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Minderwiz
18-01-2012, 21:54
It's time for another round of Horary questions but this time I'm adding a twist for those who want it.

I'm going to use this as a 'How to' thread to help some of you who wish to learn horary. So as well as asking your question you have the opportunity to participate in answering your own question or indeed other people's questions.

No prior knowledge is required and your contribution can be simply asking the question through to casting your own chart, identifying the significators and even attempting your own reading - how far you choose to go is up to you.

Questions should be treated the same as in previous threads - that is it should be on something that is important to you at the moment (no matter how trivial it might seem in the great scheme of things). That is the key element - it has importance to you now.

Think carefully about how you phrase the question, make sure that it's clear and is worded to reflect your major concern. It's not just you that has to understand what you mean - I and others who wish to contribute need to do so too, if I'm we're goint to give an answer that is helpful. For those of you who are Tarot readers, it's exactly the same issue as reading for someone else's question - you need to be sure that you understanding of the question and their's is the same.

For those of you who wish to try reading in whole or part I'm going to give a few tips in the following posts, so that we will be ready to kick off early next week - hopefully Monday, or even before if I've got the first few posts sorted and people have questions to ask.

You will also need to cast your own chart if you want to try some part of the reading so the basic rules for this are. Wait till you're sure you've got the question just right and it accurately reflects what you want to ask. It's best to take your time at this stage, as quite often you might thing of something after your initial stab at wording the question, or realise that other factors actually lie behind your question and those are more important as the subject of the question. When you are sure it's as you want it make a note of the time and date.

Then:

If you don't have any astrological software go to astro.com and use the facilities there to generate a horoscope for that time and date and the place where you were when the question was finalised. That is likely to be your home, so usue your home town as the place for the horoscope. Unless you happen to be out of town at the time you finalised your question, your home town will be the place for all your horary readings.

Astro.com doesn't really allow you to customise your chart. In most respects that's not a major problem but if you intend to repeat the process with other questions. either in this thread or on your own and get into horary (or Astrology in general) I would suggest that you download one of the free Astrology programs and install it on your computer.

There are two that are well worth considering - Morinus and Riyal. I'm going to be using Morinus as the basic program for this thread but Riyal is well worth it if you are interested in Dave's methods relating to Solar Returns, as he has had a significant input into its development.

I'm going to start a separate thread on these free programs and I'm hoping that Dave will do the input for Riyal. Remember that both of these being freeware do not have the atlases and daylight saving data that the proprietary software has but as it's easy to look up the longitude and latitude for your home town (using Google Earth or Google Maps) and as you know whether you're using Daylight Saving time or not, these lend themselves to Horary. Once you have these details and your offset from GMT you have no further need tio look up any further information, unless you also want to use them for natal charts of friends and relatives.

In the next few posts I'll lay out the procedures that you will need to apply once you have settled your question and cast your chart.

inanna_tarot
19-01-2012, 01:05
:D

Really excited :D

SilentBreeze
19-01-2012, 02:08
I'm excited too...I started learning astrology a bit, and it would be great to have the extra resource. Are you going to be posting the How to's in this thread?

Ronia
19-01-2012, 04:27
I have a question: once I cast a chart and on Astro.com it was saying the |Moon was void of course while you said she was not. I'm glad I posted the chart here ignoring the website but how do we know for sure if the chart is OK at all considering the Moon's movement? If Astro.com says it's void of course?

Minderwiz
19-01-2012, 05:44
I have a question: once I cast a chart and on Astro.com it was saying the |Moon was void of course while you said she was not. I'm glad I posted the chart here ignoring the website but how do we know for sure if the chart is OK at all considering the Moon's movement? If Astro.com says it's void of course?

Because there is more than one definition of what 'void of course' means

The usual answer is that it's a situation where the Moon makes no further major aspect before it changes sign.

William Lilly defined it slightly differently - he would allow situations where the Moon was applying to a major Aspect which would be perfected early in the new sign. Thus Moon at say 28 degrees Libra applying to Jupiter at say 1 degree Pisces is an applying Trine and Lilly would say that the Moon is not void of course. The aspect will be perfected at 1 degree Scorpio within a few hours.

I use Lilly's definition because an aspect is being formed and will be perfected so there is a clear 'course' of the Moon but Lilly is not universally accepted by any means. I think this is one of those situations where, in Lilly's words, art tempers the science.

Minderwiz
19-01-2012, 05:46
I'm excited too...I started learning astrology a bit, and it would be great to have the extra resource. Are you going to be posting the How to's in this thread?

As far as possible yes I'll be giving the How to's but you will need the freebie Morinus to get the most out of it See the accompanying thread on free software

SilentBreeze
19-01-2012, 06:49
As far as possible yes I'll be giving the How to's but you will need the freebie Morinus to get the most out of it See the accompanying thread on free software

I got the software, so I'm ready to learn :)

Minderwiz
19-01-2012, 07:43
I got the software, so I'm ready to learn :)

Great!!

I shall start posting the 'How to's' in this thread beginning if possible but it might get into Friday as tomorrow we have a friend from the US stopping with us. I wanted to at least get the thread set up and a few posts about the software so that people could have a play with it and get reasonable familiar with creating a chart;

Nytebugg
19-01-2012, 10:24
I was thinking about this sort of thing today because I have been struggling to learn horary. I do better learning from/with others than I do on my own with books and such. I might have to use just astro charts because I am on mac. I had scrolled past the software thread and saw the one is available in a mac version. Maybe that is what i'll need. I'll go check it out.
although I do have an ancient dell that i could use if I have to.

Saturness
19-01-2012, 10:53
Wow, that so exciting! :D

I will see if I can find any good free Astrology software for Mac! :)

Thank you for starting this, Minderwiz!

SilentBreeze
19-01-2012, 13:47
Wow, that so exciting! :D

I will see if I can find any good free Astrology software for Mac! :)

Thank you for starting this, Minderwiz!

I just used crossover, and I'm pretty happy with how it runs. The mac programs I found weren't that great.

kalliope
19-01-2012, 14:43
Wow, that so exciting! :D

I will see if I can find any good free Astrology software for Mac! :)

Thank you for starting this, Minderwiz!

Marina and SilentBreeze, check out the new "free astrology software" thread. I've been running Morinus on my Mac via Crossover as I mention there, but Minderwiz just pointed out that there is a Mac version of the standard (non-traditional) program. I hope you'll stop by the thread if you try it out and have success with it. Ironically, I'm having much more trouble getting the Mac version to run than I did finding a way to run the Windows versions!

Minderwiz
19-01-2012, 21:26
Firstly two key terms.

The person asking the question is known as the 'Querent' and the subject of the question is known as the 'Quesited' . Your very first task when the querent asks their question is to decide whether the quesited is an acceptable subject for horary. This might seem rather churlish, having asked them to think long and hard about their question but there are some things that you should not attempt to answer and some times that you need to negotiate a change in the question with the querent.

Things that are not acceptable

Any question that asks you to reveal the mind of God or the fundamental purpose of life, or even the existence or not of the deity. You are not authorised to speak for God, nor are you able to read the divine purpose from a horary chart or indeed any chart, unless God chooses to reveal herself through it. So if the question is 'Does God intend me to be a missionary to Alabama?' You don't accept the question but you do try to negotiate a change - see below.

Any question that involves the possible answer never, such as 'Will I ever get married?' or 'Will I ever find my missing arring?' Both questions allow Yes or No answers but the 'No' answer entails that the quesited will never happen. Imagine the headline 'Astrikiger told me I would never marry', says bride or even worse the psychological pain of being told that you will never marry, even though that is your strong desire. Horary deals with the here and now - the word Horary comes from the Greek word that is the basis of our word 'hour' Any Horary answer is transient - the planets move on and the chart changes. So the answer is also transient - it is for the current situation and not for eternity. Again seek to modify the question to a reasonable time period - the next few days, weeks or months as seem appropriate. A maximum of two years is a good rule of thumb for fairly long term questions such as 'Will someone buy my house, now it's up for sale?'

Any question the answer to which is in the full control of the querent, such as 'Will I read Pride and Prejudice during the next month?' Clearly the querent can choose to read it or not and doesn't need a horary question for that. Indeed, sometimes these are asked as trick quesitons to prove that the Astrologer is wrong - the indications in the chart are good but the querent chooses deliberately to thwart the Astrologer. However make sure to check that the question is not really concerned with something else. If the question were asked by a visually impaired person who cannot read a book but is going to have corrective surgery in the next week or so. then the real question is 'Will the operation be a success?' and being able to read Pride and Prejudice is the criterion of being a success.

Any question that is idle speculation - that is the querent has no real interest in the outcome. These may require a bit of detective work and discussion with the querent For example will Tom in Marketing marry Harriet in Accounts, may simply be idle speculation by Richard in Sales and was dreamt up during a morning when his workload was low and he was bored. He doesn't really care and in such circumstances the Cosmos might not care to give him anything but a random answer. However if Richard is desperately in love with Harriet and is thinking of inviting her out for a date, he has an interest and the question is valid. The same goes with a question such as 'Will Prancer win the 3:30 race at Haydock?' it might be idle speculation or the querent might have £300 riding on the outcome.

Things to modify

All modifications should be discussed with the client but the key ones are

Mind of God questions should be modified to something like - 'Have I the talent to be a good missionary to Alabama?'

'Never' questions - agree a time frame, preferably of months rather than years or even shorter if the situation allows it.

Any question that is vague, confused or ambiguous. It's important that the question is understood by you in the same way as it is understood by the querent, so you need to check this through, especially if you realise that one or more words in the question can have different meanings. The question 'Will I get a new job next month?' seems fairly unambiguous but what does the client mean by 'new job' - will a sideways move in the employer's organisation count as a 'new job'? If the querent has been desperately trying to find a job with a new employer this would not be what they meant when they asked the question. The question also implies that they are actively seeking a new job but it's worth checking on that - some people such as high flying executives and football club managers get head hunted but most of us have to actively apply for a new job. So is the question idle speculation, is it seriously intended but the querent is not actually doing anything to secure the outcome or are they actively seeking a new job? All of these will effect the way that you read the chart.

YDM42
20-01-2012, 00:21
I hope this question is answered, but what do you mean by casting a chart on astro.com, - go to page, put in your birth information then select which chart or which option to get a chart?

Minderwiz
20-01-2012, 01:14
I hope this question is answered, but what do you mean by casting a chart on astro.com, - go to page, put in your birth information then select which chart or which option to get a chart?

Yes, exactly as if you were doing your natal chart, except that you will enter the date and time of your question and use the location where you were when you decided on your question. This will usually be your home town and it'e almost certain that astro.com has its coordinates.

It's rather like doing a chart for a new born baby, except that the 'new born' is your question :)

SilentBreeze
20-01-2012, 01:24
So if the question I got asked is When will I find a job? then that would be an unacceptable question because it could turn out that it could be never. Or is that question still okay because I'm just looking for a time frame?

Minderwiz
20-01-2012, 01:44
You've accepted the question (modified if necessary) and you're ready to proceed. The next step is to do the chart, using astro.com or Morinus (or your own software). The date and time of the question are the date and time when the question was finally settled and you understand the finished question. If you've had to discuss the question with the querent and sort out any modifications, it's the point where those modifications are agreed and you are satisfied that you understand the finished question. Do not cast the chart before that point, as it may then refer to a question which has since changed or which you didn't fully understand. That means that it is not the date and time when the querent first asked the question, even if they've included that data in their email or post. If your're discussing the question live with the querent, via phone or in person it's still the time when you understood the question.

When you cast the chart you have to enter a location for the chart, just as you have to do with a natal chart. The usual entry here is the place where you were when the question was finalised and understood by you. If you and the querent were physically in the same place at that time - you were doing a live consultation, then that's the end of the matter. However if the querent is somewhere else you might wonder if you should use their location or yours. The answer is ALWAYS that it is the time and place where the Astrologer understands the question - it is your location. Lee Lehman says that if you are curious about the querent's state of mind when they asked the question then you can cast a chart relating to that, using their time and place but the horary proper is when you understand the question and your location at that time.

The only teensy exception to this might be if you suggest a modification to the question (so that you understand it and it avoids any of the pitfalls over acceptance) and they then agree through an email or phone call where the date and time is clear. In this case you understood the question but you are really asking the querent to confirm that is what they want to ask. Use this very sparingly. I will still wait for the confirmation.

Using Aeclectic for timing is a bad idea anyway as after an hour the time posted is quoted in hours, and there's no minutes for you to work out the exact time of the post.

OK we have our chart the next question is:

Is this chart valid for this question?

Minderwiz
20-01-2012, 01:52
So if the question I got asked is When will I find a job? then that would be an unacceptable question because it could turn out that it could be never. Or is that question still okay because I'm just looking for a time frame?

If this question were asked you should settle a time frame with the querent. If it's your own question you should put a time limit on it. I would usually suggest one month up to three months for such a question' though you need to exercise some judgement here. Take into account the current economic circumstances and the querent's qualifications. Some people will walk into a job, even in a recession others may find that a recession closes them out of the job market to a large extent. In such a case you go ahead with the reading but you would want a far stronger chart for person #2 than person #1, before you answer 'yes' though you might qualify a 'yes' by adding some rider, such as the chances are not high but you could well get one during this period. With a strong chart you will say 'yes' it's very likely.

We'll deal with strong charts later in the thread. The important thing to ask yourself is what is the default outcome?' in a boom it's the querent will very likely get a job and you will need a very weak chart to say 'No'. In a recession it's the other way round - you only say yes, if the chart is very convincing.

Incidentally the above indicates a problem that the Horary Astrologer often has to deal with. There is a great pleasure in telling the querent good news, and we want things to work out for them. It's easy then to add a rosy gloss to the chart, so as not to disappoint them. However if the chart is weak we may have to suggest that the querents hopes are not really as strong as they would wish. This is sometimes seen as a 'bad' way to counsel people. However in Horary our principle job initially is not to counsel but to answer the question. Moreover, querent's are not stupid. If the job market is bad for their skill, then they will be very suspicious of an answer that says 'Of course you will'. It leads to them not trusting you. So you only say 'Yes' if the chart is convincing. If you tell them the chart is weak and not to expect too much, though nicely put you may well find that that is what they were expecting and they then place more weight on your judgement in future questions. Do it kindly but don't build their hopes up on the basis of a mediocre chart.

inanna_tarot
20-01-2012, 06:42
When should you do a horary chart about your own questions?

This is something I consider a lot, as there are a few questions I have that I would enjoy a horary answer about (or at least the practice of using horary and astrology!) but I sometimes feel that I don't 'feel' the question enough for it to be valid. I feel sometimes my concerns are too fleeting (although important) to cast a chart, thinking that it would be invalid or not heart-felt enough to the astrological standard to get a reply.

Would you say the need to ask a question/need the answer is the same as when you are consulting the tarot cards? Or does it have to be a real mind-busting question that you are really incredibly desperate to get answers about?

Nytebugg
20-01-2012, 07:30
will we be creating individual threads for this or will it be one thread?


on the subject for questions lets say you have a romance one. Would a viable question be "will I have a serious relationship in the next 6 months" or does it need to be more specific to a person such as "will I have a serious relationship with Joe in the next 6 months"? or are both types questions valid?

Minderwiz
20-01-2012, 08:22
When should you do a horary chart about your own questions?

This is something I consider a lot, as there are a few questions I have that I would enjoy a horary answer about (or at least the practice of using horary and astrology!) but I sometimes feel that I don't 'feel' the question enough for it to be valid. I feel sometimes my concerns are too fleeting (although important) to cast a chart, thinking that it would be invalid or not heart-felt enough to the astrological standard to get a reply.

Would you say the need to ask a question/need the answer is the same as when you are consulting the tarot cards? Or does it have to be a real mind-busting question that you are really incredibly desperate to get answers about?

The short answer is when you feel the need to do a chart (and that also supplies the time and date). If you don't see a need then you won't do a horary.

The longer answer really depends on you - some people cast their own horaries quite frequently - daily in some cases. I don't do horaries on my own questions very frequently maybe every few months and usually for something I see as quite pressing. Strangely I cast them for my wife more frequently. If you think a chart will be helpful, no matter how fleeting the issue might be then cast one. Mine tend to be about lost items because I have a terrible memory. :)

Minderwiz
20-01-2012, 08:30
will we be creating individual threads for this or will it be one thread?


on the subject for questions lets say you have a romance one. Would a viable question be "will I have a serious relationship in the next 6 months" or does it need to be more specific to a person such as "will I have a serious relationship with Joe in the next 6 months"? or are both types questions valid?

I hadn't really thought that one through but from the interest already it might be better to do separate threads rather than people having to wait their turn. The question might lose relevance in some instances if the delay is excessive. The downside is that there might be a number of threads going at any one time and the learning process may become fragmentary. So I'd like to keep this thread going so that I can post on issues that effect more than one person or are important issues in horary. It means I might have to put links into the threads but whilst there's interst I don't want to let it just evaporate.

I think I'd like to take the first one or two here, simply to provide some guidance for everyone else in terms of procedures. Thereafter people can have a go at their own and I'll comment. I also hope people will comment on each other's threads/horaries because that will also help in the learning process.

Tomorrow I'll post the considerations before judgement and then we can get into those initial horaries. So perhaps someone can ask a question at that point and I'll do a worked example explaining the reasoning behind each step. Then someone else can post their own reading in this thread and we'll talk it through. Thereafter if people feel confident enough to launch their own thread that will be fine. For those who are not, this thread will still remain active.

Nytebugg
20-01-2012, 10:13
Sounds great. I am really looking forward to this.

kalliope
20-01-2012, 10:38
I agree that separate threads for each person's question is best. But I think we should start the thread title the same so they are easily recognized and found. Something like

HDIY: blah blah question
or
Horary DIY: blah blah question

What do you think?

Minderwiz
20-01-2012, 17:58
I agree that separate threads for each person's question is best. But I think we should start the thread title the same so they are easily recognized and found. Something like

HDIY: blah blah question
or
Horary DIY: blah blah question

What do you think?

Yes that's a good idea. I'd go for the second, simply because a search for Horary DIY would bring up the main thread as well as the associated ones.

Minderwiz
20-01-2012, 20:55
We have the chart but is it a valid chart for the question? The Considerations are supposed to help determine whether the chart is fit to be judged. However some Astrologers, such as John Frawley argue that they are a fiction. used in the past to enable Astrologers to dodge awkward questions asked by their employers (usually Kings or rich nobles).

Now deciding whether a chart is fit to be judged is actually important in all areas of Astrology - it might be argued that natal charts are obviously fit to be judged because we have the native as evidence that the nativity occurred. However a quick scan through the Astrology threads will show that this is not the case - there are instances where some have judged charts for which there is no known birth time, or have judged charts based on birth times that prove to be in error, or even birth dates that are in error. An Astrologer should always do the best they can to verify the data they have and to qualify any judgements, if some vital data is missing, indeed not to make judgements on pure assumption or supposition.

In the case of a Horary chart, it might well be argued that we know it's genuine because, as the Astrologer, we cast it for the moment we understood the question. I started off using them and as time has gone on, I've relaxed on some of them. However they are 'considerations' they do not, of themselves, prevent the Astrologer making a judgement. So I'll list them, as Lilly gives them and add my comments in terms of my own experience.

Lilly's Considerations

1. There should be agreement between the Lord of the Ascendant and the Lord of the Hour (the planetary hour lord when the chart was cast) I'm not sure that you can get the planetary hour lord from Astro.com, for Morinus, go to 'Tables' and from the drop down menu select 'planetary hours' you can then easily find the planetary hour ruler for the time of your chart. According to Lilly they should be of the same triplicity. Now Lilly's examples are ones using the ptolemaic triplicities - which Morinus gives you, if you've set your options as described in the Free AStrology Software thread

http://www.tarotforum.net/forumdisplay.php?f=26

Up to know I've enlarged this consideration to include planets who have sign rulerships in the same triplicity as the sign on the Ascendant - e.g. with Gemini on the Ascendant, I'd allow a Saturn hour or a Venus hour as they rule Aquarius and Libra respectively. I'd also allow exaltation rulers - e.g. with Pisces rising, I'd allow Mars (Scorpio). Jupiter (Pisces) and Venus (exaltation Pisces) but to be honest I'm coming to the view that this consideration is really unncessary and it's best simply to ask 'does the chart adequately describe the situation?' So I won't be using it in this thread.

2. Early or Late degrees of a sign rising. That is 0-3 and 27-30. Lilly says don't venture judgement for the first unless it's a young querent or their body corporature matches the description of the rising sign, i.e. if Cancer is rising their body type is Cancer. For late degrees he says it's OK if the chart is cast for a precise time relevant to the question, e.g. I last saw my pet cat at 3:52 pm and it's not come home for it's tea, is it OK? If 3:52 produces the late degree rising, he says it's still safe to read the chart. Frawley reckons that this consideration came into use because of difficulties telling the time accurately and a change of sign produces a different significator for the querent (and therefore very likely a different answer), Accurate time pieces mean that this is no longer a problem. (unless of course you have 3 different time pieces all giving different times:) ) It's worth considering but it doesn't stlop me doing a reading, unless it's coupled with another consdieration I use. There's also a line that early degrees mean it's too soon to know the outcome and late degrees means there's no action that the querent can take to affect the outcome. These make some sense and I do tend to use them as qualifications.

3. When the the Moon is Void of Course. For Lilly this means that the Moon will not apply to a major aspect before it changes sign or if it does the major aspect will not be completed in the early degrees of the next sign. Lilly also allows a Void of Course Moon to be used if it's in Cancer, Taurus, Sagittarius or Pisces. The first two are its rulership and its exaltation, the latter two are the signs of Jupiter the greater benefic (which is exalted in Cancer). I use the VOC Moon as a consideration and tend not to make a judgement for those charts. The key to this is that it's the Moon that mediates between heaven and Earth and no manor aspect = no heavenly influence.

4. Moon or Ascendant in the Via Combusta. The Via Combusta is a stretch of the zodiac from 15 Libra to 15 Scorpio and literally means burnt path. I don't use these considerations at all.

5. The Seventh cusp afflicted or Lord 7 retrograde or otherwise debilitated, Saturn in the Seventh or First (unless Saturn is a significator in the question), Lord of the Ascendant combust. The argument for this is two fold. Firstly the seventh house is the House of the Astrologer doing the chart, so if it's afflicted or Saturn is in it, his or her judgement will be impaired - they will get the answer wrong or miss something important. The argument for affliction to the Ascendant is that it shows a weak querent who might not be able to take the necessary action to secure the desired outcome. I don't use either of these. My reasoning is if I refused to do a chart on the grounds I'd probably get it wrong, I'd not do any charts at all! Also if the querent is weak then this is actually necessary information for answering their question. Id' rather be told that there's little I can do to affect the outcome than the Astrologer say, I'm not prepared to make a judgement - what does that mean? She's seen nasty things happening to me and is to shocked to tell me?? A fertile imagination doesn't react kindly to being told 'no judgement' without giving good reasons.

OK those are the considerations - the Void of Coiurse Moon is the only one I tend to use as a definite deferral of judgement, and I'll say so. The others lead to a qualification of the answer or are ignored - e.g. the ones relating to Via Combusta or agreement of triplicity.

Minderwiz
20-01-2012, 22:19
Right we're nearly ready for the first Question - a bit earlier than I expected So just a comment on the significators and houses and we'll take our first customer!

Significators

The querent gets the first House in virtually all Horaries. So if Cancer is ascending, the querent gets the Moon as his or her significator. If it's Pisces or Sagittarius their significator is Jupiter, If it's Aquarius or Capricorn their significator is Saturn, and so on. The only eceptions to this are:

When the querent is a 'messanger' from someone else who is the real author of the question. For example if the Finance Director of a company turns up and says, 'The CEO wants to know if the company will make a profit next year'. In this case it's the CEO who gets the first house and the Finance Director gets nothing (except to the question requires you to look at Comapany Finances in which case the Finance Director is 8th House).

The other exception is where an interested pary asks a question about another person without their knowledge or permission. For example a woman asks you if her son will marry his current girlfriend. The woman is not part of the question and is not directly involved. The son gets the first and his girlfriend the Seventh. The mother will be the tenth house ruler, if (and only if) there is a need to consider his mother, for example the chart shows that the intervention of a third party is necessary and this third party is his mother. Don't try to 'turn the chart' or use derived houses for these questions - that is don't use the fifth house for the son and the eleventh for his girlfirend. Yes the fifth is the house of children but it's so much easier to use first and seventh in the normal way and apply the rules in the normal way. You risk getting confused using the fifth because then you have to keep thinking of what each house is signifying and what the relationship of one person to another really is.

That's the easy bit. The hard bit is deciding which house deals with the quesited, so that you can identify it's significator. For many horaries it's still quite easy:

Houses
Second = personal income and resources
Third = siblings, neighbours and short journeys
Fourth = Father, family as a whole, land buildings and buried treasure
Fifth = children and fun
Sixth = disease, subordinates, small pets
Seventh = partner, boy friend/girl friend, enemy, they buyer of what you are selling, or the seller of what you are buying, the other party in a law case, the thief if you've been robbed
Eight = partner's money and resources, taxes, the company's money. your opponents second in a duel - these days your opponents lawyer in a court case. It rarelly means death unless the question actually is about that.
Ninth = Travel, higher eduction, philosophy, dreams, prophesy,
Tenth = employer, job, mother, the government as a whole, the President or Prime Minister
Eleventh = friends, the government agencies, the resources of your employer or prospective employer (useful if you want to know if they can afford to pay you what you want) and your hopes and expecations
Twelfth = large animals, secret enemies, prisons, hospitals, friend's resources - e.g. a question such as 'Can my friend lend me £100?'

