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Saturness
18-09-2011, 02:50
Hi everyone!

I hope you are all well!

I have been keeping my astrology studies... slow but steady... and I have to confess that the amount of 'possibilities' in on natal chart is quite astounding. It seems to me that many times we have planet positions and aspects that show contradictory tendencies (or potentials) in one individual, and I am having a hard time telling which characteristic is stronger than the other.

In the book they often say that this or that planet gains more emphasis if it's "strongly aspected" but I'm finding difficulty in defining what that means. Does that mean that planet makes many aspects in the chart? Or that it's aspected to "important" celestial bodies like the sun and the moon? That is it in a compatible sign/house?

I think it's hard to say which aspects I should see as "stronger" than the others. I have no doubt that we can all have contradictory behaviors and potentials within us, and that those may appear in the natal chart, but I believe that usually one is more "evident" than the other. One weights more, has a bigger impact in the personality.

The writers make it seem so easy. :laugh: But when you first start analyzing charts (and so far I'm doing that only to be able to 'see' the signs, planets and houses 'in action'), you are confronted with downright opposing tendencies and it's hard to say which one dominates and which one is hidden... or undeveloped.

Is there a way to know this? What does 'strongly aspected' means? And 'afflicted'? Does 'afflicted' means weak or bad?

I wish the glossaries in the books would include these explanations! :P I've been looking desperately for book that would explain it to me, but since they don't I assume that this is a notion that comes with practice... still, I thought it wouldn't hurt to ask.


I thank you all in advance!

dadsnook2000
18-09-2011, 03:21
Yes, Marina, the natal chart can seem quite full of contradictions and offer confusing hints of one's potential. You need to consider several astrological issues:

FIRST, the natal chart, or most/many natal charts, are full of contradictions. Think of these as sets-of-complexities that make up or contribute to your personality and affect how you develop your character. Contradictions will sooner or later in one's life have to be balanced or prioritized in some manner. You may indeed "balance" them, or you may give one priority of expression, or choose to favor and express one contradictory factor over another. It is these processes that make you unique --- you choose how to contain, use and express your contradictions.

SECOND, know that you cannot express your potential all at once at any one time in your life. "Potential" is accompanied by "experience." The natal chart, by itself, doesn't really offer us much in terms of stating where we will be at any period in our life. We need to use other charts such as progressions, directions, returns and transits in relation to the natal chart. We use these other charts, with and without the natal chart, to determine and follow our "experiences" in life. Only as we experience life do we have the opportunity to develop our potential one bit at a time.

Each natal planet will-or-may be linked to other planets via aspects or other relationships. As that planet is emphasized or triggered on a day-to-day basis by transits or by other chart factors, that planet's meaning will be modified and expressed in some way to a greater or lessor extent. Life is built brick by brick. It takes a life time to live a life. A lot is likely to happen between the start of life and the end of life --- all of those changes and happenings will hopefully start to build up a fairly consistent flow in one broad direction and merge the complexities of both the natal chart and of life's experiences into a rich life.

Some advice would be to:

A) Not try to determine every complexity in your natal chart. What you see and what it means will change with astrological knowledge and over time as you change.

B) Keep you astrology simple. Stick with the basics and don't try to use everything you read in books.

C) Learn to read a seconday progression chart, a transit-to-natal chart. Progressions show slow development via changes in the natal chart as some planets separate and others come closer. These change the emphasis of how planets express themselves in a stronger or weaker manner. Transits represent opportunities for a natal planet to gain experience of expression by being modified (for a short period of time) by the influence of another planet. This is called "experience."

Dave

Haizea
18-09-2011, 23:06
Does that mean that planet makes many aspects in the chart? Or that it's aspected to "important" celestial bodies like the sun and the moon?

An author can mean anything, so we can't be sure unless we directly ask him/her. :D Anyhow, yes, "strongly aspected" should mean "many aspects", and aspects to Sun and Moon would always be the most important.

Minderwiz
19-09-2011, 08:24
Dave has given some sensible advice in keeping things simple, at least to start with. The more factors,such as objects, points and minor aspects you use, the greater the chance of running into conflicts when trying to read a chart. Experience will help but of course experience requires time and practice, so starting with the basics and using those is the best way forward.

I'd take 'strongly aspected' to mean close major aspects to between key planets. Key here would include the Ascendant ruler, Mercury and Moon, as well as Sun. Also close major aspects to the Ascendant, MC and possibly Part of Fortune.

Haizea
19-09-2011, 23:10
I have read Marina saying that she doesn't read the cards for her day, so I feel I have to tell her not to get into transits, progressions...descriptions in astrology are many times full with warnings of doom. If we don't want to know our future for the day...less we want to know it for a year. And it is really difficult to predict with predictive astrology (transits and progressions).

We can get scared.

Saturness
20-09-2011, 01:30
Thank you everyone for the answers! I am sorry for my delay in answering, I was away from the computer for most of the weekend. :)

FIRST, the natal chart, or most/many natal charts, are full of contradictions. Think of these as sets-of-complexities that make up or contribute to your personality and affect how you develop your character. Contradictions will sooner or later in one's life have to be balanced or prioritized in some manner. You may indeed "balance" them, or you may give one priority of expression, or choose to favor and express one contradictory factor over another. It is these processes that make you unique --- you choose how to contain, use and express your contradictions.

SECOND, know that you cannot express your potential all at once at any one time in your life. "Potential" is accompanied by "experience." The natal chart, by itself, doesn't really offer us much in terms of stating where we will be at any period in our life. We need to use other charts such as progressions, directions, returns and transits in relation to the natal chart. We use these other charts, with and without the natal chart, to determine and follow our "experiences" in life. Only as we experience life do we have the opportunity to develop our potential one bit at a time.

Yes, indeed. That's what I think to, that the charts are full of potentials, but how you manifest them depends on the situation in which you live and on your own choices. However, it seems to me that the charts also point of some 'situation' that the person may face in their lives, so I thought that maybe it could point to which potentials are more easily manifested and which ones would require a special 'inner work' so to speak.

I haven't jumped to progressions and transits yet because I am still trying to grasp the most basic astrology concepts. As I say, I mostly use natal charts (not my own yet!) as a way to see the planets and placements and aspects 'working' - I need to see the things 'alive' in order to learn, simply reading books doesn't do it for me. I don't think I have the competence to see the 'experience' part yet, but I completely agree with you that would be the best way to see if a certain potential is having the opportunity to be manifested or not. :)


Some advice would be to:

A) Not try to determine every complexity in your natal chart. What you see and what it means will change with astrological knowledge and over time as you change.

B) Keep you astrology simple. Stick with the basics and don't try to use everything you read in books.

C) Learn to read a seconday progression chart, a transit-to-natal chart. Progressions show slow development via changes in the natal chart as some planets separate and others come closer. These change the emphasis of how planets express themselves in a stronger or weaker manner. Transits represent opportunities for a natal planet to gain experience of expression by being modified (for a short period of time) by the influence of another planet. This is called "experience."

Thank you for the advice Dave, I'll keep them in mind. I plan to start learning transits and progressions as soon as I feel comfortable with the basic astrology, but I have to say that in the books, a hell-load seems like 'basic that you must know'. :laugh:


Dave has given some sensible advice in keeping things simple, at least to start with. The more factors,such as objects, points and minor aspects you use, the greater the chance of running into conflicts when trying to read a chart. Experience will help but of course experience requires time and practice, so starting with the basics and using those is the best way forward.

