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dadsnook2000
14-11-2011, 03:07
in a concurrent post Minderwiz posted Hitler's natal chart. Commentary noted the issues of foretelling the direction he was to follow in his adult life, or even of knowing what was within his general character the led him on the path he took.

The list could explore 1) Hitler's natal chart as if we were just looking at character and general developmental trends, 2) explore progressions and/or directions to see where he was going in the years of politics, prison, and re-entry into politics prior to World War 2, and 3) approach these issues from any other perspective. Wikipedia gives a concise introduction into his early years which we could use as a common reference source. This would be one way for list members to improve their natal chart interpretive skills and to introduce themselves to other related chart methodologies. Dave

Minderwiz
14-11-2011, 06:31
For those who wish to take up Dave's challenge I've attached Hitler's natal chart

With a Libra Ascendant, Sun in Taurus and Moon conjunct Jupiter why did Hitler not turn out to be a monster?

We don't expect perfect answers, it's a problem that has faced Astrologers for over 70 years - but some thoughts on where we might look for clues. The detail of what he did may not be in his natal chart but surely the potential should be.....

I've redone the chart to include the outer planets and Chiron and to use Placidus cusps but there's no need to keep to those if you prefer to use different houses or planets and points.

Minderwiz
14-11-2011, 22:59
These two posts started life in different threads but I think it's best if they become a separate thread.

Any comments or suggestions will be warmly appreciated

dadsnook2000
15-11-2011, 00:02
Some of the many starting points for a broad ranging discussion could include:

** Sun and Mercury bracketing the Descendant angle.
** Venus closely conjoining Mars in the 7th house.
** The Moon-Jupiter pairing in the 3rd house.
** How the generational pattern (significant) of Neptune conjoining Pluto became personaized.
** The square of Saturn in the 10th to Venus-Mars.
** Uranus in the 12th, 7 degrees above the Ascendant, broadly opposite Sun-Mercury, and squaring the Moon's nodal axis.
** How is Chiron integrated into the chart?
** Expression of the Libra-Ascendant and Leo-MC.

List members can, and perhaps should, approach this in a segmented fashion so that each pattern can be related to specific characteristics of the man, his personality, his actions.
Dave

Saturness
15-11-2011, 01:22
I'll definitely give this ago when I get home!
However, I must say my analysis will probably lack some details and depth because I still in the initial stages of study, as you all know... is that ok?

I also would like to add that a Brazilian astrologer wrote a book analyzing Hitler's natal chart and transits from important moments of his life. It's interesting. However, as I stated in that other thread, I really think she used hindsight to put all under the most negative prism possible, which is something I feel uncomfortable with. A person can develop his worst traits but it doesn't mean that every potential in the map is negative.

The historical background she gives in the book is VERY good though. I may post some translated quotes if it adds to the discussions. Just from the historical part, not the chart analysis.

The challenge is a bit scary, lol! :laugh:

214red
15-11-2011, 03:55
great excercise, we did the hitler birth chart in class and was facinating!

ihcoyc
16-11-2011, 06:34
When I set this up locally, the main features I notice are Saturn, in the tenth house of career and political leadership, being squared by retrograde Venus conjunct Mars out of the seventh. Venus is the ruler of the Ascendant. Saturn is a co-ruler by dignity at the rising degree there.

His Mercury, combust (when is Mercury not combust?) has just set and entered the sixth house, indicating among other things evil fancies and mental problems.

Moon conjunct Jupiter trines the setting sun. However, the moon is on M22 / Facies, the face of (sidereal) Sagittarius, one of the most baleful stars (actually a star cluster) in the sky. Probably next worst after Algol. "Blindness, violent death ..... leadership, war, coldness, detachment, perfectionism; earthquakes; pure combative energies; risk-taking, glamour" are some of its traditional meanings, and Hitler's emotional life is shaped by this star. This emotional state is being pushed in the direction of the descending degree, thus onto other people.

Hitler's Part of Fortune, in the ninth house, is in opposition to his Moon and Jupiter as well. Hitler fancied himself a scholar and an intellectual, a person who understood about nations and peoples. But his reactions were emotionally colored and chauvinistic, being colored by his Capricorn Moon in the third house.

Cor serpentis
16-11-2011, 07:28
Moon conjuct Jupiter in Capricorn...well, Moon in his detriment, Jupiter in his fall. Both planets are in conjuction with Facies, the most agressive nebula (SO/MA nature).
When I set this up locally, the main features I notice are Saturn, in the tenth house of career and political leadership, being squared by retrograde Venus conjunct Mars out of the seventh. Venus is the ruler of the Ascendant. Saturn is a co-ruler by dignity at the rising degree there.

His Mercury, combust (when is Mercury not combust?) has just set and entered the sixth house, indicating among other things evil fancies and mental problems.

