View Full Version : "high" magick vs "low" magick
I have lots of questions, and not even sure where to post, so bear with me.
I'm interested in the comparison of Ceremonial Magick (High Magick...terminology?) vs. ....what...folk magick? Low magick? Heathen Magick?
I'm sort of a beginner at this stuff. 25 years ago, I started getting into Tarot, and then I naturally and spontaneously started doing impromptu rituals...what i would call "meaninful acts" or ceremonies around signifcant events in my life. Then, about 15 years ago, I started doing QC, LBRP, Middle Pillar, Circulation of the body of light, and a "fountain"...I did these for oh, I dunno, maybe a year... and then I got "blown off course" for about 15 years.
Now, to my joy, I am getting back to it all, and also, to my joy, I've learned thru...I dunno, an inner teacher (?) that the pathways I established way back then, are still there, I don't have to start over all from scratch, and I just have to "dust it off" and get back into it.
Back then I was also studying (on my own for a coupla years, then thru B.O.T.A) Kabbalah...which is probably what got me into doing the "ceremonial" style of magick.
I guess I'm wondering the benefits/differences between the two paths (High/Low) and trying to figure out where I am at with all of this...I haven't done that many "spells" or actual "practical" magic...although there are exeptions....I understand the principal of focusing on correspondences...and also that Ceremonial seems to take a lot more extended focus.
Further, I read a book about 3 years ago (Hulses book on the Cube of Space) that rocked my world...and it seemed like pagan folk magic pertained to the north side and the ceremonial to the south.... I feel attacted/drawn to both of these systems... I suppose folks blend bastardize them quite a bit?
Just interested...
I'm a trained musician and spent my young years training in Classical Music, and then later got into folk music...a similar comparison...Art Music vs Folk music.
I'm also wondering if I should get involved in the local GD group here in Denver...there's also a BOTA group....
ANy and all feedback/disussion would be much relished and devoured by me.
Thanks.
(perhaps someone up to it would be willing to do a reading for me around these issues?)
Laura Borealis
28-07-2011, 03:52
.....
Always Wondering
28-07-2011, 07:44
http://www.amazon.com/Low-Magick-Your-Head-Just/dp/0738719242
You might want check out Lon Milo DuQuette's book on low magick. I found it very fun and helpful.
AW
Thanks AW I've put it on my list!
moderndayruth
28-07-2011, 10:27
I am reading Lon Milo's Illustrated Goetia - in first chapters he explains the difference between the two (high and low), while the very book is about the latter.
Barleywine
28-07-2011, 11:05
I don't know what current opinion of him is, but Scott Cunningham wrote a few books on "low magic" - he called it "folk magic" - before his death. I have a couple; "Earth Power: Techniques of Natural Magic" is interesting and is probably the most appropriate to mention here. It's all about simple tools and simple spells; he specifically eschews elaborate rituals.
Barleywine
Yeah, I read some of his stuff years ago...
moderndayruth
28-07-2011, 12:43
ok, a short excerpt from the book
"Goetia is the intentional conjuration of spiritual beings who are, by definition, Fallen Angels, Evil Spirits and Demons... From their infernal abodes these naughty Spirits are called forth
to act as personal servants to the Goetic magician to extend his power and execute his will on Earth. The magician must be ever vigilant to the wiles of the Spirits. If he is unskilled or loses control even for an instant, he runs the risk of being obsessed, possessed oreven destroyed. This sounds uncomfortably like Black Magick. Such behavior is certainly beneath the altruistic purity of purposethat characterize the quest and disciplines of High Magick and can
serve only to bring out the lowest qualities of the practitioner's character..."