The truth is that I have been using only major aspects and the 10 'planets'. I have not been using Chiron, Lilith or any of these objects. I still don't really understand the Nodes, so I am not focusing on them yet. Yet, even amongst these basic things, I have a hard time telling if in a certain chart Mercury is a 'strongly aspected' planet, or if Saturn is strong etc. Hence my question. :)


I'd take 'strongly aspected' to mean close major aspects to between key planets. Key here would include the Ascendant ruler, Mercury and Moon, as well as Sun. Also close major aspects to the Ascendant, MC and possibly Part of Fortune.

I'll take these into account, as you say. I always thought that maybe aspects with the Ascendant, Sun and Moon could add strength to a certain planets, but I wasn't so sure. There's a lot that comes into play in a chart it seems. You can have a Planet conjuncted to the Sun, but in its fall sign, so I wouldn't know if the planet remains 'strong' because of the Sun or is weakened because of the Sign...

I love these complexities and I wish to understand them. I am really enjoying the brain work-out that is Astrology! ;)


I have read Marina saying that she doesn't read the cards for her day, so I feel I have to tell her not to get into transits, progressions...descriptions in astrology are many times full with warnings of doom. If we don't want to know our future for the day...less we want to know it for a year. And it is really difficult to predict with predictive astrology (transits and progressions).

Haizea, thank you, but actually the reason why I don't do daily readings has nothing to do with fear of the future. I simply do not find it useful to me, and I prefer to use my cards for more 'definite' questions. :) Of course I don't plan on sitting down and doing astrology work for myself daily, for similar reasons (and I wouldn't have the time, I barely have time for my morning prayers! :D).

Minderwiz
20-09-2011, 01:42
I have read Marina saying that she doesn't read the cards for her day, so I feel I have to tell her not to get into transits, progressions...descriptions in astrology are many times full with warnings of doom. If we don't want to know our future for the day...less we want to know it for a year. And it is really difficult to predict with predictive astrology (transits and progressions).

We can get scared.

As with all things, Astrology needs to be used in a sensible way. I don't do daily, monthly or annual predictions for myself or my family. It's not a matter of not wanting to know, it's because there are many different meanings to planets, configurations and chart features. Which meaning will be relevant depends much on what issues are going on in our lives and what our concerns are. So I will use predictive measures, for specific focussed questions and issues.

When I first got into Astrology one of the views was that the old practice of Astrology was full of doom and gloom and used words that could never be used in Modern practice, such as 'malefic'.

After some 40 + years on and off, I've come to the conclusion that it's actually modern Astrology which is laden with doom and gloom - just read some of the interpretations relating to Pluto and Neptune, indeed, as I've said before there were only two 'malefic planets' in the tradition, now there are five!

Life is not all doom and gloom, neither is it all strawberries and cream. For any prediction system, be it Astrological or Tarot or any other divinatory method we need to bear in mind that both good things and bad things happen but that in the main, life is not filled with extremes. We also need to bear in mind the context of someone's life. For someone with a serious and potentially fatal illness a transit of the eighth by Lord 8 might well be a sign of probable death; for someone in good health and in their early 30s it's more likely to mean a tax demand or possibly an inheritance.

People who consult Astrologers or Tarot readers tend to fall into two groups. The first are those who simply do it for fun but the more serious ones are those who have a problem that they want help with - that is a focus on something highly specific. In those circumstances predictive methods can be extremely helpful and those are the subjects that I think most readers appreciate. The person who turns up and says 'Tell me what's going to happen next year' without any further information is the worst subject and probably is someone who is out to challenge the reader anyway.

Minderwiz
20-09-2011, 02:13
Haizea, thank you, but actually the reason why I don't do daily readings has nothing to do with fear of the future. I simply do not find it useful to me, and I prefer to use my cards for more 'definite' questions. :) Of course I don't plan on sitting down and doing astrology work for myself daily, for similar reasons (and I wouldn't have the time, I barely have time for my morning prayers! :D).

Our posts crossed, but you seem to use predictive methods the same way that I do. Selecting for definite and specific issues rather than as some general description of the future.

Don't worry about only using the 10 planets and major aspects. I only use seven planets and the major aspects and that's more than enough for me LOL. You might also consider your approach to a chart.

Modern Astrology sees the chart as something of a map of the mind. We need to see the chart as a whole to understand the drives and motivations of a person and their perceptions of the outside world. Contradictions and conflicts are seen as giving some indication of the drives and motivational reactions of the person.

Traditional Astrology sees the chart as more than this. Yes it shows the intrinsic temperament and behaviour of the person but it also shows not only their perception of the real world but also the real world itself, in so far as it affects that person. Thus the ruler of the tenth does not so much show their perception of their mother as their mother herself and her interaction with them. That is there's less emphasis on the depth psychology and more emphasis on reality (and I stress the relative terms here, I'm not saying that Modern approaches have nothing to do with reality or that Traditional approaches are devoid of psychology).

The effect of the difference is that in Traditional Astrology the chart does not have to be read as a whole. We concentrate on those parts of the chart that determine the psychology as a start and then look at how the person relates to specific areas of their interaction with the real world and this can be done on a house by house basis.

Both approaches would agree that we can identify issues that are inherent in the chart and those issues that a person might have more difficulty with. Whether the person ever faces such circumstances is revealed through predictive work, such as Solar Returns. That is not all potentials are realised during a person's life, whilst others may be exercised regularly. There is also the learning and development that goes on in a person's life - a person might be ill-equipped to deal with a particular situation as a teenager but eminently able to deal with it at aged 40.

How do we disentangle? The short answer is that to do it successfully we need to work with the person in a consultation - either professionally or informally but there's really no certainty in situations where we're trying to read for a 'stranger' who we have no access to. We can speculate but do little more. Indeed without some feedback from them, we have no way of checking that our specualtion is accurate in whole or part or plain wrong.

dadsnook2000
20-09-2011, 02:29
Once we start to determine rulerships, exaltations, and other adjunct modifications to each planet, things become complex. Rather than start off a chart reading with all of this baggage to contend with why not do it the simple way?

For example, MERCURY represents how you communicate, write, local travel preferences and activities, your thoughts and how you both perceive people/events and how you organize facts and memories. It's house provides a focus area of life where these thoughts and communications are emphasized, the sign might suggest the tone or style you apply to expressing these Mercury activities.

Then go on to each of the other planets. Just using these statements will provide a fairly clear idea of the core meanings of the chart as a whole, of you as a whole person. Where there is contraction, there is a personality wrinkle that makes you unique and which you will find a way to fold into your life.

Note, we haven't talked of aspects yet, nor how close or loose they may be. We haven't talked about all of the classical and medeival twists and turns that were used to refine and expand a chart's meaning to overcome the presence of only a few planets that could be worked with. Simple is the way to start. Dave

Minderwiz
20-09-2011, 06:09
Once we start to determine rulerships, exaltations, and other adjunct modifications to each planet, things become complex. Rather than start off a chart reading with all of this baggage to contend with why not do it the simple way?

For example, MERCURY represents how you communicate, write, local travel preferences and activities, your thoughts and how you both perceive people/events and how you organize facts and memories. It's house provides a focus area of life where these thoughts and communications are emphasized, the sign might suggest the tone or style you apply to expressing these Mercury activities.

I'm all for simplification, the issue is of course, how much simplification? One of the most used simplifications is the Astrological Alphabet, which runs along the following lines: Mars = Aries = First House, or Mercury = Gemini = third House. The trouble is that it's a gross over simplification that leads to mistakes in practice. Dave's suggestion here is a reasonable start and it can give you a general overview. There will come a point though, when you ask not just how do I communicate but how well do I communicate? You might also ask if there is only one area of your life that you communicate through? When you get to that stage then 'rulerships, exaltations and other adjunct modifications', or aspects become important for further progress. Those additional factors can be added in bite sized chunks - for example you might want to look at whether Mercury is aspected by other planets, when you reach that stage. As long as you realise that you are dealing with a very simple model of Astrology that is a good way forward and once you are happy that you have the basics of that model in place you can move forward.