Moon conjunct Jupiter trines the setting sun. However, the moon is on M22 / Facies, the face of (sidereal) Sagittarius, one of the most baleful stars (actually a star cluster) in the sky. Probably next worst after Algol. "Blindness, violent death ..... leadership, war, coldness, detachment, perfectionism; earthquakes; pure combative energies; risk-taking, glamour" are some of its traditional meanings, and Hitler's emotional life is shaped by this star. This emotional state is being pushed in the direction of the descending degree, thus onto other people.

Hitler's Part of Fortune, in the ninth house, is in opposition to his Moon and Jupiter as well. Hitler fancied himself a scholar and an intellectual, a person who understood about nations and peoples. But his reactions were emotionally colored and chauvinistic, being colored by his Capricorn Moon in the third house.


Edit: Didn't see previous post :( I've read really awesome analysis of his chart, but in my language...
His Mercury isn't combust. Both planets (Sun and other :) )have to be in same sign. If planets are in different signs - we have no combustion. Hitler's Mercury is in orb for combustion, but Sun is in Taurus, Mercury in Aries.

Saturn has accidental dignity in house X, but Saturn is in his detriment, so he couldn't bring much good in that position....

(off topic - My Ascedant is in conjuction with Facies lol)

dadsnook2000
16-11-2011, 08:13
Since part of the mission of this thread is to learn and practice reading charts and understanding how the chart relates to the life of the person, I offer the following comment in the most kindly meant manner.

You offered, "Moon conjuct Jupiter in Capricorn...well, Moon in his detriment, Jupiter in his fall. Both planets are in conjuction with Facies, the most agressive nebula (SO/MA nature)."

** This doesn't actually say anything (such as what we would say to a friend or client) what those astrological factors mean.

You noted, "His Mercury isn't combust. Both planets (Sun and other )have to be in same sign. If planets are in different signs - we have no combustion. Hitler's Mercury is in orb for combustion, but Sun is in Taurus, Mercury in Aries."

** This also lacks useful insight.

And, "Saturn has accidental dignity in house X, but Saturn is in his detriment, so he couldn't bring much good in that position...."

It is so useful to use a few keywords, if you wish to keep it basic, and then fit them to the life of a politician and pro-military man. This is how we gain self-confidence and learn our craft. Both Minderwiz and I, as well as every other astrologer, have made specific statements and have been shown to be wrong entirely or misdirected the given meaning to the context of the person's situation. Please try again. I'm sure you'll benefit, and those of us who believe we have a handle on this will better understand how to help learning students. Dave.

dadsnook2000
16-11-2011, 09:30
Neptune-Pluto in Hitler's 8th house in early Gemini is an unusual chart pattern (thank heavens) which I will attempt to address. Since I am a "modern" astrologer and use the outer planets, this chart pattern falls to me to address. Others may choose to enter their views.

BACKGROUND
Neptune-Pluto cycles last about 500 years and coincide with important shifts in western (Greek origin) culture. This conjunction (allowing a 15 degree orb for mundane usage) occurred around 500-565 BC, 85-82 BC, 410-413 AD, 904-906, 1397-1400, and 1880-1905.

These periods, in broad terms, resulted in turmoil and severe transformations that seemed to cleanse some aspects of cultural thought and bring in newer visions to be experienced. We might choose to see this simplistic observation as representing wars and other collapses of cultural stability due to strange visions and ideologies (a negative interpretation) followed by a total rebuilding and adoption of new visions and institutions to serve those consensus ideals (a positive interpretation).

HITLER's CHART
Neptune is 4 degrees from conjoining Pluto, and is located in Hitler's 8th house. This chart is placed in the year of 1885 ---- we should keep this in mind. By the turn of the century, Neptune was alread 10 or more degrees ahead of Pluto and separating. Major aspects to this pair seem to be few and far between (except to the MC angle). However, this pair (with a midpoint of 2 Gemini) is semi-square (45 degrees) to Saturn in the 10th and sesqiquadrate (135 degrees) Uranus in the 12th. Neptune is semi-sextile (30 degrees) to the Sun near the Descendant angle. Let us look at each of these patterns.

** Neptune-Pluto, Gemini and 8th house: Hitler has a sense of fundamental social change that is occurring in Europe as he grows and develops. As a young student, this was expressed in terms of bizzar and striking artwork that could be seen as disturbing and visionary. As he became more socially aware, he saw Germany's political changes, maneuvering of political players and their disruptive impact on Germany's relations with its neighbors, the putting in place of restrictions upon the country in terms of its ambitions and armaments to support those ambitions, and the disruptive internal politics and government upheavals.

Hitler participated in some of that disbruptive internal maneuvering and came out on the short end of the stick, being imprisoned for his views and actions. Rebellion to gain control, helping to disrupt the political structure of his country, following someone's elses vision which he felt he shared. While in jail he formulated his own vision and wrote a book about it.