Lon Milo further describes a difficult financial situation he was facing back then , which he could not improve by normal means; so he wanted to perform a Goetic evocation to improve his material life. Further on he describes how his spiritual teacher - a senior officer with Eastern Mysticism and Western Hermeticism (whose teacher had been a personal student of Aleister Crowley and a resident at his (in)famous Abbey of Thelema in Sicily ) - reacted to his asking whether she personally has performed Goetic evocation - she answered "Certainly not! That is Low Magick. "
Lon Milo DuQuette; Afeister Crowfey' s Illuustrated Goetia
I am not sure about this particular definition, don't have a firm opinion in this camp - just sharing thoughts on what i am reading at the moment ;)
According to one definition high magic is ceremonial type magic that deals with angels and demons, and low magic is of a more casual, folklore or witch type nature: I think this is the most popular distinction (according to which the Goetia, albeit it deals with demons, would fall under the category of 'high magic')... not an easy definition to apply in practice as folk and shamanic type magic is often itself highly scripted and ritualized, and the distinction that is often made more often appears to be between elitist, self-righteous stance of judeo-christian practicioners of 'practical kabbalah' or 'hermetic' type magic staking claim to the moral high ground over the rest...
Another definition defines high magic as 'theurgic', with knowledge and union with God(s) as it aim, or which at least places supernatural power in that of the other, the divine; as compared to 'goetic', low magic in which the practitioner seeks development of personal supernatural powers in pursuit of selfish materialist ends and the control of others.
The line between the two is often a fine and confusing one...
According to one definition high magic is ceremonial type magic that deals with angels and demons, and low magic is of a more casual, folklore or witch type nature: I think this is the most popular distinction (according to which the Goetia, albeit it deals with demons, would fall under the category of 'high magic').
Another definition defines high magic as theurgic, with knowledge and union with God(s) as it aim, or which at least places supernatural power in that of the other, the divine; as compared to low magic in which the practitioner seeks development of personal supernatural powers in pursuit of selfish materialist ends and the control of others.
The line between the two is often a fine and confusing one...
Bingo! :thumbsup:
Lumpy's original question is a mixture of both and therefore difficult to answer.
Saturday dad ---
I wait outside the bookies
with a can of pop,
at church we light a candle
for his horse
moderndayruth
28-07-2011, 20:06
According to one definition high magic is ceremonial type magic that deals with angels and demons, and low magic is of a more casual, folklore or witch type nature: I think this is the most popular distinction (according to which the Goetia, albeit it deals with demons, would fall under the category of 'high magic')... not an easy definition to apply in practice as folk and shamanic type magic is often itself highly scripted and ritualized, and the distinction that is often made more often appears to be between elitist, self-righteous stance of judeo-christian practicioners of 'practical kabbalah' or 'hermetic' type magic staking claim to the moral high ground over the rest...
Another definition defines high magic as 'theurgic', with knowledge and union with God(s) as it aim, or which at least places supernatural power in that of the other, the divine; as compared to 'goetic', low magic in which the practitioner seeks development of personal supernatural powers in pursuit of selfish materialist ends and the control of others.
The line between the two is often a fine and confusing one...
Kwaw!!!! :heart:
I hoped you'll pop in!
Hhaha, my folks do say that kosher Kabbalah is magic - but no divisions high/law or whatsoever... i need to remember how does my teacher refer to what Bilaam practiced (before becoming a prophet that is) and what Balak practiced and what killed him at the end ... they don't consider it the same thing (and that would definitely be a no-no ;) )
The thing is that when you study what's written in Zohar about Balak and his wicked practices - it does say that he was warned by God...
so that excludes him dealing exclusively with demons (i don't think its possible either), maybe it reffers to the means by which the goal is obtained? :confused:
Oh, and what Lon Milo writes is mostly tongue in cheek! ;)
Great verse, Kwaw
eta for typo
Kwaw!!!! :heart:
I hoped you'll pop in!
Hhaha, my folks do say that kosher Kabbalah is magic - but no divisions high/law or whatsoever...
There are some variation of viewpoints among 'kosher kabbalists' on the subject of 'practical kabbalah' (where such encompasses 'magical' like practices) I believe? Some liken it to black magic and by most is at the least, not recommended - others allowing some exceptions (such as use of talismans) within prescribed limits and qualifications.