Note, we haven't talked of aspects yet, nor how close or loose they may be. We haven't talked about all of the classical and medeival twists and turns that were used to refine and expand a chart's meaning to overcome the presence of only a few planets that could be worked with. Simple is the way to start. Dave

Yes aspects will eventually have to be confronted and you do need to know the planets' intrinsic natures first. You will also need to have a reasonable grasp as to the meaning of the Houses and at first sight these can seem totally arbitrary and irrational. There is however a reasonable rationale to them based on the daily rotation of the Earth.


I'm interested in Dave's view of medieval Astrologers, who seemed to know that they were lacking in planets and had to think up ways of dealing with their poverty of resources. with twists and turns. I'm sure he'll expand on that one later. And of course no one could complain about Modern Astrologers adding complexity to chart reading, their 20 or 30 pages for a natal reading being far less complex than the 3 or 4 pages of a medieval reading. LOL

At a more serious level, eventually you will need to make a decision about what levels of complexity to accept and which complexities to reject. That will be influenced not only by the quantity of complexity you want to allow but also the quality - that is some complexities may appeal to your approach others may just seem like making the simple become difficult to no good purpose. I think Dave and I would agree on keeping things as simple as is consistent with getting the results you are looking for, or are at least willing to settle for. We might disagree on which complexities to choose and incorporate but that's not really a major issue for you, as you have to settle on your own approach and this will change and develop over time. So nice small steps to begin with but once you are happy with those steps, then is the time to consider adding some complexity. Note I said consider, there will come a point sooner or later when the answer to that consideration will be to reject the additional complexity. You might well end up simply content that you've got the basics and not wish to go further, or that you are able to read a natal chart to your satisfaction, whilst recognising that there's a lot more that you could incorporate if only you had the time and inclination. It's not an all or nothing scenario.

Saturness
20-09-2011, 07:01
Our posts crossed, but you seem to use predictive methods the same way that I do. Selecting for definite and specific issues rather than as some general description of the future.

Yes. In the past I have been guilty of "overusing" my oracles with frequent readings for myself and with very vague questions, that ultimately only made me confused and pretty much ruined the whole experience of reading for a while. Now I have learnt ;). And of course I never had the intention of repeating the mistake with Astrology!


Modern Astrology sees the chart as something of a map of the mind. We need to see the chart as a whole to understand the drives and motivations of a person and their perceptions of the outside world. Contradictions and conflicts are seen as giving some indication of the drives and motivational reactions of the person.

Traditional Astrology sees the chart as more than this. Yes it shows the intrinsic temperament and behaviour of the person but it also shows not only their perception of the real world but also the real world itself, in so far as it affects that person. Thus the ruler of the tenth does not so much show their perception of their mother as their mother herself and her interaction with them. That is there's less emphasis on the depth psychology and more emphasis on reality (and I stress the relative terms here, I'm not saying that Modern approaches have nothing to do with reality or that Traditional approaches are devoid of psychology).

I like that about the Traditional Astrology... sometimes I have the impression that the books I have focus a lot on the characteristic of the person, but do not show that what the same planets and aspects could represent in terms of events and situations. From what you have told us, Traditional Astrology has a better way of more balanced view of the chart, not so focused on the individual, but also analyzing what surrounds him. "No man is an island". We are a result of both our potentials and temperament and the reality that surrounds us.

I have been looking for books on Traditional Astrology here where I live, but so far I have not been lucky. I am unable to buy it from abroad from the time being, so I am relying on books about Modern/Psychological Astrology.


Once we start to determine rulerships, exaltations, and other adjunct modifications to each planet, things become complex. Rather than start off a chart reading with all of this baggage to contend with why not do it the simple way?

For example, MERCURY represents how you communicate, write, local travel preferences and activities, your thoughts and how you both perceive people/events and how you organize facts and memories. It's house provides a focus area of life where these thoughts and communications are emphasized, the sign might suggest the tone or style you apply to expressing these Mercury activities.

Then go on to each of the other planets. Just using these statements will provide a fairly clear idea of the core meanings of the chart as a whole, of you as a whole person. Where there is contraction, there is a personality wrinkle that makes you unique and which you will find a way to fold into your life.

Note, we haven't talked of aspects yet, nor how close or loose they may be. We haven't talked about all of the classical and medeival twists and turns that were used to refine and expand a chart's meaning to overcome the presence of only a few planets that could be worked with. Simple is the way to start. Dave

Thank you Dave! I think I'll do this exercise with the example charts I have, only the basic Planet/House/Sign thing, plus essential dignities. When I am comfortable with it, I'll start incorporating the major aspects.

I have no idea what the medieval twists and turns are, I am still in search for a good book about the History of Astrology! :laugh:

At a more serious level, eventually you will need to make a decision about what levels of complexity to accept and which complexities to reject. That will be influenced not only by the quantity of complexity you want to allow but also the quality - that is some complexities may appeal to your approach others may just seem like making the simple become difficult to no good purpose. I think Dave and I would agree on keeping things as simple as is consistent with getting the results you are looking for, or are at least willing to settle for. We might disagree on which complexities to choose and incorporate but that's not really a major issue for you, as you have to settle on your own approach and this will change and develop over time. So nice small steps to begin with but once you are happy with those steps, then is the time to consider adding some complexity. Note I said consider, there will come a point sooner or later when the answer to that consideration will be to reject the additional complexity. You might well end up simply content that you've got the basics and not wish to go further, or that you are able to read a natal chart to your satisfaction, whilst recognising that there's a lot more that you could incorporate if only you had the time and inclination. It's not an all or nothing scenario.

I want to learn as much as possible! I'd like to learn enough to interpret a chart & its complexities with some confidence, and to be able to do transits and progressions. Above all, I wish to know enough in order to choose what I want to incorporate in my practice, and not discard anything out of ignorance. :)

I understood that Dave's simplification works as a way to learn better the nature of the planets and houses, which is the knowledge that helps you to understand well the aspects and others things. I did not assume that a decent analysis of a chart could be limited to it. I suppose I should keep it simple until I'm comfortable with the Houses and Planets and how they work

I know the basic part well, but I still need to 'ingrain' this knowledge into my brain, so it'll become more 'intuitive' and I don't have to spend 5 minutes recalling this information every time I look at a chart. But it takes study and practice to develop this mental agility, I guess. I think that some simplification will help me with this part, as long as I don't limit myself to it. ;)

dadsnook2000
20-09-2011, 08:18
Planets can be "read" or viewed through a variety of lenses. A few examples follow and address feelings, actions, situations, career. These are partial listing cut-and-pasted from collections of writings --- mine and others. The point is that any factor can be viewed through an perspective. One could modify these partial lists to look at health, travel preferences, their housing and neighborhood, foods. Highly capable astrologers do these things automatically, shifting gears to meet client's questions or their own interests.