As Germany moved through the early 1930's Neptune formed an opening semi-square to Pluto (from Cancer, 9th house to Virgo, 10th house). This opening phase (of eight phases) denotes a time of struggle to be free of the past, to form a new identity. Hitler's 8th house fits with my interpretation of the 8th being a house of unequal sharing. Rather than experiencing his 8th house planets as if he was manipulated by society, he chose to to be the manipulator of others. It will be necessary for someone to evaluate other patterns in his chart that support this statement!

Identifying with the changing Pluto-Neptune cycle, in the 9th & 10th houses, Hitler sought to impose (Pluto) his vision (Neptune) by rearranging his country's understanding of how to deal with "others" (9th house) (countries and internal ethnic groups) to accomplish (10th house) his vision through deceit and propaganda and outlandish misrepresentations (Neptune). Most of the decade prior to World War II resulted in reshaping politics, cultural expectations, using ethnic groups to depress while building up the primary German population by contrast, all to whip up excitement and support for his control of the country.

** Saturn in Leo, in the 10th. For mundane astrology, Saturn in Leo seems not to be a great place. On an individual level, Saturn in Leo suggests one who hesitates to express feelings, but seeks to control emotions. Nature is one outlet that helps self-expression (Hitler often went to his Austrian mountains to get away from pressures). One wants to be the center of attention, especially in controlled or staged situations. On a larger scale we can look back and take note of the alteration between public performances and speeches contrasted to private doubts, rants and excessive tensions and re-planning. He crafted public bigger-then-life events to reflect his sought-after importance.

** Uranus in Libra, on a personal level, focuses upon innovation in relationships, changes in relationships. On a national level this can be related to constant changes in his staff, in his policies, in his war plans, in his trust of others. Much of this was hidden from the public and his country's enemies, but that was not a total success. Uranus in the 12th house points to a focus on psychology, mystical and spiritual topics. Hitler used these factors as part of his total tool box of warring against others ---- personal, political, military, national population.

IN SUMMARY
Concerning just this Pluto-Neptune pattern, we can see how the above mentioned views seem to fit with what we casually know and/or remember about this man, this period in history. All of this will be subject to astrological adjustment as other chart patterns are explored, and subject to historical question by those who do any historical review on Wikipedia or other sources. Corrections or contradiction should be noted. Do not take my views as being the correct or only views.

I hope this gets our discussions underway. Dave

ihcoyc
16-11-2011, 10:30
One thing I'd add is that Saturn, in the tenth house, is one of the things I tend to associate with poor career performance. Whatever Hitler was, that isn't really something he could be accused of.

On the other hand, you look at the facts of his life: he failed as a painter. He led a failed coup. He kept on trying until finally he became the leader of his country. That's Saturnian perseverence.

His Saturn is getting an unfriendly aspect from Venus and Mars. Venus is retrograde, but essentially strong, in her own sign. Mars is in detriment. Not only are these planets aspecting Saturn, but their antiscions are conjunct one another. (Antiscion Saturn is at 16 Taurus; antiscion Venus and Mars are both at 13 Leo).

I get the feeling that no matter what Hitler achieved, it would never be enough. He was doomed to be always unsatisfied with what he had done in his career; miserly Saturn, insatiable Venus, and aggressive Mars made sure of it. He'd always feel a failure inside no matter what he did. So you became chancellor of Germany? Well, it took you long enough. Maybe if I conquer Poland and France, Mother will love me again.

Saturness
16-11-2011, 10:37
I am sorry for my delay, I had a small internet problem. But now I will give this a try.

I'd like to say that my analysis will be very simple because I am not well acquainted with all aspects yet, so it's hard for me to look at a chart and immediately understand how the planets affect each other. Please, no rotten tomatoes! Most of my interpretations come from my own notes and some books... I apologize if some sound "stiff" as I am still coming to grips with the astrological language.

First, on Mercury being Combust, I have to disagree with Cor serpentis. I think it IS indeed Combust - according to my research Mercury has to be 14º or less away from the Sun in either side to be Combust (and in Hitler's chart is is). None of my sources say it has to be on the same sign. I also disagree that it'd be an immediate indication of "mental problems" as ihcoyc said - Mercury stays combust for more than half of the year. That would mean that a big part of the population would have "evil mental problems". I am sure these tendencies could be indicated by other elements in the chart.

Back to it. My first ideas:

While looking for general patterns, I noticed that this chart has a lot of planets in the Western part of the chart - "setting" planets. According to one of my books, this symbolizes that this person's life is very connected - and sometimes dependent - on other people's life. I'd would say that Hitler needed to be with the right kind of people to rise and, indeed, he was.

Sun in Taurus indicates someone who prefers to stabilize things. The native tends to deal with things in a rather practical way, seeking to conserve all as it is intend of trying new ways. Taurus has a tendency to retain things, emotions, memories and ideas, and clings to them. In the 7th House, this Sun shows that the native will "cast his light" upon the others, kind of mesmerize them (and perhaps blind them at the same time). He may also be a bit dependent on how others see him.

