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Saturness
16-12-2011, 23:36
I know there have been many threads on Retrogrades, but I couldn't find any that would answer my question specifically so... here it is!

Something amazing happened this month: one of my favorite second-hand bookstores bought this HUGE lot of Astrology books, and I was able to find some of the books recommended in the resources thread (translated in Portuguese, of course). While looking for good books, I came across many books on Retrogrades, and thought that having one of them in my collection could come in handy.

However, much to my disappointment, all of the books simply revolved around Past Life issues. I had hoped one of them would talk about the effects of Retrogrades not only in the Natal Chart but also in Progressions, Transits, and in our everyday life.

Nope. I got things like "X retrograde in the 5th house means you didn't give enough love and education to your children in your past life", "Y Rx in the 2th house suggests that you had problems with money and couldn't use your resources wisely" and blah blah blah.

I have no formed opinion on past lives yet, but I confess that analysing what you did in a life you can't remember and can't live again to fix sounds like... erm... mental self-stimulation? I fail to see the use it can have in the present days (specially in the analysis of a chart). Not to mention it always sounds rather 'punitive', and not constructive.

I know that the other possibility is seeing Retrogrades as an accidental debility, but I was wondering if the Retrogrades in Natal Chart have another connotation other than unresolved karmic issues. Does the retrograde motion simply make the planet weaker in the Chart, or does it change the planet's very influence?

And also, do you take them into consideration in Transits and methods of prediction? Do they exert a different kind of influence than when they are Direct?

Thank you!

214red
16-12-2011, 23:49
i have to differ in that i work with past lives with people because the sum of our lives tells me more about what they need to learn in this life, so therefore it helps this life. I dont know about retrogrades and karma very much, but it makes sense, i have one retrograde planet in my 7th house, and yes that has been one of the biggest issues in my past lives.


i do think we think badly about karma, but i think it points more to where we need more experience in, so it could be an area of focus and/or stress....karma makes it feel like punishment.

I do like a few books i found on karmic/past life astrology, Stephen Arroyo is good for spiritual astrology, Judy hall for pastlife/karmic, jan spiller is also good for spiritual and past life

Saturness
17-12-2011, 00:06
i have to differ in that i work with past lives with people because the sum of our lives tells me more about what they need to learn in this life, so therefore it helps this life. I dont know about retrogrades and karma very much, but it makes sense, i have one retrograde planet in my 7th house, and yes that has been one of the biggest issues in my past lives.

[...]

I do like a few books i found on karmic/past life astrology, Stephen Arroyo is good for spiritual astrology, Judy hall for pastlife/karmic, jan spiller is also good for spiritual and past life


I welcome your opinion, since I do not work with Past lives myself. :)

I do think Retrograde planets could present Past Life issues, although in my view if Past Lives really influence our present, they are more prone to appear in the whole the chart as well since the collaborate with the tendencies we are born with (which are shown in a Natal Chart). The influence would not be limited to the Retrograde planets.

I just wish to know if there are other ways of looking at it, since I do not have an opinion yet about Past Lives and Karma and do not work with such concepts. I believe in reaping what you sow (good and bad), but not necessarily in another life. ;) That's why I am looking for a different view on Retrogrades than those presented in all books I have found.

Thank you for sharing your views, and for the book recommendations!

214red
17-12-2011, 00:24
good luck with the retrogrades...

i do wonder why you got that book, me thinks that you might find you are meant to investigate past lives, i wonder if you will get more pointers about it soon...

Saturness
17-12-2011, 02:26
good luck with the retrogrades...

i do wonder why you got that book, me thinks that you might find you are meant to investigate past lives, i wonder if you will get more pointers about it soon...

Thank you. :)

I did not buy the books because I didn't feel they'd be useful in the current stage of my study (I'm still a beginner in Astrology). I also would like to wait until others answer this thread, maybe they have recommendations to make.

I do not discard the possibility of exploring Past Lives in the future, if I find out that the idea resonates with me.

214red
17-12-2011, 04:08
sorry i was being a bit tongue in cheek there...

Minderwiz
17-12-2011, 05:20
There's no need to only associate retrograde planets exclusivel, or even at all with past lives. That's not to say that doing so is wrong - I doubt very much that it can be proved either way.