Do we memorize this stuff? No. We just assimilate it over time and create it within larger patterns of understanding while adjusting it to the moment. As Minderwiz noted, this is an artform, not a science. By the way, the two-letter designations stand for planets which are in combination with another planet in some way. Dave

Feelings:
Sun: Happiness, Hope,
Moon: Emotional needs, Infantile, Satisfaction, Dreamer; NE-MO, Empathetic; NE-MO,
Gloomy; MO-NE
Mercury: Amorality; PL-ME,
Venus: Affection, Affinity, Charm, Enjoyment, Intimacy, Joy, Eroticism; VE-PL, Jealousy; VE-PL
Mars: Hate, hatred,
Jupiter: Flamboyancy; JU-SU
Saturn: Annoyance, Apprehension, Bitter, Failure, Frustration, feeling Guilty, Envy; ME-SA,
Fearful; SA-NE
Uranus: Frenzied,
Neptune: Adoration, Ecstasy, Enchantment/ed, Martyrdom, Fantasy; NE-MO
Pluto: Anguish, Emotional abuse, Infatuation; PL-NE

Actions, Activities
Sun: Accomplishment; SU-SA,
Moon: Instinctive behavior; MO-MA
Mercury:
Venus: Acquisitions; VE-JU,
Mars: Action, Initiation (starting), Accidents; MA-UR, Accusation; PL-MA, Assault; MA-PL,
Crudeness; MA-UR
Jupiter: Idealism,
Saturn: Backwardness, Damage, Confinement; NE-SA
Uranus: Drastic Action, Adultery,
Neptune: Activities, dishonest, Drug usage, Hallucination, Indiscretion, Lethargic, Bribery; PL-NE
Pluto: Activities, socially taboo, Incest, Activities, covert; PL-NE, Blackmail; PL-NE …emotional; PL,
Brutality; MA-PL,

Situations, environments
Sun: Fame, Fatherhood; SU-SA, Government affairs; SU-SA, Male company; SU-MA
Moon: Domesticity, Family, family influence, Habit patterns, Maternity, Female company; MO-VE,
Masses/groups (lg); MO-PL
Mercury: Information exchange,
Venus: Engaged (romantic), Love, personal, Love affairs; VE-SU
Mars: Discord, among Enemies, Exercise, exertion; MA-PL,
Jupiter: having Faith; JU-SU,
Saturn: Elderly company, Insolvency, Limits, perceiving, Hard work, labor; SA-MA
Uranus: Divorce, Groups, Humanitarian work, Love, humanitarian; UR-NE
Neptune: Illness, mental; NE, Intoxication, Hospital care; NE-MO
Pluto: Immortality related, Homicide; PL-MA

Career, Avocation
Sun: Celebrity, Goldsmith, jeweler, Leaders, Royalty, Parents; SU-MO, Statesman; SU-SA,
Moon: Antique dealers, Cooks, Housekeeping, Meteorologists, weather, Night workers, Real Estate agents,
Mercury: Accountant, Agents, Bookkeepers, Cab-drivers, Draftsman, Servants, Teller, Tenant, Advertising agents; ME-JU, Busineesmen/women; ME-MO, Craftsman, ME-MA, Lab technicians; UR-ME, Office manager; ME-SA, Radio/TV workers; ME-UR, Scholar; ME-JU, Telephone workers; ME-UR, Travel agent; ME-JU, Writers; ME-MO
Venus: Art dealers, Beauticians, Buyer, Ecology related, Landscapers, Partner, Retail occupations, Surveyors, Biologists; VE-NE, Cashiers; VE-ME, Credit Manager; VE-PL, Musicians; VE-NE,
Tailors; VE-ME, Therapists, physical; VE-MA,
Mars: Barbers, Guard, security, Litigant, Military members, Physical Educator, Butcher; MA-PL, Carpenter; MA-SA, Farm workers; SA-MA, Killer; MA-PL, Police officers; MA-PL,
Sportscaster; MA-JU, Surgeons; MA-PL,
Jupiter: Academic, Advertising, Advocate, Attorney, Bishop, clergy, Exploration, Legislators, Ambassadors; JU-ME, Brokers; JU-ME, Leaders (religious); JU-PL,
Saturn: Enforcement agencies, Landlords, Plumber; SA-PL,
Uranus: Aerospace tech/engineering, Electricians, electronics, Anarchist; UR-NE, Scientists; UR-SA, Space workers; UR-(NE),
Neptune: Film industry; NE-plus, Bartenders; NE-MO, Mediums; NE-MO, Pharmacist; NE-ME,
Fishing industry; NE-MO,
Pluto: CIA-secret organizations, Embalmers, Gangsters, criminal, Investigators, Investors, Judges,Junk dealer, Renovators, Convicts; PL-SA, Funeral related; PL-(SA),

Minderwiz
20-09-2011, 21:39
Do we memorize this stuff? No.

Phew!!! you had me worried for a minute :)



....the two-letter designations stand for planets which are in combination with another planet in some way. Dave

There's a very important point there - many things, places, people, ideas and concepts can be signified by more than one planet because they combine some of the characteristics of those planets. For example a black phone has elements of Saturn - the colour black - and elements of Mercury - it's a communications device. It might also have elements of Venus - it's a decorative object or fashion accessory. Which of these is the most important will vary depending on the context in which we are considering them. If we are using the phone for ringing someone or sending a text, then it's clearly primarily a Mercury object. If we're using it to show off to our friends, then it's primarily a Venus object and if we're collecting black objects then it's primarily a Saturn object. However in all cases the primary nature does not remove or replace the others. Thus you will find different planets cited as ruling the same object in the literature.

In his list of Venus 'things' Dave left out relationships which is one of the first things most students of Modern Astrology would have suggested (that and young women, wives and girlfriends), I actually think his list is right here. Venus is not primarily concerned with relationships as such but they are implicit in a lot of Venus activities. I think the modern association with relationships lies in that simplification of first house = Aries, leading to seventh House = Libra (and therefore Venus). I've never seen Venus listed as 'relationships' in the traditional texts. Her nature stems from her role as the 'lesser fortune, author of mirth and jollity', to quote Lilly. In short, Venus is to do with pleasure and the way we take our pleasure. Venus joys in the fifth House which is the house of Venusian pursuits.

Quite a few of the things Dave attributes to Neptune, I'd attribute to Venus but again it comes down to what is the primary nature of the item being considered in context. Is the film industry concerned primarily with illusion, deception and fantasy - the modern view of Neptune, or is it primarily concerned with entertainment and pleasure. Clearly that's not an easy question to answer. Much of the entertainment and pleasure lies in the suspension of disbelief and the audience identifying with characters and plot. But is the audience really deceived or taken in by the illusion? Well clearly some people believe that characters from soap operas are real, so there's an argument that it is Neptunian. Most people, though are aware that Harry Potter is a fictional character and that Hogwarts doesn't really exist (though my wife is still recovering from that news LOL).

The same argument could be held over the function of a bartender. Inns, bars, pubs and taverns are Venus places where people go for pleasure and take that not only in drinking beer or wine but also in playing games such as darts, pool, bar billiards, dominoes or even joining pub teams for quizzes, football or (in a pub I recently visited) morris dancing - all being Venus activities. So one could argue that a bartender is a venusian occupation - primarily helping to provide pleasure. But what of those who go to the bar to get drunk, is the bartender then a purveyor of drugs (alcohol) designed to dim and mislead the senses?

My point here is that it's not always easy to decide which planet rules something - but thinking about the issue and the contex does help get a clearer view of what a planet can represent through its intrinsic nature.

Saturness
21-09-2011, 04:39
Thank you, Dave and Minderwiz, for your inestimable help!

Highly capable astrologers do these things automatically, shifting gears to meet client's questions or their own interests.

I find that fascinating! To develop a skill to such degree!


Do we memorize this stuff? No. We just assimilate it over time and create it within larger patterns of understanding while adjusting it to the moment. As Minderwiz noted, this is an artform, not a science.

Whew! I was about to buy book about mnemonic techniques to memorize lists. ;)

Joking aside, memorizing is just the first part of learning. You only begin to get good at something when you incorporate the concepts and understand them as fluid ideas, and not rigid ones. Many factors can determine how a planet will manifest its potential, so to speak, so to limit them to couple of keywords is to discard some of the most interesting - and complex - interplay between elements in a chart. In a sense, it is similar to card reading. If you simply memorize the meanings, without assimilating them overtime, it'll be hard for you to connect the cards - specially when two apparently opposed ideas show up in your 3-card reading!