Libra rising, with a Taurus Sun, can make the native a lover of beauty because of the strength of Venus in the chart. However, is cools a bit Taurus earthy sensuality, rendering him a bit more detached and mental. This is complemented by his Moon in detriment. The Native seeks order and "perfection" in a sense, and is sometime slow to make decisions and take actions.

Moon in Capricorn, it's in a detrimental position, which renders the individual a bit cold and capable to detaching himself from his emotions when needed. Capricorn stabilizes the Moon, and gives it ambition. Because the Moon is also related to how you draw people to you (like the Moon itself attracts the tides) , I'd say this native is someone who will seek a lot of public attention and honor.

Both the Sun and the Rising sign have the same ruler, Venus, so I think this would give this planets a special strength. Also, I'd say that Libra rising would make Hitler appear more charming than he actually was inside, because Libra is a gentleman when dealing with others (even if the emotions inside disagree, bur Air signs don't care so much about emotions).

I think it's interesting look for Venus, because of its importance. It's in Taurus, conjunct with Mars in the 7th House. It's in its rulership and within its house, I'd day it's completely comfortable there. My first idea of a Venus so strong is related to his interest in art and beauty, because this is one thing that Hitler focused on before his political career. His high ideals of perfection could be also connected to this. In the 7th house, Venus makes the native popular with the public and pleasant when dealing with others.

It's funny that Mars, being in the same house, could represent strife with others. Mars is in detriment in Taurus, and not well-placed in the 7th house - it's not feeling very comfortable. So I think the aspect between Mars and Venus would not be all flowers, because of Mars' bad position. So this conjunction feels a bit inharmonious. According to my notes, in a man's chart this combination makes one proud and arrogant. It also makes the native fight the people he loves quite often, and lose his temper on them.

Mercury in Aries makes the native good at discussing and arguing, passionate when speaking and also a natural leader. His mind and words are kind of guided by the instinct, and because Mercury is in the 6th House this shows his communication skills will be important at his job. Because Mercury is Combust, it could indicate some difficulties in learning

Well... that's it for now. I focused on the personal planets first, now I'll take a look at Jupiter and Saturn and the outer planets. I am sorry if I was verbose, I wanted to show where my conclusions came from... as a part of my own study. Please, feel free to correct me if I said anything stupid.

Thank you very much for reading this. :)

dadsnook2000
16-11-2011, 11:00
Marina, thank you. I enjoyed your observations. Like always, when reading someone's views on a chart, I've learned several things. Dave

Saturness
16-11-2011, 22:59
Marina, thank you. I enjoyed your observations. Like always, when reading someone's views on a chart, I've learned several things. Dave

Thank you very much Dave, your opinion is very important to me. :)

I realize that I have the benefit of the hindsight when it comes to Hitler's life, because he's someone from the past and I happen to have studied his biography sometimes. I am no specialist, but I know some facts.

I did try to interpret a chart in a way that avoid obvious 'a-ha!' moments, and things like "so this is WHY he blah blah blah", because it's easy to think every little detail connects to and/or justifies a situation. I don't believe Hitler did what he did and was who he was merely because his natal chart told so. But it may show the tendencies that would later flourish in the Führer figure.

Tonight I'll take a look at Jupiter and Saturn, and probably at that glaring Uranus over there. :) I'll try to keep it simple, like the first part.

Minderwiz
17-11-2011, 00:49
Firstly the issue of Mercury's combustion. Cor Sepentis is not wrong, nor for that matter is Marina. There's conflicting views here. Indeed Lilly defines Combustion as:

'when in the same sign as the Sun is in.........(and) not distant from the Sun eight and a half degrees'

Now that seems clear enough but Lilly then goes on to say 'it's the body of the Sun that does afflict'. Well if it's the 'body' that does 'afflict' then it's physical proximity that is important and not zodiacal longitude. Lilly also says nothing about sign placement when he talks about Under the beams, the condition immediately preceding and then succeeding Combustion. Lilly lists a debility score of -4 for Under the beams, and -5 for Combustion, so there's not a massive benefit from only being 'Under the beams'.

My own view, for what it's worth is that it is the physical proximity that matters and Mercury is combust in Hitler's chart - however, that's an opinion, not fact.

Secondly, Cor serpentis makes a good attempt to introduce star aspects - in particular conjunctions and this is something that Modern Astrology rarely does, though there's absolutely no reason why that should be the case. Facies, is characterised by Bernadette Brady as being 'Ruthless' and also 'a Victim'. Now Hitler did see himself, and Germany as the victim of (for him) the betrayal of the 'November criminals' who signed the Armistice in 1918. There's little doubt that Hitler could be ruthless. These days we might have advised Hitler to seek counselling for his obsession with the November betrayal'

Dave introduce the Neptune/Pluto cycle. Now, as is well known I'm not a fan of these two
and don't really feel they do much good in natal Astrology. However, Dave's point is actually more related to Mundane Astrology - the conditions nationally and indeed globally during Hitler's life - and in the case of Mundane Astrology, there may well be a case for using these two and even Uranus. Certainly Dave's point is one which we should pay a lot of attention to, because Hitler's career cannot be explained without reference to the international and national situation. think there's more that we can get from that field.