I find most of the questions I get are 7th House relationships, followed by questions on jobs or buying/renting houses and questions on travel or eduction. I've never had a question that was twelfth house,

The first House itself can be used for overall Health, the best place to live, things that happen in my house (as it contains me), ships and their voyages - when I'm a passenger or have an investment in their cargo..

For a more detailed list see Skyscript

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/

The side bar on the left has the houses, simply click on each number to see what the house is associated with or use

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/temples/cont.html

for a shortened version of Deb Houlding's book.

I will expand on houses as we go through the charts, so more comments will follow as and when they are needed. If you are not sure for your own horary then please, please post in this thread for help.

Finally, I use Regiomontanus Houses, as did Lilly. There is no reason whatsoever why a different house system cannot be used, it's just that I like the system but personal preference does not mean it's superior, it isn't. You will find traditional horary readers who use Porphry, Whole Signs, Alcabitus and later ones who use Placidus. Lilly might well have adopted Placidus if the tables had been widely available in his time.

If you are using Morinus, you can change the house system using 'Options' and then 'houses' and you can swap back and foward to see the instant effect of changing the house system.

OK first question please - so that I can take you through a reading. It's better to see horary in action than to try and absorb all the method first.

Nytebugg
21-01-2012, 06:01
I have a question to ask. I am willing to be the first one if you like.
I'm going to post my question below because I wasn't sure if I should start a separate thread or if it would be better to take the example question then have it read in this thread for teaching purposes.

My question is: will I have have a meaningful romantic relationship in the next 6 months? By meaningful I mean something that isn't a casual fling but it doesn't have to be marriage either. A mutually interested type romantic relationship.

Minderwiz
21-01-2012, 06:30
My question is: will I have have a meaningful romantic relationship in the next 6 months? By meaningful I mean something that isn't a casual fling but it doesn't have to be marriage either. A mutually interested type romantic relationship.

Thank you Nytebugg. That's a good question. Could you please tell me if you have anybody particular in mind and if you are in any relationship at the moment. By that I really want to distinguish whether there is currently an embryonic relationship, which you are thinking/hoping to develop, or whether there is no one at all at the moment.

Nytebugg
21-01-2012, 07:26
I'm trying to be open at this point. I'm not currently seeing anyone. There is someone I am interested in but so far we've only been friends. Other than him there is no one even remotely on the horizon.

Minderwiz
21-01-2012, 07:54
Thanks again. Finally would you see setting up home together as the necessary conclusion? Or would your happy with living apart but the relationship lasting a couple of years or more. That is quite a bit more than a 'fling but not a long term live-in relationship? That is how high do I set the bar of success?

Nytebugg
21-01-2012, 08:08
I'm not getting any younger so in all honesty I'd like something that would lead to setting up home together at some point. it wouldn't have to be within the 6 month time period but further down the road in a year or two.

Minderwiz
22-01-2012, 00:33
I'm going to use the next posts to show how a reading will be carried out. Most tools and techniques will be on display. So if you intend to have a go at your own you can use this as something of a template.

The Question

Will I have have a meaningful romantic relationship in the next 6 months? By meaningful I mean something that isn't a casual fling but it doesn't have to be marriage either. A mutually interested type romantic relationship.

The question was clarified to show that there is no person directly concerned, though a possible friend might be involved and the six months is to establish a relationship but not necessarily to include setting up home together.


The Chart

The chart was cast for 9:14 am, Saturday 21 January and for my home location of Standish, Lancashire, UK. This was the time and place when I read Nytebugg's post above and confirmed my understanding of the question. Note that I could not have used Nytebugg's own location because Aeclectic does not give accurate times after the first hour.

The chart has 25 degrees Aquarius rising, So Saturn rules the Ascendant and signifies Nytebugg.

The question relates to a romantic relationship and here two possible houses might be relevant. The first is the fifth House, which is often referred to as ruling romance. The other is the Seventh house of partnerships and relationships. There are arguments for both - but I tend to agree with John Frawley, that questions such as this are primarily concerned with a relationship to another person and are therefore seventh house - the idea of Roimance and Romance as a generalised pursuit is fifth house.

The Descendant is in Leo, so the Sun rules the Seventh cusp. This makes the significators of the possible ‘partner’ the Sun. The next steps are to examine each of the significators in turn, see what their strengths and weaknesses are and what their interests are. Most importantly we need to see if there’s any connection between the two of them and how strong those connections are.

Assessing the querent’s significators

Saturn is positioned in the Seventh House, which is a good start. Remember here Saturn is a significators in the question so it’s position in the seventh is not a consideration before judgement. Indeed it shows that Nytebugg’s interest in a relationship is genuine. Saturn is not in the Sun’s sign of Leo, it’s actually in the last degree of Libra not far from the eighth house cusp. So how do we go about describing Nytebugg and her situation. To do this we make use of two concepts, essential dignity and [accidental dignity[/i] The former says something about the querent and her inherent strengths and weaknesses in terms of the question. The latter gives us some indication of the situation she finds herself in, in relation to the question.

Essential dignity

Essential dignity comes from the significator’s sign placement, no matter which house it is. Saturn is in Libra, so what does that tell us? We look at the essential dignities in Libra, to find out about Saturn’s strengths or weaknesses. There are five of these. Rulership, Exaltation, Triplicity, Terms and Face (decan) in descending order of strength. As a rule of thumb for quick assessment, we score 5 for rulership, 4 for exaltation, 3 for Triplicity, 2 for terms and 1 for face. These are rough and ready guidelines but they are in widespread use, so software such as Morinus will give them to you. For a quick look at what each planet’s essential dignities are (assuming the chart is loaded) we can go to ‘Tables’ select ‘Almutens’ and then select ‘points’, or press F2

You will find Saturn as the first planet in the list and looking along the row, you will see that the first column is Saturn itself and it has ‘4+3’ in it. This tells us that Saturn is both the exaltation ruler and the Triplicity ruler of Libra. Looking further along we will see that Venus scores 5 (it’s the ruler of Libra), Mars scores 2 (Saturn is in the Terms of Mars) and Jupiter scores 1 (Saturn is in the Face of Jupiter). These latter two are also shown on the chart wheel if you look for Libra and Saturn's place at the end of the sign.

So Saturn scores highly in Libra. It has a total of 7 points, which shows that Nytebugg has considerable power in relation to the question – if she gets the opportunity (see accidental dignities below). Power here could come from looks, from personality, etc but she’s certainly not a weak candidate for a relationship at all. Frawley also uses the dignities to give some impression of what the querent is interested in. In this case Venus gives the major concern, followed by Saturn, and then possibly Mars and Jupiter. Venus is both a natural symbol of romance, and in tis chart has some involvement in the seventh (where Venus is interecepted) and in the Second which has Taurus on the cusp. So we have some link to the seventh but also possibly there might be some feelings about her own resources. Saturn is her own significators, so there’s some self interest here – not in a negative way but a concern for her own future. Saturn is at the end of Libra, so it’s condition is due to change – the future offers some challenge and possibly some concern.

Accidental dignity

Saturn’s accidental dignity comes from its position in the chart, relative to the Sun and from aspects it receives. A full list of the accidental dignities can be found here:

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/dig5.html

Saturn is in the seventh but as it’s a couple of signs from the Descendant, I would not really treat it as fully angular. Saturn is also Direct in motion – which is an accidental dignity, which Lilly scored at 4. So far Saturn also looks to be in a good situation, indicating that Nytebugg may well find herself in a situation where she can easily influence the outcome.

Saturn’s speed can be obtained from Morinus using the F11 key, or’ Tables, Speeds’. This shows that Saturn’s speed is just under 2 minutes per day, which is slow for Saturn – so quick action might not be possible, if required. This is the first debility we’ve met. However the rest is quite good. Saturn is Oriental – meaning that it is between the conjunction with the Sun and it’s opposition to the Sun. Lilly scores this as an accidental dignity. We can see this from the chart as the Sun has only just entered Aquarius, and is only just over 3 signs ahead of Saturn. Remember here that the Sun moves faster than Saturn so the Sun being ahead of Saturn indicates that the Sun is moving away from it. The distance of 3+ signs also means that Saturn is not too close to the Sun, so it also gains dignity by being free from Combustion and the Sun’s beams. Saturn too near to the Sun cannot be seen, and within a horary, I take that to mean that the the thing signified is out of sight or won’t be noticed. So being free from the beams/combustion means that a prospective suitor should easily see Nytebugg, she isn’t going to be overlooked!!

Lastly we look for any aspects to Saturn from either malefic or benefics Here we are looking for close applying aspects. In Horary applying aspects indicate things that are in the future, separating aspects things in the past. We also keep as far as possible to aspects that are in sign. So the separating opposition to Jupiter is not counted both because it is separating but also because it’s out of sign. The same holds for the separating square to the Sun, also out of sign. We will return to this aspect later.

So Nytebugg is strong both within herself (personality, looks, inherent nature) and also in a strong position to influence the outcome. However there are some possible concerns that things may change for the worse, and that in part underlies the question In the next post I’ll look at the possible suitor and what connection, if any there is between the two significators

Minderwiz
22-01-2012, 01:42
We have assessed the strength of Saturn and used it to draw some conclusions about Nytebugg in relation to the question. Now it's the turn of the Sun, which signifies the possible suitor/boy friend.

Essential dignity

The Sun is placed in Aquarius in the first degree, and in the twelfth House. In Aquarius the Sun is in it's detriment (the sign opposite it's own sign of rulership). This is an essential debility - an indicator of weakness (and possible lack of suitability). Checking the table on Morinus (press F2) we can see that the Sun is not only in the rulership of Saturn but also in Saturn's triplicity, and Saturn's terms. We can also see that the Sun is in none of it's own dignities - it is Peregrine (an essential debility). This person could well and truly be smitten with Nytebugg but at best they will appear rather vulnerable, at worst they may not appear suitable at all - they are certainly not at their best!

Accidental dignity

The Sun is in the twelfth House, not a good place to be. In the twelfth House is cadent to the Ascendant and inconjunct the Ascendant. Being inconjunct means that planets in the house cannot be 'seen' and one of the meanings of the twelfth is hidden or secret or behind the scenes. So whilst Nytebugg is very visible, the potential boyfriend is not.

The Sun, like the Moon can never be retrograde, and being the Sun it can have no phase relationship with itself - it cannot be oriental or occidental, or under it's own beams So we don't have to look at those. Similarly whilst the Sun does have some variation in speed, that is rarely used in Horary. So we are left with any aspects from malefics or benefics. As we have noted the square to Saturn is separating and now out of sign. The Sun is applying to a square with Jupiter, but Lilly requires a trine or sextile for Jupiter to be of help.

So the Sun seems to indicate someone who appears vulnerable or even unsuitable, assuming that they are noticed at all and that is not particularly likely here. But they would have positive feelings if they encountered her..

Will anything come of the matter?

In questions about relationships this becomes a little complicated as Lilly allows two further significators to be used - the Sun for him and Venus for her - but only if these secondary significators are not already in play In this case the Sun is already in play for him, so that's not a possibility. Venus is not currently being used, so it could be used as a secondary significator for her,

Also the Moon can be used as a co-significator of the querent or even the quesited in all horaries.

What we would be looking for is an aspect or other clear connection between significators that indicates things will move from a potential match to a real match. so let's look at the possibilities:

Firstly Sun and Saturn are not forming an aspect - rather the reverse, they are in a separating aspect. There is another possible connection - through antisicion (plural antisica) This is where the two significators lie on opposite sides of the solstice line (0 Cancer to 0 Capricorn) but are an equal distance from it. This is treated as similar to a conjunction. The point directly opposite the degree of an antiscion is called a contrascion and is treated as an opposition.

You can find the antisica of the planets in Morinus by using 'Tables' and clicking on Antiscia or pressing f7. The antiscion of of Saturn is 0 degrees 45 minutes Pisces and this is nowhere near the Sun. Use the column marked Longitude in the table.

So no connection between Saturn and Sun.

Now we look at the Sun (him) and Venus (her). Venus lies at 8 degrees 39 minutes Pisces - there's no major aspect here. Neither is there an antiscion between the two. The Sun's antiscion lies at 29 degrees 16 minutes Scorpio, some distance on from Venus. So the sencond set of significators do not produce any real connection.

Finally let's look at the Moon. She is placed at 6 degrees Capricorn and she is applying to a sextile with Venus at 8 degrees 39 Pisces. So if we treat the Moon as a co-significator of the quesited, we have a connection forming. Neither Moon or Venus will aspect another planet before the sextile is perfected.

So we've looked at two different pairs of significatrs, Saturn/Sun. Sun/Venus and finally used the Moon. The first pairs do not produce a satisfactory outcome but the Moon/Venus pair will.

Conclusion

There's a real chance that Nytebugg's relationship will come about within the next six months, possibly with someone unexpected - either because they are out of sight now or because even in full view, she hasn't considered them as a possible suitable person.

As the horary really does show, this is not going to be quite as straightforward as hoped but the chance is there and she has the ability to take it, given the chance. So no guarantees but I think the opportunity will arise, keeping an open mind may well help to prevent the other person being ignored but there's a real chance that whilst she sees the opportunity she might decide the person is not suitable or the sort of person she's looking for.

Minderwiz
22-01-2012, 05:59
1 Agree the question

2 Cast the chart

3 Identify the signifcators of Querent and Quesited

4 Assess the condition of each in terms of Essential and Accidental dignities

5 Try to apply these to querent and quesited in terms of the situation

6 Look to see if there is an applying aspect between them

7 If no applying aspect check for antisica

8 If no antisica check the Moon and it's past and future aspects

9 Form your judgement of the outcome

In most question you will be looking for an aspect or other contact between significators but there may be times in a Yes or No question when simply the strength of the significators might be enough - for example a strong mutual reception by rulership or exaltation.

The two significators in an applying trine, conjunction or sextile may not be enough to secure the outcome, especially if both significators are weak or one or both is also afflicted by a malefic. In Nytebugg's question both her possible significators are strong - Saturn and Venus are both in their exaltations and both are in good houses, especially Venus. The Sun is weak though, and whilst it has an aspect to a benefic, it is only by square The outcome is also dependent on the Moon's actions The Moon in turn is peregrine but it is fast, it is in a good house (the eleventh), and it has just trined the benefic Jupiter. A final good point for it is that it is ruled by Saturn, te significator of Nytebugg.

Nows I'll take another question but those of you who would like to have a go for yourselves are welcome to try your hand I will use this thread to answer any questions on methods, as well as dealing with those who just wish to have their question answered wthout having to try for themselves or have done a chart and identified their significators but can't get any further

Nytebugg
22-01-2012, 07:33
Minderwiz, thank you for the detailed reading and walk through of it. It is great to hear that I am so strongly placed and you are correct in my desire being sincere. There is some concern for the future but it does help to know that I will not be over looked. I do like hearing that there may be an opportunity even if I decide not to take it.
This may have given me some thoughts on what it is I really want and need from a boyfriend at this stage of my life.
This is one of those thing that I will keep in mind and come back in several months time and try to remember to post a further update.

SilentBreeze
22-01-2012, 11:00
I started reading through this and I have a few things I'm confused about... The essential dignity chart in Morimus. I can't figure out how your read it. So the two columns do you read it where two of the same planets intersect on both axises? What are all the other planets then? So if you want to find out an essential dignity of a planet, how do you figure it out on the chart since there are to axises where you can correspond two different planet? I hope this makes sense.

Also is there somewhere I could look up some of these terms? I think I remember seeing a link on this board, but I cant find it any more. Also to figure out which sign a house is in when it's not exactly on that house, do you take the sign that comes first, no matter how much of it falls in the actual house? Is that correct

I'm also confused about having co-significators. So when that happens, how do you synthesize the information you get. So as long as one of them has a connection with the planet the represents the question, then it's a good sign? What does it then mean that 2 of the other planets that represent the quarent don't have any connection with the planet that represents the question?

I know lots of questions...but I'm trying to process all the information...Thanks :)

Minderwiz
22-01-2012, 21:59
I started reading through this and I have a few things I'm confused about... The essential dignity chart in Morimus. I can't figure out how your read it. So the two columns do you read it where two of the same planets intersect on both axises? What are all the other planets then? So if you want to find out an essential dignity of a planet, how do you figure it out on the chart since there are to axises where you can correspond two different planet? I hope this makes sense.

The table produced by Morinus is quite large and not presented in the best possible way for the purposes of horary. Both Solar Fire and Janus are much better in this respect but both cost serious money.

I've attached a copy of a section of the Morinus table for Nytebugg's horary and I'll use that for the explanation. The top row and the first column are used for the look ups. They contain the planets in order. Consider the row of planetary symbols at the top the 'header' row, and header column, rather like an Excel spreadsheet'

The first eight non header rows of the full table are the planets, Saturn to Moon and the Point of Fortune. The order is the traditional one of starting with the planet furthest from the Sun and working inwards. Note that Venus Mercury and Moon lie between the Earth and the Sun and therefore the Sun does not come at the end of the list.

To read the table look up the planet that you want to consider in the header column - that is the first column on the left with just the planet symbols. Let's take Venus as an example. Venus is the fifth planet down in this column. The row with Venus at the left gives you the information about Venus. In the first non header column you get it's position in the chart, in this case 8 degrees 39 minutes 25 seconds of Pisces. The second non header column has Saturn in the header row. This column will tell you if Venus is in any of the dignities of Saturn. It's got a '1' in it. This means that Venus is in the lowest dignity of Saturn - the Face or Decan of Saturn. The next column along is headed by Jupiter and has a '5' in it. This tells you that Venus is in the highest dignity of Jupiter - Jupiter is the sign ruler of Pisces. The columns headed Mars and Sun are both blank, so Venus is not in any dignity of Mars or the Sun. The column headed Vanus tells you whether Venus is in any of her own dignities. In this case we have' 4+3+2'. This tells you that Venus is in three of her own dignities. The '4' is exaltation (Venus is exalted in Pisces). The '3' tells you that Venus is in her won Triplicity (Venus rules the Water Triplicity by Day) and the '2' tells you that Venus is in her own Terms. The terms are 5 uneven divisions of a sign but if you want to know the start and finish of Venus' Terms in Pisces you can look at the chart posted for Nytebugg;s horary, where the Terms are the ring just below the degree markers.

What we are looking for is really the cell where the planet's row and column intersect. In the case of Venus the cell containing '4+3+2'. This cell tells you that Venus has essential dignity in the chart - it's in one or more of it's own dignities (in this case 3 of it's own dignities).

By contrast if you look at the row above (for the Sun) and move across to the column headed by the Sun, you will see no score at all in this cell. The Sun is not in any of it's own dignities - so it is Peregrine, a debility which scores -5

As well a planet can be in debility by Detriment (also -5) or Fall (-4). These are a position in the sign opposite its own rulership or exaltation, respectively. Sadly Morinus doesn't give these directly so you need to know not only the signs of rulership and exaltation but also to do a quick check for Detriment or Fall. Again Solar Fire and Janus provide this information directly.

Also is there somewhere I could look up some of these terms? I think I remember seeing a link on this board, but I cant find it any more.

Yes I remember writing about it but can't give you an immediate link. Given that it's quite important to horary I'll put in a separate post on it later today.

Also to figure out which sign a house is in when it's not exactly on that house, do you take the sign that comes first, no matter how much of it falls in the actual house? Is that correct?

You take the sign which contains the House Cusp. So if the House cusp is 29 degrees Pisces, Jupiter rules the House even though the majority of the House may be in Aries or even extend into Taurus. Now one of the considerations for judgement is to avoid charts with very early or late degrees rising for the Ascendant, but even if we do that, there's always a chance of late degrees on other House cusps, including the Tenth (MC) and fourth (IC). The only way to avoid this is to both avoid early or late degrees for the Ascendant and use whole sign houses. In practice whilst this can occur it's not really a major problem, as long as you are consistent in your use of houses - that is keep to one house system for your horaries.


I'm also confused about having co-significators. So when that happens, how do you synthesize the information you get. So as long as one of them has a connection with the planet the represents the question, then it's a good sign? What does it then mean that 2 of the other planets that represent the quarent don't have any connection with the planet that represents the question?

Nyteebugg asked a common question about romance and relationships, one which you will get a lot as a horary Astrologer. This is also the type of question that causes the most confusion with new readers, because it allows for more than one set of significators, according to Lilly.

My method is to go in order as follows:

1. Evaluate the significators for the Querent and Quesited using the Ascendant ruler and the relevant house ruler. And check to see if there is any connection that will lead to the matter concerned being perfected - that is the question receives a 'Yes' answer Remember here to check for Antiscia and or mutual receptions. Also we will later come across other ways of establishing connection as we go on. If it is not a relationship question then go to #3

2. If and only if it is a relationship question and there is no 'Yes' from #1 look at Sun and Venus Again check for condition and connection. You can in this case use Sun or Venus with the original significators at this stage providing you are pairing one 'his' significator with one 'hers' significator. In the Nytebugg horary there is a connection by antiscion between Saturn and Venus but as these are both significators for Nytebugg they say nothing about the quesited and hence the matter being perfected.

3. If there is still no connection or it is not a relationship question check the Moon for a chance of perfection. The Moon too should be evaluated, in Nytebugg's question it's peregrine and in it's own detriment. So whilst the chance is created there's no certainty Nytebugg will see it or will want to take it if she does see it.

I know lots of questions...but I'm trying to process all the information...Thanks :)

There is a lot of information for the beginner. The key issue I face is whether to provide the information before looking at a horary, or do some examples with incomplete information . One carries the risk of just being boring and not really being understood. The other carries the risk of being not completely followed. However I much prefer to do a few horaries and use them for illustrating the learning process, rather than make up partial examples.

However I expect requests for clarification or more information, like this one and it allows me to put in some more information, knowing it happens to be relevant for the current stage of your learning. So keep them coming :)

Incidentally I did some posts on horary in the Traditional Approaches thread so here's the link

http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=135390&page=13

Minderwiz
23-01-2012, 04:33
Yes I remember writing about it but can't give you an immediate link. Given that it's quite important to horary I'll put in a separate post on it later today.

I've started a sticky thread which looks at some of the terms used in Horary and also gives some background information and explanations.

Up to now it cover most of the terms that I used in the reading for Nytebugg but I'll add to it as and when necessary (such as further questions for assistance) I've not redefined the terms querent, quesited and significator as they are full explained at the beginning of this thread.

You will find the thread here:

http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?p=3017668#post3017668

SilentBreeze
23-01-2012, 05:16
The table produced by Morinus is quite large and not presented in the best possible way for the purposes of horary. Both Solar Fire and Janus are much better in this respect but both cost serious money.

I've attached a copy of a section of the Morinus table for Nytebugg's horary and I'll use that for the explanation. The top row and the first column are used for the look ups. They contain the planets in order. Consider the row of planetary symbols at the top the 'header' row, and header column, rather like an Excel spreadsheet'

The first eight non header rows of the full table are the planets, Saturn to Moon and the Point of Fortune. The order is the traditional one of starting with the planet furthest from the Sun and working inwards. Note that Venus Mercury and Moon lie between the Earth and the Sun and therefore the Sun does not come at the end of the list.

To read the table look up the planet that you want to consider in the header column - that is the first column on the left with just the planet symbols. Let's take Venus as an example. Venus is the fifth planet down in this column. The row with Venus at the left gives you the information about Venus. In the first non header column you get it's position in the chart, in this case 8 degrees 39 minutes 25 seconds of Pisces. The second non header column has Saturn in the header row. This column will tell you if Venus is in any of the dignities of Saturn. It's got a '1' in it. This means that Venus is in the lowest dignity of Saturn - the Face or Decan of Saturn. The next column along is headed by Jupiter and has a '5' in it. This tells you that Venus is in the highest dignity of Jupiter - Jupiter is the sign ruler of Pisces. The columns headed Mars and Sun are both blank, so Venus is not in any dignity of Mars or the Sun. The column headed Vanus tells you whether Venus is in any of her own dignities. In this case we have' 4+3+2'. This tells you that Venus is in three of her own dignities. The '4' is exaltation (Venus is exalted in Pisces). The '3' tells you that Venus is in her won Triplicity (Venus rules the Water Triplicity by Day) and the '2' tells you that Venus is in her own Terms. The terms are 5 uneven divisions of a sign but if you want to know the start and finish of Venus' Terms in Pisces you can look at the chart posted for Nytebugg;s horary, where the Terms are the ring just below the degree markers.

What we are looking for is really the cell where the planet's row and column intersect. In the case of Venus the cell containing '4+3+2'. This cell tells you that Venus has essential dignity in the chart - it's in one or more of it's own dignities (in this case 3 of it's own dignities).

By contrast if you look at the row above (for the Sun) and move across to the column headed by the Sun, you will see no score at all in this cell. The Sun is not in any of it's own dignities - so it is Peregrine, a debility which scores -5

As well a planet can be in debility by Detriment (also -5) or Fall (-4). These are a position in the sign opposite its own rulership or exaltation, respectively. Sadly Morinus doesn't give these directly so you need to know not only the signs of rulership and exaltation but also to do a quick check for Detriment or Fall. Again Solar Fire and Janus provide this information directly.


Is there any case where you would need to check is a planet falls into a different planets essential dignity? Or is it mostly that you find where the same planet intersects?

Also if the house where the questied falls under also has a planet in it do you read for the planet or the sign that if falls under it, and the ruler of that sign?

Lee
23-01-2012, 05:30
The first House itself can be used for overall Health, the best place to live, things that happen in my house (as it contains me), ships and their voyages - when I'm a passenger or have an investment in their cargo..Hi Minderwiz,

I'm a bit confused by how the first house can be used for the quesited. Wouldn't you then have the same significator for the querent as for the quesited?
For a more detailed list see Skyscript That site also has an index of what houses various things would go in, which might be useful:

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/temples/index_list.html

Minderwiz
23-01-2012, 05:54
Hi Minderwiz,

I'm a bit confused by how the first house can be used for the quesited. Wouldn't you then have the same significator for the querent as for the quesited?