One could say I suppose/imagine that there is a division in kosher kabbalah/magic between that which is permissible and that which is forbidden ?
so that excludes him dealing exclusively with demons
but can, at least according to some kabbalists if I recall correctly (by Cordovero for example?) include demons among the maggidim (spirit messengers) that a kabbalist may communicate with? Transcriptions and descriptions of such relationships do not appear to much differ at face value to those of a John Dee, or the 'hidden masters' of theosophy, or to the initiates of the Golden Dawn... though some or all of whom might claim a difference in substance and authenticity.
Great verse, Kwaw
Thanks :)
but might, at least according to some kabbalists if I recall correctly (by Cordovero for example?) include demons among the maggidim (spirit messengers) that a kabbalist may communicate with?
As noted here for example?
http://jhom.com/topics/voice/magid.htm
Bingo! :thumbsup:
Lumpy's original question is a mixture of both and therefore difficult to answer.
Nevertheless, I'm learning a lot!
moderndayruth
29-07-2011, 00:12
As noted here for example?
http://jhom.com/topics/voice/magid.htm
Oy! I have an idea of Dibbukim ("evil spirits" for the lack of better term), that i don't wish upon anyone. Lon Milo also quotes that famous saying from Talmud - if we knew what demons were around, the existence as it is would cease immediately - now that's in my words, can't be bothered to look up the original. :P
I did not ever heard that someone would want to invoke a dibbuk - basically, you want to get rid of them as soon as possible.
"It has been taught: Abba Benjamin says, If the eye had the power to see them, no creature could endure the demons. Abaye says: They are more numerous than we are and they surround us like the ridge around a field. R. Huna says: Every one among us has a thousand on his left hand and ten thousand on his right hand. Raba says: The crushing of the crowd in the Kallah lectures comes from them. Fatigue in the knees comes from them. The wearing out of the clothes of the scholars is due to their rubbing against them. The bruising of the feet comes from them." Berakhot 6a
http://talmudcomics.net/berachot%206a.jpg
moderndayruth
29-07-2011, 00:28
"It has been taught: Abba Benjamin says, If the eye had the power to see them, no creature could endure the demons. Abaye says: They are more numerous than we are and they surround us like the ridge around a field. R. Huna says: Every one among us has a thousand on his left hand and ten thousand on his right hand. Raba says: The crushing of the crowd in the Kallah lectures comes from them. Fatigue in the knees comes from them. The wearing out of the clothes of the scholars is due to their rubbing against them. The bruising of the feet comes from them." Berakhot 6a
I am in awe of your knowledge. Thank you for this.
Cursing with Roosters - use of low magic leaves you cleaning up crap:
http://talmudcomics.net/berachot%207a.jpg
moderndayruth
29-07-2011, 00:50
Cursing with Roosters - use of low magic leaves you cleaning up crap:
http://talmudcomics.net/berachot%207a.jpg
Lol!!! :P No pun intended, but i think i am too chicken for most of it. The other thing is that i don't like to make decisions and i don't want to bear the consequences... i know that i am given what i can handle and exactly what i need...
That being said - i feel some empowerment from mere reading the texts (i mean other than the 'mainstream' ones) and also from doing couple of benign rituals, such as the lesser banishing ritual; my dreams are more lucid and that matters big time to me.
Now, i am crazy enough to do the Goetic invocation (i did much crazier things ;) ), but its truly ceremonial and no way getting around it, you do need all the tools; so its either spending months in making them or investing couple of thousand of bucks into buying ... hm.
That drive i had only for my primary path, you know, where you feel you can move mountains and are ready for anything to get there... not sure i have the same desire here.
Always Wondering
29-07-2011, 04:11
Thanks AW I've put it on my list!
Your welcome. Great topic. I'm learning lots also.
AW
moderndayruth
29-07-2011, 04:57
http://www.amazon.com/Low-Magick-Your-Head-Just/dp/0738719242
You might want check out Lon Milo DuQuette's book on low magick. I found it very fun and helpful.
AW
Thanks for this recommendation, i am reading it right now and it is awesome! I love his writing style! It seems that he advances the theses that there is no high and low magic, but high and low... magician, right? (I am at page 20 right now, that's what i understood so far.)