Marina is so right to draw our attention to Venus and it's manifestation in his chart - Hindsight says that Hitler was pure evil, so how could he have gained power? Surely tThe Germans too must have been evil or unable to see clearly his true nature? Much of the post war hubris of the West was 'it couldn't happen here'. However Hitler does have a personable side, Hitler played on the German sense of injustice in the post war settlement and sadly, Germany is not the only country to have ceded power to someone who turns out to be 'evil' in hindsight - Cromwell in England, and Robespierre in France spring to mind. They did not however have the means of mass destruction that Hitler had at his disposal. She is also right about Hitler's career - he was a failure at everything he tried - you can't be a bigger failure than to destroy utterly your own country and hand it over to it's enemies.

Some things that struck me - Hitler is Melancholic - quite strongly so. He also has a Sanguine side that is significant and perhaps explains why he managed to work so well with others. Hitler's significator of Manners is Jupiter (they're being no planet in the Ascendant we look to planets which are with the Moon or Mercury). Jupiter brings an ability to get on well with others, However Jupiter is in Fall and Lilly says it signifies -

'lovers of themselves....a scornful disdainful mind, proud, superstitious, fearful, dissembling, a kind of vain candour, negligent, prodigal'.

That certainly seems to fit with what we know of Hitler, he was superstitious, he did see and fear conspiracies, and he was scornful and disdainful of others.

If we look at the essential dignity of his planets virtually all are weak, except for Venus. Which is Lady of his Geniture. However Venus has problems - in his chart Venus is Lord of the eighth and Lord of the twelfth - the two worst Houses in his chart - Venus is an accidental malefic. Venus is in partile conjuction with Mars, the natural significator of war and violence and Mars is Lord 6 (as well as ruling the Descendant). So Mars is not only a natural malefic and thus afflicts Venus, but is also an accidental malefic. Both these two are squared by Saturn from the tenth. Saturn is in detriment and therefore essentially weak but is in a strong place. The Square itself is not partile, so we might weaken this link BUT the antiscion of Saturn is 16 degrees Taurus - Saturn has a double connection to these two planets and one of them is accurate to the degree. Venus is thus afflicted by both malefics and both the malefics are essentially weak - and when weak they become more dangerous. Saturn is also the Almuten of Hitler's Libra Ascendant, not Venus (something that Cor serpentis picked up on).

Hitler's MC is ruled by the Sun, and of course Rulership is one of the solar careers - Hitler did indeed get to the top. His Sun however is Peregrine, so Hitler will only get to the top, if he has a lot of help from benefactors. And indeed he did - politically he allied with Ludendorf in the early years and he got financial support from may industrialists. Hitler's Sun is in conjunction with Sharatan a fixed star which is said to bring 'bodily injuries, unscrupulous defeat, destruction by fire, war or earthquake' (OK the earthquake was missing but the rest is correct). Hitler's MC is conjunct the star Praesepe which the Chinese associated with 'Exhaltation of piled up corpses' and in the west, with 'brutality, wantoness and adventure.'

So it's not so much the planets that cause us to see something 'special' in Hitler's chart but the addition of aspects to the fixed stars by key planets - Moon and Sun, and key points, the MC.

Now Dave would like to know how we counsel Hitler. The problem here is that the national and international context heightened his susceptibility to pursue the career path he took. How do we dispel those perceptions? Counselling only works if the subject wishes to be counselled. Hitler might have met a 'Dave type' person in the trenches, then perhaps he might have learnt by example but by 1923 the die was cast. Of course, if Dave or I had been in Landsberg prison, perhaps Hitler might have taken up Astrology instead of writing Mein Kampf. Do such meetings nudge us from one path onto another?

dadsnook2000
17-11-2011, 01:46
Minderwiz, its interesting that you mention 1923, a significant year for Hitler. I've done a precession-corrected Solar Return for 1923 and find interesting patterns. The interpretations I give are taken from my book.

April 22, 1923. MC 24:20 Aries (a degree or so from his natal Desc.), Asc. 10:39 Leo (6 degrees or so from his natal MC). The UT of the chart is 10h41m56s should anyone want to recreate it for themselves. I kept the natal location out of convenience (read as being lazy).

** MC/s @ Des/n: Life will take a new turn this year which you will have to adapt to. Plans and projects will either have to moved forward or will be delayed.