In this case the quesited is you, or rather an important characteristic of you - your body and it's wellbeing.

Lilly says that you would check to see that the Ascendant, The Lord of the Ascendant and the Moon are in good condition and not afflicted by the malefics including Lords 8, 12, 6 and 4. (by square or opposition)

Thus your significator in an angular house, direct and swift in motion and in one of it's own dignities, (the higher the better) is an indication that your health is good.

Similarly the Venus or Jupiter conjunct the Ascendant would be a good sign, Saturn or Mars conjunct would not (unless they were the Ascendant ruler or had their exaltation there)

Check all three significators (Ascendant, its ruler and the Moon) if all three are fine so are you. To the extent that one or more is afflicted or weak so your health will have to be revised down.

The default here is your current knowledge of your health - so if you have regular checks and are normally bouncing with health, the bad indications in the chart will have to be quite strong to make you go off and consult a doctor. If your health is normally poor, a series of good indications in the chart suggests that it is no worse than normal. If your health is changing then the chart will indicate whether it is improving or deteriorating.

Lee
23-01-2012, 10:20
More questions. :) I know this is a lot of questions and I pondered whether it would be easier for you all in one post like this, or in separate posts. Please let me know if it's easier in separate posts; I want it to be as easy as possible for you. I'm sure I speak for everyone when I say we're truly grateful for all the time and effort you're putting into this, and for your patience with us.
When the the Moon is Void of Course. For Lilly this means that the Moon will not apply to a major aspect before it changes sign or if it does the major aspect will not be completed in the early degrees of the next sign.
How do you spot a Void of Course Moon? As the Moon moves through the sign, of course the other planets are in motion as well, so I'm having a hard time with how one would figure out whether it will make aspects to other planets before it changes sign.
press F2

You will find Saturn as the first planet in the list and looking along the row, you will see that the first column is Saturn itself and it has ‘4+3’ in it. This tells us that Saturn is both the exaltation ruler and the Triplicity ruler of Libra. Looking further along we will see that Venus scores 5 (it’s the ruler of Libra), Mars scores 2 (Saturn is in the Terms of Mars) and Jupiter scores 1 (Saturn is in the Face of Jupiter). These latter two are also shown on the chart wheel if you look for Libra and Saturn's place at the end of the sign.
A bit confused by this... in response to SilentBreeze's question you said that we really only look at where the planet's row and column intersect. I just want to be sure there's not some significance I'm missing in terms of what Venus's score, Mars's score, etc. is for Saturn.
Frawley also uses the dignities to give some impression of what the querent is interested in. In this case Venus gives the major concern, followed by Saturn, and then possibly Mars and Jupiter. Venus is both a natural symbol of romance, and in tis chart has some involvement in the seventh (where Venus is interecepted) and in the Second which has Taurus on the cusp. So we have some link to the seventh but also possibly there might be some feelings about her own resources. Saturn is her own significators, so there’s some self interest here – not in a negative way but a concern for her own future.
I'm not understanding how Venus, Mars and Jupiter come into it -- unless it relates to my question above? In that case I sort of understand it, but I don't really understand what it means to say that Venus scores 5 in Saturn's row. I think there's some relationship there that I'm not grasping. Is it simply saying that if Venus were in that spot, it would score 5?
Lastly we look for any aspects to Saturn from either malefic or benefics Here we are looking for close applying aspects. In Horary applying aspects indicate things that are in the future, separating aspects things in the past.
Is there any easy way to spot applying or separating aspects if they are out of orb? An aspect may not show up as an aspect on the aspect grid. Do we just need to manually, as it were, scan the grid and look for numbers close to the aspect degrees?
In the twelfth House is cadent to the Ascendant and inconjunct the Ascendant. Being inconjunct means that planets in the house cannot be 'seen' and one of the meanings of the twelfth is hidden or secret or behind the scenes. So whilst Nytebugg is very visible, the potential boyfriend is not.
Is the reason planets in the 12th house can't be seen from the 1st house because it's the next house over?
Lilly allows two further significators to be used - the Sun for him and Venus for her - but only if these secondary significators are not already in play
I can't help asking, what about if it were a same-sex relationship?
they say nothing about the quesited and hence the matter being perfected.

3. If there is still no connection or it is not a relationship question check the Moon for a chance of perfection.
I was unsure what you meant by "perfected" and "perfection" here.
There is a lot of information for the beginner.
There certainly is! :bugeyed: I knew this would be hard but it's even harder than I thought. A challenge for sure!
Is there any case where you would need to check is a planet falls into a different planets essential dignity? Or is it mostly that you find where the same planet intersects?

Also if the house where the questied falls under also has a planet in it do you read for the planet or the sign that if falls under it, and the ruler of that sign?
SilentBreeze has good questions here, I wondered about them as well.

One more question -- I was curious as to the best way to handle accidental dignities. Not to sound lazy, but it seems like a lot of work to go down the list for each significator to figure its accidental dignity score. (Although I suppose once one is accustomed to it, it's probably not as much work as it seems when it's all new.) Do Janus or Solar Fire automatically calculate these? Or is it better for us to do them manually, so as to learn what they're really about?

Minderwiz
23-01-2012, 20:11
More questions. :) I know this is a lot of questions and I pondered whether it would be easier for you all in one post like this, or in separate posts. Please let me know if it's easier in separate posts; I want it to be as easy as possible for you. I'm sure I speak for everyone when I say we're truly grateful for all the time and effort you're putting into this, and for your patience with us.

Thanks Lee. I don't mind how you present your questiions - I'd much rather people raised issues as and when they arise, rather than letting it go over their heads - in a classroom I can tell if people are understanding or not from the expression on their faces, and when it's time to start again with some fresh examples. Here I'm dependent on direct questions to know what bits need revisiting and what bits are understood. So your questions are just what I need - honestly :)



How do you spot a Void of Course Moon? As the Moon moves through the sign, of course the other planets are in motion as well, so I'm having a hard time with how one would figure out whether it will make aspects to other planets before it changes sign.

The key is that the planet to which the Moon applies is either in an appropriate sign (that is one sextile, square, trine or in opposition to the Moon's current sign) and in a later degree than the Moon or in a very early degree of the 'next' sign and within the Moon's orb at it's current location. For example Moon at 20 degrees Capricorn will aspect any planet in Capricorn at a later degree, or any planet in Pisces, Aries, Taurus or Cancer which is also further on than 20 degrees. To shorten the process look for planets in a greater degree of their sign than the Moon and rule out any in the next sign on (Aquarius in this case) or in the sign before the Moon's opposition (Gemini in this case) for your initial check.

If no planet exists in the last 10 degrees of those signs, then remember that the Moon's orb is 12 degrees, look for any planet at 2 degrees or less in Aquarius (the Moon is applying to a conjunction) Aries (the Moon is applying to a sextile), Taurus (the Moon is applying to a square), Gemini (the Moon is applying to a trine), and Leo (the Moon is applying to an opposition). That might sound complicated but I just chec firstly for any planet in an early degree of a sign and if I find one I check to see if it's a major aspect away from the Moon's next sign and within the Moon's current orb.

I'd always use a visual check rather than rely on software - Solar Fire will tell me that the Moon is VOC but on inspection I can see that a manor aspect is forming to a planet out of sign. What matters is the application process has started. This would be also be true if we shifted the Moon to 29 degrees of Capricorn, it be well into the application to a planet at 2 degres, as described above. I've just rechecked Lilly and he simply requires application before the sign change. So add 12 degrees to the Moon's current degree and if that takes
you into the next sign just check for planets in that degree or lower as described above. Do not consider the orbs of the planet that the Moon is applying too, just use the Moon's orb alone.




A bit confused by this... in response to SilentBreeze's question you said that we really only look at where the planet's row and column intersect. I just want to be sure there's not some significance I'm missing in terms of what Venus's score, Mars's score, etc. is for Saturn.

The intersection of the planet's row and column give you it's essential dignity if any. It also tells you if the planet is Peregrine (nothing in that cell). Sadly it doesn't tell you if it's in Fall or Detriment, as Solar Fire does.

The values in the other cells for Venus, Mars etc I'll deal with below in answer to your follow up question.



I'm not understanding how Venus, Mars and Jupiter come into it -- unless it relates to my question above? In that case I sort of understand it, but I don't really understand what it means to say that Venus scores 5 in Saturn's row. I think there's some relationship there that I'm not grasping. Is it simply saying that if Venus were in that spot, it would score 5?

Using Venus as the example, its score of 5 in Saturn's row means that Saturn is in a sign ruled by Venus - either Taurus or Libra - we know from the chart that Saturn is in Libra and we have this confirmed by the '4' in Saturn's cell) So Venus is the sign ruler at the place where Saturn is. The same holds for any other planet that has a score in Saturn's row. Thus the 1 for Jupiter means that Saturn is in the Face or Decan of Jupiter and the 2 for Mars, means that Saturn is in the terms of Mars. The scores from other planets may help you in determining interest or motive if you wish to make use of Frawley's approach but at this stage I would say ignore that. The other use is to check for a mutual reception. We'll look at that later, but for the moment we'll ignore it too.



Is there any easy way to spot applying or separating aspects if they are out of orb? An aspect may not show up as an aspect on the aspect grid. Do we just need to manually, as it were, scan the grid and look for numbers close to the aspect degrees?

Don't bother with aspects that are out of orb they don't affect the reading to any extentat this stage' or even at most stages. The only time they have any real input now is if you are checking the Moon's VOC in which case any planet further on in the same sign as the Moon stops it from being VOC even if the conjunction is not yet applying.

Is the reason planets in the 12th house can't be seen from the 1st house because it's the next house over?

Exactly right!!! The same would strictly speaking hold for the second, sixth and eighth houses, none of whic makes a major aspect to the Ascendant. The twelfth also has the connotations of being concerned with hidden or secret things. That is probably derived from it being inconjunct to the Ascendant.



I can't help asking, what about if it were a same-sex relationship?


That's a good question and certainly one that I've never seen a traditional Astrologer read for - you won't find one in Lilly LOL. I would use the same two additional significators of Venus and the Sun. Again strictly speaking these significators are used in marriage questions but we now have civil partnerships for same sex couples, and indeed the civil ceremony or a religious ceremony is not needed to establish some rights for all couples (depending on jurisdiction).



I was unsure what you meant by "perfected" and "perfection" here.



'Perfected' is when the aspect is completed - the two planets occupy the same degree of their relative signs (or the same sign if it's a conjunction). The aspect 'perfected' between significators is a sign that the question asked about will be brought to 'perfection' - the matter will be resolved favourably. It's not the only criterion but it's a good one.


SilentBreeze has good questions here, I wondered about them as well.


I must admit I didn't get round to answering that one and I'll be the gentleman and reply separately to SilentBreeze's question :)


One more question -- I was curious as to the best way to handle accidental dignities. Not to sound lazy, but it seems like a lot of work to go down the list for each significator to figure its accidental dignity score. (Although I suppose once one is accustomed to it, it's probably not as much work as it seems when it's all new.) Do Janus or Solar Fire automatically calculate these? Or is it better for us to do them manually, so as to learn what they're really about?

Janus does given the calculations of Accidental Dignities but Solar Fire does not. I usually consider house position, whether retrograde or direct, whether combust or under the beams and whether in partile trine or sextile to Jupiter and Venus or partile square or opposition to Mars and Saturn.

All of those are easily spotted from the chart. I will only use orentality or speed if it is going to make a difference (that is there's no clear evidence as yet that the matter will come about and I decide that it's worth doing additional checks) In your case I wouldn't bother with these yet. The sam goes for aspects with fixed stars.

There certainly is! :bugeyed: I knew this would be hard but it's even harder than I thought. A challenge for sure!

What we need is a few more questions to work through, so can I suggest you think of a question, cast the chart and post it in this thread. Then we can work through it together, with some comments and questions from others I hope. Don't try to do everything at once, just check that you can ask a question that is clear, can cast a chart and hopefully identify the significators (not always easy) then we'll work through together.

Minderwiz
23-01-2012, 20:43
Is there any case where you would need to check is a planet falls into a different planets essential dignity? Or is it mostly that you find where the same planet intersects?

Also if the house where the questied falls under also has a planet in it do you read for the planet or the sign that if falls under it, and the ruler of that sign?

Your main concern at this stage is the essential dignity of the significator planet, so the most important cell is that one at the intersection of the planet's row and column.

Later on we'll come across mutual receptions, where one planet is in the dignity of another, and that other planet is also in a dignity of the first planet. The best known ones are by mutual rulership, e.g. Saturn in Libra and Venus in Aquarius. However mutual reception can include the other dignities. Solar Fire kindly finds them for you but in Morinus you would have to do a manual check. At the beginner's stage just keep to a planet's own dignity and we'll take a separate look at mutual reception, when one crops up in a question.

You can also use the main dignities (Rulership, Exaltation and Triplicity) to infer something about the querent or quesited - if they are people - you can infer their motives or interets. That's a bit advanced yet, so we will again look at it later.

If a house has a planet in it (that is not the ruler and not the significator of the querent) I only bother with it if I'm forced to use it as the significator of the quesited, that is the house ruler is already the significator of the querent, and there's no exaltation planet (such as in Aquarius or Gemini) that I can use instead. In which case I would assess it's essential dignity and proceed as usual, with it as the signifcator of the questited. This does happen but quite rarely.

Now it's also possible that it might also come into play in some questions, either as part of a supplementary question, or through providing helpful aspects. For example the querent's significator and the quesited's significator might not aspect but both may aspect this planet in the house of the quesited - in which case I'd take that as evidence that the question might come to a positive conclusion However again this should not be a primary concern, in a horary. Alternatively it might be a benefic or malefic in which case I will check it's own essential dignity to see if it is likely to help or hinder the affairs of tha house. Only do as little as you need is a good rule. Indeed Frawley's injunction it to keep it as simple as possible. And now you realise why :)

Also one of Frawley's other rules is that it's alright to be wrong! That is an Astrologer can get it wrong or make mistakes - we learn from them through revisiting the chart to see what we missed. When you're learning you will certainly miss things or make mistakes - as you gather more information and knowledge those errors will begin to diminish but they will never go away entirely - we're only human after all.

Learning involves taking the plunge and trying to answer a question, no matter how small your knowedge doing it helps and if you post here I can provide guidance or help as and when you need it.

As a beginner, keep to identifying the significator's of the querent and the quesited, then;

check that there is essential dignity and that the two are in an applying aspect.

Good house placement, being direct and not combust or under the beams and being in good aspect to benefics adds more evidence of success,

Being in essential debility, being in a poor house, being retrograde or combust/under the beams, or in hard aspect to a malefic is evidence that the matter will not come to success or will do so only with great difficulty.

In practice you are likely to find a mixture of positive and negative evidence ('testimonies' in traditional language) it's the balane between them that decides, i.e more testimonies for the matter being considered than against it suggests that it will come about.

A general request

This thread can no9t only be used for those wanting to try their hand, it can also be used by someone just wanting to ask a question - my answering it will help the learning process of others as well.

Lee
24-01-2012, 06:47
Indeed Frawley's injunction it to keep it as simple as possible. And now you realise why :)

Yes. :D

Ok, here's a chart and a question.

The chart is for 4:05 p.m., January 23, 2012. Location is Bethesda, Maryland (77 degrees 06 W, 38 degrees 58 N) (you can find this if you do a search in Morinus). GMT is -5 for Eastern Standard Time. (Chart is attached to this post.)

The question: I work as an independent contractor. All my work comes through one agency. Last year was very good, but for the past few months I've been in an extended slump, and my income has been low. My question is: Will the pace and quality of the work pick back up within two weeks? This issue is actually causing me some anxiety, and thus one in which I have intense interest.

Significators: I am the querent, so my significator is the Moon, which is in Aquarius in the 7th house.

The quesited could have been a number of things -- the agency as an entity, or the principal of the agency who assigns the work, or even the industry itself, whose slowness is probably responsible for my own slowed work. I decided to use the agency as an entity, because for all I know, the principal of the agency may at times delegate the scheduling to an employee, so I'm probably better off using the agency as the quesited rather than any specific person. The 10th house covers job and employer, so I'm using the 10th for the agency. That makes the significator Mars, which is in Virgo in the 3rd house.

That's as far as I'll go at the moment, except preliminarily (and hopefully correctly) to note that both significators are peregrine (no essential dignity), and that the Moon is combust.

Minderwiz
24-01-2012, 09:14
Thanks Lee,

I certainly understand your question, so it's clear that you did when you cast the chart. So step one is OK.

Step two is to identify the significators and the Moon is definitely yours. The agency is a little bit awkward for an outsider, it's not directly your employer, as you are freelance, on the other hand it seems to be responsible for 100% of your income and appears to be in the same relatonship to you as an employer. Let's take it for your employer for the reading. Mars therefore is the significator of the agency. However an alternative relationship might be one of buyer (the agency) and seller (you), that might be a real alternative if the agency decides from whom to buy in services and when.

Looking at the Moon, it is indeed Peregrine, so you are not strong at the moment in relation to work (which indeed is the background to the chart). There's worse news to come -the Moon is conjunct the eighth house cusp. If we had been using Placidus houses it would have been clearly in the eighth but that's little comfort as traditionally a planet within 5 degrees of the House cusp is treated as being in that house. So we have an eighth House Moon which piles on accidental dignity - you are not well placed to deal with this situation Yes the Moon is also combust but it's leaving combustion, and it's fast (well just short of Frawley's definition of fast but above it's average speed). So at least there is some marginally good news, though after leaving combustion it will still be under the beams. Tecnically the Moon is occidental or gaining in light, although at the moment of the chart it could not be seen The latter point is again a positive one. So the chart confirms that you are not in a good situation and that you have little power to influence the outcome.

What about the agency Mars appears to be Peregrine, if so the agency too has little power to affect the outcome Placed in the third House, it is in a house that is is cadent and as the lowest possible positive score for placement It's in a better situation to act than you but it's power is low.

There's no major aspect forming between the Moon and Mars. So that does not suggest more work coming.

There's a number of things we could look at to see if there's any other hope:

We could check for a link by antisicia

We could check to see if a third party might intervene

We could re-examine the original allocation of the tenth to the agency and ask if it is more reasonable to treat it as a buyer

Now you look on the agency as an employer, so I'm loathe to do that, without you reconsidering the relationship but at this stage I'm flagging it up as an option.

One further consideration - is the agency as weak as the reading to date suggests? There may be a way of re-evaluating it's position using mutual receptions.

Minderwiz
24-01-2012, 19:30
I flagged up some possible avenues of exploration but it was late (well late here :) ) so I didn't take them further but I think there's some avenues here for further exploration. I'm going to do this in two posts. The first using the original significators, the second considering the situation as one of buying and selling professional services.

Further exploration of original significators

Lee's chart has no connection between Moon and Mars, either is in a dignity of the other and there is no major aspect forming between them. At the moment this suggests that things will not improve over what they are now, thought Lee's significator, the Moon, has at least two things going for it, it is fast and it is gaining in light. But this does not really offset the combustion, eighth house placement and peregrine nature of the Moon.

Contact by antiscia

With no contact by aspect the next thing I would check is contact by antiscia. That is the two are equally spaced from the solstice line of zero Cancer to zero Capricorn. This is easily done in Morinus by using Tables...Antiscia and looking up either one of the two significators. If we do this for Mars, which is the first one we come to, we find its antiscion is 18 degrees 20 minutes of Libra - this is nowhere near the Moon's position in Aquarius so there is no contact. We can double check by looking at the antiscion of the Moon, which is 19 degrees 47 minutes of Scorpio. We would want the antiscion of one to be within orb of the zodiacal placement of the other.

The aid of a third party

Sometimes a third party might enter in and help. There are two quick ways to check for this. The first is called Translation of Light and involves one of the significators being aspecte by a faster planet, which will then go on and aspect the other significator. Usually this is the Moon or Mercury as the two fastest planets. However here the Moon is one of the significators and there's no planet fast enough to catch it and bring the light from Mars (it would previously have had to aspect Mars).

The second is that the faster of the two significators - Moon in this case - aspects a slower planet than the other significator (Mars), which in turn will be aspected by that other significator. This is called Collection of Light and with Mars as the slower of the two significators, would usually involve Jupiter or Saturn as the third party.l That is the Moon would have to aspect one of those two and then later on Mars aspects the self same planet. A visual check shows that Saturn in Libra is in the next sign to Mars, and so Mars cannot make a major aspect to it, even if the Moon aspects it. Jupiter is in 1 degree Taurus and whilst it's in the Moon's exaltation, it is in fewer degrees than the Moon, so the square aspect has passed.

I would also check to see the speeds of Venus or Mercury, if they are approaching their station they might well be slow enough for Mars to catch them but in this case it's Mars that's approaching it's station and is very slow. (To check speeds use 'Tables...Speed)

So no chance here of a third party intervention. And the slowness of Mars reflects badly on the agency's business - it looks to be static at the moment and the prospect is for it to decline (Mars will station retrograde).

Mutual Reception

We are now down to a very bad outlook on this reading. I raised the issue of whether Mars was really peregrine in my last post.

Using our table of dignities we can see that Mars is in both the sign and exaltation of Mercury. But Mercury is in Capricorn, the exaltation of Mars - both have a mutual interest. What is more they are in a partile trine. In a strict definition of mutual reception, there must be not only the position in a dignity of the other but also an aspect between them. Even though the trine is just past perfection it is still in the same degree (24th) of the sign. Moreover Mercury is applying to a conjunction with the Sun., which is the ruler of Lee's second house of resources and money. So is this someone coming to the rescue of Lee's finances (which appear in a bad way as the Sun is in detriment)? Mercury here could be a client of the agency and given both it's nature and it's rulership of the third house in the chart, if Lee's work has anything to do with computers, accounts, graphics, or communications then we might have something. If so I'd guess that this was an old and favoured client, not particularly a new one.

Ronia
24-01-2012, 22:50
How about my question from the previous thread? Will I start a desired job/career by the end of this year? Job would be the 6th house, career the 10th, do I look at both rulers to determine what will be my employment status?

Also, it's not possible for me to install any new programs on my computer, how do I calculate these essential dignities? I don't understand the lists on Skyscript... They require calculation which I don't know how to do.

Ronia
24-01-2012, 23:27
And also, am I right I have a void of course Moon here: https://picasaweb.google.com/simplyaven/DropBox?authkey=Gv1sRgCL2t3tyrhJLUigE#570120410785 4745682

Considering we don't use Neptune, I don't see her forming any major aspect (applying) before she moves into Pisces and well into it. Correct?

Minderwiz
25-01-2012, 01:03
How about my question from the previous thread? Will I start a desired job/career by the end of this year? Job would be the 6th house, career the 10th, do I look at both rulers to determine what will be my employment status?

Of course and apologies for failing to pick it up before. The full question posted was:

Minderwiz, are you going to continue wuth the horary readings this year? If so, can I ask about a new job in the new year? That means: will I start a well paying desired by me job/career by the end of 2012?

The significators would be you - first house, as normal.

Now you use job/career as though the are the same and indeed that's the way that I would treat them here. The only meaningful distinctions that I can think of between 'career; and 'joib' is that a career is chosen deliberately and is something that you enjoy doing (or at least when you started it) and possibly but not always pays better. 'Career' also has connotations of professional status of some sort. A 'job' on the other hand is something you do to pay the bills but may not enjoy. In this question you deliberately used the phrase 'desired by me' as well as 'well paid'. Either way both 'job' and 'career' would be tenth house. The tenth says something about your social status and whether you have a 'job' or 'career' you gain a large part of your social status from it. I know that some modern writers treat the sixth as covering work colleagues or 'the job' but I think that misses the original meaning which was 'slaves and servants'. Now I know few of us these days have slaves and servants but may of us do have subordinates at work - people who answer to us. And also we all from time to time hire others to do work for us - plumbers, electricians, real estate agents, caterers, etc. These are sixth house people (though as John Frawley points out you might end up crawling to the plumber to come out and fix the leaking tap). Lee in the post above is in a sixth house relationship to the Agency and if the principal of the agency had asked the question about Lee, then I'd have used the sixth house for him.


So for your question the significators are the first and tenth houses rulers.



Also, it's not possible for me to install any new programs on my computer, how do I calculate these essential dignities? I don't understand the lists on Skyscript... They require calculation which I don't know how to do.

For Rulership, Exaltation,

all you need to do is check the sign of your significator and then use the table on Skyscript to check if the planet is in one of these two dignities using the firstthree columns of the table. The first column gives the sign (in which the planet concerned is located) and is used for all the essential dignities. The second column giver the planet ruling the sign (you can ignore the D or N for Day and Night). The third column gives the planet exalted in that sign. So if your planet appears in the second column it's the sign ruler, if it appears in the third column it's in it's exaltation and if it appears in the first two columns then it's Mercury in Virgo. Again you can ignore the degree quoted, these did indeed use to be important but even in the Medieval period they were not really made any use of.

The fourth column is the Triplictiy ruler for the three signs of the same element. Now here you will find two planets listed, one for D(ay) and one for N(ight). Which of these you take depends on the time that you cast the chart. If the Sun is above the horizon take the one in the D column, if it's below the horizon then take the one in the N column. If it's a Water sign always use Mars as the Triplicity ruler whether it's Day or Night. All these three dignities require you only to know what sign the planet is in. There's no calculation of any sort.

Terms and Face

There is now a block of five columns all under the heading 'The Terms of the Planets'. To use this block you need to know what degree of the sign your planet is in. You can get this from scrutinising the chart, or looking at the list of the positions given by astro.com.

