Is the Tarot world still as innovative as it was?

Zephyros

Ok, on one hand, this is not to diss truly innovative deck creators since I know that there are many new decks out there, some of them wonderful; the Holy Light comes to mind as a truly "new" Tarot deck, on a par, in my mind, with the Thoth and RWS. The Haindle is also interesting, as are many others. As a disclaimer I must say that I love RWS based decks, use them, and eagerly await several new titles in the wings.

However, picture the turn to middle of the 20th century. Occult was enjoying a kind renaissance, with the Golden Dawn and other orders actively studying, producing new knowledge and developing the old. People cared enough about the orders to form new ones that contrasted their teachings, something along the lines of "you don't dress funny enough, I'll make an order where people dress up funny according to what I believe!" Many people belonged to them, the Golden Dawn not only revolutionized occult knowledge and Tarot as we see them today, but accepted members of all walks of life, and was more a part of the "mainstream" than ever before or since.

The RWS was published in 1909 and was a revolution in Tarot, it did things that no other deck had done up until that point. It created a new system that would stand the test of time, and, indeed, would become in many peoples' eyes as "the" Tarot deck. The Thoth was finished in 1943, quite a few years later, it is true, but still fitting in that "tarot renaissance" time frame. It too, brought an entire new look and feel to Tarot, different than the RWS, but significant in that it too, created a whole new system of doing things. Both, created in a relatively short timespan, are considered classic decks and prototypes of larger movements.

But is that where it stopped? There are literally thousands of decks available today, but most are RWS derivatives. Many are lovely, but I'm not talking about the quality of work in them, but the fact that when A.E. Waite saw the need for a new deck system, he put his whole lifetime of knowledge into creating a deck that would become a base for innumerable others. When Aleister Crowley saw he didn't like the RWS, he put the whole of his experience into a new system. None of them went into the occult for the express purpose of Tarot, but studied disparate subjects and then incorporated them into their decks. Today it seems that most people content themselves with basing decks on the RWS and calling them "new" but are they really that new? Again, I don't want you to think I'm saying that no RWS derivative is good, but even the most innovative of those base themselves on something pre-existing, and build upon it. As much as the Morgan-Greer is my favorite deck, I can't see anyone creating a deck and saying it is "Morgan-Greer inspired." It just doesn't have that lasting quality the RWS has. Will the Holy Light or Haindl be remembered in fifty years time as "classic" Tarot decks? I hope so, but I can't see that far ahead.

Now, I know, necessity is the mother of invention, and Waite saw a niche that needed to be filled. Perhaps I'm barking up the wrong tree here and now that that niche is filled, there is no use for filling it again. However, no one "needed" television before it was invented, no one imagined the need for a pictorial deck before it was created. But is the Tarot world slightly poorer because of how good Waite's deck is, since, for the mainstream average Joe, it is the quintessential deck, superseding all others. For most deck creators, it is the natual blueprint on which to base new works. The Tarot world's obsession, as it were, with the RWS does a disservice to the Marseilles or the Sola Busca, which if anything could/should really be called "the" Tarot decks, since they existed hundreds of years before the RWS or the Thoth, yet their images are less recognizable to the man on the street than the RWS is. Sure, there are far more decks being published today than during the GD era, but, again, are they really, really "new" decks? It seems sometimes that the Golden Dawn monopolized a tradition that existed centuries before it. Are we in the midst of another Tarot renaissance, or is it something else?

In essence, my question is where are those giants who take a lifetime to study Tarot and then only do they hesitantly attempt to create something truly new? Why is the there no 2011 equivalent to Waite? Why isn't there are "wickedest man in England" today? Has the world changed so much that there will be no more iconic innovations in Tarot, but more of the same?

Now, again, I must stress that I in no way wish to disparage the many talented deck creators on this forum, I'm talking about a wider movement, so please don't take it personally :)
 

Sar

For me is the question more like: Does the tarot world need an inovation/intervention?
 