** Asc/s @ MC/n: Image and respect are overly important right now. If denied, actions will be take (reflecting any angular planets). Sun, Mercury, Neptune, Saturn, Uranus were all angular. We can read these symbols of his actions --- storming the political meeting of a poiitical adversary, waving a gun, ranting at the crowd, announcing a takeover, throwing out the adversary's supporters, later marching on government institutions, insisting that he would lead everyone to a new Germany. We just don't know "when" these actions will take place in that year using the Solar Return chart.

Progressing the angles of that S/R to Nov. 8, 1923 we find the following data:
Nov. 8, 1923. MC @ 17:21 Cancer, Asc. @ 13:41 Libra. UT is 03h20m00s at the natal birth locations.

** MC is close to the natal Node: Associations will support ones goals.

** Asc. conjoins transiting Mars: One acts with great passion and energy. Since natal Mars is in the natal 7th house and daily chart's 8th house, we might see this as partners are involved but their involvement will be unequal (8th house). Transiting Mars in the daily charts 1st house (personal strong actions) will take dominence over natal Mars in the 7th or 8th. Hitler will insist o this being his party.

No matter which methods or charts we use, Astrology works well in painting a picture of ourselves and the events we participate in. That is the enticing mystery for us astrologers as well as the difficult part of explaining it to non-astrologers. Dave

rota
17-11-2011, 01:52
following this discussion with interest. many thanks to the writers!

Saturness
17-11-2011, 02:47
Firstly the issue of Mercury's combustion. Cor Sepentis is not wrong, nor for that matter is Marina. There's conflicting views here. Indeed Lilly defines Combustion as:

'when in the same sign as the Sun is in.........(and) not distant from the Sun eight and a half degrees'

Now that seems clear enough but Lilly then goes on to say 'it's the body of the Sun that does afflict'. Well if it's the 'body' that does 'afflict' then it's physical proximity that is important and not zodiacal longitude. Lilly also says nothing about sign placement when he talks about Under the beams, the condition immediately preceding and then succeeding Combustion. Lilly lists a debility score of -4 for Under the beams, and -5 for Combustion, so there's not a massive benefit from only being 'Under the beams'.

Well, I must confess I disagreed with her as based on my study. When researching some common astrological definition (as to make a 'personal glossary') I researched the term 'Combust' in the books and sites I could find and I cannot recall they mentioning that Mercury needed to be in the same sign as the Sun. That would certainly reduce the amount of charts with Combust Mercury.

Unfortunately, I never read anything by Lilly, so I didn't know his point of view. If Cor Serpentis was using Lilly's theory, then she was right, of course. :) In this case I apologize!


Marina is so right to draw our attention to Venus and it's manifestation in his chart - Hindsight says that Hitler was pure evil, so how could he have gained power? Surely tThe Germans too must have been evil or unable to see clearly his true nature? Much of the post war hubris of the West was 'it couldn't happen here'. However Hitler does have a personable side, Hitler played on the German sense of injustice in the post war settlement and sadly, Germany is not the only country to have ceded power to someone who turns out to be 'evil' in hindsight - Cromwell in England, and Robespierre in France spring to mind. They did not however have the means of mass destruction that Hitler had at his disposal. She is also right about Hitler's career - he was a failure at everything he tried - you can't be a bigger failure than to destroy utterly your own country and hand it over to it's enemies.

Well, we know from biography that Hitler was rather indolent, specially in his youth. You can say he lacked some choleric traits in his life (lol!). He wasn't a failure because the world is a dark and unfair place - he was because many times he did not dedicate himself as much as he should have in the right moments. Although he'd become more 'dedicated' in his final career (politician), still was a lot was pretty much in the hands of other people. When they began to lose the was, it was not Hitler who had failed Germany - it was Germany who had failed him, in his vision. He was moved by passion much more than by any responsibility with what he did.

He could have been an architect, but he did not have the academic credentials to enter the Architecture school. That's because during all his childhood he had problems to follow discipline at school (a very strict one) - one of the reasons behind his conflicts with his father. Instead of trying harder, he challenged the strict discipline of his father and school by becoming indolent, dreaming and getting bad grades.

It's interesting to see that in his chart that Saturn squares Venus. I know this aspect has many meanings, but I think this could represent this particular trait too. He saw authority over him as 'injustice', and he projected this feeling on his whole nation in a time they were ready to accept it. Venus is stronger than Saturn in this chart, because although Saturn is in the 10th house, it's in Leo which put it in a detrimental position.


Some things that struck me - Hitler is Melancholic - quite strongly so. He also has a Sanguine side that is significant and perhaps explains why he managed to work so well with others. Hitler's significator of Manners is Jupiter (they're being no planet in the Ascendant we look to planets which are with the Moon or Mercury). Jupiter brings an ability to get on well with others, However Jupiter is in Fall and Lilly says it signifies -

'lovers of themselves....a scornful disdainful mind, proud, superstitious, fearful, dissembling, a kind of vain candour, negligent, prodigal'.