Each sign has five Terms, and the planets ruling each term are given in order plust the degree at which their Term rulership ends. Thus for Aries, the first Term has Jupiter listed followed by the number 6. This means Jupiter rules the terms from the start of Aries (0 degrees) up to but not including 6 degrees exactly , i.e. up to 5 degrees 59 minutes 59 seconds (and any fraction of a second you care to suggest). From 6 degrees exactly up to but not including 14 degrees exactly, Venus rules the second Term. From 14 degrees exactly up to 21 degrees Mercury rules, from 21 exactly up to 26 Mars rules and from 26 exactly up to the end of Aries, Saturn rules.

Terms are the only difficult set because the Terms are not equal and I certainly can't remember each individual one. So I use the table or software.

The next three columns come under the common heading 'The Faces of The Planets' . Each sign is divided into three equal segments of 10 degrees (sometimes referred to as the Decans). Again yu need the degree of the sign the planet is in, but you should already have determined that for finding it's Terms. The degrees quoted in the column should be read in the same way as for Terms. That is the first Face runs from 0 degrees exactly up to but not including 10 degrees, in Aries this will be ruled by Mars. The second Face runs from 10 degrees exactly and is ruled by The Sun and the final Face runs fron 20 degrees exactly and is ruled by Venus. Again using Aries as the example.

For both Terms and Face, if the planet you are looking for is listed in one of the columns for the sign it is placed in and is in one of the degrees that fall into that Term or Face then it has dignity. However you need to take a little care that the planet is in it's own Terms. So if Jupiter is at 6 degrees exact of Aries, it is actually in the Terms of Venus and has no dignity by Terms (though it might be the Triplicity ruler if the chart was cast at night)



Debilities

The Final two columns of the table give you the planet in Detriment or Fall in that sign. So if your planet is in one of those two columns it's got a debility.


None of the dignities require any mathematical calculation but they do require you to know the planet's sign placement at least, for Triplicity you will need to know whether it is night or day and for Terms and Face what degree of the sign it is in.

Minderwiz
25-01-2012, 01:15
And also, am I right I have a void of course Moon here: https://picasaweb.google.com/simplyaven/DropBox?authkey=Gv1sRgCL2t3tyrhJLUigE#570120410785 4745682

Considering we don't use Neptune, I don't see her forming any major aspect (applying) before she moves into Pisces and well into it. Correct?

No the Moon is not VOC because it is already beginning to apply to a trine to Saturn at 29 Libra - remember application includes all the major aspects here.

The trick is to scan round the chart for planets in a greater degree than the Moon and then if you find any (excluding Chiron and the outers and asteroids) checking to see if the whole sign aspect is a major aspect.

As before remember that the Moon's orb is 12 degrees so if you don't find a planet on your first pass, then check for applications that will begin before the Moon changes sign but will not be completed till afterwards.

BTW is this chart one that you cast for your question or, if not,are you intending to cast one yourself or do you want me to cast one for you?

Minderwiz
25-01-2012, 01:57
Lee's horary shows one real issue that the Astrologer might have to confront, if doing a horary for someone else. If Lee had asked me to do the horary, I would have understood the question and cast a chart and then I would come up against a problem in choosing the significators.

Using the Moon for Lee would be straightforward but which house do I then use for the Agency and the work? Lee stated he was 'freelance' which usually means that he is not directly employed in the agency. He is used to contract out particular jobs. On the other hand he also states that 100% of his work comes from them. Now I would find it difficult to choose between the tenth house - his employer and his career and using the seventh house - the agency as a buyer of the professional service he sells. In which case the professional service itself is the ninth house. If the seventh was used, then the ruler is Saturn and Saturn would signify the agency. Saturn is in exaltation in Libra and angular in the fourth House. So in this reading the agency would be seen as very strong in relation to Lee with both the power and the ability to control his work process.

Whether that control will last is open to some doubt at Saturn is in the last degree of the sign. The condition of the Moon remains as before, so we have a very unequal relationship here. However the good news is that the next major aspect the Moon makes to a planet will be a trine to Saturn, assuming we ignore the forthcoming trine to the South Node. If we allow the trine to the South Node then the perfection will be 'Prohibited' by the South Node - the matter will not come out as we hope.

We could also use the ninth house ruler, Jupiter to make some assessment about the quality of the work Lee would be required to do professionally.

Both views show Lee as being in a weak position, the first one also shows issues with the agency but indicates a possibility of a third party bringing work from the agency to Lee (or at least adding to his resources). The second carries at least some possibility of work too, with the Saturn Moon trine. Both show problems for Lee, either from a static or declining agency in the first to something or someone intervening to stop the possible flow of work in the second.

If I had to choose, I would not do it without discussing it through with Lee in terms of his relationship to the agency. If he sees himself very much as an employee, then no matter what the legal distinction is, I'd use the tenth House for the agency.

My point here is that the choice of significator can make a difference and if there are two or more possible relationships in the question, you should discuss it with the querent before proceeding to judgement. I have had questions before in which I've failed to ask more about the relationship involved and produced a perfectly sound but sadly wrong reading. To me, it's those sort of 'detective' tasks that make Horary so interesting.

Astraea
25-01-2012, 02:51
In Lee's horary, it doesn't appear (to me) to make much difference whether the agency is assigned to the 10th or the 7th. Either way, in the end it doesn't look good for the agency or the opportunities that might come through a third party.

If we give the agency to the 10th, I don't think we can expect much of Mars as a helper in his reception with Mercury - Mars is peregrine, cadent, and retrograde as of today, so even though Mercury is in the sign of his (Mars') exaltation, the condition of Mars is such that he won't be able to deliver. In addition, Mercury is disposited by (i.e., in a sign ruled by) Saturn in the final degree of his (Saturn's) exaltation. The last degrees of a sign often indicate desperation, or at least a turning point; and here, Saturn teeters on the brink of Scorpio - where he, too, will become peregrine. Saturn won't actually leave the sign of his exaltation until October, but that is because he turns retrograde (ugh!) at the gate of Scorpio - so he will be able to keep up appearances for awhile (exaltation typically refers more to exaggeration or wishful thinking than actual capacity). Mercury in this chart rules the 3rd and 12th houses, which does not signify much ability to help, and at least the potential for material harm (through the 12th) - and when Mercury leaves the sign of Mars' exaltation, he will move right into another sign ruled by Saturn (whose fortunes will eventually change for the worse).

If we view the agency as a 7th house entity - which I am inclined to do, since the 7th concerns agents in general - the situation remains basically the same, and of course Saturn's role becomes even more pronounced in that case (he being the ruler of Capricorn on the cusp of the 7th). Saturn's exaltation in Libra shows the agency's significator to be in better condition than Lee's significator Moon - but Saturn will eventually leave Libra after several months of retrogradation, which I would interpret as a period of treading water for the agency; when Saturn finally enters Scorpio in October, they will very likely be in deep financial straits. Planets in exaltation often promise more than they can deliver, or look better than they are (think PR). Saturn also rules the 8th house of the horary, signifying the agency's money (as the 2nd house from the 7th), so they will continue to experience financial losses. There might be a third-party intervention that enables the agency to stay afloat until October - a loan, for example - but if so, that support will likely evaporate when Saturn enters Scorpio, where he will immediately oppose the general significator of money (Jupiter) in the 10th house of career for the chart (the 4th of the grave for the agency!).

Lee's question includes a two-week time limit in regard to his immediate situation with the agency, and within that period things might look better than they will ultimately prove to be. In his shoes, I believe I would be alert to the possibilities offered by a third party (if such a person materializes), but also cover myself by looking around at other options for employment. The third-party scenario might be one in which a client of Lee's present agency decides to start a venture of his own, inviting other clients to follow him; but he won't be able to deliver all that he promises, and the work - if it is offered - will probably not be permanent. At the same time, Lee's present agency is on shaky ground. So it might be a good idea to "think outside the box" when it comes to future professional and financial satisfaction.

Edited to add: I see the final Moon-Saturn trine as further testimony to an illusory "things are looking up" scenario. It might signify promise, but there's not much to support it.

Ronia
25-01-2012, 05:01
No the Moon is not VOC because it is already beginning to apply to a trine to Saturn at 29 Libra - remember application includes all the major aspects here.

The trick is to scan round the chart for planets in a greater degree than the Moon and then if you find any (excluding Chiron and the outers and asteroids) checking to see if the whole sign aspect is a major aspect.

As before remember that the Moon's orb is 12 degrees so if you don't find a planet on your first pass, then check for applications that will begin before the Moon changes sign but will not be completed till afterwards.

BTW is this chart one that you cast for your question or, if not,are you intending to cast one yourself or do you want me to cast one for you?

This was the one I cast for the question but I thought we were looking for aspects ahead, I somehow had the wrong feeling those "behind" the Moon were not applying aspects but separating, just a misperception, now I know better. OK, I'll try and do something with this chart then, thanks for the guidance in the other posts too. :)

Minderwiz
25-01-2012, 05:03
In Lee's horary, it doesn't appear (to me) to make much difference whether the agency is assigned to the 10th or the 7th. Either way, in the end it doesn't look good for the agency or the opportunities that might come through a third party.

Yes the long term view is not particularly good either way, using the 10th offers the possibility of some hope in the period of the horary but with an agency at best dependent on one main client as the source is not a particularly safe scenario


If we give the agency to the 10th, I don't think we can expect much of Mars as a helper in his reception with Mercury - Mars is peregrine, cadent, and retrograde as of today, so even though Mercury is in the sign of his (Mars') exaltation, the condition of Mars is such that he won't be able to deliver. In addition, Mercury is disposited by (i.e., in a sign ruled by) Saturn in the final degree of his (Saturn's) exaltation. The last degrees of a sign often indicate desperation, or at least a turning point; and here, Saturn teeters on the brink of Scorpio - where he, too, will become peregrine. Saturn won't actually leave the sign of his exaltation until October, but that is because he turns retrograde (ugh!) at the gate of Scorpio - so he will be able to keep up appearances for awhile (exaltation typically refers more to exaggeration or wishful thinking than actual capacity). Mercury in this chart rules the 3rd and 12th houses, which does not signify much ability to help, and at least the potential for material harm (through the 12th) - and when Mercury leaves the sign of Mars' exaltation, he will move right into another sign ruled by Saturn (whose fortunes will eventually change for the worse).

Well Mars is in the exaltation of Mercury as well as it's rulership so there is a mutual reception. That being said without the mutual reception both would be weak, so we have a possibly weak client coming to the weak agency's rescue short term. Saturn plays no important role in the reading based on the agency being 10th house though it does provide some background to the 'client'. Yes Mercury is accidentally malefic being Lord 12 but the aspect to Mars is a trine, not a square or opposition and this tends to reduce any malefic intent as it's an aspect of friendship. Moreover Mars is received into Virgo my the aspect from Mercury, and malefics tend not to harm planets that they are in receiving - the old idea that whether you like them or not, when you welcome a guest into your house you don't stab them in the back - there's a hospitality and service involved.


If we view the agency as a 7th house entity - which I am inclined to do, since the 7th concerns agents in general - the situation remains basically the same, and of course Saturn's role becomes even more pronounced in that case (he being the ruler of Capricorn on the cusp of the 7th). Saturn's exaltation in Libra shows the agency's significator to be in better condition than Lee's significator Moon - but Saturn will eventually leave Libra after several months of retrogradation, which I would interpret as a period of treading water for the agency; when Saturn finally enters Scorpio in October, they will very likely be in deep financial straits. Planets in exaltation often promise more than they can deliver, or look better than they are (think PR). Saturn also rules the 8th house of the horary, signifying the agency's money (as the 2nd house from the 7th), so they will continue to experience financial losses. There might be a third-party intervention that enables the agency to stay afloat until October - a loan, for example - but if so, that support will likely evaporate when Saturn enters Scorpio, where he will immediately oppose the general significator of money (Jupiter) in the 10th house of career for the chart (the 4th of the grave for the agency!)

I would agree with you that the seventh would seem to be the 'right' house for the agency - but and it is a but, there's a difference between the legal and the actual relationship. If Lee sees himself as 'employed' by the agency and the agency alone, then I think we are moving to the tenth for the agency as Lee will act as though he were an employee, though the agency may very well not see things this way. Indeed with the Moon on the eighth cusp - the House of the agent's monies, it may see Lee simply a source that help it to make money.

Using the seventh for the agency rules out Mars as a significator and (as far as I've chosen to go) that rules out the third party intervention. In that case the agency will continue in its dominant situation to Lee possibly giving him work (Moon trines Saturn) or not (Moon is prohibited by the South Node) as they choose. But you are quite right, Saturn is on the verge of losing it's dignity and that lurch tends to indicate that the agency will have problems in the (not too distant) future.


Lee's question includes a two-week time limit, and within that period things might look better than they will ultimately prove to be. In his shoes, I believe I would be alert to the possibilities offered by a third party (if such a person materializes), but also cover myself by looking around at other options for employment. The third-party scenario might be one in which a client of Lee's present agency decides to start a venture of his own, inviting other clients to follow him; but he won't be able to deliver all that he promises, and the work - if it is offered - will probably not be permanent. At the same time, Lee's present agency is on shaky ground. So it might be a good idea to "think outside the box" when it comes to future professional and financial satisfaction.

The problem here is that things change and October is a long time off in Horary terms and indeed economic terms. Are we able to project a chart based on a time period of two weeks over a period of 10 months? Within the period of the question things do not look good and there's no strong evidence of improvement but tere's a chance of some work coming whichever significator we use. Chance though is not certainty.


Edited to add: I see the final Moon-Saturn trine as further testimony to an illusory "things are looking up" scenario. It might signify promise, but there's not much to support it.

Being a natural pessimist (Saturn on the Ascendant) I would take the Moon/Saturn trine as being prohibited by the trine to the South Node. The South Node (Tail of the Dragon) is a natural malefic as well so the outcome will probably be thwarted if we use the seventh for the agency. Something like 'Sorry Lee, we had some work lined up for you but it's just fallen through'.

Astraea
25-01-2012, 05:30
I don't think we can read a longer term into Lee's question than he has stipulated regarding his own situation, but a horary can indicate far-reaching trends for impersonal entities like the agency. Hopefully an entirely new employment opportunity will present itself to Lee in the not-too-distant future.

Yes, it's certainly better that Mercury and Mars are trine and not square or opposition one another; however, I don't think either of them are in a position to do each other much good. Mars is in the sign and exaltation of Mercury, so Mercury wants badly to help out - but Mars is not essentially strong enough to capitalize on whatever Mercury offers.

Astraea
25-01-2012, 05:37
Wait, I see what you're saying - the reception saves Mars from being peregrine. Considering the trine between Mars and Mercury, you're absolutely right. It's a slim reed, but it's something! :)

Ronia
25-01-2012, 06:02
I started with checking the Ascendant degree which is in the middle of Cancer, so that appears to be fine.
It makes my significator the Moon.
I thought she was void of course but apparently I was wrong, so that's fine too.
The ruler of the 10th (my job/career) is Jupiter.

About my significator - the Moon, she's in the 8th house which I guess is not very nice. I' say she is not very visible there, is she?
I must admit I'm struggling with these dignities tables, I really am but from what I see, it looks the Moon doesn't have any in 19 degrees Aquarius... She is in the terms of Mercury, in the face of Venus but what does that mean?

I really don't understand the triplicity concept either.
It seems that Saturn and Mercury are triplicity rulers of all air signs but what
does it mean to this Moon? She is forming a trine with Saturn which is the triplicity ruler
for daytime but does it give her any dignity? I'm totally lost here. :( Why do I need this triplicity and how do I use it???

Accidental dignities - in the 8th house -2, waxing +2, under the Sun's beams -4 and that's all I could do here.
Overall looks like I'm in a very weak position.

Now Jupiter, my job.
He's in the 2nd degree Taurus, I don't see any dignity there either... Weird. He's in the terms of Venus in the face of Mercury but it
doesn't mean anything to me again, so I'm just quoting this table.

Accidental dignities
11th house +4, direct +4, I don't know if he's fast or not so can't use these numbers, I think he's oriental (?) +2,
free from Sun's beams +5. But I don't understand how it relates to my question at all. My hypothetical job is nice?
For some reason I had a better understanding before, I really feel lost now with all these numbers and I somehow
lost my path through the chart. :( I can't see the obvious - the aspects and the answer.

What I can make of Jupiter in the 11th is that friends may play role here... But this is my gut feeling
not the horary tables. I'm lost having two significators without any of those essential dignities and I don't know
what to make of these triplicities. Now I see Venus would be the triplicity ruler for daytime
Earth signs and Jupiter is in her terms but what does that mean?

Finally, my answer. The Moon will form a sextile with Jupiter right before she leaves Aquarius ( the sextile shown for
Neptune on the chart) but is this enough? Is this just an opportunity?

Chart: https://picasaweb.google.com/simplyaven/DropBox?authkey=Gv1sRgCL2t3tyrhJLUigE#570120410785 4745682

Minderwiz
25-01-2012, 08:04
This was the one I cast for the question but I thought we were looking for aspects ahead, I somehow had the wrong feeling those "behind" the Moon were not applying aspects but separating, just a misperception, now I know better. OK, I'll try and do something with this chart then, thanks for the guidance in the other posts too. :)

Ah - I think you are taking 'ahead' here to mean forward in the zodiac, rather than simply ahead in time. In your chart the Moon is at 19 degrees Aquarius and Saturn is at 29 degrees Libra. I think you have ruled Saturn out because it lies behind the Moon in the zodiac - Libra precedes Aquarius. However applying aspects can be forward or backward in the zodiac, what matters is that the aspect will be perfected in the future.

The Moon in Aquarius trines planets in Gemini and planets in Libra. Either of these trines can be applying as all that term indicate is that the aspect will occur in the future. With Moon at 19 degrees Aquarius and Saturn at 29 degrees Libra the Moon being the faster planet is gaining on Saturn and will perfect the trine in the future (from the time of your chart) Indeed as I type this the Moon has reached 27 degrees Aquarius and will perfect the trine in the next couple of hours

Minderwiz
25-01-2012, 08:59
Hi Ronia

Yes you're right, the Moon signifies you and Jupiter signifies the Job.

I can see that you have issues with the dignities, so try putting them aside for the moment and simply express what you see. Then try to add in say the essential dignities or some of the accidental ones but not both at the same time. As you get more and more used to it, you can begin to do both at the same time.

Now my eyesight isn't as good as it used to be, so I have some difficulty reading the small print on your chart. It would help me if you could post the key information - time, date and place and I can duplicate the chart.

However you're right to treat the Moon's house placement as being a poor one and yes you're right, being inconjunct the eighth house is one of the 'out of the way' places. So you will have some difficulty getting noticed by prospective employers - such as writing lots of job applications but either getting no or only a few interviews, You also correctly identify that the Moon is under the beams, which adds to that inability to be seen, However it's nearly out from under the beams so things are improving It's fast - a good sign and it's increasing in light - all of those suggest that things will get better than they are now.

In Aquarius the Moon has dignity only in the last 10 degrees and then only by Face (Decan). You are quite right she has no essential dignity at 19 degrees Aquarius. This is the first and most important reason you use the table - to determine if the Moon has any essential dignity and if so, how much.

I'll deal with your question about what use the Triplicity, Terms and Face rulers are, when I've commented on Jupiter.

You're right Jupiter is without essential dignity either - this suggests that the job may either not carry much seniority in the organisation or may be one requiring only basic skills. As your key criteria are that it's desired by you and well paid, so things don't look very promising in that respect. However the accidental dignities suggest that the job is well placed in the eleventh house, which is your house of hopes and aspirations, so that's some evidence that you might want the job (of course it might simply mean you want 'a' job. The eleventh is a good placement so the job might be convenient or reasonably prominent. The other accidental dignities reinforce this conclusion - the job does have attractions, even if it is a basic one. The weakness in essential dignity might alternatively mean that the company offering the job is not strong, so even if the job appears desirable it might not be long lasting.

OK back to essential dignities and that table. :(

Try confining yourself to seeing if the planet as any essential dignity of it's own, that is it appears in one of the columns for that sign. Of course allow for it being either a day chart or night chart if it is one of the triplicity rulers and ensure that it is in the right degree if it is in the Terms or Face columns. The more points it has (Ruler=5, Exaltation-4, Triplcity=3, Terms=2, Face=1) the better, A planet can be in more than one of it's dignities in a sign, so if it has two or more then add the scores together. The higher the score the stronger it is.

For the moment ignore those entries where your planet does not occur. So for the Moon you can ignore all of the planets that do have dignity. You can add those into your interpretations when you feel happy using the essential dignity of the planets that are significators and the accidental dignities of those planets.

For the accidental dignities place most value on the House placement, then whether it is combust/under the beams and then direct or retrograde. Finally check for close aspects to Venus and Jupiter by trine or sextile and Mars or Saturn by square of opposition.. You can add in the oriental/occidental later on - BTW you were right with Jupiter being oriental.

Add the accidental scores together to get an impression of how well placed the planet is to act or if it signifies something impersonal, to be the subject of action. The high accidental dignity of Jupiter suggests that even if the job is not as intrinsically as good as you would want there are a lot of people out there who would want it if they had the chance - it's an employers' market.

So far we've looked at the planets in so far as they describe the situation. Tomorrow I'll post again on the likely outcome of that matter. I hope you will have been able to post the chart details by then. It will allow me to do some fine checking LOL

Actually you did very well there - you identified the correct significators and you gathered the right information. The issues are ones of interepretation - how do you use it? Basically you are using it to assess how strong or otherwise you are as a candidated for a job and how good the job is and - how well placed you are to take advantage of job opportunities and how 'desirable' the job is. Here you're in rather a weak position in the labour market and the job may not be as good as you hoped but it will be attractive to those seeking work.

Lee
25-01-2012, 09:26
I don't have time at the moment to read the today's posts so far (today I'm actually busy, go figure). I must say it's a bit disconcerting to see my life discussed so clinically, LOL! I'm just kidding, I'm happy to help supply an example for learning purposes.

I should say a bit more about my work situation. Basically I provide services to litigation attorneys. (Minderwiz will be interested to know that my work involves computers and communication, and in fact I can't imagine a more Mercury-like profession.) Myself and everyone who does my kind of work are independent contractors. When attorneys need the service, they call an agency, and the agency has regular contractors like me who they assign the work to, and I go to the law firms and perform the service. The agency bills the attorneys for my services. When the attorneys pay the bill, the agency gives me a percentage and keeps the rest for their overhead and profit.

So it really isn't that I sell my services to the agency. It would be more accurate to say that the agency sells my services to the attorneys (the ultimate clients).

Regarding which house to use, it could go either way. I immediately thought of the 10th house because although I am self-employed and the agency is only an agency, it so happens that I feel as if they were my employer. The agency's principals aren't friends of mine but we have high regard for each other. They trust me to do a good job for them, and I trust them to treat me right, which they do (at least as far as I know). I've known them since they were teenagers. We have been loyal to each other. Our relationship is based on mutual economic interest, but I feel kindly towards them and I would certainly like to think they feel the same towards me. So my relationship with them feels more like a trusted employer/employee relationship than an agent relationship.

On the other hand, Astraea is certainly correct that technically and legally they're an agency who hires me as an independent contractor and not an employer.

So I'm gathering that the assignment of houses sort of a subjective art. Are there specific guidelines for a case like this where we have a technical truth and and emotional truth that may disagree?

Astraea
25-01-2012, 09:40
...I'm happy to help supply an example for learning purposes.
Lee, yours is an excellent chart for learning purposes. It's got everything! It's radical, it contains a reception, it's got peregrination and retrogradation and interference, it's got options among houses and viewpoints, it is dynamic, and it's as clear as the situation right now allows. Your work sounds very interesting and I know you are super at it. I hope the agency is able to continue, and you with it! Or that something even better will come along.

Ronia
25-01-2012, 17:30
Minderwiz, the chart was cast on January 24, in Sofia, Bulgaria at 15:53.

My problem with these dignities is I don't know how to use them to tell all these things - what my situation is, what the job is... Just how to apply them. And with triplicities I don't understand anything. :(

Minderwiz
25-01-2012, 20:05
I don't have time at the moment to read the today's posts so far (today I'm actually busy, go figure). I must say it's a bit disconcerting to see my life discussed so clinically, LOL! I'm just kidding, I'm happy to help supply an example for learning purposes.

I should say a bit more about my work situation. Basically I provide services to litigation attorneys. (Minderwiz will be interested to know that my work involves computers and communication, and in fact I can't imagine a more Mercury-like profession.) Myself and everyone who does my kind of work are independent contractors. When attorneys need the service, they call an agency, and the agency has regular contractors like me who they assign the work to, and I go to the law firms and perform the service. The agency bills the attorneys for my services. When the attorneys pay the bill, the agency gives me a percentage and keeps the rest for their overhead and profit.

So it really isn't that I sell my services to the agency. It would be more accurate to say that the agency sells my services to the attorneys (the ultimate clients).

Regarding which house to use, it could go either way. I immediately thought of the 10th house because although I am self-employed and the agency is only an agency, it so happens that I feel as if they were my employer. The agency's principals aren't friends of mine but we have high regard for each other. They trust me to do a good job for them, and I trust them to treat me right, which they do (at least as far as I know). I've known them since they were teenagers. We have been loyal to each other. Our relationship is based on mutual economic interest, but I feel kindly towards them and I would certainly like to think they feel the same towards me. So my relationship with them feels more like a trusted employer/employee relationship than an agent relationship.

On the other hand, Astraea is certainly correct that technically and legally they're an agency who hires me as an independent contractor and not an employer.

So I'm gathering that the assignment of houses sort of a subjective art. Are there specific guidelines for a case like this where we have a technical truth and and emotional truth that may disagree?

Thanks for the info Lee and I gather that you have now got work!!

Yes there's some subjectivity but I would say mainly on the part of the querent. Looking at your description of what you actually do, it appears to be a classic agent releationship, at least in law. In that case the Law firms would get the seventh as the buyer of your services, and the agency would get the sixth which is ruled by Jupiter. Now if you hadn't mentioned your feelings to the agency or described them as your employer in the question, this is the arrangement I would have used based on your desciption of your work.