Seems to me that the difference is the level of preparation/education/training the magician goes thru before dabbling in stuff we really know very little about. That perhaps the ceremonial magician is more "protected" by all the years of work prior to attempting some of the workings that might be carried out.
Sort of like going to a Specialist versus going to the little old lady with bottles of strange herbs down in her cellar...
Seems to me that the difference is the level of preparation/education/training the magician goes thru before dabbling in stuff we really know very little about. That perhaps the ceremonial magician is more "protected" by all the years of work prior to attempting some of the workings that might be carried out.I partly agree. But the question remains, why does a person have to go through all this preparation and training in the first place? If simple methods are effective, why go to all the hassle of learning elaborate and complex magical systems?
The trouble is that we modern humans are elaborate and complex beings. The sophistication of our minds means that the simple techniques employed by our ancestors might not work for us today. In many ways it's like asking a grown up adult to accept the reality of Santa. Unless you have the ability to revert back to a child-like mental state, or are a very superstitious (almost the same thing really), then it's going to be hard to get simple techniques to work. The developed mind of most modern humans will automatically start raising objections and nullify the whole thing.
Of course you can argue that this is a case for a return to a more primative way of life. But it's a trade off. The more primative you are, the narrower your outlets of expression become. The more complex you are the harder it becomes to "plug in", but your possibilities are infinitely greater.
If all else fails there's still sex and drugs. :laugh:
moderndayruth
29-07-2011, 07:29
If all else fails there's still sex and drugs. :laugh:
Well, i believe that's first, not last! :P I mean, how else does one develop interest in altered states of mind etc.? :confused: ;)
Well, i believe that's first, not last! :P I mean, how else does one develop interest in altered states of mind etc.? :confused: ;)
True. :laugh:
Although there's a world a difference between a fumble and grope in the dark and tantric sex. And merely getting stoned isn't exactly spiritual. Unless waking up in a puddle of your own vomit counts as a psychedelic experience. "Wow, look at all those trippy colours dude". :laugh:
"Wow, look at all those trippy colours dude". :laugh:
Lol...Jimi really "sang the technicolor aria" didn't he?
But we seem to have STRAYED somewhat...
The point made by Aeon418 The trouble is that we modern humans are elaborate and complex beings. The sophistication of our minds means that the simple techniques employed by our ancestors might not work for us today. In many ways it's like asking a grown up adult to accept the reality of Santa. Unless you have the ability to revert back to a child-like mental state, or are a very superstitious (almost the same thing really), then it's going to be hard to get simple techniques to work. The developed mind of most modern humans will automatically start raising objections and nullify the whole thing.
is a valid one...they call a childs' thinking "magical thinking", after all. I've heard it said that in Ireland, the educated, and Christian, cannot see the "gentry"...but the local people who are less 'refined' can. Such "folks" would be much more likely to use 'folk magic.'
It's like the parallel I made between classical music--which grew out of church music (it's written down) and is often patronized by the elite class and educated-- versus 'folk' music which is more...organic.
I remember Joeseph Campbell, in his interviews with Bill Moyers, making the point about language, that there had to be different words for everything, depending on if it belonged to the elite classes or the poor.
moderndayruth
29-07-2011, 09:23
I remember Joeseph Campbell, in his interviews with Bill Moyers, making the point about language, that there had to be different words for everything, depending on if it belonged to the elite classes or the poor.
Ehem... but those would still label the same object or idea, if you see what i mean; those would be just two differently conditioned labels for inherently identical matter;
i am somehow getting the feeling its the same with magic...
I mean, a pot is still a vessel with certain use - even if you call it a vase or something else.
(You can choose to not name it too.)
So basically, the difference would be in people naming the pot - not in the pot itself (if we follow that logic, not that i would know. )
Barleywine
29-07-2011, 10:50
Ehem... but those would still label the same object or idea, if you see what i mean; those would be just two differently conditioned labels for inherently identical matter;
i am somehow getting the feeling its the same with magic...
I mean, a pot is still a vessel with certain use - even if you call it a vase or something else.
(You can choose to not name it too.)
