The origin of Tarot, Kris Hadar, and Occitania

Mr. Hadar sent me the following e-mail, and generously allows me to share some of his thoughts and discoveries with Aeclectic. The e-mail has been translated from French into English. I will first post the original French for those who speak French, and then my translation in a second post. If anyone sees a mistake in my translation, they must please let me know, and I will edit the translation accordingly. Mr. Hadar is writing a book on the History of Tarot, and I am sure he will be expanding on this short e-mail in his book.
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La première chose qu'il faut se poser sur le tarot pour retrouver ses origines est : qui est ce basteleur... dans le tarot. Il ne faut pas perdre de vue que le Tarot, quand il arrive au 18e siècle a
perdu l'image originelle qui fut adaptée à l'air du temps. De mémoire, le roi de France imposa en 1700, la destruction de tous les moules de tarot de l'époque pour redessiner les dessins à la mode de l'époque. Même si c'est une catastrophe, il n'en demeure pas moins que l'adaptation suivait les canons des anciens jeux.

Le Dodal est comme je vous l'ai dit le plus proche du canon originel pour des raisons de faits historiques que je vous parlerai un jour. Le tarot de Jean Payen de 1743 copia le Dodal, et le Conver s'inspira du Payen.

La basteleur est originellement un Jongleur et au 12e siècle, être jongleur est un beau métier : c'était celui de dire... cela n'avait rien à voir avec les jongleurs à l'époque de Romes ou les jongleurs de foire du 13e siècle. Lisez le livre : Nouvelles occitanes du Moyen Age dans la collection GF Flammarion, et vous comprendrez qu'un jongleur au 12e est le porte parole du
Troubadour mais aussi du Savoir !

Et que faisait le Troubadour ? Il chantait la Dame... il chantait le
Monde... car après à connaître sa Dame... c'était découvrir son ÂME ! Bateleur 1 -> le Monde 21 et le Fol est celui qui fait le cheminement de 1 à 21 !

Cette simple réflexion... doit vous amener à penser que le Tarot est Occitan...

Une des premières indications de Tarot qui est effectivement l'anagramme de Rota... est de savoir que le mot Rota est le même mot... encore au 19e siècle pour exprimer la racine latine de Rosa... Rose... car La rose des cathédrale... est aussi la Roue des rosace... Ainsi, le Tarot serait le Roman de la Rose... la Courtoisie... la quête de Soi à travers l'autre !

Personnellement, malgré que j'ai étudié les Templiers... je n'ai trouvé aucune source en rapport avec les Templiers.

Il ne faut pas croire que le Tarot originel était un jeu caché au gens... au 12e... la connaissance occulte est le fait de tous !
D'ailleurs le mot spiritualité fut créé au 19e siècle... au 12e... TOUS les gens sont des mystiques ! ce qui n'est pas la même chose... Comme l'énonce les chroniques de Viterbe... le Tarot est bien un jeu... mais aussi et surtout un jeu de culture qui servait à apprendre à compter, à lire, à comprendre la nature, l'éveil de l'être et comprendre le pourquoi on existe.

Mais aussi étrange que cela puisse paraître... les gens étaient naturellement dans cette quête ! Quête accessible à tous, mais qui demeurait l'appanage des gens bien nés... spirituellement ! Il fait parti du Fin'Amor et du Gai savoir des Occitans qu'on a détruit au nom d'une fausse raison : les Cathares... pour s'approprier de ses trésors. Et le traité de 1229 permis qu'on détruise toute la littérature occitane... qui comme magie s'est retrouvée en Italie et a servit d'ingrédien à la naissance, justement de la Renaissance !... où on retrouve comme par hasard le premier jeu de tarot connu de Visconti Forza vers 1450.

Translation of Mr. Hadar's text

Here is the translation of the above post:

The first thing one needs to ask about tarot in order to find its origins is: Who is this Bateleur… in the tarot.

One must not lose sight of the fact that the Tarot, when it reached the 18th century, had lost its original image which was adapted to suit the mode of the times. If I remember correctly, in about 1700, the King of France ordered the destruction of all the tarot moulds of the time to redesign them to the fashion of the day. Even though this was a catastrophe, the fact still remains that the adaptation followed the canons of the ancient decks.