However my feelings are that what matters is the querent's feelings about their situation, not the legal arrangement. If you habitually think of the agency as your employer then you have put yourself in a tenth house relationship to them and the houses, as you assigned them were correct.

If the agency used your services, if and when they needed them but all your dealings were with them, not the Law Firm, then the agency becomes the seventh House buyer of your services, and of course if you saw yourself as selling your services to them.l

So based on your feelings, I'd go for the tenth House relationship and say that it's likely based on the chart that a client or friend of the agency is represented by Mercury and they will bring the agency to your money - the Sun. I don't think this is as weak as Astraea does because there is both mutual reception by exaltation and that partile trine. The conclusion though only holds for the 2 week period, whether circumstances improve or decline after that is another matter, though I agree with Astraea that the Horary shows current trends.

Now if on reflection you feel that you got the relationship with the agency wrong, then we can revisit it but I don't think much will substantially change. The Law firm becomes the seventh House and it is not in a bad situation at the moment - Saturn is in exaltation and the Moon will aspect Saturn (ignoring the previous aspect to the South Node) so that would suggest some work will come. Again though there are some concerns that the situation is not as good as it could be and certainly with the Moon being Peregrine, you are very much at the mercy of others.

Minderwiz
25-01-2012, 20:07
Minderwiz, the chart was cast on January 24, in Sofia, Bulgaria at 15:53.

My problem with these dignities is I don't know how to use them to tell all these things - what my situation is, what the job is... Just how to apply them. And with triplicities I don't understand anything. :(

Thanks Ronia. I'll cast the chart and come back later with a full reading so you can see how things slot together.

Minderwiz
26-01-2012, 02:11
Iv;'e attached two files, Ronia Horary is the chart (which of course you already have) anr Ronia Horary Alm is the essential dignities as produced by Morinus and I'll cross reference those to the table.

As already stated by you, your significator is the Moon in Aquarius and the job/career is a tenth House matter and with Pisces on the MC, it's significator is Jupiter.

The Moon in Aquarius has no essential dignity - it's Peregrine' We can tell that from the Morinus chart because there is no entry in the cell where the Moon's row and the Moon's column intersect. For ease of recognition, I've written 'Peregrine' in that cell. The word comes from the Latin for traveller or stranger, foreigner or pilgrim. It's someone who is not at home where they find themselves and are dependent on others to get by in their strange surroundings. In other words peregrine planets rarely have the capcity to perform successfully, they usually need help. That help may come from one of the planets that has dignity in the place of the Moon. That is Saturn the sign ruler and triplcitiy lord. You can tell Saturn has these roles because in the Moon's row and in the Saturn column there is the score of 5 (ruler) + 3 (triplicity lord). In other words Saturn is the big cheese in Aquarius and can help to get things done for the Moon (assuming he is willing). In the Skyscript table of essential dignities, look up Aquarius and you will find Saturn in the ruler column and Saturn as the triplicity ruler by Day.

There is no exaltation ruler for Aquarius but there is a Lord for the Terms, The Moon finds herself in the Terms of Jupiter, who just happens to be the significator of the job - so it's possible the company itself might help you - again though if they are willing. Finally the Moon is in the Face of Mercury and as Face is only one step better on than being Peregrine, it's unlikely that Mercury will be of any real help, unless it is itself very strong and in willing to help.

There's a lot of 'willings' there, so the obvious question is how do we know the planet might be willing to help. There will be a favourable aspect from them that that links the Moon (you) to the Job (Jupiter).

The accidental dignities of the Moon you identified very well and you got the main point - the Moon is under the beams in the eighth - a very good indication that you will have real difficulty getting noticed in the job market. The only partial good news is that it will shortly emerge from the beams, so we would not score the whole -4 and it is fast and gaining in light. Things are currently not at all good but there will be at least a little improvement in the future.

Now Jupiter, which is also peregrine. Now the job is inanimate but the person or company hiring is not, so it probably means that they will need help to find you - that might mean that you should circulate your CV or indeed ensure that your CV is up to date and presented in the way that firms in Bulgaria want to see. That may or may not be the same as it was in the US. So help to you and help to the employer might be through you having your CV checked, many employment agencies will do that, but you may find independent consultants that will help.

Jupiter is in Taurus, the sign of Venus, and the Moon is the exaltation ruler in Taurus. So now things have changed. The Moon is in the Terms of Jupiter and Jupiter is in the Exaltation of the Moon. We have a mutual reception, though not a particularly strong one, but you might actually be have particular skills that the employer thinks important and 'exalt' - This might be simply being fluent in English and having real local knowledge of the US, which might be of great use to an exporter or a tourist company or even a translation company. Those are of course not the only options but they are a few obvious ones.

Now we are in a situation where you both need some help but are able to supply it to each other. So in the situation of a mutual reception, are the Moon and Jupiter still peregrine? There's some discussion over this, even if we say they are not peregrine there is an argument that two weak planets being in mutual reception cannot suddenly become strong. Dykes argues that being a stranger or traveller, doesn't mean you are weak, it means that you don't know the system and how things operate. If you find someone who can help you with the system, you can still achieve and perform well. Similarly a planet in mutual reception with another both of who may indicate people who might not achieve separately but who together might actually have to complementary skills to achieve. I tend to go with that view, so I think you have something going for you in the Bulgarian labour market, an ability which you might not rate, but which others do.

Now Jupiter is also well placed in the chart, as you identified. It's on the eleventh cusp, so it might be the job that you hope for or it may be that your friends lead you to it. Being Direct and free from the Sun's beams means this employer may well be quite dynamic. Jupiter's speed is neither fast nor slow, so there's no gain or loss there.

OK so we have the basic description of you and the company in terms of the potential job, the next question is 'will it happen?'

The first thing we look at is if a major aspect will form between the Moon and Jupiter. There is a sextile forming, and the Moon is already applying to it. But before it can perfect the aspect the Moon trines Saturn in Libra. Saturn is in an out of sign opposition to Jupiter. So Saturn will actually 'prohibit' the aspect by being in the way (it gets the Moon's aspect first). What does that mean in people terms? There are a variety of possible meanings, but they are all likely to involve you in either seeking help from somebody who ends up actually doing more harm than good or someone in a powerful position (relative to the situation) either deliberately or inadvertently spoils things. Now there might have been a chance if Jupiter was applying to the opposition (even though oppositions almost never produce the result) but in this case the opposition has passed.

The next possibility is a connection through antiscia. Neither planet is near the antisicon of the other, so no connection there.

Finally we look for a helpful third party. We've ruled Saturn out because of the prohibition and the opposition to Jupiter. Mars has just turned retrograde and is not in any dignity of the Moon, or Jupiter and makes no helpful aspect to either of them. The Sun signifies your income, as it rules the second house but it's not making an applying aspect to Jupiter (it's in a separating square) or to Venus ruler of the eleventh and also the House of the employer's money.

Venus is not aspecting any planet and Mercury, the Term ruler for the Moon, and is in an applying conjunction with the Sun has no aspect either to Jupiter or to Venus (the employer's money) There does not seem to be a candidate to help you out here.

Lilly allows the matter to be perfected by a mutual reception but he was talking about one which was ruler to ruler - say Moon in Pisces and Jupiter in Cancer. Here we have Moon in the terms of Jupiter, though Jupiter is in the exaltation of the Moon. There may be an outside chance but I don't really see that happening unless the job is desperate for your skills no matter what.

Now I think your time limit of virtually the entire year is too long for this question - you would have been better to have stipulated two or three months at most. as there is much you can work on to improve your 'essential dignity' - i.e. ensure that you are marketing the skills employers want and you are happy to apply.

In this horary the 'job' would have found you much more attractive than you found it - it wouldn't be awful or anything but it would not be your prime choice - Jupiter is only the Terms ruler for the Moon but that work on marketing yourself may land you the job that you really do want.

I think there's a lot of promise here, even though it doesn't deliver immediately. Work on your marketability as a job candidate, begin to identify companies, roles and geographical that you see as desirable and ask again in a month or two. The message of this Horary is start getting that preparation done for your real launch onto the job market.

Ronia
27-01-2012, 01:23
Thanks, MInderwiz. From all written, I think I better give up horary all together. I can't see how things fall into places, it apparently requires far more knowledge and interpretation than I have the ability for.

There are some things that may be true in another way though. Peregrine sounds much like me - I'm not willing to be stuck anywhere. Who knows, may be I'll move again and this will change the situation all together. I chose a longer term because previous times I chose shorter terms and the answers were so negative but it seems the longer term doesn't help much. Too bad. Seems like a third jobless year may be starting. I wish I had asked another question. Thanks for the help.

I just wanted to know about the mutual reception - what if Venus is in Pisces and Jupiter is in Taurus (both are significators), does it mean such reception would allow perfection even if they don't form an aspect? Is that what is meant by "rulers" in mutual reception?

And the second thing - the transition of light, does it require the Moon (for example) to not have any other aspect before it aspects the second significator?

SilentBreeze
27-01-2012, 02:25
Now that I've had time to read through this, some more newbie questions?

It seems like there's this unlimited amount things you can check after you go through the basic essential and accidental dignities. So how do you figure out which ones to use? Is there like a list of the ones. For example, in the beginning you mention the Antiscia, how do you know it that's something you can check for a question? Also how do you know how important each of those things is to a question and which one of those hold more weight in a question?

Also some chart questions..How do you figure out if a planet is retrograde, or about to go retrograde? How do you know if the mood is void of course on the chart? How do you know where a planet will end up or how a chart is changing over time?

Also this question may come more from reading the glossary, but it was mentioned in a reading as well. If a planet is in conjunction with the sun, in what cases is the aspect considered positive or negative?

Minderwiz
27-01-2012, 07:18
Thanks, MInderwiz. From all written, I think I better give up horary all together. I can't see how things fall into places, it apparently requires far more knowledge and interpretation than I have the ability for.

It's not really more difficult than Tarot reading, in that the trick is to relate the significators to the question asked but clearly there is a learning curve to begin with - perseverance will get you there and you identified much of the key astrological information in the first place. Take it in small steps and don't expect to be able to do everything at once


There are some things that may be true in another way though. Peregrine sounds much like me - I'm not willing to be stuck anywhere. Who knows, may be I'll move again and this will change the situation all together. I chose a longer term because previous times I chose shorter terms and the answers were so negative but it seems the longer term doesn't help much. Too bad. Seems like a third jobless year may be starting. I wish I had asked another question. Thanks for the help.

I think three months would have been a comfortable period for the question and as you're using it as a learning exercise I don't think you have to conclude that you're not going to get a job for the rest of the year. I actually think the horary showed some promise It also gives you some things to think about, in preparation for your entry into the job market. I don't see this horary holding for the whole year, unless you want it to. There are things you can begin to work on to improve matters.


I just wanted to know about the mutual reception - what if Venus is in Pisces and Jupiter is in Taurus (both are significators), does it mean such reception would allow perfection even if they don't form an aspect? Is that what is meant by "rulers" in mutual reception?

And the second thing - the transition of light, does it require the Moon (for example) to not have any other aspect before it aspects the second significator?

Yes, you are right on both counts. Lilly sees a mutual reception by sign as a clear indicator of a successful outcome. I don't see any reason why the same should not apply to a mutual reception by exaltation, though I would prefer to see an aspect there as well (as in Lee's horary). Below that level of dignity I would definitely want to see the aspect between the significators. I would then be very happy to predict a successful outcome.

For translation of light a faster planet must in turn aspect one significator and then go on to aspect the other, without any intervening aspects to other planets. If there is such an intervening aspect, the matter is 'prohibited' by that intervening aspect. In simple terms, if a third planet gets in the way of the Moon translating the light from significator 1 to significator 2 then then matter will not work out.

It seems to me that you have a reasonable grip of mutual reception and translation of light, simply by asking those two particular questions - don't be so pessimistic about your own skills and ability - I think you have as good a grasp as I would expect at this stage, probably better!

Minderwiz
27-01-2012, 08:16
Now that I've had time to read through this, some more newbie questions?

It seems like there's this unlimited amount things you can check after you go through the basic essential and accidental dignities. So how do you figure out which ones to use? Is there like a list of the ones. For example, in the beginning you mention the Antiscia, how do you know it that's something you can check for a question? Also how do you know how important each of those things is to a question and which one of those hold more weight in a question?

Yes there's a lot of possible techniques that might be used. To keep matters under control I proceed as follows, after I have evaluated the essental and accidental dignities.

1. I check for an applying between the significators. If so this is a large testimony and if the significators have at least some dignity then the matter will work out and I don't need to go any further.

2 If there's no applying aspect then I check the antisicia. If there is a connection through antisica then the matter will work out and there's no need to go any further.

3. If there's no connection in 1 or 2 then I check for translation of light or collection of light if there is then the matter will work out

4 If none of the above then the matter is unlikely to work out.

That's a brief scheme but it is essentially what to do.



Also some chart questions..How do you figure out if a planet is retrograde, or about to go retrograde? How do you know if the mood is void of course on the chart? How do you know where a planet will end up or how a chart is changing over time?

Also this question may come more from reading the glossary, but it was mentioned in a reading as well. If a planet is in conjunction with the sun, in what cases is the aspect considered positive or negative?

Every software program or astro.com that produces charts marks retrograde planets as Rx. This is usually written alongside the planet and it's zodiacal degree

Knowing if the planet is about to station is a bit more difficult you can consult an online ephemeris (astro.com has one) or if you have Morinus you can check the planet's speed, as planets about to station are moving very slowly. Morinus also has a graphical ephemeris that you can use, though I don't find it wonderfully helpful.

Some programs tell you if the Moon is VOC but they don't all use the same definition. I do a visual check which I explained earlier in this thread in response to one of Ronia's questions - If the Moon is 18 degrees of the sign or less then check if there's a panet in any greater degree of that sign than the Moon, if so then the Moon is not VOC Then go through all the signs that are sextile, square, trine or in opposition to the Moon's sign and if there's a planet in any one of the in a greater degree than the Moon then the Moon is not VOC. If you don't find a planet then the Moon is VOC.

Things are a little more complicated if the Moon is in 19 degrees onwards In this case it's orb extends beyond the sign boundary, so you will have to include adjacent signs in your search. So if the Moon were at 25 degrees of a sign, it's orb will extend to 7 degrees of the next sign. If there's a planet between 0 degrees and 7 degrees of the sign then the Moon is not VOC Remember to check the other signs that are in major aspect to that degree. I'll put a full version into the glossary.

I will only bother with planetary movement if it's the Moon or if a planet is at 29 degrees and direct or 0 degrees and Retrograde In that case the planet is about to change signs and this suggests that something relating to the question is about to change. That change is not necessarily for the better, nor is it necessarily sufficient to secure, or even prevent the desired outome, unless there are several other indicators that change is coming and pointing to the same sort of change - for example a planet near a house cusp.

The conjunction with the Sun is generally undesirable because the planet is obscured, however at the moment of exact conjunction +/- 17 minutes, the planet gains strength and is a very positive situation.

Ronia
27-01-2012, 17:42
Yes, you are right on both counts. Lilly sees a mutual reception by sign as a clear indicator of a successful outcome. I don't see any reason why the same should not apply to a mutual reception by exaltation, though I would prefer to see an aspect there as well (as in Lee's horary). Below that level of dignity I would definitely want to see the aspect between the significators. I would then be very happy to predict a successful outcome.

For translation of light a faster planet must in turn aspect one significator and then go on to aspect the other, without any intervening aspects to other planets. If there is such an intervening aspect, the matter is 'prohibited' by that intervening aspect. In simple terms, if a third planet gets in the way of the Moon translating the light from significator 1 to significator 2 then then matter will not work out.

It seems to me that you have a reasonable grip of mutual reception and translation of light, simply by asking those two particular questions - don't be so pessimistic about your own skills and ability - I think you have as good a grasp as I would expect at this stage, probably better!

Тhanks for the kind words, I guess the long unemployment got the best of me. I'll try to see the positive side.

I was asking these questions because a friend of mine cast a chart on relationship for herself and it was the first chart where I saw such mutual reception - she is initially signified by the Sun, the man by Jupiter but as they didn't have any connection, I went further to check if Venus (for her) made an aspect and then I realized exalted Venus was in Pisces while Jupiter was in Taurus. And then I wondered if that was a good sign for my friend starting this relationship. Unfortunately, no other aspects (all will be intervened by other planets), so this was the only ray of light. Oh, they are also in each other's terms I just realized. Quite interesting, for me, as I have never seen it before. :)

SilentBreeze
28-01-2012, 01:14
Thanks Minderwitz for the answers. I did a reading for a friend that I will put up later. Another employment one, guess that's what's on everyone's mind.

queen_of_wands
28-01-2012, 03:24
Is this thread still going? I am excited to try this out!

Minderwiz
28-01-2012, 07:06
Yes, it is and I'm really looking to do another reading, so if you have a question you are most welcome to post it. You can either just post the question and I'll do the reading or you can have a read through the first few posts and then try casting your own chart and posting that, with your initial thoughts. As said at the beginning you can do as much or as little as you like

queen_of_wands
28-01-2012, 07:51
I would like to try both, if you'd like to do my reading and post it, then i can use my chart to see how you got there, I already have my chart at astro.com. I posted it below in case it helps.

I have a couple of questions, I guess the most important one is what will March first be like for me? I have a competition, and I'd like to know how well I am going to place? Thank you.

Planetary positionsplanet sign degree motion

Sun Virgo 27°46'53 in house 5 direct
Moon Scorpio 12°14'42 in house 6 direct
Mercury Libra 17°22'24 in house 6 retrograde
Venus Virgo 16°21'06 in house 5 direct
Mars Sagittarius 0°42'44 in house 7 direct
Jupiter Scorpio 9°38'55 in house 6 direct
Saturn Libra 21°51'08 in house 6 direct
Uranus Sagittarius 1°20'50 in house 7 direct
Neptune Sagittarius 24°20'11 in house 8 direct
Pluto Libra 25°42'45 in house 6 direct
True Node Cancer 9°47'03 end of house 2 retrograde
Planets at the end of a house are interpreted in the next house.

House positions (Placidus)Ascendant Taurus 22°01'25
2nd House Gemini 18°26'03
3rd House Cancer 9°49'02
Imum Coeli Leo 1°35'45
5th House Leo 28°18'00
6th House Libra 5°29'11
Descendant Scorpio 22°01'25
8th House Sagittarius 18°26'03
9th House Capricorn 9°49'02
Medium Coeli Aquarius 1°35'45
11th House Aquarius 28°18'00
12th House Aries 5°29'11

queen_of_wands
28-01-2012, 07:56
I would like to try both, if you'd like to do my reading and post it, then i can use my chart to see how you got there, I already have my chart at astro.com. I posted it below in case it helps.

I have a couple of questions, I guess the most important one is what will March first be like for me? I have a competition, and I'd like to know how well I am going to place? Thank you.

Planetary positionsplanet sign degree motion

Sun Virgo 27°46'53 in house 5 direct
Moon Scorpio 12°14'42 in house 6 direct
Mercury Libra 17°22'24 in house 6 retrograde
Venus Virgo 16°21'06 in house 5 direct
Mars Sagittarius 0°42'44 in house 7 direct
Jupiter Scorpio 9°38'55 in house 6 direct
Saturn Libra 21°51'08 in house 6 direct
Uranus Sagittarius 1°20'50 in house 7 direct
Neptune Sagittarius 24°20'11 in house 8 direct
Pluto Libra 25°42'45 in house 6 direct
True Node Cancer 9°47'03 end of house 2 retrograde
Planets at the end of a house are interpreted in the next house.

House positions (Placidus)Ascendant Taurus 22°01'25
2nd House Gemini 18°26'03
3rd House Cancer 9°49'02
Imum Coeli Leo 1°35'45
5th House Leo 28°18'00
6th House Libra 5°29'11
Descendant Scorpio 22°01'25
8th House Sagittarius 18°26'03
9th House Capricorn 9°49'02
Medium Coeli Aquarius 1°35'45
11th House Aquarius 28°18'00
12th House Aries 5°29'11

eh, I used where I was born, I suppose for the question, i have read i am supposed to use the place where I am at now.

queen_of_wands
28-01-2012, 08:06
I am not sure if I did this right:

I used: http://www.astro.com/cgi/atxgen.cgi?btyp=apx;cid=mobile-jxbfilekWPC6H-u1270573997;go.x=16;go.y=8&lang=e&nhor=2

to come up with this reading:

I will have success, but there will be a toll on my health. I will overcome the obstacles and should really focus on the people that I meet at the event, because the contacts will be important in the future.

Minderwiz
28-01-2012, 08:30
I am not sure if I did this right:

I used: http://www.astro.com/cgi/atxgen.cgi?btyp=apx;cid=mobile-jxbfilekWPC6H-u1270573997;go.x=16;go.y=8&lang=e&nhor=2

to come up with this reading:

I will have success, but there will be a toll on my health. I will overcome the obstacles and should really focus on the people that I meet at the event, because the contacts will be important in the future.

Can I ask what the question was

Lee
28-01-2012, 09:32
Hi Astraea! I finally have some time to catch up on this thread, and I had a few questions about your post.
here, Saturn teeters on the brink of Scorpio - where he, too, will become peregrine.
How can I tell here that Saturn will be peregrine in Scorpio?
If we view the agency as a 7th house entity - which I am inclined to do, since the 7th concerns agents in general
Might it make a difference that the agency in my situation isn't a single person, but a company? Can the 7th house represent a company, or only individuals?

Thanks for the input Astraea, a lot of it went right over my head, but it was still enjoyable for me to try and puzzle it through, despite the gloomy outlook! :D

EDITED TO ADD: I deleted two of my questions when I read Minderwiz's subsequent post which explained them.

Lee
28-01-2012, 10:02
I think I'm ready to post a new chart, and I intend to try interpreting it as well. However, I have an initial question about the significators, so I'll ask that first before posting the chart.

The question will be: Is my brother alive?

I thought this would be an interesting question because it allows us to deal with a somewhat edgy topic (life/death of a close family member) but without having to worry about the answer's emotional effect on the querent (me). I obviously have an interest in the answer, but I don't feel emotionally closely connected to it. The circumstances are these: About 35 years ago, my brother (five years my senior), who had mental health issues, vanished at age 21. He took his clothes with him, so clearly his leaving was voluntary. Because of his condition (clinically diagnosed schizophrenia), living with him was impossible, and perhaps he sensed that. No one in my family has seen or heard from him since.

Because of the difficult family situation, I was not close with him and in fact was rather relieved when he vanished. Our family doctor told my mother that he felt it was unlikely that my brother would live very long because of other health problems. But who knows? In any event, an answer one way or another won't upset me.

However, I'm at a loss in terms of significators. I'm the querent so I get the first house. But what house represents the quesited? A more basic question would be, who/what is the quesited for this question? Is it my brother (third house)? I think that would be a little sticky, because wouldn't a major aspect between me and my brother suggest an interaction between us? The problem with that is that I have no desire for any interaction, so in this particular case, interaction would be a negative thing. Would it be better to turn the chart and use derived houses?

Astraea
28-01-2012, 10:03
Hi Lee. I haven't mastered multiple quotes, so I'll just answer your questions in order.

One discovers when a planet will become direct, retrograde or stationary by looking in the ephemeris - a chart only shows the planet's status as of a particular moment in time, whereas that can change within a few hours. This is why Frawley and others insist that one actually look at an ephemeris before making judgements about aspects (which might not actually reach perfection, regardless of what seems to be indicated in the chart).

When Saturn leaves Libra, he will enter the next sign in the orderly progression of the zodiac - Scorpio - where he does not enjoy any dignities. One can determine this by looking at a table of planetary dignities and debilities, such as this one: http://www.skyscript.co.uk/essential_dignities.html. Run your eyes down the left-hand side of the diagram, and when you reach the symbol for Scorpio, read across the line - you won't find Saturn listed for any of the major dignities (i.e. sign rulership, triplicity rulership, or exaltation). Not enjoying any dignity in Scorpio, he is said to be peregrine.

Saturn's period of retrogradation - like Mars' - is determined by looking at the ephemeris. Whenever a planet turns retrograde, this is indicated in the ephemeris by the letter "R" next to its degree notation. When the planet goes direct, the R no longer appears in the degree column. For a few days before and after a planet changes direction, it is said to be stationary - moving very slowly in preparation for making its apparent turn.

Yes, a company is an entity and, as such, can be referred to the 7th house. However, since you clarified your own views on the agency (in one your last posts), it seems to be a 10th house matter for you - and that is what counts. So my gloomy prognostication might not pan out, and I hope it doesn't! :D

Lee
28-01-2012, 10:10
Thanks Astraea! Clearly obtaining an ephemeris is a high priority. Although I do have software which will allow me to create a text ephemeris on the screen, if I can figure out how to do it.

Astraea
28-01-2012, 10:39
I'm the querent so I get the first house. But what house represents the quesited? A more basic question would be, who/what is the quesited for this question? Is it my brother (third house)?
As the querent, you get the first house, and your brother gets the third (brothers and sisters). House signification is determined by the subject of the question - and this is clearly a third-house sibling relationship. BUT...if I were you, yes, I would turn the chart and place the third house cusp on the Ascendant, because you want to know the status of your brother's viability and health; you are not asking whether or not you will reeastablish ties with him.

In the unturned chart, an applying aspect between your significator and the lord of the third house might show the possibility of a reconnection with your brother if you desired one, but the actual status of your brother would be indicated by the condition of the ruler of the third house and any planets therein, in combination with aspects to planets signifying the viability of your brother (hence the value of turning the chart).