So basically, the difference would be in people naming the pot - not in the pot itself (if we follow that logic, not that i would know. )
Ah, but if you called it a "chamber pot" instead of a "sauce pot," you would have a whole different set of associations, even if you raided the pots-and-pans cupboard in time of dire need }) Under normal circumstances I doubt anyone would confuse the two, though. (And yes, my relatives in Canada still used those back in the '50s when they had no indoor plumbing . . .)
moderndayruth
29-07-2011, 11:49
Ah, but if you called it a "chamber pot" instead of a "sauce pot," you would have a whole different set of associations,
yes, yes, yes... but pot's usage wouldn't change if you confused what its called and got all the wrong associations! })
And yes, my relatives in Canada still used those back in the '50s when they had no indoor plumbing . . .
Oh, at my late granmother's (and almost everyone's grandmother at this part of the world) house too! ;)
I did some reading online meanwhile and honestly, the various ways of differentiating high and low magic don't really make sense to me.
Somewhere i read that like once upon a time magic was one thing and one thing only; then somewhere between 1000 and 1300 ad practicing magic became taboo, the "high" magicians continued to justify practising theirs by christianising it and making it some how "higher" as they dealt with "angels" and "demons"...
Honestly, if you look up at youtube videos of lesser banishing ritual - and if you've been to a Christian Orthodox service, there seems to be quite a resemblance...
Always Wondering
29-07-2011, 12:03
Thanks for this recommendation, i am reading it right now and it is awesome! I love his writing style! It seems that he advances the theses that there is no high and low magic, but high and low... magician, right? (I am at page 20 right now, that's what i understood so far.)
You're welcome.
Yes, these are the impressions I remember and one of the reasons I enjoyed the book.
Unless waking up in a puddle of your own vomit counts as a psychedelic experience. "Wow, look at all those trippy colours dude".
:laugh:
Oh, but it is soooo humbling.
AW
moderndayruth
29-07-2011, 14:00
At occult underground http://www.occult-underground.com/regardie.html there are free ebooks by Israel Regardie*, i think that his "Art and Meaning of Magic " might be particularly relevant for the topic of this thread.
(I think so, i just scanned first couple of pages, must get some sleep! :D )
*
from wiki: Regardie is a principal reliable source for much of what is known about the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn. His writings and the students he taught or influenced provide much of the foundation for modern Western occultism. In addition to preserving the knowledge, Regardie also preserved a valid branch of the initiatory lineage of the Golden Dawn in America...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_Regardie
I did some reading online meanwhile and honestly, the various ways of differentiating high and low magic don't really make sense to me.
Join the club. :D
As far as I'm concerned the whole high/low thing is a creation of muddle headed New Age/Wiccan writers trying to link their very modern "old craft" to primative folk magic practices. Pour into the mix a hell broth of revisionist history, radical feminism, and a pinch of environmental issues and you've got ..... quite a mess.
Always Wondering
30-07-2011, 02:17
At occult underground http://www.occult-underground.com/regardie.html there are free ebooks by Israel Regardie*, i think that his "Art and Meaning of Magic " might be particularly relevant for the topic of this thread.
(I think so, i just scanned first couple of pages, must get some sleep! :D )
*
from wiki: Regardie is a principal reliable source for much of what is known about the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn. His writings and the students he taught or influenced provide much of the foundation for modern Western occultism. In addition to preserving the knowledge, Regardie also preserved a valid branch of the initiatory lineage of the Golden Dawn in America...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_Regardie
I really like Regardie, but I can't figure out why? Sometimes he puts me off, but it is worth it. He is a bit of an enigma to me.
Interesting fellow.
AW
Always Wondering
30-07-2011, 02:22
Join the club. :D
As far as I'm concerned the whole high/low thing is a creation of muddle headed New Age/Wiccan writers trying to link their very modern "old craft" to primative folk magic practices. Pour into the mix a hell broth of revisionist history, radical feminism, and a pinch of environmental issues and you've got ..... quite a mess.
High, low, black, white, the more I read, the more they a seem just names people throw at each other when they can't relate.
I am so confused I wouldn't know how to insult somebody. :laugh:
AW
High, low, black, white, the more I read, the more they a seem just names people throw at each other when they can't relate.
