Knights vs Kings

[Baby Owl]

Could someone please explain how and why Crowley chose to use a Knight instead of a King in his deck? Did it have something to do with the Order of the Golden Dawn?

Baby Owl

[Moongold]

I don't know the answer, Babyowl, but it seems better for some reason. The Kings in Tarot are a pretty stodgy lot. Have you noticed how few discussions there are about them, whereas there are reams of discussions about Queens.

The Queens in the Court Card matrix and in Tarot generally seem to be much more powerful.

Just an observation, many of the qualities that are attributed to the King could just as easily belong to women these days, and that sort of makes the Kings non-entities. A Knight now? He can be an adventurer, a lover, someone who goes to the crusades - an adventurer? He has a little more energy, a little more pzazz.

I guess that view does not help very much. :)

[Macavity]

You might find http://www.llewellynjournal.com/article/387 useful.

The relevant part starts with (appropriately?) "the confusion begins" ;)

Macavity

[Baby Owl]

Moongold - I loved your answer. "Stodgy lot" is a good way to describe the kings!

Macavity - thank you! I did an internet search before I posted this question but couldn't find anything after putting in several different keywords.

Baby Owl

[Kurai Yuko]

Hi, Baby Owl :)

Crowley changed because of his personal magic beliefs and doctrine. The same reason why Arthur Waite 'changed' the places of the Strength and the Justice (due to the association of the cards with the Hebrew alphabet).

You see, these 'changes' make no real difference in the structure of Tarot or the readings. So do not worry about them so much ;)

I hope i was helpful!

~Yuko

[Baby Owl]

Thank you, Kurai Yuko!

I was not worried -- just curious!

Baby Owl

[Alobar]

thanks Macavity, that link saved me alot of writing and explained it much better, i'm sure.
but apart from the facts stated in that link, i always think of the
'King' as static, like a modern figure-head monarch. but the 'Knight-King' i see more as the active warrior King, such as Arthur, or Julius Caesar.

Originally posted by Kurai Yuko
You see, these 'changes' make no real difference in the structure of Tarot or the readings. So do not worry about them so much

well, these changes may not affect readings, i wouldn't know.
but they certainly change the structure of the tarot!
in regards to the Qabala, pathworking, even from the perspective of the Fool's journey these changes make a great difference.

[Caileadair]

though I haven't been posting a whole lot I'm really enjoying this study group's posts. :)

BB,
~Cail

[Baby Owl]

I have been reading parts of the Book of Thoth and came across Crowley's explanation:

"The Qabalists, devising the Tarot, then proceeded to make pictures of these extremely abstract ideas of Father, Mother, Son, and Daughter, and they called them King, Queen, Prince and Princess. It is confusing, but they were also called Knight, Queen, King and Princess. Sometimes, too, the Prince and Princess are called 'Emperor' and 'Empress.'

The reason for this confusion is connected with the doctrine of the Fool of the Tarot, the legendary Wanderer, who wins the King's daughter, a legend which is connected with the old and exceedingly wise plan of choosing the successor to a king by his ability to win the princess from all competitors. (Frazer's Golden Bough is the authority on this subject.)

It has been thought better, for the present pack, to adopt the term "Knight," "Queen," "Prince" and "Princess," to represent the series Father, Mother, Son, Daughter, because the doctrine involved, which is extraordinarily complex and difficult, demands it. The Father is "Knight" because he is represented as riding on a horse."

I'm still reading...

Baby Owl

[Moongold]

WOW seems a pretty casual way of devising archetypes. Father and Mother could be seen as archetypes, I guess? Let's face it, they're a common and pretty profound experience.

So they could be seen as archetypes. Hmmmmmmmm !

[lunaperse]

i am brand new to thoth but the first time i saw it i thought Wow! dynamic! energetic! sexy! visceral! overwhelming! power! (and thenbecause everyone told me to read RWS to start i put it back with an ok later........) to me though those attriubtes scream KNIGHT young, active, powerful etc not king still powerful but somehow matured, older, sitting back watching and taking things from a higher view

of cours eim sure this hasnt much to do with the Historical Reaosns for the change but it does reflect a lot rmoe than you might think on the peronsalities of the decks
well to me
at any rate

manda

[Voron]

"The Father is "Knight" because he is represented as riding on a horse."

It is important to note that in comparing associations between Toth-based decks and Rider-Waite based decks, The Thoth Princes have the same associations/meanings as the Rider Kings. In essence, on may think of the King/Prince as the consort to the Queen.

[Dean]

I always see Knights has the Kings in the Thoth.