That certainly seems to fit with what we know of Hitler, he was superstitious, he did see and fear conspiracies, and he was scornful and disdainful of others.

That's a very interesting analysis! I completely forgot to check his temperament first - even if I don't really use Traditional Astrology, I think it's a very interesting factor to take into account!

I'd like to add that I know Uranus (Minderwiz don't kill me!!! :P) is a 'social planet', but since it's conjunct with the ASC, I wonder if it becomes a bit more personalized. I would say Hitler lived in a moment of big changes, and he over-identified himself with these changes. He believed himself the 'bringer of revolution', and yet (as his own nature was a 'fixed'), he could not handle these changes. As many other revolutionaries he didn't have the responsibility and strength to see the revolution through.

Uranus is also in the 12th house, which is not a very good place to be. I think this is connected to "humanitarian ideals gone wrong". I am sure Hitler didn't wake up one morning and decided 'today I'll destroy Germany' - he saw himself as a savior. And yet he destroyed his country.

Uranus in the 12th House can also symbolize paranoia.

Now Dave would like to know how we counsel Hitler. The problem here is that the national and international context heightened his susceptibility to pursue the career path he took. How do we dispel those perceptions? Counselling only works if the subject wishes to be counselled. Hitler might have met a 'Dave type' person in the trenches, then perhaps he might have learnt by example but by 1923 the die was cast. Of course, if Dave or I had been in Landsberg prison, perhaps Hitler might have taken up Astrology instead of writing Mein Kampf. Do such meetings nudge us from one path onto another?

Hum... I think we'd have to decide what would Adolf like to know. I think he might have come to an Astrologer when he found out he could not become an architect (around 1905) or when his mother died, in 1907. He was very close to his mother, and (according to some biographers) she was a bit responsible for 'spoiling' him and making him dislike authority (she was a soft contrast to his father strict authority). So this could be a moment in which he'd come to Dave for a reading - he was 18 and pretty much lost in life.

By the time he was in prison and writing Main Kampf, many tendencies has already begun to show and crystallize, so it may have been a bit late to counsel him. But if he met Dave in prison... that would make such a COOL movie, lol! :laugh: "When Hitler was an Astrologer."

I honestly don't think he was born the Antichrist. Perhaps with the right kind of counseling when he was young things would have been different...

Minderwiz
17-11-2011, 05:13
Well, I must confess I disagreed with her as based on my study. When researching some common astrological definition (as to make a 'personal glossary') I researched the term 'Combust' in the books and sites I could find and I cannot recall they mentioning that Mercury needed to be in the same sign as the Sun. That would certainly reduce the amount of charts with Combust Mercury.

Unfortunately, I never read anything by Lilly, so I didn't know his point of view. If Cor Serpentis was using Lilly's theory, then she was right, of course. :) In this case I apologize!

Absolutely no need to apologise - I happen to agree with you that combustion is simply being within 8.5 degrees of the Sun and the signs of the planet and Sun are immaterial (though obviously either the same or adjacent signs). I'm not even sure that Lilly was ruling out the existence of an 'out of sign' conjunction as involving combustion, however it clearly reads as such.




It's interesting to see that in his chart that Saturn squares Venus. I know this aspect has many meanings, but I think this could represent this particular trait too. He saw authority over him as 'injustice', and he projected this feeling on his whole nation in a time they were ready to accept it. Venus is stronger than Saturn in this chart, because although Saturn is in the 10th house, it's in Leo which put it in a detrimental position.

Yes that's an excellent point - don't forget that the same planetary complex can mean different things at the same time or at different times (obviously within the symbology of the planets and their rulerships), so Saturn square Venus/Mercury can have that meaning in Hitler's life.


Uranus is also in the 12th house, which is not a very good place to be. I think this is connected to "humanitarian ideals gone wrong". I am sure Hitler didn't wake up one morning and decided 'today I'll destroy Germany' - he saw himself as a savior. And yet he destroyed his country.

Uranus in the 12th House can also symbolize paranoia.

:) I promise not to kill you :) I think Uranus' association with the 'social' is because Aquarius is a humane (and therefore 'social') sign. Certainly Modern Astrology associates Uranus with revolution and certainly Hitler intended to be revolutionary and indeed the Munich Putsch was an attempt at a revolutionary takeover. He might have been melancholic, but his Saturn is weak (and therefore erratic) and all his other planets are weak (bar Venus) so he was not good at the Melancholic's strength - making plans and left that to others, he just set the strategic goals. Uranus is also associated with the eccentric and Hitler was seen as a semi comic eccentric until it was perhaps too late.


Hum... I think we'd have to decide what would Adolf like to know. I think he might have come to an Astrologer when he found out he could not become an architect (around 1905) or when his mother died, in 1907. He was very close to his mother, and (according to some biographers) she was a bit responsible for 'spoiling' him and making him dislike authority (she was a soft contrast to his father strict authority). So this could be a moment in which he'd come to Dave for a reading - he was 18 and pretty much lost in life.