Zephyros

I think innovation is usually a good thing, but what I'm saying also affects the way people read. Once learning "book meanings" was unheard of, since there were no books. Today there is more of a general consensus as to what cards have what meanings across the board no matter what deck you're using, because of the predominantly RWS-inspired Tarot culture we exist in. I'm just not sure that consensus is a good thing.
 

triple_entendre

In essence, my question is where are those giants who take a lifetime to study Tarot and then only do they hesitantly attempt to create something truly new? Why is the there no 2011 equivalent to Waite? Why isn't there are "wickedest man in England" today? Has the world changed so much that there will be no more iconic innovations in Tarot, but more of the same?
I thought the problem was the opposite, actually: that there are so many more decks being produced now than in the Victorian era, that nobody will say "from now on, all death cards must have a Phoenix!" or "The Tower should be renamed The Deluge!" There are many tiny innovations in quite a few decks, but competition's probably too stiff for anything to be considered iconic. They may not even be competing for the most clarity in spiritual development, but artistry and entertainment. That's not bad, but it sounds to me like that's not what you're looking for, right?

I get the impression that physical tools for spiritual development are going out of fashion as a whole. Nowadays, it's mostly meditations, dreams, very casual if impassioned communities dedicated to learning telekinesis or directly seeing the future in trance, trading books about how fluoride in the water supply stops people from being psychic, channeling messages from Andromeda or the Pleiades, things like that. The wickedest people turned to rock or rap music celebrity, which in itself can capture the hearts and minds of many people for generations. But, tarot, while very pretty, is quaint.

Though, while typing this, I've been wondering about making more Asian-themed tarot decks, not only in the art, but in the structure. Five suits of minor arcana for the five elements, twelve major arcana cards for the animals of the year in Chinese astrology, plus one for the Buddha? That's as far as I've thought it out.
 

RunningWild

In essence, my question is where are those giants who take a lifetime to study Tarot and then only do they hesitantly attempt to create something truly new? Why is the there no 2011 equivalent to Waite? Why isn't there are "wickedest man in England" today? Has the world changed so much that there will be no more iconic innovations in Tarot, but more of the same?



I haven't delved into the modern history of the Tarot too much because there are so many other things for me to focus on, but it occurs to me that new innovations come about when there is a shift (or maybe even an upheaval) in the foundation.

From the invention of the telephone to radio to black & white television to color tvs and all the variety to choose from in today's market, began with a discovery of how sound can travel via wires and radio/air waves. Those ideas were manipulated and tweaked but they all began with a shift in understanding of the most basic of things.

Has anything new been added to the tradition that brought about the Tarot as a spiritual and divinatory tool? Is there a sense that there IS something but that it's just out of reach?
 

GryffinSong

I wonder if many of the innovators start, instead of with tarot, with their own system entirely. There are many very interesting and innovative oracle decks out there that have their own system, independent of any others. I think perhaps that deck designers feel a little constrained by the tarot structure, and feel that perhaps a different approach entirely is more up their alley. I know that there are concepts in the tarot that don't seem to have much to do with my life. I think if I were designing a deck I'd definately think about creating my own structure rather than trying to cram my concepts into that exact format.
 

Zephyros

Has anything new been added to the tradition that brought about the Tarot as a spiritual and divinatory tool? Is there a sense that there IS something but that it's just out of reach?

I can see your point in this. There are only so many ways the Tree of life and astrological attributions can be played around with with 22 Majors, so maybe those innovators of old did all the work that could be done but still, I can't help feeling there are things we don't know we don't know yet. There are always new things to learn, new philosophical alleys to explore.

I wonder if many of the innovators start, instead of with tarot, with their own system entirely. There are many very interesting and innovative oracle decks out there that have their own system, independent of any others. I think perhaps that deck designers feel a little constrained by the tarot structure, and feel that perhaps a different approach entirely is more up their alley. I know that there are concepts in the tarot that don't seem to have much to do with my life. I think if I were designing a deck I'd definately think about creating my own structure rather than trying to cram my concepts into that exact format.

On one hand I have to agree with you, this may be a sign of our times that people don't innovate on old ideas, they create new ones. From the old systems come new and non-traditional ones, and there is no reason why they shouldn't. On the other hand, and although I have nothing against oracle decks, Crowley and Waite saw the advantages of the Tarot traditional system, but innovated within it, so i wouldn't be too hasty to dismiss that, as "old fashioned." Youtube is a development of television, of sorts; one would be hard put to think of a new way of watching video other than, well, video. Other than 3D technology and perhaps beaming images directly to the brain, perhaps video technology has reached its limit, so it may be that Tarot has reached its limit. But that's the thing with innovation, you rarely know what you're missing until its invented, and then you can't live without it.