There is a very nice on-line ephemeris here: http://www.khaldea.com/ephemcenter.shtml
Scroll down the page until you come to the year you want, click on it, and a one-month ephemeris will appear. You will find all the months of that year listed horizontally at the top of the ephemeris, and all you have to do is click on the one you want to see. Retrograde periods are shown in red, which is very convenient.

queen_of_wands
28-01-2012, 11:13
Can I ask what the question was

I wantedto know what March 1 would be like, I have a competition, and I'd like to know how well I am going to place? Thank you.

Lee
29-01-2012, 02:14
Thanks Astraea, that on-line ephemeris is very helpful.

Astraea's advice on turning the chart sounds like good advice, however since Minderwiz hasn't yet really delved into turned charts/derived houses, and I'm a bit fearful of stepping into the unknown and finding myself with nothing to stand on. So I've decided to keep it simple and keep the chart unturned for now. After I feel more advanced, I'll certainly revisit this chart and try it the other way.

So the question is: Is my brother alive?

The chart info: January 26, 2012, 2:18 a.m., Bethesda, Maryland, 77 degrees 06 W, 38 degrees 58 N, -5 GMT.

For completeness, I'll repeat what I posted about the background of the question:
I thought this would be an interesting question because it allows us to deal with a somewhat edgy topic (life/death of a close family member) but without having to worry about the answer's emotional effect on the querent (me). I obviously have an interest in the answer, but I don't feel emotionally closely connected to it. The circumstances are these: About 35 years ago, my brother (five years my senior), who had mental health issues, vanished at age 21. He took his clothes with him, so clearly his leaving was voluntary. Because of his condition (clinically diagnosed schizophrenia), living with him was impossible, and perhaps he sensed that. No one in my family has seen or heard from him since.

Because of the difficult family situation, I was not close with him and in fact was rather relieved when he vanished. Our family doctor told my mother that he felt it was unlikely that my brother would live very long because of other health problems. But who knows? In any event, an answer one way or another won't upset me.
Now on to interpretation. How exciting -- I feel like I'm on a roller coaster, about to plunge downward... :)

Is the Moon Void of Course? No -- the Moon in Pisces will soon conjunct Venus in Pisces.

Significators:
Ascendant is in Scorpio so my significator is Mars in Virgo in 10th House.
Third House cusp is in Capricorn so my brother's significator is Saturn in Libra in 11th House.

Condition of each significator:
Mars: Peregrine (-5). 10th House (+5). Retrograde (-5). Slow (-2). Total -7.

Saturn: Exaltation (+4). 11th House (+4). Slow (-2). Total +6.

No mutual receptions.

No major aspects between significators (they are in adjacent signs).

No antiscia connections between significators.

There is an applying sextile between the Moon and Jupiter.

Judgement:
No connections between significators indicates no contact between us. (Not a surprise, contact was very unlikely whether he is alive or not.) The applying sextile between Moon and Jupiter seems somewhat ambiguous for this particular question -- it suggests emotional fulfillment, but for whom? All things considered, when looked at objectively, I would rather he were alive than not, so I'm going to assume this aspect points towards living, combined with the relative strength of his significator.

However, does Jupiter's (in the 6th House of illness) sextile with the Moon mean that the aspect is benefic in the sense that there is less illness (thus a net postive) , or in the sense that the illness is stronger?

Now, I'm going to go out on a limb and do a single derived house. The question specifically wants to know about death, so I'm going to look at the 8th house (death) from the 3rd (sibling). That would be the 10th. Ruler of 10th is Mercury, which is in Capricorn in the 3rd house.

So Mercury, here the ruler of death, is in the 3rd House of my brother. Also there is a separating square between Mercury (ruler of death) and Saturn (my brother's significator). Perhaps indicating recently deceased?

Well, that's as far as I'll go for now. My brother seems well-placed (certainly better-placed than my significator -- perhaps he is more alive than I am? :bugeyed:) but with the derived house it looks bad.

I'm looking forward to learning what mistakes I've made -- the best way to learn!

Edited to add: Forgot to attach chart.

Minderwiz
29-01-2012, 05:46
I wantedto know what March 1 would be like, I have a competition, and I'd like to know how well I am going to place? Thank you.

Thanks for that and sorry for the delay in getting back to you - Today has been rather busy to say the least!!

Looking at your link to astro.com the data appears to be for the time and place of your birth, rather than the time and place that you asked the question. Horary is independent of your birth details it is based solely on the time that you felt strongly enough about a matter to ask the question. It's a bit like someone coming to you for a Tarot reading, your not concerned with what the cards were like when they were born, but the cards here and now for the burning question that has brought them in for a reading.

Sadly the non-natal part of Astrology has dwindled a lot, so much so that people associate Astrology solely with their birth sign and details. As you said in one of your previous posts, you would like to try both me, and your own reading. So I'll leave that still as a possibility but I'll get on with doing a reading for you.

I suggest a good question would be, 'How well will I perform in the competition on March 1?' as a starting point.

Now I'm going to make an assumption here, which I'd like you to come back on. The assumption is that there's more than you and one other competitor - it's not one singly one to one match. Rather I'm assuming that you may be involved in more than one match or have to play against several others. If I'm wrong here please get back to me.

I'll do the chart straight away and begin posting tomorrow (local time).

Minderwiz
29-01-2012, 06:01
Thanks Astraea, that on-line ephemeris is very helpful.

Astraea's advice on turning the chart sounds like good advice, however since Minderwiz hasn't yet really delved into turned charts/derived houses, and I'm a bit fearful of stepping into the unknown and finding myself with nothing to stand on. So I've decided to keep it simple and keep the chart unturned for now. After I feel more advanced, I'll certainly revisit this chart and try it the other way.

Lee there's no need to wait for me, if you feel it's something you'd like to try :)

If you are just concerned about your brother's well being and state of health, there's no need to turn the chart. As Astraea points out the condition and placement of Lord 3 will given you a very good guide to that.

Indeed I would only turn the chart if you were asking a supplementary question. For example if the condition of Lord 3 was such that ill health was indicated, then you might possibly look at the sixth house from the third, to learn more about the disease.

I used to do a lot of chart turning at one stage but now I only turn a chart if it's absolutely necessary. If you asked Will my brother marry his fiancee?' I'd first ascertain that you had no desires on the young lady :) and if I were convinced that your interest was solely with your brother, then I'd give him the first and the fiancee the seventh. It would be a chart in which you played no significant role. If you did have designs on the young lady, then brother is third and his fiancee is ninth, and you are first.

kalliope
29-01-2012, 06:16
I'll be tackling this thread today and tomorrow, looking at the charts, etc. I'm so glad you guys have been so active in getting it going. I was so vocal about my excitement at the beginning but then seemed to disappear, sorry!

I was sidetracked with installing virtual Windows (on my Mac) so I can run the Morinus programs natively, but I'll save that discussion for the software thread. :)

queen_of_wands
29-01-2012, 06:37
Thanks for that and sorry for the delay in getting back to you - Today has been rather busy to say the least!!

Looking at your link to astro.com the data appears to be for the time and place of your birth, rather than the time and place that you asked the question. Horary is independent of your birth details it is based solely on the time that you felt strongly enough about a matter to ask the question. It's a bit like someone coming to you for a Tarot reading, your not concerned with what the cards were like when they were born, but the cards here and now for the burning question that has brought them in for a reading.

Sadly the non-natal part of Astrology has dwindled a lot, so much so that people associate Astrology solely with their birth sign and details. As you said in one of your previous posts, you would like to try both me, and your own reading. So I'll leave that still as a possibility but I'll get on with doing a reading for you.

I suggest a good question would be, 'How well will I perform in the competition on March 1?' as a starting point.

Now I'm going to make an assumption here, which I'd like you to come back on. The assumption is that there's more than you and one other competitor - it's not one singly one to one match. Rather I'm assuming that you may be involved in more than one match or have to play against several others. If I'm wrong here please get back to me.

I'll do the chart straight away and begin posting tomorrow (local time).

Thank you, and yes there will be a lot of people there, people competing and people who have the potential to change my life as far as advancing my career to a whole new level.

Minderwiz
29-01-2012, 07:36
Following Lee's question about his brother, and the issue of turning the chart, I have had a re-read of Lilly. On the question 'If the absent party be alive or dead?' He counsels strongly to be careful in choosing the right significator for the other party but to the effect that Lee got it right - brother takes third house.

Lilly refers to the cusp of the absent person's house as his 'ascendant' an obvious reference to turning the chart. He then judges on the basis of whether the person's significator is 'either in the fourth or eighth either from his own ascendant or of the Figure (chart), that configuration is oneargument that man or woman enquired after is deceased'

Note 'one argument' i.e. it's not conclusive in itself.

The same applies to being in the twelfth house either of the chart or from the third and in opposition or square from a malefic or with the Sun unfortunate or afflicted

Being in the sixth of the chart or from the third is a sign of sickness as is a square or opposition from Lord 6.

Any aspect to the benefics will ameliorate the harm, strong essential dignity is likely to ameliorate the harm too.


He concludes by saying

'I do only observer if the significator of the absent be strong and separated from a fortune and in good house, the absent lives, if he was afflicted or lately in square or opposition of the infortunes he was perplexed or suffered much misery, according to the nature of the house whence afflicted but I judge him not dead unless together with that mischance the lord of the eighth do unfortunate him'

I think you would need several indicators of death or sickness before you leapt to that conclusion - simply being in an unfortunate place is a testimony but it's not a sufficient one to draw an adverse conclusion. Remember Frawley's injunction about the 'default' answer.

In such a question the default must be that the person is alive and well, and this will only be overturned if there are several indicators of death or illness.

Lee
29-01-2012, 08:43
Thanks Minderwiz. So, do you think there is enough in the chart, between my brother's 8th House ruler being in the 3rd House, and the square between Saturn and Mercury, to indicate death?

Astraea
29-01-2012, 12:03
Thanks Minderwiz. So, do you think there is enough in the chart, between my brother's 8th House ruler being in the 3rd House, and the square between Saturn and Mercury, to indicate death?
...I would also note that Mercury is lord of the 8th house in both the turned and unturned charts.

Minderwiz
30-01-2012, 06:05
The chart was cast for the moment I understood your question, last night. As you can see from the attached chart it has Mars Retrograde and exactly conjunct the Ascendant, Whilst Mars is in his own Terms, that is still not a good sign for the question, especially as Mars is accidentally Lord 8.

Your significator is Mercury, on the cusp of the fifth house and combust (and going further into combustion). Mercury is in his own Terms and is not badly placed by House but the combustion is a serious weakness. Combustion normally means that the planet cannot be seen, but by the same token it is blinded by the Sun. It's placement suggests that you see the contest as something of a bit of fun, to be enjoyed, rather than a serious competition, though Saturn ruling the fifth does suggest that things are more serious than you think in this contest.

Contest horaries normally assign the seventh to the opposition, so the rest of the competitors are signified by Jupiter, ruler of the Pisces Descendant. The good news for you is that Jupiter is a lot less serious than Saturn, so if you 'open' your eyes and take things a bit more seriously for the competition then you have a chance. Jupiter is placed badly in the eighth House and is slow, having just turned direct (though that also implies that it will get stronger in the future (hopefully not strong enough quickly enough). As well as being Peregrine Jupiter happens to be in the Terms of Mercury, so your significator is stronger than that of the opposition and better placed. The supporters of the opposition are shown by the eighth house ruler - in this case Mars which is on your Ascendant. By supporters I mean someone or somebody who helps them, such as a trainer, or coach or simply a book or manual - something they rely on to do better. However on the cusp of the Ascendant Mars has some control over you, either directly or indirectly so their supporters are well positioned.

Your supporters are signified by the Lord of the Second House, which is Venus. Venus is poorly placed in the sixth but is in its exaltation. You have a better 'coach/trainer/manual' than the competition but it's not as well placed by any means as that of the competitors. So for example they may have not been taught well but they have enough knowledge to capitalise on it, whereas you are better trained but might not be able to make the most of it.

So will you win? There is no applying aspect between significators, but in this case we don't need one - the contest will take place on March 1. The outcome of the horary is decided by relative strength, and in that regard you are slightly stronger than the opposition but bear in mind Mars afflicts the Ascendant (You) and is naturally malefic and in this case Lord 8 and the supporter of the opposition. You ought to have a good chance but from this I don't think that chance will be good enough. You won't win. You ought to do moderately well though - you won't disgrace yourself by any means.

Now I've cast that for the date and time of my understanding of your question. There's a good case for casting it for March 1 and the time of the contest. However as there are many competitors, and there's no guarantee the time of the contest is when you actually get to 'perform' I think the current chart is a good personal indicator of your chances.

Minderwiz
30-01-2012, 06:09
Thanks Minderwiz. So, do you think there is enough in the chart, between my brother's 8th House ruler being in the 3rd House, and the square between Saturn and Mercury, to indicate death?

Hi Lee,

I'll take a look at the chat and let you know but Astraea may also have some ideas on that :)

Astraea
30-01-2012, 07:18
Hi Lee,

I'll take a look at the chat and let you know but Astraea may also have some ideas on that :)
Hi Minderwiz, I do have some ideas about it, but didn't want to hijack the thread. I'll just post my thoughts as briefly as possible, addressed to Lee.

I am inclined to agree with your assessment of your brother's condition, Lee. Mercury not only rules your brother's 8th house, but his 6th - and as you say, Mercury is in the 3rd house (your brother's 1st), within orb of combustion* and applying closely to a square with his significator Saturn.

Although you as the querent are indeed signified by Mars, you are not the focus of the chart or a primary player in the question; so we can read Mars purely in his own right, in your brother's 8th house, peregrine and retrograde. There is what is termed a generosity here - which is basically reception without an aspect - involving the same planets (Mercury and Mars) who were in reception in your employment chart; but their trine is now separating, which throws Mars back into peregrine status in Virgo, without an applying positive aspect to save him.

Mars in questions related to physical health issues signifies acute situations, inflammation and fever (either of body or mind) and sometimes violence (ranging anywhere from an encounter with an assailant to surgery). Situated in Virgo in your brother's 8th house, Mars might suggest digestive/assimilative/metabolic issues and/or substance ingestion (all conditions associated with Virgo) as contributors to 8th-house conditions; or perhaps a recent surgical operation or other invasive event. Mercury in the 3rd house of the chart (your brother's 1st), moving into combustion, is another indication of inflammation, since the Sun is hot and dry. This could even refer to a more abstract inflammatory process affecting your brother's health status, i.e. hot-headedness or poor impulse control. The ruler of your brother's 8th house in his 1st suggest some kind of self-involvement in whatever has happened.

Likewise in the unturned chart, Mercury rules the 8th house - and with Mercury in the 3rd (your brother), the message points in the same general direction.

The most worrisome aspect is the close unobstructed applying square between the main significators, Saturn (your brother) and Mercury (Lord 8 in both turned and unturned charts). And there are other indications that support that primary finding.

The 4th house is associated with the end of life, the final outcome of a question, and the grave. In the unturned chart, Jupiter (traditional ruler of Pisces, the sign on the cusp of the unturned 4th) is located in the unturned 6th house of health, having recently separated from an opposition to your brother's significator, Saturn - suggesting recent illness or exacerbation of a chronic condition. Your brother's 4th house, i.e. 4th from the 3rd, is ruled by Venus, found here in the unturned 4th and soon to be conjoined by the Moon (ruler of the unturned 9th of long journeys). Note that the Moon is actually separating from a conjunction with Jupiter - the Morinus program makes it look as if the Moon is at 1 degree Pisces, but that's because the first 1 in the number 11 (the Moon's actual degree) is obscured by the black ink of the cusp.

Even in horaries for which we turn the chart, the original chart (known as the radix, or root) must still be considered, and all testimonies weighed. And even though you might think you have not used a turned chart in your analysis, derived houses are exactly that - so you've actually done a deeper analysis of the chart thank you think!

On the day you asked this question, your brother's significator (Saturn) and the ruler of his 8th (Mercury) were closely applying to a square, and the Moon (general co-significator and timer in horaries) was soon to conjoin Venus (significator of the end of the matter in the unturned chart). Saturn is in the sign of his exaltation, but the final degree indicates a critical, pivotal situation; it's as if his luck were running out. So I am inclined to think that your brother was very near death at the time of the horary (cast on January 26) - and might actually have passed by now. Cardinal signs typically involve the shortest timeframes, and in this chart the main significators - Mercury and Saturn - are in the cardinal signs Capricorn and Libra, respectively.




* Traditional horary astrologers sometimes argue about whether Mars and Mercury can be harmed by combustion, since astronomically Mercury is always close to the Sun, and Mars is naturally hot and dry and thus - so the thinking goes - immune to the Sun's combustion. Other astrologers think that combustion is actually worse for Mercury and Mars, since it heats and dries them excessively. There are equal testimonies for both points of view in the ancient texts.

You will often find that the chart will lead you, and here I am inclined to think that Mercury within the orb of combustion would not bode well for your brother's vitality.

Minderwiz
31-01-2012, 05:45
Hi Minderwiz, I do have some ideas about it, but didn't want to hijack the thread..

Astraea. I can't think of a better person to 'hijack' the thread (as long as you don't fly it to Cuba :) )


I don't disagree with anything Astraea says in her closely argued and meticulous analysis. Saturn is strong in essential dignity but everything else is against him. The issue really is has your brother the strength to resist an awful situation that he finds himself in?

The only rays of hope I can offer, are that Saturn effectively in the twelfth House and that might alternatively mean prison or hospital, both twelfth house institutions. Obviously hospital has connotations of a health risk - a serious one from the chart. However, hospital is at least the best place to be if there is such a risk.;

The other silim ray of hope is that Mars and Mercury (you and Lord 8) are in a mutual reception by exaltation, so death may be unwilling to strike your brother.

Not much I agree. Incidentally Saturn is conjunctr the new fangled, so called arabic part of imprisonment, which I don't use but does seem to echo the prison possibility.

I hope I'm right and Astraea is wrong for your and your brother's sake. But I can't fault her logic and reasoning.

Lee
31-01-2012, 08:46
Immense thanks to Astraea and Minderwiz for taking such an in-depth look at the chart! I remember reading a quote, I think it was by Maggie Hyde, writing about Dennis Elwell that he made horary charts "dance with radicality," and now I think I have an inkling of what she was referring to.

I will certainly spend some time studying both your interpretations, and also spend some time going over Minderwiz's material in this thread and in the "Traditional Terms" thread. After going through these threads and making some initial attempts at charts, I feel like I'm much better prepared to tackle some of the literature than I was.

Astraea
31-01-2012, 08:58
After going through these threads and making some initial attempts at charts, I feel like I'm much better prepared to tackle some of the literature than I was.
That's wonderful, Lee!

Lee
31-01-2012, 09:39
In fact I copied and pasted Minderwiz's instructive posts in the two threads and created a document which I've loaded on my Kindle for easy studying on the go!

Nytebugg
04-02-2012, 09:53
wow, I have a lot of reading to catch up on in this thread. work has been a killer lately and I haven't had much free time.

Lee
13-02-2012, 00:15
I have a very basic question. If the two significators are in an applying square or opposition, is this a positive indication (because they're in an applying aspect), or a negative indication (because it's a square or opposition)?

In other words, are we simply looking for an aspect of any kind, and that's a positive indication, and then the lack of any aspect is a negative indication? Or are we also looking at the kind of aspect?

Edited to add: In reading over this thread, I see that in discussing my "brother" chart, Astraea did say that in that chart, an applying square between the significators was the most worrisome aspect, so that suggests that a square or opposition is indeed a negative indication.

Minderwiz
13-02-2012, 06:13
If the question is about something you really want - such as will I get the job or will I find my lost earring, then an applying square or opposition is definitely negative. Lilly says that he hasn't come across any examples where an opposition has worked favourably and whilst sometimes the square does 'work' he says that it implies difficulty and indeed you might regret getting what you desired.

So if will I get a brand new car is signified by an applying square, you might get the car but it will be nothing but trouble and expense or even worse you might have a serious accident whilst driving it.

There may be times when the square or opposition might be favourable, but it would have to be a situation where you are hoping that something does not come to pass, such as being billed for $20,000 by the IRS, or even worse. Care must be taken though to check that the square or opposition doesn't simply indicate bad times ahead is such circumstances - so arguably a square might indicate that the IRS actually do succeed in billing you.

I'd tend to see them as always negative unless there's convincing evidence that they are preventing a nasty from happening. All the examples I can think of could also be read as indicating the 'nasty' will happen to you, as you have a clear wish that the nasty won't happen.

So 'Will the executioner catch his plane and get here in time for my execution tomorrow?' might show an opposition between Lord 8 (death) and Lord 3 (The plane) and you might interpret that as meaning he won't make it and you'll get reprieved.

However the question is really 'Will I escape execution tomorrow?' and the square or opposition indicates 'No' you won't rather than the executioner failing to catch his plane. A macabre example but it shows the dilemma in interpreting the aspect in a positive manner.

I'd be interested in how Astraea sees it as she's usually more able to see the direct and obvious answer.

edited to add:

Lilly allows translation of light to involve oppositions and squares but again I think we have to recognise that there is likely to be at best difficulties and delays involved. And at worst we don't like it when we get the quesited.

Astraea
13-02-2012, 07:53
As is so often true in astrology, the quick answer is: It depends. Likewise, practitioners can hold different opinions with regard to the same set of facts.

For me, unobstructed applying aspects between significators are like energetic highways - they bring events to pass, but the ease or difficulty thereof depends on the type of aspect. In general, trines and sextiles tend to mean "Yes, with little or no effort," squares "Maybe, but with difficulty and tension," and oppositions signify "You can force the issue, but you'll be sorry."

Equally important, as Minderwiz points out, is what your aim is in asking the question. If you simply want to know whether or not A will marry B, and there is an unobstructed applying aspect between the two significators (especially with support from other areas of the chart), I see this as meaning that the likelihood of marriage is strong (though not inevitable): the smoothest route to the union would be shown by a trine or sextile (the sextile requires effort, but not an inordinate amount); with the square, A and B will need to move some mountains, but can still make it happen; with the opposition, they can bulldoze their way through obstacles and bend circumstances to their wills, but they'll regret it.

But if the question is whether or not A and B will be happily married, and their significators apply by square or opposition, then the answer would be No. So qualifiers are important. Much depends on the context of the question.

If someone asks if the IRS will send him a huge bill, I think he would be better off without any aspects or receptions at all between the significators. To me, a trine or sextile would mean "The bill is in the mail, but they won't be nasty about it" a square would signify "They're on your trail, and they're angry" and an opposition would mean it's time to line up some funds and get legal representation.

Lee
13-02-2012, 08:50
Hmm, very interesting. Minderwiz's and Astraea's viewpoints differ a bit (not trying to pick a fight between you, LOL). I do realize that different practictioners can hold differing but equally valid viewpoints.

So, in trying to boil this down to its absolute essence, what I'm gathering is the following for Astraea's viewpoint (for the moment not distinguishing between trine and sextile on the one hand or between square and opposition on the other):

If the question is will X happen:

Trine/sextile: Yes, and the route will be smooth/positive outcome.

Square/opposition: Yes, and the route will be difficult/negative outcome.

No aspect: Will not happen.

I think this formulation would still hold true for Astraea's example of "Will I be happily married," as the "difficult/negative outcome" would clearly suggest a "No" to that literal question.

Minderwiz I think sees the square/opposition as usually meaning "Will not happen," although there may be times when it can mean "Yes and the route will be difficult."

In either case, I imagine a lot would depend on what else is going on in the chart.

What if it were a fundamentally different kind of question? If instead of asking "Will X happen," we ask "Will X condition continue," it seems to me the trine/sextile and square/opposition results are the same, however we might amend "No aspect" to mean "No change" rather than "Will not happen."

Minderwiz points out that for finding objects, a square/opposition will mean no, the object won't be found. Astraea, I'd be interested to know if you would agree, or if, applying your principle, a square might mean it will be found but with difficulty, and an opposition would mean, say, it will be found, but found broken?

Minderwiz, for the "lost object" kind of question, I'd be interested in knowing, if a square/opposition means "not found," how you would you interpret no aspect?

I tried applying Astraea's principle to Minderwiz's morbid example :P, and this is what I got:

"Will I be executed tomorrow?"

Trine/sextile: Yes, and it will be an easy death
Square/opposition: Yes, and it will be a painful death
No aspect: No execution. :)

Astraea, I like your descriptions of the differentiations between the various aspects and I'm saving them for further reference.

I did actually intend to post another attempt (I was going to say "another stab" but thought better of it) at a horary chart, but re-reading this thread and gathering/organizing information from it took up half the day, and I did have to do other things like exercising and making dinner, so I didn't get to it. But I do expect to, either one evening this week or next weekend. Minderwiz, should I post it to this thread, or would you prefer, as suggested early in this thread, that I post a new thread entitled "DIY Horary - (Question)"?

Lee
13-02-2012, 08:58
P.S. I think I may have missed a nuance in Astraea's post regarding the meaning of a square as opposed to an opposition. Rereading it, I think a square would mean a lot of effort required, but the outcome could possibly be either positive or negative; while with the opposition, the outcome is definitely negative.

Astraea
13-02-2012, 10:47
Lee, you raise excellent points and questions which (for me, anyway) are far too complex to speak to categorically - even hypothetically. I touched on a few keynotes of my own approach in my post, but in reality, all manner of issues enter into a judgement (especially reception and non-aspectual contacts like antiscia). To me, trines and sextiles provide easy opportunity and the likelihood of a Yes answer (in certain contexts), but they do not imply inevitability. In the same manner, squares are difficult but don't deny fulfillment, while oppositions can bring about events in ways that end badly - but, again, with caveats. One must look at the whole chart, as summed up in the maddening phrase so often seen in astrological texts: "All things being equal."