I am so confused I wouldn't know how to insult somebody. :laugh:
AW
LOL well that alone makes it compelling to learn more !
I really like Regardie, but I can't figure out why? Sometimes he puts me off, but it is worth it. He is a bit of an enigma to me.
Interesting fellow.He's great bedtime reading. Half a page is usually enough to knock me out for the full 8 hours. :laugh:
moderndayruth
30-07-2011, 06:22
He's great bedtime reading. Half a page is usually enough to knock me out for the full 8 hours. :laugh:
Good! At least i'll be saving on sleeping pills! (Seriously, i am taking magnolia extract, it is expensive! :rolleyes:
Here is an older post by ravenest with some breaktaking pictures:
http://www.tarotforum.net/showpost.php?p=874758&postcount=34
Now, how can we envoke ravenest in the thread here? })
I went once again through the stuff needed for Goetica - well its not that complicated as it seemed!
Who would be up to have an online study group here (if anyone that is)? :D
ravenest
02-08-2011, 11:09
Poof! here I appear
the triangle you neglected
so I can draw near
although often rejected.
HI. MDR. I seem to remember another thread about this high low stuff somewhere here? I think I posted a bit in that.
One way of looking at it: it doesnt really matter what you do but is it for a 'high purpose' or a 'low' one. According to one's own judgement iof course ;).
Ever heard the saying. "Thats a low act." Sorta like that. Magic/k is like anything else, some things will bring you down, others lift you up whether its a simple 'folk' rite or a sumptious techno extravaganza.
moderndayruth
02-08-2011, 11:33
Poof! here I appear
the triangle you neglected
so I can draw near
although often rejected.
Omg!
How cool is that?! :thumbsup: :D
HI. MDR. I seem to remember another thread about this high low stuff somewhere here? I think I posted a bit in that.
I am in the process of re-reading the older posts here - i'll probably come across it!
I found these pictures of yours from five years ago - and i was really impressed!
http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=61180&highlight=Goetia&page=4
I can feel ... well, stuff from merely looking at those pictures! Really powerful!
One way of looking at it: it doesnt really matter what you do but is it for a 'high purpose' or a 'low' one. According to one's own judgement iof course ;).
That's a tricky one. :)
Ever heard the saying. "Thats a low act." Sorta like that. Magic/k is like anything else, some things will bring you down, others lift you up whether its a simple 'folk' rite or a sumptious techno extravaganza.
Ok, this is quite some food for though, i need to mull over it more!
Thank you ravenest! :heart:
Chana Siegel
18-08-2011, 00:00
I haven't read his book on "low magick", but I heard DuQuette speaking about it on the podcast, "Occult of Personality" and he said that the low magick he performed under dire straits was for financial improvement in order to feed his wife and family. So how could this kind of magick pull one to a lower level?
I don't think it's about level as far as status or spiritual heirarchy...rather level of intricacy of preparation....
It's like a comparison in music between say, Beethoven and Folk music. One is not higher that the other, but one took much more time in the composing.
Or the difference between DaVinci and Grandma Moses in Art.
"High" magic involves years of study and each ritual/spellworking takes literally months of study and preparation. In "Low" magic, we might grab a few herbs and colored candles at the Magick shoppe and put something together in an afternoon.
And i am not qualified to make a judgement as to which is more effective. I think that's about the individual/s doing the spellwork.
I haven't read his book on "low magick", but I heard DuQuette speaking about it on the podcast, "Occult of Personality" and he said that the low magick he performed under dire straits was for financial improvement in order to feed his wife and family. So how could this kind of magick pull one to a lower level?Only if it were contrary to your Will. It's all relative, so the dichotomy of high magick versus low magick has no meaning outside the sphere of the individual magician. Action X in context Y may be just what is required for one person, but for someone else in different circumstances it may be completely wrong. Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
The only way the traditional concept of High vs Low can be understood is if you are working within a conceptual framework that has as one of it's postulates an absolute morality that is external to the magician. It may be worth bearing in mind that much of modern day magick originated in a dualistic Judeo-Christian context. ;)