My point here is that it's not always easy to decide which planet rules something - but thinking about the issue and the contex does help get a clearer view of what a planet can represent through its intrinsic nature.

Wow, I LIKE you examples of how the planets may represent similar things, with differing points of view perhaps (cinema: illusion (neptune) or fun (venus)?). In fact I was happy to learn that Venus is not all about love, because it tires me to constantly read that people with Venus in Capricorn (like moi) marry for money and are emotionally distant (older book were full of these ideas, LOL!). :laugh:

I think the hard part is to assimilate the more basic characteristic of each planet, and from there develop a more open and less rigid view. Once these planets are 'alive' elements in front of you, and not static definition, it's easy to understand how they play together.

However I confess I can feel the pressure rising inside my skull, lol!

But I love that, I like these complexities, they attract me and don't scare me. I will keep studying in order to eventually reach the same astrological finesse you and Dave have. I suppose this will take some years. ;)


Thank you for all the help you both have been giving me, it is much appreciated!

prudence
21-09-2011, 13:12
Wow, I LIKE you examples of how the planets may represent similar things, with differing points of view perhaps (cinema: illusion (neptune) or fun (venus)?). In fact I was happy to learn that Venus is not all about love, because it tires me to constantly read that people with Venus in Capricorn (like moi) marry for money and are emotionally distant (older book were full of these ideas, LOL!). :laugh:


Hey, don't feel so bad, when I tried to learn some astrology a few years ago (and got a lot of incredible help here in this forum from Minderwiz and Dadsnook) I came away from some sources (from the internet or in books) wondering how I had managed to live to such an advanced age without having become a heroin addict! :D (my Venus is in Pisces in the 12th House...along with my Sun and north node)

I am still plodding along at beginner level in my astro studies though...it is so complex and layered and....deep. But I almost always read the threads in here, well, at least the ones I can semi-understand. :D Good luck in your learning.

Saturness
21-09-2011, 13:29
Hey, don't feel so bad, when I tried to learn some astrology a few years ago (and got a lot of incredible help here in this forum from Minderwiz and Dadsnook) I came away from some sources (from the internet or in books) wondering how I had managed to live to such an advanced age without having become a heroin addict! :D (my Venus is in Pisces in the 12th House...along with my Sun and north node)

LOL! I have Sun in the 12th House too, I suppose we should both be schizophrenics? (Dissolution of the Ego = psychotic, lol! :laugh:)


I am still plodding along at beginner level in my astro studies though...it is so complex and layered and....deep. But I almost always read the threads in here, well, at least the ones I can semi-understand. :D Good luck in your learning.

Yes, it has definitely many many layers. It's really an art, like Minderwiz and Dave said, and like any art a part is learnt from books and classes, but another big part comes from the artist, so to speak. Meanwhile, I am trudging through the mud puddles of Basic Level wondering how come my skull is still in one piece. But LOVING it. I love the mental challenge Astrology represents!

dadsnook2000
21-09-2011, 20:46
Some of the most engaging, vibrant, outgoing and all-around great individuals I've know have had 12th house Suns. While most were in the helping professions, really, they had no obvious hang-ups, health problems or major difficulties in life.

Just think of what a 12th house Sun is! The Sun has just risen, light has come, the promise of a new day is starting to emerge, life is preparing to grab it's get-up-and-go and get going. Dave

Minderwiz
22-09-2011, 02:24
Oh dear, I find myself agreeing with Dave again :) :)

The twelfth House may not be the best place in a chart (any chart) but then we've all got one in our chart and many of us have planets in our twelfth (in my case Mars, Saturn and even worse for Pluto addicts, I've got Pluto there too, which for some Astrologers is justification enough for me resorting to suicide at an early age, rather than facing the horror of life to come (as they see it). :(

In the real world, having a planet or planets in your twelfth is not the end of life and as Dave points out, people with the Sun (or any other planet) in the twelfth can lead perfectly rewarding and enjoyable lives, All houses cover a range of possible experiences. For example hospitals (and associated institutions such as care homes) are twelfth house places, and we could experience those either as a resident or work in them in one of the caring professions. Larger animals such as cattle and horses are twelfth House, we could lead lives which have a high involvement with those animals. The twelfth includes the secret or hidden, but that can simply mean working in the background or even being the main support to a relative who is in the public gaze. A bias to the twelfth (and I stress bias rather than simply having a planet or even two, there) does not have to mean that we have mental breakdowns, or become drug addicts (psychological approach) or end up in prison (traditionally a twelfth house place). Even if we do have a significant bias to the twelfth this might simply mean that we want to keep our lives very private, or devote our lives to caring for those in institutions or a similar twelfth house activity, Some members here might well actually be very pleased that witchcraft is a twelfth house practice, even though traditionally witches were seen as suspect.

We all have twelfth Houses, we all have planets that rule the twelfth, even if we don't have planets in the twelfth, and for all of us twelfth House functions are part of our lives, for some more than others, but very, very few of us have lives that are a disaster

Just think of what a 12th house Sun is! The Sun has just risen, light has come, the promise of a new day is starting to emerge, life is preparing to grab it's get-up-and-go and get going.

This observation seems to jar with the twelfth as a hidden or secret place - it's there in the full glare of the day. What we do need to remember is that the houses rotate clockwise and the start point is the moment of birth. Each of the twelfth houses (or rather the portion of the zodiac that they fall in) will rise across the Ascendant in the 24 hours following birth. The twelfth is the last place that will 'rise' in those 24 hours, rather than the first - it's the last place to come to the light after the birth.

However the important thing, is that the twelfth House Sun, indicates that it's a day birth. and the Sun is the most diurnal planet. If the Sun is in a diurnal sign (Fire or Air) then the Sun is in Hayz, the best possible condition for the Sun in any chart. it might not be quite as strong in the eighth or twelfth (other things being equal) as it is in the 11th, 10th, 9th and 7th but it is in it's 'element'. But is what is good for the Sun, good for the native...?

Saturness
22-09-2011, 04:56
Some of the most engaging, vibrant, outgoing and all-around great individuals I've know have had 12th house Suns. While most were in the helping professions, really, they had no obvious hang-ups, health problems or major difficulties in life.

Oh, I was absolutely joking when I said we should be schizophrenics! I mean, I think I am still within the average age for the first schizophrenic episode, but so far nothing. :laugh: Although I certainly am, according to Gary Posner who said the "believers [in astrology] may have a pathological medical condition...maybe compatible with a diagnosis of schizophrenia.".

It's like you said - potential is something, but it's experience that helps to shape these latent energies within us. Besides, the chart is a fairly complex 'map'... the Sun in the 12th House is influenced by many other factors.


The twelfth House may not be the best place in a chart (any chart) but then we've all got one in our chart and many of us have planets in our twelfth (in my case Mars, Saturn and even worse for Pluto addicts, I've got Pluto there too, which for some Astrologers is justification enough for me resorting to suicide at an early age, rather than facing the horror of life to come (as they see it). :(

Poor Minderwiz! :(
You are not alone in this!

The Sun in the 12th House does not bother me, although it gets some scary descriptions in the books. I once had a friend who was an 'astrology student' who told me to be careful about my "Gangster potential" - I have Mars and Pluto in the 11th House, I have chances of inspiring riots or getting involved with criminal groups. :bugeyed:

Wow. Well, that's predictable, I must be looking for my future husband among the Rich criminals, because of the Venus in Capricorn in the 1st House. That's how I'll end in prison (Sun 12th House).