Not only do astrologers often disagree - their disputes about pivotal issues can be ferocious (as seen on a few other forums). One must find one's own way, and it often feels as if one is flying blind. My route through these airlanes commenced with a study of general natal astrology, moving on to horary, and then to traditional approaches which gradually supplanted the modern psychological emphasis that characterized my earlier studies. I know of no other way to recognize one's individual resonance with astrological symbolism than to study Lilly and other source texts, practice constantly, and keep records of the results.

Minderwiz and I have no disputes or areas of significant disagreement, though in relatively brief forum posts it might sometimes appear as if we do. He is a superb practitioner of horary astrology, emphasizing Lilly's approach - and rightly so. Lilly, in my estimation, needs to be front and center in any course of horary study, and wherever I might seem to disagree with Minderwiz, there will be found only degrees of light and shade within a unified field.

(Edited to add/revise: Minderwiz is a superb astrologer, period - which one has to be, in order to master horary. John Frawley has famously stated that horary astrology was taught first in traditional usage, but in my view horary is extraordinarily layered and complex, requiring solid grounding in basic techniques most often found in natal work. At any rate - in any seeming dispute between me and Minderwiz, he gets my vote! :D)

idyll
13-02-2012, 13:30
I can't believe I missed this thread til now!

I've been reading through quite a bit of what's been posted, and would like to give this a try but I'm pretty nervous about trying it out since I don't have that much experience with it (I've done work with my own birth chart, but that's about as far as my astrology experience goes!)

Am I able to post a chart or question here to help walk me through the intrepretation process, or is there another question/chart on the go right now?

Minderwiz
13-02-2012, 19:36
I*n my previous post I was going off memory of what Lilly said about squares and oppositions rather than reaching across to the bookshelf and quoting him. As so often memory is not perfect so I'll do what I should have done late last night :)

ASPECTS OF (SQUARE) AND (OPPOSITION) Things are produced to perfection, when the significators apply by square Aspect provided each planet have dignity in the degree wherein they are, and apply out of proper and good houses, otherwise not. Sometimes it happens, that a matter is brought to pass when the significators have applied by opposition but it hath been when there hath been mutual reception by house and out of friendly houses and the moon separating from the significator of the thing demanded and applying presently to the Lord of the Ascendant (that is there is also translation of light by the Moon) I have rarely seen anything brought to perfection by this way of opposition but the Querent had been better the thing being undone; for if the question was concerning marriage the parties seldom agreed but were ever wrangling, each party repining at his evil choice, laying the blame upon their covetous parents, as having no mind to it themselves: and if the question was about portion or monies, the Querent did it true, recover his money or portion promised but it cost him more to procure it in suit of law, than the debt was worth, etc. and so have I seen it in happen in many other things, etc

Now that implies that:

square can work providing that the significators have dignity (and whilst he doesn't specifically say what dignity, I would think he means a t least Terms and probably ruler, exaltation or triplicity only. And the significators must be well placed - angular or possibly succeedent houses.

Oppositions may work but only if there is mutual reception and translation of light by the Moon. Now it's not perfectly clear whether the remainder of his paragraph is about perfection through these conditions, i.e. simple oppositions don't work. Or whether the remainder of his paragraph is about simple oppostions and the aforesaid case with mutual receptions is OK. However if he did mean to discriminate between 'favourable' and 'unfavourable' oppositions I'm at something of a loss as to why 'unfavourable' squares don't work but 'unfavourable' oppositions do work (though you wish they hadn't).

So my brief summary wasn't exact enough and Astraea's comment is more in line with what Lilly seems to have meant. I did however remember that Lilly sees translation of light working for oppositions, so if he has this as a requirement of perfection by opposition (along with mutual reception) I suppose I can claim that i was nearly right in attributing views to him. :)

Personally, I think I'd apply Lilly's full test of mutual reception plus translation before I'd be predicting a perfection of the matter and that would include getting what seems to be the right outcome but regretting it at length later. Going on my gut feeling, without those conditions, things won't work out. .

For squares I'd go with Lilly and say it needs the dignities to work out but there will be difficulties, delays or obstructions in the process. Without the dignities and good house placement, then it's unlikely to or we're in the situation of getting what we wanted and then wishing we hadn't.

But, as Astraea says much of interpretation is down to the individual Astrologer and indeed how the individual Astrologer sees the chart (as we don't view the aspect alone.) Lilly (and Astraea) have done far more Horaries than me, so I'm not going to disagree with either of them. All I can say is that in my limited (and it is limited) experience with horary, I haven't come across an outcome perfected as desired by opposition - hence my comment about it being a negative indicator.

Minderwiz
13-02-2012, 19:42
I can't believe I missed this thread til now!

I've been reading through quite a bit of what's been posted, and would like to give this a try but I'm pretty nervous about trying it out since I don't have that much experience with it (I've done work with my own birth chart, but that's about as far as my astrology experience goes!)

Am I able to post a chart or question here to help walk me through the intrepretation process, or is there another question/chart on the go right now?

Yes by all means - a new chart and question would be appreciated!

Lee
13-02-2012, 19:58
Much thanks to you both -- your explanations are greatly appreciated.

Astraea
13-02-2012, 20:11
I haven't come across an outcome perfected as desired by opposition - hence my comment about it being a negative indicator.
Nor have I, the operative words being "as desired." The opposition, when it brings something about, ends up with the person wishing he hadn't bothered - rather like those fairy tales in which the hero initially seems to get what he wants (by dint of brazen willfulness), but at a heartbreaking cost.

Since Lee's question was whether or not an aspect (even a square or opposition) is more conducive to results between significators than no aspect at all, I tried to confine myself to the terms of the question - but aspects always act in and through the dignities and debilities of the planets involved, and a host of other considerations.

Lee
13-02-2012, 22:01
I know of no other way to recognize one's individual resonance with astrological symbolism than to study Lilly and other source texts, practice constantly, and keep records of the results.Okay, I just ordered Lilly from Amazon. With Prime shipping it will arrive on Wednesday. :)

Minderwiz
13-02-2012, 23:57
Nor have I, the operative words being "as desired." The opposition, when it brings something about, ends up with the person wishing he hadn't bothered - rather like those fairy tales in which the hero initially seems to get what he wants (by dint of brazen willfulness), but at a heartbreaking cost.

Since Lee's question was whether or not an aspect (even a square or opposition) is more conducive to results between significators than no aspect at all, I tried to confine myself to the terms of the question - but aspects always act in and through the dignities and debilities of the planets involved, and a host of other considerations.

Me wandering off the exact question again :) Yes I understood that that is what you meant and I think you are right on the nail with that observation

Astraea
14-02-2012, 02:54
Okay, I just ordered Lilly from Amazon. With Prime shipping it will arrive on Wednesday. :)
Good, good, good! :)

idyll
14-02-2012, 04:10
Yes by all means - a new chart and question would be appreciated!

Awesome :)

I'll post my location/the time I finalize the question at here, so that if you'd prefer to draw the chart for that time you can.. I'll probably draw one for that time and at least try to walk through it at some point over the next day or 2. Once I do so, I'll post it :)

I was torn between 2 questions, but I think there's one that's taken more importance for me right now, which is:

Will M and I have any kind of relationship in the next 2 months (so by around mid April)?

Background for this: M and I were very close, and have fallen out of contact in the past month or so although the doors are still more or less open for communication (there's a history here of being a bit on/off in each others lifes). We used to be romantically involved, but more recently were trying to build more of a friendship.

By relationship in this circumstance I mean any kind of relationship that is stable and consistent, whether it be one of friendship or one that is more romantic. It could even be a friendship where we only meet up for coffee once a month to catch up.. as long as it's predictable/consistent and there is no longer a question if we are or are not a part of each other's lifes.

Hope that's enough details to make my question correct, if not just let me know :)

When I draw this chart, I'll be drawing it for 2:08PM, with the location being Waterloo, Ontario, Canada.

Lee
14-02-2012, 11:01
I'm going to post one more attempt to interpret a chart, and then I'll retire for several weeks/months and do some reading. :)

The Question: I am moving next month. I'm hoping for quiet neighbors. As anyone who's lived in an apartment knows, a noisy and/or vindictive neighbor can cause a great amount of stress, and the only surefire method of dealing with it is to move out, a costly and hassle-filled solution. So, Will the neighbors at the new apartment building be noisy?

(This ties in, although I didn't plan it that way, with our discussion above about a "Will X happen" question when X is a nasty which I hope to avoid.)

Chart data: Bethesda, Maryland, USA (77.6 W, 38.58 N), time 18:42, GMT -5, no daylight savings.

Moon is not void of course so we can proceed.

Significators: For me (1st house for self), Mercury in Aquarius in the 6th. For my neighbors (3rd house for neighbors), Venus in Aries in the 8th.

My dignities/debilities
Mercury scores:
+3 for being in its own triplicity
-4 for 6th House
-5 for being Combust
+4 for being direct
+2 for being occidental
+2 for being fast
Total +2

Neighbors' dignities/debilities
Venus scores:
+2 for being in its own terms
-5 for being in its detriment
-4 for 8th House
+4 for being direct
+2 for being occidental
(Venus is neither slow nor fast)
Total -1

So, neither I nor my neighbors have much dignity.

Mercury is in a square aspect to Saturn, however this hopefully is ameliorated by the fact that it's a reception (Mercury in Aquarius is being aspected by its own sign ruler). (Question: Unless I am mistaken, this aspect is separating -- does that mean I should ignore it altogether, even though it is very close?)

There is no aspect or antiscia between the significators. Unless I am mistaken, there is no translation or collection of light. (Question: If I'm correct, it looks like the Moon will square Mercury on early Thursday, and will go on to trine Venus at around midday Thursday. Does this count as translation of light? I'm guessing not, because neither aspect is actually occurring yet. [I just checked "On the Heavenly Spheres" and it specifies that one aspect must be separating and one must be applying -- in this case neither aspect is separating or applying, it's all in the future, so I guess this wouldn't count -- on the other hand, Minderwiz says check the Moon's past and future aspects, so I'm not sure how this impacts the result.])

Forming judgment:

To use Astraea's phrase, I still feel like I'm flying blind in terms of what interpretive road to go down. So I'll just pick a road and stick with it. Since neither significator has dignity and there is no aspect or antiscia between them, it seems to me that this chart is saying "nothing happening," i.e. neighbors will not be noisy. (Presumably a trine/sextile might have meant "yes noisy but it won't be too bad" and square/opposition might have meant "yes noisy and it will be bad.") My significator Mercury is very close to changing signs, but perhaps this doesn't signify much, as there is no other indication of change that I can see in the chart.

Mercury is combust, so I'm taking that to mean I will go unnoticed by my neighbors, which in this situation is a good thing -- mean neighbors who don't notice me would be less likely to torment me with noise. (Perhaps this ties in with what Astraea said about Mercury possibly not being negatively affected by combust since Mercury lives close to the sun anyway.) Mercury is moving out of combust, though, and also out of sign -- could that mean the situation might change, and I might get noticed? Even so, I see no bad things happening elsewhere in the chart so it's hard for me to imagine it will be a bad result. Everyone involved has poor dignity, which suggests to me that everyone is in a weakened state (tired after coming home from work every day?) and thus will keep to themselves and not cause trouble with neighbors.

Astraea
14-02-2012, 12:23
Oh, can I ever relate to your dilemma! It's awful to have noisy neighbors and I'm glad you'll be moving to a new location.

Was your chart drawn for today? I'll assume so.

Usually, when one is talking about "nexts" - next husband, next house, next neighbor - the existing party or situation is shown by one house, and the next by another removed at an equal distance; in this case, the noisemakers would be shown by the 3rd house (since they are your neighbors at this moment), and the new neighbors by the 5th (the 3rd from the 3rd). Note that this has nothing to do with typical 5th-house meanings - we're only talking about derived houses here. If you were purchasing a house, your existing house would be 4th and the prospective house would be 7th (4th from the 4th); new spouse would be 1st (7th from the 7th), and so on.

First we check to see if the chart describes the situation, and it does. You are shown as a tenant (your ruler Mercury being in the 6th house); your present neighbors are signified by Mars in the 1st house - they are in your face, literally. Your ruler is at 29 degrees Aquarius, showing that you are about to make a change. Mercury is moving away from combustion, underscoring your departure from a heated situation.

The Moon, which is always co-ruler of the question, is in the Via Combusta in the 3rd house of the existing neighbors, applying to a sextile with her ruler Mars in your first - to me, this underscores your irritation with them and the effort (sextile) it takes to share space with them.

The new neighbors are shown by Saturn in Libra, as Capricorn is on the cusp of the 5th (3rd from the 3rd). He is exalted, although retrograde. Mercury is indeed separating from a trine to Saturn, which probably represents recent contact (if only peripherally) with the new neighbors.

The fact that both you and the new neighbors are both disposited by an exalted Saturn is a good sign. It shows that you are in the same ballpark, so to speak - and will probably see things in a similar way.

This is a case that I would judge by the dignities and indications of the planets, more than aspects between significators. You are asking if the new neighbors will be a better match for you than the old, which the dignities indicate is indeed the case. You are not asking if you should move from one apartment to the next, but whether you will have a better rapport with the new neighbors than the existing ones - so the neighbors having the best dignities win.

The fact that the trine between Mercury (you) and Saturn (the new neighbors) is separating might show that you're enjoying some measure of wishful thinking that will require eventual adjustment (especially since Saturn is retrograde and exalted, a dignity that tends toward exaggeration), but still the new neighbors represent an improvement over the ones you have now.

Mercury and Mars (the existing neighbors) do have a reception, but without an aspect you have less and less attachment to them.

One thing that bothers me is that the term "neighbors" is so general, and an apartment complex involves many neighbors. So I would have to take the chart's indications in a loose and nonspecific way.

I'll be interested to hear how Minderwiz sees this situation.

(Edited to add: I was just looking over your score tabulation and see that you have listed Venus as ruler of the 3rd - I must have been wrong in assuming you cast the chart for today, and if so forget everything I've said :D) I drew up a chart for today at 6:48 PM, Bethesda MD.)

Lee
14-02-2012, 12:42
Hi Astraea, sorry if I was unclear -- actually my current neighbors are not noisy, I'm moving for other reasons. I have had noisy neighbors at previous residences, but not at my current one.

So in my question I'm not actually comparing neighbors. Rather, I'm asking the simple question will the new ones be noisy.

Lee
14-02-2012, 12:47
Hmm, I did draw the chart for today. On the Morinus chart it appears that the third house cusp is in very late degree Libra. My desktop PC is off right now so I cant check the actual cusps degree.

EDITED TO ADD: Okay I turned my PC back on (and then I really must get to sleep, LOL!). Morinus has the third house cusp at 29 degrees 16 minutes Libra. I will send you an e-mail with the chart attached. I am eager to see where I went wrong! :)

Astraea
14-02-2012, 12:55
Don't be so sure you are the wrong who is wrong, it could easily be me! I cast the chart with Io for Macintosh and will go back and be sure I entered the data correctly.

Astraea
14-02-2012, 12:57
Just checked it...Io gives 00 degrees 42 minutes Scorpio as the 3rd house cusp. This is a good example of what can happen with slight variations in programs.

Astraea
14-02-2012, 13:11
The chart you e-mailed me looks as if the 3rd house cusp is just over the line into Scorpio (visually), but if Morinus gave you a printout listing the 3rd house cusp as 29.16 Libra, there's definitely a discrepancy between Io and Morinus.

I'm going to go cast the chart at Astro because my Windows machine with Janus and Solar Fire is in the shop - back in a minute.

Astraea
14-02-2012, 13:19
Lee, the error was mine - I cast the chart on Io for 6:48 instead of 6:42. Recasting the chart on Io, I now get 29.20 Libra. My profound apologies, and now I will go back and have another look.

Astraea
14-02-2012, 13:33
Okay, now Venus represents the existing neighbors. And she is in detriment, unaspected in an unfortunate house. The new neighbors are still shown to be have more dignities than the existing ones.

(Edited to add: I just now saw your post about the reason for your move, and thank you for your clarification of the neighbor issue, which I had misunderstood through no fault of yours - mea culpa. Still, the bottom line for me is that your new neighbors look better than the existing ones, so you will not regret moving on that score.

Since your question is not "will the new neighbors be better than the old ones?", but simply whether your new neighbors will be satisfactory, a case could be made for looking at the radical 3rd house to describe any neighbors - in which case the answer would be different. But you don't exist in a vacuum - you are moving from one situation to another and I see your present neighbors as part of the context of your life change, and foundational to your question. So I think we are safe in looking at the chart in terms of an exchange of neighbors - i.e. 3rd from the 3rd.)

Lee
14-02-2012, 20:42
Lee, the error was mine - I cast the chart on Io for 6:48 instead of 6:42. Recasting the chart on Io, I now get 29.20 Libra. My profound apologies, and now I will go back and have another look.Please don't apologize -- in fact, I'm sure you will understand when I say that I received the news of your error with exquisite delight. :D Such is human nature. :rolleyes:

I keep forgetting to attach the chart here -- here it is.

Minderwiz
14-02-2012, 20:58
This is a really interesting horary, mostly because it does set some interpretational challenges.

I firmly agree with Astraea's approach - this is a question that should be settled by the dignity of the neighbour's significator, rather than an aspect. The chart screams change at me - with both your significator, Mercury in the 29th degree and the cusp of the third in the 29th degree You are about to relocate your dwelling to another Landlord shown by Mercury moving from the domicile of Saturn into the domicile of Jupiter and as a consequence the neighbours will change - the third cusp is about to move into Scorpio bringing new neigbours (indeed if you had used any other major house system you would have had a third cusp in Scorpio,

Now if I'd not had the benefit of Astraea's thoughts and got this question 'cold' I'd have used the radical third for the neighbours or possibly thought of using Mars, as the coming neighbours (because of the imminent departure into Scorpio of the third cusp). The question is clearly about the neighbours at the new apartment and the move is already decided, that is the current neighbours are not an issue in this question,,

If you had asked whether the new neighbours would be better than the existing ones then I would totally agree with Astraea in using the third for the existing and the fifth for the new and that's how I would have tackled it. Now she's got me thinking about it LOL

The great thing about horary is that it can be validated - so if the turned version suggests better neighbours than now then experience will show if that's a good choice of the house of the new neighbours.

So, left to myself I would have used Venus for the neighbours in the question and possibly thought about whether I should consider Mars as an alternative. I would not have thought about using the fifth as the house of the new neighbours. However I do see the force of Astraea's argument and I'm having some second thoughts.

Just a couple of questions about the chart's description of the situation:

Is your current Landlord a neighbour or (unlikely) an elder sibling? - Saturn, the current ruler of Mercury sits on the third cusp

If not: In the new apartment will your Landlord be a near neighbour or an elder sibling?

PS: The Moon would not be involved in any translation of light between Mercury and Venus as she will first aspect the Sun before she aspects Mercury thus prohibiting any translation of light.

Lee
14-02-2012, 21:27
Is your current Landlord a neighbour or (unlikely) an elder sibling? - Saturn, the current ruler of Mercury sits on the third cusp

If not: In the new apartment will your Landlord be a near neighbour or an elder sibling?No to both.

Astraea
14-02-2012, 23:41
-- in fact, I'm sure you will understand when I say that I received the news of your error with exquisite delight. :D
Indeed I do! :D

Lee
15-02-2012, 00:20
I think I am not quite grasping how orbs figure into this. When we're looking for aspects between significators, or aspects to significators from benefics/malefics, or translation/collection of light, I know the aspects should be applying and should be in sign, but do they also need to be within orb? Or are we just looking for an aspect which is applying and is in the proper sign, regardless of degree?

If we need to pay attention to orbs, what are those orbs?

Apologies if this has been discussed before -- I did a thread search and couldn't find it, but it's a big thread and I may have simply lost track.

Astraea
15-02-2012, 02:15
Generally speaking, closely applying significators send the clearest message. If planets are applying with several degrees between them, there is a greater opportunity for another planet to interfere with the perfection of an aspect (or for a significator to leave a sign or house) than if only a degree or two were involved. So the closer significators are by degree to completing an aspect, the greater the opportunity for them to perfect the aspect. If they are within orb, they have already begun to influence one another (see below). If they are widely apart by degree, but will eventually perfect an aspect (before either of them leaves the signs and houses they are in), and no other planet fills the gap between them or aspects one of them first, that can be seen as a wide application which will eventually perfect in real time (as judged by the ephemeris). The farther apart significators are by degree, the greater the likelihood that we will find either translation or collection of light, or some form of interference in the completion of the aspect.

In traditional astrology, planets are considered to have something like an aura or radius of influence surrounding them - their orbs - and the half-point or moiety of their combined orbs is that point at which they begin to have direct effects on one another by aspect (i.e. they are then said to be "within orb" of one another). In traditional astrology, planets (not aspects) have orbs: the aspect is simply an angular relationship that describes the manner in which planets' orbs combine.

Planets' orbs vary in diameter. In Lilly's schema, the Sun has the widest orb at 17 degrees; next comes the Moon at 12.5, then Jupiter 12, Saturn 10, Venus 8, Mars 7.30 and Mercury 7. (Some other traditional astrologers assign different but similar orb values to the planets.)

To find out if significators are within orb, we add the number of degrees comprising each planet's orb and divide that number by two, arriving at their moiety - the point at which they begin to actively influence one another through the medium of an aspect. For example, Sun (17 degrees) plus Jupiter (12 degrees) equals 29 degrees; divided by two, we get 14.5 degrees. So when Jupiter and the Sun are within 14.5 degrees of forming an aspect, they are said to be within orb, and if they are applying we sit up and take notice of other conditions affecting them. It should be noted that, technically, a conjunction is not an aspect, but a bodily conjoining - though for ease of discussion, we often refer to the conjunction as an aspect.

This might be too much information, but at some point in the study of perfection you will need to have it.

Minderwiz
15-02-2012, 02:56
No to both.

Shame because if your current Landlord had been a near neighbour, the chart would clearly be for the current neighbours, not the future ones. Coming back to the question, it really is one of those situations where the Astrologer needs to be fully clear as to the situation of the question. I really can see my original argument and Astraea's use of the fifth as both being valid depending on the precise circumstances of the question. If it relates solely and exclusively to the situation after you have moved there's a strong argument for the third being used for the new neighbours. If there's any comparison with or contrast to the existing neighbours, as Astraea infers, then you would need an additional significator for the new neighbours, either using the fifth house ruler, or using Mars as the ruler of the next sign.

I would normally follow the principle of using the fifth as the best house for the new neighbours in those circumstances but with the third cusp on the verge of entering Scorpio and Mars prominent in your first house I would be very tempted to use Mars. It's again one of those situations in which personal judgement does come into horary. It is not just following a set of rules in a slavish manner. All sets of rules (including the legal system) cannot cover every single instance that you can think up. That's why judges are needed in the legal system and why horary and natal Astrology were referred to as 'judicial' Astrology.

Astraea
15-02-2012, 03:12
I really can see my original argument and Astraea's use of the fifth as both being valid depending on the precise circumstances of the question. If it relates solely and exclusively to the situation after you have moved there's a strong argument for the third being used for the new neighbours....It's again one of those situations in which personal judgement does come into horary. It is not just following a set of rules in a slavish manner. All sets of rules (including the legal system) cannot cover every single instance that you can think up. That's why judges are needed in the legal system and why horary and natal Astrology were referred to as 'judicial' Astrology.
Amen to that! Your last sentence sums up the situation so well.

Lee
15-02-2012, 07:26
Generally speaking, closely applying significators send the clearest message. If planets are applying with several degrees between them, there is a greater opportunity for another planet to interfere with the perfection of an aspect (or for a significator to leave a sign or house) than if only a degree or two were involved. So the closer significators are by degree to completing an aspect, the greater the opportunity for them to perfect the aspect.
Thanks, that makes good sense.
To find out if significators are within orb, we add the number of degrees comprising each planet's orb and divide that number by two, arriving at their moiety - the point at which they begin to actively influence one another through the medium of an aspect. For example, Sun (17 degrees) plus Jupiter (12 degrees) equals 29 degrees; divided by two, we get 14.5 degrees. So when Jupiter and the Sun are within 14.5 degrees of forming an aspect, they are said to be within orb, and if they are applying we sit up and take notice of other conditions affecting them.
Perfect! That's exactly the kind of information I was looking for.
This might be too much information, but at some point in the study of perfection you will need to have it.Not too much at all -- rather, the perfect amount!

Astraea
15-02-2012, 07:27
Maybe the reason Lee's chart presents such difficulties (re signification of the neighbors) is that two considerations before judgement are present - the Moon is in the last degree of the Via Combusta, and the Lord of the Ascendant is combust. Lilly warns that it is not safe to judge when the Moon is in the Via Combusta; and he says that if the Lord of the Ascendant is combust, the question as propounded will not "take."

Glad the aspect information fit the bill, Lee!

Lee
15-02-2012, 07:28
All sets of rules (including the legal system) cannot cover every single instance that you can think up. That's why judges are needed in the legal system and why horary and natal Astrology were referred to as 'judicial' Astrology.A very interesting analogy! And a good one for me as I work in the legal system.

Minderwiz
15-02-2012, 08:25
That's why I chose it :) :) :)

idyll
15-02-2012, 10:10
Awesome :)

I'll post my location/the time I finalize the question at here, so that if you'd prefer to draw the chart for that time you can.. I'll probably draw one for that time and at least try to walk through it at some point over the next day or 2. Once I do so, I'll post it :)

I was torn between 2 questions, but I think there's one that's taken more importance for me right now, which is:

Will M and I have any kind of relationship in the next 2 months (so by around mid April)?

Background for this: M and I were very close, and have fallen out of contact in the past month or so although the doors are still more or less open for communication (there's a history here of being a bit on/off in each others lifes). We used to be romantically involved, but more recently were trying to build more of a friendship.

By relationship in this circumstance I mean any kind of relationship that is stable and consistent, whether it be one of friendship or one that is more romantic. It could even be a friendship where we only meet up for coffee once a month to catch up.. as long as it's predictable/consistent and there is no longer a question if we are or are not a part of each other's lifes.