I thought the problem was the opposite, actually: that there are so many more decks being produced now than in the Victorian era, that nobody will say "from now on, all death cards must have a Phoenix!" or "The Tower should be renamed The Deluge!" There are many tiny innovations in quite a few decks, but competition's probably too stiff for anything to be considered iconic. They may not even be competing for the most clarity in spiritual development, but artistry and entertainment. That's not bad, but it sounds to me like that's not what you're looking for, right?

In a way, that is what I'm looking for. A lifelong master occultist who could come along and throw everything we think we know about Tarot out the door, Like Levi, and Waite, and Crowley, like Etteilla, like Mathers, like any of them. I'm looking for giants :)
 

EoMg

Though, while typing this, I've been wondering about making more Asian-themed tarot decks, not only in the art, but in the structure. Five suits of minor arcana for the five elements, twelve major arcana cards for the animals of the year in Chinese astrology, plus one for the Buddha? That's as far as I've thought it out.

Oh man, I would love a 5 element tarot... the chinese five elements have always resonated more for me than the western 4 element system.
 

Le Fanu

I think tarot designers can't innovate too much otherwise their baby is doomed to become an oracle deck.

In any walk of life there is always the "seminal" text/writer/artist/ creation that all others are indebted too. It's like saying can we expect more books after Shakespeare? Things may exist in their shadow but there is still scope for innovation.

But what I find odd is that people - in general, nobody in particular - insist on a system then read intuitively and there's a kind of blurred line where these two concepts meet. If one reads cards intuitively, how formal a structure do we need to have? Does it matter? We can just override it anyway and do our own thing. Both A.E Waite and Crowley expected people to adhere quite strictly to their system and nobody approaches card-reading like that anymore.

There are many decks which I think have meticulously thought out systems that seem watertight to me from a tarot perspective; the William Blake (very complex I think, but impeccably done and really does establish its own parallel tarot structure and concept), Navigators of the Mystic SEA, the Greenwood. These are - to my mind - very unique and have taken a system and run with it, taken it forward. There are others.

People often want "innovative" and original but also RWS, which is like wanting to break down barriers yet remain familiar. Not easy.
 

triple_entendre

I think tarot designers can't innovate too much otherwise their baby is doomed to become an oracle deck.

Speaking of, I just read today that Doreen Virtue is finally making a tarot deck!

I'd like to chime in with everyone on that thread saying

it's amusing that this is being advertised as the first deck of tarot cards that is "100 percent gentle, safe, and trustworthy"

because, come on, what the fluff--!?

But, I can't fault Dr. Virtue for doing what she loves and finding a way to get paid for it. My mother owned several of her angel oracle decks. I thought the "Messages From The Angels" was horribly ugly but "Healing With the Angels Oracle Cards" was all right. And the latter was a healing deck, so I could understand no negativity. I just don't like single-card draws and blunt instrument interpretation, but the borders and fonts did work well with the Renaissance paintings.

It's easy for me to say "don't buy it if you don't like it." I was never mobbed by whitelighters, the most annoying thing I've had to put up with was my bookstores no longer letting people open packs of tarot cards to see if they like them all before buying (because someone spread a rumor that, after all the meddling with art concepts, art drafts, art re-drafts, border graphics, packaging, and transport, that will be the one thing that irreversibly messes with the cards' energy! I can understand if their clerks don't want to damage the box or the cards by opening it, or even "it's our bookstore and we say you're not allowed to, that's why" but if muddied psychic energy is the reason then just light an incense cone and wave the box over it.) At least they sold tarot cards at all, which, since my town's been starting to look like a de facto theocracy lately, I appreciate some remaining recognition of people having different spiritual paths. But that might also just be because tarot is lucrative.


But maybe this is it, the new wave of tarot! 50% love, 50% light, 100% bowdlerized. Pamela Smith and Frieda Harris would be so proud.