I have an older book on astrology, and the description of Saturn in the 12th House was a bit scary (lets say the words "mental institution" and "hidden enemies" came up way too often), LOL! I actually own it because the dramatic descriptions make me grin, but the poor Saturn has been considered a villain for many years, hasn't he? ;)

Well Saturn is never easy but success usually requires some discipline and application as well as talent and without Saturn you would not get it. Actually in Traditional Astrology (up to the eighteenth century) Saturn in the twelfth was actually quite good - in that he's kept nicely out of the way of the main areas of life (though obviously aspects can modify that)




Oh boy, now that's sounds complicated! :bugeyed:
I know that some people use this idea of decans with tarot too... I'll have to find more information on it! Thanks for the basic explanation though, I wouldn't have knows where to begin!


To be honest, I'd put them on one side until you feel happy with all the rest. They can add some useful information but they will not give you the key stuff, all they will do as give a little more colour.



I'm not very acquainted with Vedic astrology, because we lack material about it here where I live. But I'm curious now and I'll do so research about it, even if just for the sake of learning and broadening my horizons! :)

There's an awful lot to Vedic Astrology - to over simplify, it's basically the system of Astrology that originated in India, though with a large cross fusion with Hellenistic Astrology through the conquests of Alexander the Great. It's closely related to Hinduism and if you are interested in Indian philosophy and beliefs, then you will find it very interesting. However don't try to learn both Western Astrology and Vedic Astrology at the same time - you'll get hopelessly confused. Do some background reading and then make your choice of which you will concentrate on based on your own interests and outlook.

(quote=Marina]
I was going to give my detailed information for you to check, but I see Minderwitz already did the test, lol! :D There is so much in astrology that I wonder if I'll ever be able to learn it all (or at least all the basic stuff in a chart, which is already a LOT in itself!).[/QUOTE]

Well I did an approximation based on the last time Saturn was in Sagittarius at that degree (which ties in with your given age) and used Brasilia as it's the capital of Brazil to approximate the location. Now Brazil is a very big country, so I'm in no way claiming it as accurate but it's a very good approximation (unless you were born in Europe and emigrated LOL)

As a beginner, keep to the basics - get familiar with planets, signs and houses and use those together with major aspects. Once you know what you are doing you can start to add the bells and whistles if you feel the need. But often trying to use a whole battery of techniques leaves you not seeing the wood for the trees. The basics will show you the wood and then you can add in the bells and whistles to get some idea of the trees that make up the wood.

Libra8ca
24-07-2011, 22:32
That's a very interesting point! So much so that I reached immediately for Solar Fire to check. From the quoted position and using Marina's profile, I cast a chart for the date and approximate place and time.

The answer depends on which ayanamsa you use!


That sounds like Saturn is also borderline between the 12th and the 1st house in the Vedic chart. I was hoping that the position would be clear.

My planets are in the same houses regardless of the ayanamsa used.