You see, all makes perfect sense!:laugh:

Joking aside, it's complicated when you limit the planets to ONE TRUE kind of influence - and also when you isolate it from other influences. It makes people seem like human-shaped cardboard cutouts! Many of the descriptions of aspects in older book are rather scary, and make you feel as if you were born rotten somehow.

I think that if you assimilate the 'universe' of potentials that exists in each planet, instead of memorizing characteristics, it becomes easier not only to understand the interplay between the planets, but to see them within the context of the whole chart. Not focus on ONE house. Is the idea of suicide/social climber/frenzied crusader/gangster/mentally disordered reinforced anywhere else? How does it go with the rest of the chart? How does it go with the current reality of the person?

The twelfth includes the secret or hidden, but that can simply mean working in the background or even being the main support to a relative who is in the public gaze. [...] Even if we do have a significant bias to the twelfth this might simply mean that we want to keep our lives very private, or devote our lives to caring for those in institutions or a similar twelfth house activity, Some members here might well actually be very pleased that witchcraft is a twelfth house practice, even though traditionally witches were seen as suspect.

Hey, have you been reading my journal??? :mad: :laugh:

Minderwiz
22-09-2011, 07:41
Poor Minderwiz! :(
You are not alone in this!

The Sun in the 12th House does not bother me, although it gets some scary descriptions in the books. I once had a friend who was an 'astrology student' who told me to be careful about my "Gangster potential" - I have Mars and Pluto in the 11th House, I have chances of inspiring riots or getting involved with criminal groups. :bugeyed:

Well in my case I got round it by totally ignoring Pluto, Dave would say of course that ignoring it doesn't make it go away :) I once read an Astrologer (I think it was Stephen Arroyo) saying that at a conference he'd been at he came across several colleagues worrying and fretting about their Pluto transits, and these were people who are supposedly counselling clients to be positive. Ignoring it might not make it go away but it does make life much more fun :)



Astrologers both ancient and modern are guilty of using language that we find scary from a twenty first century context. One of the scariest I've read is Alan Leo writing at the turn of the twentieth century but I can point to the odd thing in Lilly that is not PC :) At least we can make some allowances for culture differences between now and 100 years ago or more, it's when you read a current Astrologer treating some configurations as generic signs of mental illness or extreme behaviour based on working with people who are mentally ill or highly disturbed or unbalanced and then projecting it on to the population as a whole. It's also worth bearing in mind that people who consult Astrologers do so because they usually want help with a problem - they are in an atypical situation for them. So we should be careful about widely attributing characteristics to people based on encountering those characteristics in people in atypical situations for them. y

[quote=Marina]
I think that if you assimilate the 'universe' of potentials that exists in each planet, instead of memorizing characteristics, it becomes easier not only to understand the interplay between the planets, but to see them within the context of the whole chart. Not focus on ONE house. Is the idea of suicide/social climber/frenzied crusader/gangster/mentally disordered reinforced anywhere else? How does it go with the rest of the chart? How does it go with the current reality of the person?

Yes that's true. Astrologers need to consider the 'default' for a person - that is their basic character. People who are naturally melancholic don't engage in hyperactive rounds of rash intense behaviour, whatever the current transit or progression or solar return. They may however be a little more dynamic or optimistic than normal for them. On the other hand extreme melancholics with little counterbalancing humours are likely to be prone to depression and even small disturbances to routine might tip them over the edge. Extreme melancholics are of course just that - extremes and not normal people.

It's quite possible to read on a house by house basis once the basic temperament and behavioural tendencies have been identified. That temperament and behaviour will inform the way that the houses are read - that is we would bear their temperament in mind if they asked about what sort of employment would suit them, rather than simply going from the tenth house on its own.


Hey, have you been reading my journal??? :mad: :laugh:

How did you know....witchcraft??? :)

prudence
22-09-2011, 08:52
LOL! I have Sun in the 12th House too, I suppose we should both be schizophrenics? (Dissolution of the Ego = psychotic, lol! :laugh:)

Yikes, I guess we need to keep a sharp lookout for our failing mental statuses... :bugeyed:


With your sun in the 12th house, do you find yourself having any typical piscean traits? My daughter's sun is in Taurus, but it's also in the 12th house, and I find that she seems to have a Piscean flavor to her personality, she's very artistic and creative, as well as very sensitive and giving.
Some of the most engaging, vibrant, outgoing and all-around great individuals I've know have had 12th house Suns. While most were in the helping professions, really, they had no obvious hang-ups, health problems or major difficulties in life.

Just think of what a 12th house Sun is! The Sun has just risen, light has come, the promise of a new day is starting to emerge, life is preparing to grab it's get-up-and-go and get going. DaveNow that is refreshing to hear! (er...read) I do find that in my family, I am the one who is the friendliest and most outgoing...when I am in the mood, I can strike up a conversation with pretty much anyone.

Oh dear, I find myself agreeing with Dave again :) :)

The twelfth House may not be the best place in a chart (any chart) but then we've all got one in our chart and many of us have planets in our twelfth (in my case Mars, Saturn and even worse for Pluto addicts, I've got Pluto there too, which for some Astrologers is justification enough for me resorting to suicide at an early age, rather than facing the horror of life to come (as they see it). :(

In the real world, having a planet or planets in your twelfth is not the end of life and as Dave points out, people with the Sun (or any other planet) in the twelfth can lead perfectly rewarding and enjoyable lives, All houses cover a range of possible experiences. For example hospitals (and associated institutions such as care homes) are twelfth house places, and we could experience those either as a resident or work in them in one of the caring professions. Larger animals such as cattle and horses are twelfth House, we could lead lives which have a high involvement with those animals. The twelfth includes the secret or hidden, but that can simply mean working in the background or even being the main support to a relative who is in the public gaze. A bias to the twelfth (and I stress bias rather than simply having a planet or even two, there) does not have to mean that we have mental breakdowns, or become drug addicts (psychological approach) or end up in prison (traditionally a twelfth house place). Even if we do have a significant bias to the twelfth this might simply mean that we want to keep our lives very private, or devote our lives to caring for those in institutions or a similar twelfth house activity, Some members here might well actually be very pleased that witchcraft is a twelfth house practice, even though traditionally witches were seen as suspect.
I think in a way, my manner of manifesting some 12th house stuff is all about being secretive or hidden. I practice "magic" but to look at me, you'd think I was totally conservative, probably Christian, most likely Republican...and yet I am none of those things. I am one of the biggest freaks I know, in a town full of people who advertise their freakishness through the clothes that they wear. I am a freaky weirdo in Carol Brady clothing. :D I just cannot stand the thought of people looking at me and knowing that I am into A, B, or C....no thank you, my stuff is private.

Well in my case I got round it by totally ignoring Pluto, Dave would say of course that ignoring it doesn't make it go away :) I once read an Astrologer (I think it was Stephen Arroyo) saying that at a conference he'd been at he came across several colleagues worrying and fretting about their Pluto transits, and these were people who are supposedly counselling clients to be positive. Ignoring it might not make it go away but it does make life much more fun :)
I am glad to know I am not the only one who does this! :D

it's when you read a current Astrologer treating some configurations as generic signs of mental illness or extreme behaviour based on working with people who are mentally ill or highly disturbed or unbalanced and then projecting it on to the population as a whole. It's also worth bearing in mind that people who consult Astrologers do so because they usually want help with a problem - they are in an atypical situation for them. So we should be careful about widely attributing characteristics to people based on encountering those characteristics in people in atypical situations for them. y
IN an older thread here (Casey Anthony) someone made the statement (quite emphatically) that Casey "looks just like a Pisces" and acts "just like a Pisces" or something like that...and while I am still at the very basic, beginner level in my astro knowledge, I could not understand what was meant by those statements. Okay, looking like a Pisces, I guess that can be pretty subjective (though for the record, I look nothing like Casey Anthony...and have not just my sun, venus and north node in Pisces, but my ASC is Pisces as well, so I would think I must "look" like one?), but acting like one? To my knowledge Pisces are usually described as sensitive, caring, creative/artistic, self sacrificing etc...I kept wondering when did Pisces typical behavior change to selfish, self-centered, party-girl and possibly infanticidal? (is that a word?)