If you want a non past lives book on retrogrades, from a psychological perspective, Erin Sullivan's Retrograde Planets is a good exposition. She has several case histories as examples and looks at transits by retrograde planets (Firstly Direct, then Retrograde, and finally Direct again) in the resolution of issues.

Using Saturn as an example, there are two basic influence described by Saturn the constructive, educative, but strict and reserved taskmaster, or the fearful, limited, envious, mistrustfol, malcontent. The difference being the extent to which Saturn is well placed and dignified. As an accidental debility, being retrograde will subtract from the former and increase the chances of the latter. However the extent to which it succeeds in that depend on Saturn's other dignities and debilities. An angular Saturn in Aquarius, Capricorn, or Libra will be much the first 'type, even if Rx.

Transiting Saturn is no exception to this. The difference is that Saturn's change to retrograde motion and back may lead to another planet being aspected up to three times. This gives three opportunities for the promise of Saturn to be realised (subject to supportive Directions).

I don't see anything especially psychological, or especially karmic here but it could be e specialty significant.

dadsnook2000
17-12-2011, 12:59
When I was first studying astrology (long, long ago, but no so far away) there was a lady from New York who had a monthly newsletter (no personal computers in those days) called Planet Watch. Eleanor Bach used to pay close attention to planet conjunctions and stations. Permit me to explain.

For inner planets, the planet moves ahead of the Sun in the zodiac, slows and appears to briefly stop. This is called a station. The planet then slides back towards and then past the Sun. At the point when it contacts the Sun, we have a conjunction. The planet continues moving back and away from the Sun before it slows and appears to stop. This is also called a station (or stop point). The planet then moves forward, gathering speed. It again contacts the Sun, a conjunction point. As it moves forward and moves faster, it reaches its original station point before continuing onward in it regular path.

We can apply a little logical thinking about these interesting points in the retrograde cycle. The first station point represents the extent of what that planet can reveal to us or allow us to experience. As the planet turns back we have an opportunity to thing about what we have experienced lately relative to that planet. As it contacts the Sun it is possible that we "see" what it is we have to know or learn in this cycle. As it continues away from the Sun, the planet covers "old ground" so to speak. What are we learning now? Once the planet reaches its furthest station and "stops" behind the always forward moving Sun, we should become aware of what we have had an opportunity to revisit or cover again. Moving forward, we have an opportunity to prepare for a growth experience, an experience that should ocurr when the planet contacts again the Sun. Once we pass the very first station point, we should have become fully aware of our personal growth and new direction in life.

The outer planets generally follow the same routine except that the conjunction point needs to be replaced by the opposition point. The outer planets generally have their station points somewhat near the "trine" aspect --- 120 degrees or such from the Sun. These retrograde arcs last significantly long (read as "months").

There are many ways to view retrogrades. Since I don't bother using signs, debilities and ruler ships, etc., I like to use the station points and conjunction-opposition points. I view the nature of the planet in basic symbolism. Saturn, for example, for many people represents limitations, dreaded responsibility, burdens, sullenness. That is its basic nature. Yet, some people are methodical, careful, conservative, service oriented, and happy to help others. So, we interprete Saturn as the person tends to experience it. Using that understanding as a base line, we look for more-positive aspects and less-positive aspects to judge how Saturn is likely to express itself. When other planets are involved, the nature of those planets impact the base-line use of the Saturn symbolism --- making it more positive or adding to the negative aspects of the planet.

Edgar Cayce, the psychic of Virginia Beach, VA, USA said that Saturn represents those ares where we choose not to grow. Interesting. We can view Saturn or any other planet in many ways. I'm flexible. I see Saturn a bit differently every time I run into him. How I choose to view and use him varies. I'm not sure how or why. Is it experience or an artist useing his senses and freedom and imagination to see things differently that day. As you learn astrology there seems to be fewer rules and more fluidity. Thats the best way I can explain it. The key to understanding this is to keep things simple. Getting there may or may not be simple. Dave

Saturness
19-12-2011, 22:15
If you want a non past lives book on retrogrades, from a psychological perspective, Erin Sullivan's Retrograde Planets is a good exposition. She has several case histories as examples and looks at transits by retrograde planets (Firstly Direct, then Retrograde, and finally Direct again) in the resolution of issues.