I honestly don't think he was born the Antichrist. Perhaps with the right kind of counseling when he was young things would have been different...

I agree with you, especially your last statement, The problem is that even if he had consulted an Astrologer at age 18 and taken advice and acted on it, the first world war intervened. He certainly would have joined the Army, and those 4 years of War plus the first years of the new Republic, would probably still have produced the same result. The situation in Germany between 1919 and 1921 was one with a real threat of revolution - though the fear was a Bolshevik uprising. We need to remember that Hitler was not alone - thousands more had similar feelings and desires relating to getting Germany back on her feet and to resist the post war settlement. The issue becomes, could Hitler have been rescued and helped to redirect his energies into a positive and constructive approach, which is why I focussed on the immediate post war situation. It would be nice to think so.

Minderwiz
17-11-2011, 05:59
Minderwiz, its interesting that you mention 1923, a significant year for Hitler. I've done a precession-corrected Solar Return for 1923 and find interesting patterns. The interpretations I give are taken from my book.

April 22, 1923. MC 24:20 Aries (a degree or so from his natal Desc.), Asc. 10:39 Leo (6 degrees or so from his natal MC). The UT of the chart is 10h41m56s should anyone want to recreate it for themselves. I kept the natal location out of convenience (read as being lazy).

** MC/s @ Des/n: Life will take a new turn this year which you will have to adapt to. Plans and projects will either have to moved forward or will be delayed.

** Asc/s @ MC/n: Image and respect are overly important right now. If denied, actions will be take (reflecting any angular planets). Sun, Mercury, Neptune, Saturn, Uranus were all angular. We can read these symbols of his actions --- storming the political meeting of a poiitical adversary, waving a gun, ranting at the crowd, announcing a takeover, throwing out the adversary's supporters, later marching on government institutions, insisting that he would lead everyone to a new Germany. We just don't know "when" these actions will take place in that year using the Solar Return chart.

Progressing the angles of that S/R to Nov. 8, 1923 we find the following data:
Nov. 8, 1923. MC @ 17:21 Cancer, Asc. @ 13:41 Libra. UT is 03h20m00s at the natal birth locations.

** MC is close to the natal Node: Associations will support ones goals.

** Asc. conjoins transiting Mars: One acts with great passion and energy. Since natal Mars is in the natal 7th house and daily chart's 8th house, we might see this as partners are involved but their involvement will be unequal (8th house). Transiting Mars in the daily charts 1st house (personal strong actions) will take dominence over natal Mars in the 7th or 8th. Hitler will insist o this being his party.

No matter which methods or charts we use, Astrology works well in painting a picture of ourselves and the events we participate in. That is the enticing mystery for us astrologers as well as the difficult part of explaining it to non-astrologers. Dave

It's interesting to note, as you do some of the Astrological changes coming into play. I've not done a SR chart for 1923, so I found your take quite informative. What I did do very briefly is have a look at some of the other indicators.

At the specific level of 1923 Hitler had two Primary Directions - The first comes on 19th March, just 3 days before the Precession Corrected Return. The trine of Jupiter came to his MC. So this is clearly related to career, and social standing. If Jupiter were natally strong, this would suggest some career advancement - but Jupiter is actually in Fall. So we might conclude that this direction might lead to advancement in career but not easily, possibly involving the law and possibly at some cost. Although the Munich Putsch was a fiasco, Hitler actually did benefit from it - he became noticed, and the trial gave him publicity. The sentence was reduced and he came out of it with a higher public profile.

The second actually comes on 1 November, a week before the Putsch. This brought Venus to the Descendant. i.e. in opposition to the Ascendant. Venus is the natal Ascendant Ruler, so what is normally interpreted as 'trouble with women or overindulgence in Venereal pursuits, now has the possible meaning of acting against his own interests, but also acting in the interests of others and for others.

On the same day he had the profected Sun sextile Venus. The Sun rules his MC, and naturally is a significator of social standing. Venus is his Ascendant ruler, but also Lords 8 and 12, so this is not necessarily favourable for career.

Remember that natally Venus is with Mars and squared by Saturn, so it's not surprising that violence and miitary style action were involved. 1923 could have been the end of his political life - but it wasn't. Again the actions of others are crucial.

At a more general level, Hitler's time lord by Firdaria changed to the Moon, in April 1920, the month after he left the Army and during this lunar period he was the incipient revolutionary, a period in which he achieved public prominence, in which his political instincts governed his actions and this lasted through till April 1929. The Muich Putsch came during the Jupiter sub period which was the high water mark of this firdaria. Hitler's popularity waned for the rest of the period and the votes of the National Socialists fell. So again perhaps there might have been opportunities during the later years of the decade for Hitler to rethink and regroup in a more constructive way. Hitler's new life period starting in 1929 coincided with the economic collapse and his own rise to power - Saturn was his Ascendant Almuten.