I know the whole "tendency towards substance abuse" angle, but that to me is more like the Kurt Cobain kind of slipping into self medicating style of drug abuse, which we can see was most likely due to enourmous amounts of personal pain he wanted to relieve himself from.... which is nothing like the "party girl" behavior we can see in Casey Anthony's photo albums....and I certainly never witnessed her doing anything creative, artistic or sensitive during the trial. I still scratch my head about those statements.

Barleywine
22-09-2011, 12:23
I come from a large family with several 12th House Sun people (some with a host of other planets there). The worst I can say about them (well, from an astrological perspective ;)) is that they don't really "see" themselves very clearly. It's like they function instinctively at the Ascendant level with the Sun "behind their back," looking over their shoulder, so to speak. The 12th House must get its bad rap mainly from being cadent. I agree that it doesn't square well with the idea that planets above the horizon are "out in the world" in a very public way. Conversely, we have a few family members with loaded 4th Houses, and they have deeper psychological undercurrents than any of the 12th House types. If I recall, Michel Gauquelin's work showed that the last 5 degrees of the 12th House were more "active" than the area immediately below the Ascendant in the charts of prominent people. I wonder what became of all his research in that area.

Saturness
22-09-2011, 23:26
With your sun in the 12th house, do you find yourself having any typical piscean traits? My daughter's sun is in Taurus, but it's also in the 12th house, and I find that she seems to have a Piscean flavor to her personality, she's very artistic and creative, as well as very sensitive and giving.

I am not very good at telling my own characteristics (perhaps a 12th House Sun trait? :P), so I'd need someone who knows me and knows astrology to say if I have a Piscean trait. I do think that my Jupiter and Moon placement could make me a bit more aggressive and 'tone down' any Piscean traits I could have.

In any case, it's hard for me to define 'Piscean traits' - my mother is Pisces, Moon in Pisces, my sister is Taurus, Moon in Pisces and I still cannot pinpoint Pisces' influence, only I know it's there in some impalpable way. I can see some similarities between them, and the differences too and how they could relate to different manifestations in the natal chart, BUT I consider my knowledge of astrology to be enough to analyze it with some confidence...


I come from a large family with several 12th House Sun people (some with a host of other planets there). The worst I can say about them (well, from an astrological perspective ;)) is that they don't really "see" themselves very clearly. It's like they function instinctively at the Ascendant level with the Sun "behind their back," looking over their shoulder, so to speak.

That is interesting. I find it very hard to explain when people tell me to describe myself, lol! I believe the fact that I have 4 planets in the 1st House does not make it much easier :D (although two of these Planets - Uranus and Neptune - are planets with huge orbits so I'm not sure if they can be interpreted in an 'individual' level...).


If I recall, Michel Gauquelin's work showed that the last 5 degrees of the 12th House were more "active" than the area immediately below the Ascendant in the charts of prominent people. I wonder what became of all his research in that area.

I am not sure if it makes any sense, but once I asked here about the idea that a Planet in the last degree of certain House could be considered as if belonging already to the next House. So perhaps this idea come from the fact that a Planet within the 5 last degrees of the 12th House would actually be interpreted as if in the 1st House already.

Although it does not explain why the last degrees of the 12th House and the first degrees of the 1st House would have a different influence...

I am looking for some books by Michel Gauquelin here! :)

dadsnook2000
23-09-2011, 01:51
Within the Sidereal school of thought and research, those who have dug deeply into the history and usage of ancient and more modern Sidereal astrology apply sign meanings mainly to the Sun and Moon ---- and not so much, if at all, to the other planets.

To the extent that this interpretation of their views is generally true and valid, it would suggest that ancient astrology was either Solar, or Lunar, or both Solar and Lunar based depending upon the time period and the culture using some form of astrology.

From conventional astrological history, we all probably agree that the above statement is true. The Sun through the signs was both an agricultural-and-seasonal measuring tool as well as a civil calendar tool. The Moon's path or plane of movement interecpted the Sun's plane of movement as well as reflecting light from the Sun as it moved through its own orbital phases. These phases or sign associations or star-grouping associations probably were most applicable to agricultural and religous concerns.

Much has been made of planets traveling and contacting the stars in ancient astrologies, but so much as relating to the "signs."

LET AS ALL ASSUME FOR THE MOMENT THAT THE ABOVE STATEMENTS ARE "TRUE."

We could interpret our charts in terms of 1) the Sun by house, angle, sign, aspect, 2) the Moon primarily by phase-angle or aspect to the Sun and 3) the Moon secondarily by sign and relationship to the planets, and 4) the planets by house, by aspect, by contact with the fixed stars.

Now, this --- for me --- would be one way to work in a classical astrological mode and would impact the way in which astrology is practiced. ANY COMMENTS OR THOUGHTS? Dave

Barleywine
23-09-2011, 04:25
We could interpret our charts in terms of 1) the Sun by house, angle, sign, aspect, 2) the Moon primarily by phase-angle or aspect to the Sun and 3) the Moon secondarily by sign and relationship to the planets, and 4) the planets by house, by aspect, by contact with the fixed stars.

Now, this --- for me --- would be one way to work in a classical astrological mode and would impact the way in which astrology is practiced. ANY COMMENTS OR THOUGHTS? Dave

In an "extra-astrological" sense, there is a whole "upstart" (although Manly. P. Hall and others said it decades ago) school of thought on "astro-theology" that recognizes all patriarchal religions as Sun-worship. There are even some today who say that the Moon "gets in the way" of us seeing ourselves as Solar (or god-like) beings, a phantasmagorical distraction, always flitting about showing a different face. (My wife seems to find all of these guys in her on-line travels.) Even in this peculiar view there is the truth that the Sun-Moon relationship is the heart of the matter at its most personal. Everything else is elaboration or refinement. The above is pretty much how I've always worked, although I tended to jump over the Moon's phase-angle to the Sun unless it was conjunct or opposite at the New or Full Moons, or square at the quarters, and I never caught up to the fixed stars.

Minderwiz
23-09-2011, 07:07
I'm going to be nit-picky here!! Not because I disagree with everything you say but because I think there's a lot of things taken as certain (for brevity) which at least need to be drawn out before I commit myself to agreeing with some, or all of your points and conclusions.


Within the Sidereal school of thought and research, those who have dug deeply into the history and usage of ancient and more modern Sidereal astrology apply sign meanings mainly to the Sun and Moon ---- and not so much, if at all, to the other planets.

To the extent that this interpretation of their views is generally true and valid, it would suggest that ancient astrology was either Solar, or Lunar, or both Solar and Lunar based depending upon the time period and the culture using some form of astrology.

There's a whole lot of subtle assumptions in there that require some more substance before we fully accept them. The first subtle assumption is that sidereal Astrology predates Tropical Astrology. The answer to that would seem to be obviously 'Yes'. However the distinction between the two was not really made till fairly recently in Astrological history.