The Dodal is, as I have mentioned to you already, the closest we can get to the original canon for historical reasons which I will tell you about one day. The tarot of Jean Payen of 1743 copied the Dodal, the Conver was inspired by the Payen.

The Bateleur was originally a Juggler and in the 12th century, to be a juggler was a respected profession : it had to do with “speaking” … nothing to do with the jugglers of the Roman times, or the jugglers found in 13th Century fairs. Read the book “Nouvelles occitanes du Moyen Age” (Collection GF Flammarion), and you will understand that the juggler is the spokesman of the Troubador, but also the spokesman of Knowledge.

And what did the Troubador do ? He sang of the Lady – he sang of the World…because when he had discovered his Lady…he discovered his SOUL! (Note by translator: This is a word-play (language of the birds) impossible to translate, i.e. “Dame” and “Ame” ). The Bateleur 1 – the World 21 and the Fol who is the one who walks from 1 to 21!

This simple reflection should make you realise that the Tarot is Occitanean.

One of the first indications that Tarot is indeed an anagram of Rota – is to know that the word Rota is the same word – even in the 19th Centuray that expresses the latin root « Rosa » … rose… think here The Rose of the cathedral is also the Wheel "of the rosace (rose window)… Therefore the Tarot is also the "Roman de la Rose" …Courtesy… the search for Oneself through the other !

Personally, although I have studied the Templars…I have found no source from that direction.

Do not believe that the original Tarot was a game hidden from people… in the 12th century… occult knowledge was known to all.

In fact, the word « spirituality » was created in the 19th century. In the 12th century, EVERYONE was a mystic! Which is not the same thing… As the Chronicles of Viterbe say.. Tarot is a game.. but also and especially a game of culture the purpose of which was to learn to count, to read, to understand nature, the waking of the being and to understand why one exists. But strange as this may seem.. people were naturally in this quest. A quest accessible to all, but which remained the privilege of people who were well-born…spiritually! It is a part of the Fin’Amor and the Gai Savoir of the Occitanians that was destroyed in the name of a fallacious reason: the Cathars… to appropriate their treasures. And the treaty of 1229 allowed for the destruction of all Occitanian literature, that of the Renaissance!… where one can find, as if by chance, the first known game of Tarot, the Visconti Forza, round 1450.

"Do not believe that the original Tarot was a game hidden from people… in the 12th century… occult knowledge was known to all.
"

Well, a logical contradiction. If all knew it, then it was not occult, but common. Surely there was something, that was common at these older days, and naturally is is occult now, as all past is now occult and not easily accessible.

Europe had a strong fall of culture after the wandering of nations and elemental things for the base of intellectual life dropped in a bad state. This was the "occult mystery" of the time between 5th century and 14th century. Even kings and nobles had trouble to read and to write, the occult mystery of farspread analphabetism reigned.

Surely, also Darwin's apes have occult mysteries, anything has occult mysteries. The mystery is the mystery of life and nature and that it endures from generation to generation. And it's "occult" to us, cause we're a little stupid with our "2-3 % use" of our real mental abilities, that's true.

Just spoken for me: For my mind it's better, that not too much occult things exist, cause this simply means, I didn't understood them. I like to have an open mind, who understands, and I try to interprete things "correctly" according to my best insights.

Surely, the "occult", that's what is unknown to me, is always attractive, as it is the place of my blind spots and surely I've some or better say a lot of them.
But my heart is a hunter and I hunt the occult, that the occult take some metamorphoses into "known reality", and that I do regard as "normal", as any child acts in this way. It adapts the occult mathematic, the occult art of writing, the occult art of speaking and the occult walking at two feet. "Did she say, her name is Mama?"

So, this juggler of 12th century doesn't impress me, normally the searched object is in none of his turned cups, as he's quick with his hands.

We've there documents, which report the development of playing cards in 14th century and Tarot cards in 15th century, and paper mills, which do appear around that time plus printing techniques etc. , and whoever will contribute to this question the theory of an earlier origin, should point to documents of an earlier existence and say, here is an object, from this do conclude that or that ... he points to the troubadours.