Thank you VERY much, Minderwiz! I'll definitely look for this book!
It'd be nice to find more information on how the effects of the Retrograde Station (the moment when a planet appears to stop before going Rx or D) on the chart... though I have no idea for how long a planets appear to remain in this state...


Using Saturn as an example, there are two basic influence described by Saturn the constructive, educative, but strict and reserved taskmaster, or the fearful, limited, envious, mistrustfol, malcontent. The difference being the extent to which Saturn is well placed and dignified. As an accidental debility, being retrograde will subtract from the former and increase the chances of the latter. However the extent to which it succeeds in that depend on Saturn's other dignities and debilities. An angular Saturn in Aquarius, Capricorn, or Libra will be much the first 'type, even if Rx.

Thanks for the example. So, the Rx would be a 'minor' debility... if the planet is already badly placed or badly aspected, it adds to it, bit if the planets has dignities and is in a strong position, it would not influence so much.

I believe that in such cases... when the planet is well-dignified but retrograde... one of the meanings commonly given by authors would apply well: that the expression of the planet becomes more subtle, more introvert. But not necessarily bad.



We can apply a little logical thinking about these interesting points in the retrograde cycle. The first station point represents the extent of what that planet can reveal to us or allow us to experience. As the planet turns back we have an opportunity to thing about what we have experienced lately relative to that planet. As it contacts the Sun it is possible that we "see" what it is we have to know or learn in this cycle. As it continues away from the Sun, the planet covers "old ground" so to speak. What are we learning now? Once the planet reaches its furthest station and "stops" behind the always forward moving Sun, we should become aware of what we have had an opportunity to revisit or cover again. Moving forward, we have an opportunity to prepare for a growth experience, an experience that should ocurr when the planet contacts again the Sun. Once we pass the very first station point, we should have become fully aware of our personal growth and new direction in life.

Hi Dave! That's a very interesting view on the Retrograde cycle, I had never heard of it before! I like the idea of 'revisiting' a past problem, or getting the opportunity to do again/review the lesson. Because it is more empowering than believing you are getting punishment because of a past mistake you can't even recall ("you didn't do A and B right, so now you'll have X and Y difficulties").

Now I only say that because I personally do not work with past lives, but I can see that retrogrades could be useful to those who do...


The outer planets generally follow the same routine except that the conjunction point needs to be replaced by the opposition point. The outer planets generally have their station points somewhat near the "trine" aspect --- 120 degrees or such from the Sun. These retrograde arcs last significantly long (read as "months").

I was not aware of the aspect details involved in a planet going Retrograde. I confess I still have a difficult time trying to 'see' things Astrologically. :) So thank you for this!


Edgar Cayce, the psychic of Virginia Beach, VA, USA said that Saturn represents those ares where we choose not to grow. Interesting. We can view Saturn or any other planet in many ways. I'm flexible. I see Saturn a bit differently every time I run into him. How I choose to view and use him varies. I'm not sure how or why. Is it experience or an artist useing his senses and freedom and imagination to see things differently that day. As you learn astrology there seems to be fewer rules and more fluidity. Thats the best way I can explain it. The key to understanding this is to keep things simple. Getting there may or may not be simple. Dave

Hum... well, there's a lot of prejudice against Saturn, Mars and Pluto, but the truth is that a chart without them is a weak one, with no impulse, with no limitations, with no transcendence. I don't think Saturn is "where we choose not to grow", but the area in which growing really involves breaking the eggshell around us. It's more like "the thorn in our side we choose to ignore until it becomes impossible".

Have you ever read The Death of Ivan Ilyich (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Death_of_Ivan_Ilyich), by Leo Tolstoy? For me, it's a what happens when you ignore your Saturn. Eventually it'll come and force you to deal with it, just like an ignored Mars will eventually explode like a bomb.

Above all, Saturn involves knowing one's limitations and growing in spite of them. We don't like doing that - we prefer to believe ourselves 'fated' or poor victims of our heritage. People's reaction to the Natal Chart ("oh, I have X in the Xth House, opposed to Y in Zth House... I'll never be happy") attests to that. They prefer to believe that their badly-placed Venus is the reason behind all their relationship problems than trying to find a way to love despite that. Venus is a factor, but not a destiny. Saturn makes us painfully aware of our limitation, and painfully aware of how responsible we are for overcoming them to the best of our ability. It gives us conscience of time.