Whether or not the zodiac (itself something that only dates back around 3,000 years) is defined in terms of a start point in the constellation of Aries or by the Vernal equinox, it is at least a very reasonable conjecture that the prime purpose of Astrological forecasting is seasonal - to predict the changes of seasons and that comes down to a 'tropical' underlying reason, even if the zodiac is measured sidereally from Aries - In other words you are taking a modern definition of 'sidereal' astrology and projecting onto cultures that would not know what you are talking about. They might well point out that what matters in the purpose or use of the zodiac and that is the prediction of seasonal change. (a 'tropical' purpose, using modern terminology).

the distinction between the two zodiac concepts here can only be made if there is a concept of the zodiac and if Aries is NOT the beginning of both the 'sidereal' and the 'tropical' zodiac - something that was the case some 4,000 plus years ago and again in the last 2,000 years. As the zodiac only developed in the first millenium BCE, before 3,000 years ago there were no[i/] signs to relate planetary meanings to.

That being said, it seems (and we have no absolute proof) that the 12 month calendar year arose in the palaeolithic period and did focus on the cycles of Sun and Moon and that star constellations, whether in what we now call the zodiac or elsewhere acted as useful markers for predicting seasonal change.

Now how ancient to you want to be here - are we going back 100,000 years, 50,000 years, 5.000 years or 3,000 years. The trouble with the earlier periods is that we have no reliable records at all, so whether they paid any attention to planets other than the Sun and Moon is virtually impossible to know. By the time we do have reliable recording of Astrological/Astronomic change, with the peoples of Mesopotamia, especially the Babylonians i's clear that there [i]are other planets which are considered important. Certainly Venus is seen as the third most important planet. So by the time a zodiac comes into being there are other planets that are related to it. That is not to say that Sun and Moon are not the key planets leading to the origin of a zodiac and its later refinement into signs.

From conventional astrological history, we all probably agree that the above statement is true. The Sun through the signs was both an agricultural-and-seasonal measuring tool as well as a civil calendar tool. The Moon's path or plane of movement interecpted the Sun's plane of movement as well as reflecting light from the Sun as it moved through its own orbital phases. These phases or sign associations or star-grouping associations probably were most applicable to agricultural and religous concerns.

Much has been made of planets traveling and contacting the stars in ancient astrologies, but so much as relating to the "signs."

LET AS ALL ASSUME FOR THE MOMENT THAT THE ABOVE STATEMENTS ARE "TRUE."

Well what is conventional 'astrological history' when it's at home - if we don't know precisely what you mean by that then we are not likely to accept the statement as true. Our views of Astrological history are constantly subject to review and change, and there is of course a lot we don't know - In the last sentence here, did you mean (not) so much as relating to signs, if not I'm not sure what it is you want me to accept as 'true'

We could interpret our charts in terms of 1) the Sun by house, angle, sign, aspect, 2) the Moon primarily by phase-angle or aspect to the Sun and 3) the Moon secondarily by sign and relationship to the planets, and 4) the planets by house, by aspect, by contact with the fixed stars.

I'm assuming now that you are taking signs as being a fundamental of Astrology and certainly I'd go along with that as a reasonable representation of Western and Vedic Astrology over the last 2,500 years. Oddly you miss out one of the main ways in which the Sun has been interpreted in charts over that period - that is by season. The purpose of those observations from stone age times appears to be designed to identify seasonal change and the seasonal nature of the Sun has been reflected in charts both before and after the formalised separation of sidereal and tropical zodiacs. In other words the phase relationship of Sun and Earth is a fundamental of horoscopic Astrology.

One other thing that I'd bring out a little more - you mention Sun by angle, and I'd certainly accept that but the Ascendant is pre-eminent here - indeed without an Ascendant there is no chart because it's the origin of our chart (in the measurement sense of origin

Aspects of planets to fixed stars is certainly another feature of chart analysis that has been present for well over 2,000 years, or at least was present up till the eighteenth century - it seems to have been effectively rejected over the last 100 years, with only Robson's and Brady's work of note.

With those two amendments I'd agree with you


Now, this --- for me --- would be one way to work in a classical astrological mode and would impact the way in which astrology is practiced. ANY COMMENTS OR THOUGHTS? Dave


Well with the amendments of allowing for the Sun's seasonal nature and a strong emphasis on the Ascendant, what you have is the classical way of identifying temperament from a natal chart. The process of making that identification can of course vary and would be an interesting thread in itself.

Welcome to the world of Traditional Astrology!

Saturness
23-09-2011, 07:43
This discussion is completely above and beyond my current astrological expertise so I'll just enjoy reading the discussion. Always a pleasure to see intelligent people discussing a fascinating topic.

However, I am curious about this:

Well with the amendments of allowing for the Sun's seasonal nature and a strong emphasis on the Ascendant, what you have is the classical way of identifying temperament from a natal chart. The process of making that identification can of course vary and would be an interesting thread in itself.

Welcome to the world of Traditional Astrology!

Minderwiz, you often mention the temperament thing and its importance in a chart, and you even pointed it as an way to understand which could the be the strongest factors in a natal chart. Does it have anything to do with the 4 temperaments/humors as known by the ancient medical tradition? Or is it something exclusive of Traditional Astrology? How do you determine temperament in chart?

Perhaps I should open a new thread to ask these question? We have gone a bit out-of-topic here, I wouldn't like to keep deviating if this may bring any problems to the forum...

Thank you! :)

Minderwiz
23-09-2011, 08:12
However, I am curious about this:

Minderwiz, you often mention the temperament thing and its importance in a chart, and you even pointed it as an way to understand which could the be the strongest factors in a natal chart. Does it have anything to do with the 4 temperaments/humors as known by the ancient medical tradition? Or is it something exclusive of Traditional Astrology? How do you determine temperament in chart?

Perhaps I should open a new thread to ask these question? We have gone a bit out-of-topic here, I wouldn't like to keep deviating if this may bring any problems to the forum...

Thank you! :)

Yes you're spot on there, they are the 4 humours of ancient tradition. They are both physical (or were thought of as such) but also the humours determine the core 'personality' or temperament. So we have Choleric, Sanguine, Melancholic and Plegmatic personalities - and those are so ingrained in our history and culture - we still describe people's behaviour and personality using those terms and you will find modern psychological classifications that are in effect, the same thing.

I won't go into the detail of how it's determined from a chart but I will give the main considerations, and there are three key factors -

The Ascendant (which usually includes sign, and sign rulers, and may include planets in the Ascendant and planets aspecting the Ascendant.

The Sun - taken by season, and also it's ruler

The Moon - taken by it's phase relationship to the Sun. and again also including ruler and sign.

Those three key areas are at the core, you may well find some additional factors included such as the Lord of the Geniture (the strongest planet in the chart)

Signs are themselves based on the humours (or the constituents of the humours, hot/cold; moist/dry)

So Fire signs are choleric. Air signs are sanguine, Earth signs are Melacholic and Water signs are phlegmatic.

The Sun is Spring signs is Sanguine, in Summer signs is Choleric, in Autumn Signs is Melancholic and in Winter signs is Phlegmatic. So notice Sun in Aries is Sanguine, not Choleric by it's contribution to temperament. Sun in Aquarius is Phlegmatic by it's contribution to temperament.

The Moon is Sanguine from New Moon to First Quarter, then Choleric to the Full Moon, Melancholic to the Third Quarter and finally Phlegmatic up to the next New Moon.

For a more detailed treatment see the thread

http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=135390

Post #16 top of page 4

There's more in that thread that you might find interesting but that section gives you a specific example and some more consideration of issues.

Yes we are wandering a little off topic but the discussion seems to be well supported and as long as you find it interesting and others do, I'm willing to let it run. However if you want to concentrate on specific new questions please do post a new thread and I hope you've got lots of those questions to ask :)