Alright, the intellectuals of 12th/13th centuries had their intellectual mysteries, as intellectuals usually have, otherwise they wouldn't be called intellectuals. Occult are these mysteries only to those, who are not intellectual.
One of these mysteries for instance was to know how to play chess ... I'm impressed. Normal people of that time couldn't, it was a great thing, for them, but not to us. Others knew the names of the 12 signs of the zodiac, wonderful. They knew, how the angels should be sorted. Interesting, butthey present a lot of contradictions - they weren't so sure about it. And they speculated, how the world came to that, what they knew about it. In that case their time was similar to ours. We've atom physic and they had their mind only, perhaps some drugs, one shouldn't underestimate that.
Where, precisely, is the Tarot? Should we conclude from the existence of troubadours, which is more or less clear and not new for historical understanding, to the existence of Tarot in a sequence of 22 major arcana or 14 for instance? Why? Only cause the Bateleur looks like a troubadour? The Fortuna-Wheel was already with the Romans, should I conclude now, that Emperor Nero played Tarot with Seneca in his youth? All the motifs of Tarot are older than the cards, they were known and with that older motifs at their time, otherwise the card painter probably wouldn't have chosen them to be a motif in the card deck.

I for one do not believe that one will ever find the origin of Tarot in a written document.

I don't know who destroyed them - but they are gone forever.

So one has to look elsewhere - and that is in the cards themselves. They are what we can trust the most. The pictures are there - they need to be deciphered - that is where one will find the clues needed.

So far, Mr. Hadar's theory (which is not "his" theory - it has been discussed by others) sounds the most plausible to me.....

Although it is with great regret that I put aside the Templars theory (for the moment..... who knows, maybe one day I will pick it up again.)

Exploring documents is fun.... and one can learn a lot.... but it will not lead to the Light. Although it will shed some light, and that is important enough in itself.

Diana said:

au 12e... TOUS les gens sont des mystiques ! ce qui n'est pas la même chose...

Click to expand...

Of course! the possiblity not to be mystical is a modern invention! Kris Hadar's ideas are very compelling. I am in love with the theory for an Occitan/Cathar origin for the tarot. I faintly remember from my distant past of studies, that much of the very civilized and cultured world that had been Roman, was preserved within Occitan civilisation, whereas it had been lost in wilder parts of France.

Originally posted by Diana
I for one do not believe that one will ever find the origin of Tarot in a written document.



Probably just this book exists and Ross, who is here on the list, even visited it recently.
Well, perhaps it's not what you exspected it to be, but that's normal if you decide to look at documents, they're good for surprizes and disappoint and discard earlier theories about their content.
Illusion and dreams have difficulties with truth

http://geocities.com/autorbis/marcello1.html


I don't know who destroyed them - but they are gone forever.

So one has to look elsewhere - and that is in the cards themselves. They are what we can trust the most. The pictures are there - they need to be deciphered - that is where one will find the clues needed.



The document is visible, nobody cared about it for long time. This is quite normal for documents.
All the pictures, that you can see, are paintings of individuals, which reflected reality and their inner in these pictures. Tarot pictures differ from each other - one painter paints this way and another in another style. All this is common for art and art history.
Tarot pictures doesn't in no case differ totally from that what happened in the general art of 15th century, there are just on another media. Some painters paint Frescos, other with soi and some on cards. Nothing special about this. Art is wonderful - generally, and especially the picture of 15th century mirror an interesting development.


So far, Mr. Hadar's theory (which is not "his" theory - it has been discussed by others) sounds the most plausible to me.....


A lot of people had "wrong ideas" in the past "together" - a wrong perception doesn't become true by this. "1+1=2" in the mathematical world, even when 2 or more people, believe, that's "3".

Although it is with great regret that I put aside the Templars theory (for the moment..... who knows, maybe one day I will pick it up again.)

Exploring documents is fun.... and one can learn a lot.... but it will not lead to the Light. Although it will shed some light, and that is important enough in itself.

Why do you know, that documents do not lead to light? Did you try it?
Thanks to some, but few people, who tried it, we know now much more about the history of Tarot. The light there was not only for those who looked, mankind can profit of their energy. Well, it's a scandal of Tarot world, that good and solide informations spreads so slowly ... cause what reason is that possible? Probably cause there are so much people talking with not much evidence perhaps?
The only way to get out of the cloudy words of them is to look at documents and be critical about them. Or are the clouds more loved than the real object? Is the illusion better than reality?

Your link is interesting, Huck.

But I suspect that you and I are looking for something different..... In fact, I am pretty certain we are.

My allopathic doctor laughs his head off when I tell him that I rely mostly on homeopathy. "There is NO EVIDENCE!!!!" he snorts. And he says "If you analyse a homeopathic pill, there is nothing in it!!" and he snorts some more.

Funny though that it cured my chronic bronchitis in less than twenty minutes.

He didn't believe me, of course. But we still remain good friends.

you could ask the tarot itself about its origin.
where is holmes? he would be perfect to read this kinda question.

kris hadars theory sounds very plausible to me, but then, other theories also do.
we might never know.........

Thanks

First, I like historical tarot structures and forms and the palette coloring of the Hader deck is very nice.

Second, I am certain it is difficult to speak of six centuries of history and the movements of European history within six paragraphs. It sounds as if Kris Hader is summarizing via a lecture format and within a certain context--so I am grateful for Diana's translation and interest in bringing it in for discussion.
His site also shows some interesting topics--sometimes I can get to see cards, sometimes not.

Since I am only vaguely acquainted with some of the topics he mentions, I can tell that I am a sequential researcher. I believe he is addressing French history? The shifts this country's small regions between the 12th, 13th, 14th, 15th, 16th, and 17th centuries will take time for me to track...from medieval to Renaissance to Enlightenment?

Mari H.

Nobody would be happier than I to find a thread linking the tarot deck, as an historical artifact, to "Occitania."

I *live* here - in what some consider the very heart of the region. I hear the lengadoc spoken every day. The biggest institution in the world dedicated solely to occitan culture - CIRDOC - is a five-minute walk from my apartment.

http://www.cirdoc.fr/ (closed until the 26th of August).

I'm a rather familiar figure there, most lately in researching the trobars and trobaritz - troubadours, men and women. There is very little they don't have on the subject. But CIRDOC also has plenty of basic and necessary references, such as dictionaries and encyclopedias, that form the main reason for my frequent visits.

Béziers is renowned for its independent, stubborn spirit, and is infamous as the first victim of the Albigensian Crusade.
The church of St. Marie Madeleine, where Simon de Montfort's army massacred thousands on July 22, 1209, and began burning and looting the town, is still a functioning church, although it has changed a little since the 13th century - a lot of history has happened since then. I still always say a De Profundis for the souls of those who were killed when I pass by, or go inside.

Carcassonne is around 70km/45 miles from me; the Centre d'Etudes Cathares is there.
http://www.cathares.org/cec/
I have barely scratched the surface of their rich holdings. Most recently, it was to check a reference in Barbara Newman's essay "WomanSpirit, Woman Pope", concerning Na Prous Boneta, a "spiritual Franciscan" who was arrested in Carcassone in 1325, and a little afterwards burned at the stake there. Another point was to check a reference related indirectly to tarot, since the Centre has the journal it was in.

Imagine! I could solve all the mysteries of tarot with the resources here. It would be perfect. I should be the biggest proponent of the "Occitan-origin theory."

But although surely the spirit that informs some of the designs of the cards - and even more the poetry of Dante and Petrarch - can be traced to the Occitan flowering of the 12th century, I have not, in my researches, found a direct connection.
Even if cards of one sort or another existed (but not only here, of course), this is a far cry from a pack of "carte da trionfi." I haven't found any loose threads leading from the documents on "carte da trionfi" in 15th century northern Italy, to anywhere else, including Provence or Languedoc.

As I said, I would love it to be so. But I have to be honest. Everything in the earliest cards we have is explicable by references to the north Italian environment. The roots of these influences go deep, and in many directions, but the cards themselves, the physical objects, seem to have come about then and there only. I am open to any evidence otherwise, but I haven't seen any.

Ross