Hope that's enough details to make my question correct, if not just let me know :)

When I draw this chart, I'll be drawing it for 2:08PM, with the location being Waterloo, Ontario, Canada.

Okay.. I tried to pull this up on my own using Morinus, but I have gotten rather confused along the way.

I was able to pull up some of the info before Morinus got the better of me, so I think my main questions coming out of trying this are how to find any important information in Morinus that I may be missing, and also how to interpret all of the information together (I'm not completely sure where to start with that, even with what I do have).

Chart Info: Waterloo, Ontario, Canada (43°28′N 80°31′W) at 14:08, GMT -5, no daylight savings

Significators:
For me, 1st house, Moon in Scorpio in the 5th
For M I used the 7th house for relationships/partners, Saturn in Libra in the 5th

Does it mean anything that both significators are in the same house?

Dignities
Admittedly, I got a bit confused trying to look these up, I used the Almutens -> Points option in Morinus, but I'm pretty sure I probably missed something while doing this.

From my best guess I think Moon is Peregrine which would be -5

and Saturn would be
+ 4 for being exalted
+ 3 for being in its own triplicity

Would I also look at the planets that rule the sign that the significators are in? Also, how would I know what the accidental dignities would be?

There are not aspects that directly connect the Moon/Saturn.

So this is as far as I got before getting a bit overwhelmed. I'm not sure how/where in Morinus to look to tell if there are other dignities involved here, or how to interpret even the ones that I have.

I know Minderwiz mentioned in one of the charts that Lilly allows for two other significators (Sun/Venus) to be used in relationship questions, would I use those here? If so, how do I connect them back create an overall view of the question?

Minderwiz
15-02-2012, 21:45
Thanks for the post, Idyll.

Before I go into any real detail I need to check the chart with you. I'm fairly sure you set the chart for 13 February 2012 and the remaining details are as given in your post above.

When I cast a chart for that date and the time and place given by you in the post above, I get the house positions that you describe and also with the Moon still in the fifth house, I'm sure it's not a day later (or even earlier). However can you please confirm that for me, as I don't want to do a reading based on an erroneous chart. I've attached a copy so you can double check that all is well.

Yes it has some significance that both significators are in the fith but probably no more than you are interested in a romance and M is the potential 'object' of your affections. However that does mean that the chart describes the situation (at least in so far as it conforms with what the subject of the question).

If the chart I cast is correct:

You are right, your significator is the Moon in the fifth House.

You are right, M's significator is Saturn also in the House

For the essential dignities you do use the table on almuten of the points, so again you are right.

Your score for Saturn's essential dignities is correct (4+3=7) M is very attractive (in terms of this question)

Your score for the Moon is not quite right, and this is due to Morinus giving an incomplete account in it's table. Morinus does not really handle the essential debilities of Detriment and Fall in any explicit manner. In this case The Moon is in Scorpio, the opposite sign to it's exaltation in Taurus. Thus the Moon is in Fall. Now that scores -4 (detriment would be -5 as it's the opposite sign to the planet's rulership - for the Moon that is Capricorn).

It could still be peregrine but to ensure it is so, Morinus forces you to check the table for any planet, in which the Moon has dignity. In this case those are Mars (5+3), Venus (2) and the Sun (1) as there is no planet that is exalted in Scorpio) there is no planet that scores 4. For each of these three planets, we need to check whether any one of them is in a dignity of the Moon. To do this you check to see if there's any score for these planets in the Moon's column. There is no score for Mars or Venus but there is a score for the Sun - 1 - What we have here is a mutual reception - the Sun and Moon are in one of each other's dignities . In this case a mutual reception by Face and that is very weak. Indeed the only thing it adds to the Moon is that it stops it being peregrine.

So the Moon's final score is -4 (in Fall) + 1 (mutual reception by Face) = -3. All that has done is to make the Moon slightly better off than your estimate but it's not really going to have a major influence here. The Moon is weak in essential dignity.

To me this calculation is a pain - other programs, such as Solar Fire, automatically detect mutual receptions and automatically score Detriment or Fall. So I think I might well email the authors of Morinus to see if that can be remedied. As I wouldn't particularly advise you to go out and spend a lot of $$$$$ on an expensive program you can use the table in Skyscript to check for Detriment and Fall. Even so, that will not automatically show mutual receptions.

There is no general need to look at the planets which rule the significators, though Mars for you and Venus for her aptly describes the situation of the question.

For the accidental dignities, most programs are a pain. Only Janus seems to do an automatic calculation. So you are again confined to using the table on Skyscript

The following article contains both tables together with an excellent summary of the essential dignities

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/dignities.html

For Accidental dignities the following (in order) are worth considering as a beginner:

House placement - both planets are in the fifth house (a succeedent house and one that trines the ascendant) and both score +3


Retrograde or Direct - Saturn is retrograde (-5) whereas the Moon is direct (normally this scores +5 but as the Moon cannot be retrograde I don't bother adding it into the score)

Close Aspects from benefics or malefics - Lilly uses only partile aspects here but the scoring allows you to give weaker aspects a score. However in this case there are no such aspects.

Later on you can add in the other accidental dignities due to the Sun/planet phase cycle, of these being combust or under the beams is perhaps the easiest to use because it signifies a difficulty in seeing and being seen.

You did very well in identifying the significators and their essential dignities. You've rightly identified that there's no applying aspect between Moon and Saturn.

We are left then with the following issues the first two of which are easily dealt with:

Is there any connection through translation or collection of light. The answer is no because the Moon is the fastest planet. so no other planet can aspect Saturn and then catch up with the Moon. Also Saturn is the slowest planet so no other planet will be aspected by the Moon and then wait for Saturn. In this case Saturn is retrograde so it's moving away from the Moon anyway.

Is there any connection between Moon and Saturn through antisica - No as both are in the same sign.

That leaves the issue you mentioned at the end of your post, can we use Venus and Sun as additional significators. Now if you had said stable romantic relationship, then I would answer yes - but you rather diluted your question by saying:

By relationship in this circumstance I mean any kind of relationship that is stable and consistent, whether it be one of friendship or one that is more romantic. It could even be a friendship where we only meet up for coffee once a month to catch up.. as long as it's predictable/consistent and there is no longer a question if we are or are not a part of each other's lifes.

This relationship includes just being friends and I don't think the use of Sun and Venus is intended for 'friendships'. So you need to be clear in your intention - are you looking for romance (in which case we can try the additional significators) or are you looking for friendship (in which case they are not used). You have to be brutally honest with yourself here - if 'friendship' is simply to be near someone you have strong romantic desire for then we can use the additions. But a no answer means that you can't have a simple relationship of friendship (i.e. with no romantic feelings on your part).

Assuming the chart is correct and it's definitely romance that you are interested in, then I can go ahead and read for those additional significators.

Either way I'll do a summary of the reading for the chart, assuming it is correct.

idyll
16-02-2012, 02:42
Thanks for taking the time to go through all this Minderwiz! :)

Thanks for the post, Idyll.

Before I go into any real detail I need to check the chart with you. I'm fairly sure you set the chart for 13 February 2012 and the remaining details are as given in your post above.

When I cast a chart for that date and the time and place given by you in the post above, I get the house positions that you describe and also with the Moon still in the fifth house, I'm sure it's not a day later (or even earlier). However can you please confirm that for me, as I don't want to do a reading based on an erroneous chart. I've attached a copy so you can double check that all is well.

The chart you posted is the same as what I have


It could still be peregrine but to ensure it is so, Morinus forces you to check the table for any planet, in which the Moon has dignity. In this case those are Mars (5+3), Venus (2) and the Sun (1) as there is no planet that is exalted in Scorpio) there is no planet that scores 4. For each of these three planets, we need to check whether any one of them is in a dignity of the Moon. To do this you check to see if there's any score for these planets in the Moon's column. There is no score for Mars or Venus but there is a score for the Sun - 1 - What we have here is a mutual reception - the Sun and Moon are in one of each other's dignities . In this case a mutual reception by Face and that is very weak. Indeed the only thing it adds to the Moon is that it stops it being peregrine.

So the Moon's final score is -4 (in Fall) + 1 (mutual reception by Face) = -3. All that has done is to make the Moon slightly better off than your estimate but it's not really going to have a major influence here. The Moon is weak in essential dignity.

To me this calculation is a pain - other programs, such as Solar Fire, automatically detect mutual receptions and automatically score Detriment or Fall. So I think I might well email the authors of Morinus to see if that can be remedied. As I wouldn't particularly advise you to go out and spend a lot of $$$$$ on an expensive program you can use the table in Skyscript to check for Detriment and Fall. Even so, that will not automatically show mutual receptions.

Thanks for clearing that up, you're right it would be a lot easier to have a program that does that automatically but since I'm only just getting into this it's not really worth spending a lot on a program for that.



That leaves the issue you mentioned at the end of your post, can we use Venus and Sun as additional significators. Now if you had said stable romantic relationship, then I would answer yes - but you rather diluted your question by saying:


This relationship includes just being friends and I don't think the use of Sun and Venus is intended for 'friendships'. So you need to be clear in your intention - are you looking for romance (in which case we can try the additional significators) or are you looking for friendship (in which case they are not used). You have to be brutally honest with yourself here - if 'friendship' is simply to be near someone you have strong romantic desire for then we can use the additions. But a no answer means that you can't have a simple relationship of friendship (i.e. with no romantic feelings on your part).

Assuming the chart is correct and it's definitely romance that you are interested in, then I can go ahead and read for those additional significators.

Either way I'll do a summary of the reading for the chart, assuming it is correct.

You're right - I did dilute the question.
I am primarily interested in a romantic relationship with him.

Minderwiz
16-02-2012, 05:03
The chart you posted is the same as what I have

Thanks, I hoped I'd got it right and it's good to know I have



Thanks for clearing that up, you're right it would be a lot easier to have a program that does that automatically but since I'm only just getting into this it's not really worth spending a lot on a program for that.

That's a sensible approach, I could not in all conscience recommend spending $200 - $300. Most charged for Astrology programs are over priced, with some honourable exceptions such as John Halloran's Astrology for Windows. Sadly that is not geared to Horary



You're right - I did dilute the question.
I am primarily interested in a romantic relationship with him.

Thanks for the fixing the question as a romantic one, I can now revisit the chart and use those two additional significators

Lee
16-02-2012, 06:09
I could not in all conscience recommend spending $200 - $300.
Actually Janus is $149, so perhaps you should reconsider. :) (I don't have it, but I am considering it.)

Minderwiz
16-02-2012, 18:32
Actually Janus is $149, so perhaps you should reconsider. :) (I don't have it, but I am considering it.)

Actually I wasn't thinking of Janus there. but I still wouldn't advise a beginner to buy it before they had decided that Astrology was definitely for them :)

I like Janus and will definitely buy it. For someone who has taken the decision to buy a good program that handles traditional Astrology better than most, it's a great buy. For someone dipping their toe in it Morinus or Astrology for Windows is the best to use.

Lee
16-02-2012, 19:56
My apologies, Minderwiz, I thought you were talking about spending that much yourself. Of course now I see you didn't mean that -- I was tired last night and posted carelessly.

Minderwiz
17-02-2012, 05:30
Don't worry, I didn't take offence LOL :) :)

Minderwiz
17-02-2012, 06:27
The story so far The question was whether Idyll and M would enter a relationship by around mid April. The chart cast shows interest on the part of Idyll but no connections between the two significators Moon (Idyll) and Saturn (M) That is pointing to the conclusion that the interest will not be translated into reality. A clarification has shown that this relationship is romantic, rather than simply amicable, so two additional significators can be used...Venus for the female (Idyll) and the Sun for the male (M......So let's see whether the situation has changed.

Looking at Venus first, she is placed in Aries, her Detriment but she does have dignity by Terms, from 6 degrees to 14 degrees Aries. So her score is -3 and she is not peregrine. I'd interpret the weak essential dignity here as an indication that Idyll is vulnerable or feels vulnerable by showing her interest, risking the chance of failure. Venus is placed in the tenth - a strong placement, she is also direct and free from the Sun's beams, she is also conjunct the Part of Fortune (luck may be with her). Venus is making no aspect to Saturn, though as Saturn is in Libra and ruled by Venus, we could infer that M has some interest in Idyll. Sadly there's no connection between Venus and Saturn by antisicia or by translation of light or collection of light.

That leaves us the Sun. The Sun in Aquarius is ruled by Saturn and in his Detriment. The Sun is on the cusp of the ninth, the house of Dreams, prophecy and long distance travel. It's possible that this indicates that the question is based on dreams, but dreams here are clearly linked to prophecy. At 24 degrees Aquarius the Sun is in an applying trine to Saturn but sadly Saturn is also a significator of M, not Idyll. So is there any aspect to Venus or the Moon. In Aries, Venus will not form a major aspect to the Sun, nor are they in antiscial signs, nor is there any chance of translation or collection of light.

However, we also have to consider any aspects between Sun and Moon. Moon in Libra is in square to the Sun by sign. The angular separation is 12 degrees, rather wide but the Moon will apply to the Sun and the Sun will be the next planet the Moon aspects.

A few posts back we had a discussion about perfection through squares and oppositions. Lilly requires the significators to apply out of good houses (the ninth and the fith are not bad but are hardly the best houses, still they do have positive accidental dignity. (=3 and +2) but Liily also requires the planets to be in dignity in the degree in which they are placed. both Sun and Moon have negative essential dignity. So whilst perfection is possible it will only be with difficulty and probably won't work out.

I don't want to be too pessimistic but if you do get together it won't be easy let's just hope that Lilly is wrong.

Hispet
17-02-2012, 11:12
I would like to know how I did in interpreting this chart, and if I didn't do so well I am interested in learning what I missed or where I went wrong. This seems to be a lot harder to learn than I thought it would be initially, lol.

My Question; Will he and I reunite? We've been broken up for the past three months, so I wanted to see if there was any chance of us getting back together again.

I went through the line of suggestions, and I believe that this chart is readable. There is nothing to me that jumps out and says that it's not a readable chart. But I am a beginner, so I know there is a chance of error on my part.
In this chart, I would be represented by the moon being that the ascendant is in Cancer.

The quesited would be represented by the Seventh house. In this chart, the Seventh house is in Capricorn, so his signifactor in this question would be Saturn.

Essential dignity
The moon is in Sagittarius. By looking at the chart, I am in "terms" and "face" Now, I am assuming that this isn't such a good thing to find. I have a total of 5 points, so I don't think that I hold much power or sway in this situation. I appear to be more in detriment.

Saturn is in Libra. He scores a total of 7 points which shows that he has more power to influence things than I do.

Accidental Dignity
The moon falls in the 6th house, so once again I am in detriment. If the planet is in the 6th house, I would get -2

Saturn gains 4 points for being in the 4th house. But Saturn loses 5 points here because it is in retrograde, which would leave him at -1. Here, he is still a little stronger than me.

By looking at both Essential, and Accidental, I don't think that I have much power over if we reunite or not. I think that he has most of the power in this case.

Aspects
The Moon is Sextile Saturn in an applying aspect. I am guessing that would count being that these two planets are applying towards one another.

Judgement
Being that there is an applying aspect between myself and him, I think that there is a chance that we may reunite, but if that happens he will be the one holding the power to make it happen. I don't really have much pull over us getting back together or not.

Here is the link to the chart. http://img513.imageshack.us/img513/4260/horarylearning.gif

Minderwiz
18-02-2012, 09:22
I have been out for much of the day so I've not had chance to look at it but will reply tomorrow

Minderwiz
19-02-2012, 01:07
My Question; Will he and I reunite? We've been broken up for the past three months, so I wanted to see if there was any chance of us getting back together again.

I went through the line of suggestions, and I believe that this chart is readable. There is nothing to me that jumps out and says that it's not a readable chart. But I am a beginner, so I know there is a chance of error on my part.
In this chart, I would be represented by the moon being that the ascendant is in Cancer.

The quesited would be represented by the Seventh house. In this chart, the Seventh house is in Capricorn, so his signifactor in this question would be Saturn.

Yes you have correctly identified the significators :)


Essential dignity
The moon is in Sagittarius. By looking at the chart, I am in "terms" and "face" Now, I am assuming that this isn't such a good thing to find. I have a total of 5 points, so I don't think that I hold much power or sway in this situation. I appear to be more in detriment.

Saturn is in Libra. He scores a total of 7 points which shows that he has more power to influence things than I do.

You are correct for Saturn

The Moon in Sagittarius is Peregrine . It has no dignity at all. The Sign ruler is Jupiter, there's no planet in exaltation, the triplicity ruler is the Sun (it's a day chart) and the Terms are Mars and the Face is Saturn (all at the Moon's location). So the Moon has -5 points

However your conclusion is correct, you are the weaker party here - you're not sure of your way forward.


Accidental Dignity
The moon falls in the 6th house, so once again I am in detriment. If the planet is in the 6th house, I would get -2

Saturn gains 4 points for being in the 4th house. But Saturn loses 5 points here because it is in retrograde, which would leave him at -1. Here, he is still a little stronger than me.

By looking at both Essential, and Accidental, I don't think that I have much power over if we reunite or not. I think that he has most of the power in this case.

Saturn in the fourth is angular, he's in the best position to initiate anything, if he chooses. As Saturn is Retrograde, he's almost literally looking the other way.

The Moon in the sixth is indeed badly placed, the sixth is a cadent house and, it makes no major aspect to the Ascendant - it's out of the way and not easily seen.

Conclusion, at the moment you aren't sufficiently on his mind for him to act.


Aspects
The Moon is Sextile Saturn in an applying aspect. I am guessing that would count being that these two planets are applying towards one another.

Judgement
Being that there is an applying aspect between myself and him, I think that there is a chance that we may reunite, but if that happens he will be the one holding the power to make it happen. I don't really have much pull over us getting back together or not.

Yes there is an applying sextile between the Moon and Saturn and if perfected that would indeed suggest that you two reunite in the time period. However, the bad news is that before the Moon can sextile Saturn, it will sextile the Sun at 27 Aquarius.

In anything but a question on romance and relationships that would be an end to the matter. However, as it is about romantic relationship we have to consider two secondary sigificators. Venus for you, and the Sun for him. Now I don't need to even look at Venus because in that last paragraph I identified a close applying aspect between Sun and Moon. This actually means that your conclusion is correct.

Does he have mood swings or have two distinct sides to his character? It's almost as if one side of him doesn't want to know at all and the other side steps in and over-rules that attitude.

Anyway the outlook appears to be quite good, though he will be the one who is most likely to get things going.

Here is the link to the chart.

Hispet
19-02-2012, 12:10
Yes you have correctly identified the significators :)



You are correct for Saturn

The Moon in Sagittarius is Peregrine . It has no dignity at all. The Sign ruler is Jupiter, there's no planet in exaltation, the triplicity ruler is the Sun (it's a day chart) and the Terms are Mars and the Face is Saturn (all at the Moon's location). So the Moon has -5 points

However your conclusion is correct, you are the weaker party here - you're not sure of your way forward.

You are correct. I am very confused right now. What was kind of interesting about this being that the Moon is in Sagittarius, is that in my natal chart my moon is also in Sagittarius, and his Sun is in Sagittarius in his natal.



Saturn in the fourth is angular, he's in the best position to initiate anything, if he chooses. As Saturn is Retrograde, he's almost literally looking the other way.

The Moon in the sixth is indeed badly placed, the sixth is a cadent house and, it makes no major aspect to the Ascendant - it's out of the way and not easily seen.

Conclusion, at the moment you aren't sufficiently on his mind for him to act.

Me not being on his mind doesn't surprise me at all. He was the one that broke up with me because he decided he wanted to move to another state to go find himself. But I don't think he actually went anywhere. I saw him driving his car a couple weeks ago. So I don't think the moving is going as planned.



Yes there is an applying sextile between the Moon and Saturn and if perfected that would indeed suggest that you two reunite in the time period. However, the bad news is that before the Moon can sextile Saturn, it will sextile the Sun at 27 Aquarius.

In anything but a question on romance and relationships that would be an end to the matter. However, as it is about romantic relationship we have to consider two secondary sigificators. Venus for you, and the Sun for him. Now I don't need to even look at Venus because in that last paragraph I identified a close applying aspect between Sun and Moon. This actually means that your conclusion is correct.
Ok, I didn't know about the secondary signifactors. Do these only apply in questions about romantic relationships?

Does he have mood swings or have two distinct sides to his character? It's almost as if one side of him doesn't want to know at all and the other side steps in and over-rules that attitude.

Anyway the outlook appears to be quite good, though he will be the one who is most likely to get things going.

Here is the link to the chart.

He does seem to have mood swings, and yes I did see a completely different side to his personality during the break up. It seemed totally out of character.

Ronia
20-02-2012, 18:16
Minderwiz, please take a look at what I did here. The chart was cast on Feb 20, 2012, at 10:08 am in Sofia, Bulgaria.

Question: will I start a new committed relationship by the end of this year? Asc in Taurus, I'm Venus. She is in the 12th which is not good but it also shows that at this point I'd rather keep it secret which is true. Considering my son, I'd take it slowly and not demonstrating any relationship until I'm sure it's worth it. Also, I just don't feel like showing off any personal development, too many complications around me. He is Mars, ruler of the 7th, placed in the 5th - a lover? Or he will be in love? Good placement by house?

Venus and Mars are both in detriment but Venus is in her own terms, some dignity here. She is also in Mars's sign, is she depending on him? How to read this? Mars is in Venus's triplicity and has just left Venus's terms, is this mutual reception or is he leaving her influence, so to speak? But I don't know this man, so this is probably not the correct answer.

There is no aspect between Venus and Mars. But the Moon (my co-ruler) is forming an exact applying biquintil to Mars and I read that this is considered a bit of a "lucky circumstances" aspect, do we consider minor aspects? Next aspect the Moon will form is a sextile to Venus, so I thought the Moon here is carrying light, am I correct and is this a positive answer. The Sun (if I take it as the man's co-ruler) is applying to a semisquare to Venus but will form a quintile to the Ascendent prior to that, should I take the aspect to the Asc in consideration or go straightly to the aspect to venus?

Overall, it seems to me there may be some luck involved, it may be something very small that may come my way thans to the help of someone else (Moon?). Correct or wrong?

Thank you!

Minderwiz
21-02-2012, 06:55
Hi Ronia,

I have 29 degrees 30 minutes of Taurus rising fopr this chart, so this is very much a late degree chart. Personally I wouldn't read for this chart, a small error in your timing or in where you are compared to the co-ordinates listed in the program might well tip the Ascendant into Gemini.

I know Dave has a thing about accuracy and claims that modern ephemerides are far more accurate than seventeenth century ones, which may well be true. However the greatest source of error is in both the timing done for the event (be it natal or a horary) and the geographical location used by the program that performs the calculation. compared to where you actually are. In total these may be quite small but they are not insignificant.

Sofia, like any large city covers several minutes of arc from one side to the other. That can usually be ignored but when you are so near to a sign boundary, coupled with even a small error in timing (for example your clock is 1 minutes slow) and the Ascendant is wrongly placed.

I'd follow the old rule and need at minimum 2 degrees and preferably 3 rising at the beginning of a sign and at least 28 degrees (but prefrably 27) rising at the other end.

The best thing to do in such circumstances is either wait till later in the day, or try again the following day.

In answer to your other questions, No, biquintiles are not really an acceptable applying aspect, we need something much stronger, which is why the major aspects are used. Lilly was perfectly award of minor aspects and even mentions them in his Book III on natal Astrology but he never uses them in Horary. The same goes for the other minor aspects - they are at best clutching at straws and at worst insignificant in a Horary reading.

Ronia
21-02-2012, 16:22
Hm, no, the chart had an Ascendant in the middle of Taurus... Weird. I'll try next month again. :) THanks for the clarification on minor aspects, I hope I got the rulers and the Moon carrying light correctly - as a learning exercise, it's the first time I see the "carrying light" thing!

Barleywine
24-02-2012, 00:29
This isn't a horary question but rather a report of horary success. A couple of weeks ago we went away and when we returned I discovered that my heirloom ring (maternal grandfather's ring) was missing. I thought maybe I had left it at the hotel. But then I remembered deciding not to wear it since my finger was swollen, so we were pretty sure I didn't take it along. (Although I didn't put it in its customary drawer when I took it off.)

I spent a few days turning out all the drawers and looking under everything I could think of, to no avail. So yesterday it occurred to me to try a horary chart. I used the time that the idea crossed my mind as the time of the question. According to my reference books, jewelry is ruled by Venus and is associated with the 5th House. I couldn't find any obvious mention of "maternal grandfather's valuables" unless it would be the 2nd House since the mother's father is indicated by the 1st House. In the chart, Venus is located in the 12th house, intercepted in Aries. Pisces is on the cusp of the 12th. Venus is disposited by Mars in Virgo in the 5th House and Mars is disposited by Mercury in Pisces in the 11th House. Venus and Mars are in close quincunx. The 2nd House ruler, Mercury, is closely opposed Mars. The 5th House ruler, Sun, is in early Pisces in the 11th House.

The condition of Venus led me to believe the ring was in a closet or drawer, and that it was doubly hidden considering the interception. I also figured that it was up off the floor. First I went back through all of the luggage we took and all of the likely drawers, then I started on the closets. Knowing my penchant for hiding valuables when I leave, I looked under and inside all my hats on the top shelves (thinking Aries), then I started looking in the pockets of all the winter coats I may have been considering taking on the trip. I finally found the ring in the pocket of a winter vest.

What happened was I had the vest on as we were getting ready to leave, then decided to wear something different instead. At the same time I took the ring off and absent-mindedly put it in its case and stuck that in the vest pocket. We were rushing around trying to get out the door so I didn't put it back where it belonged. Then I took off the vest and hung it in a closet. I never thought about the ring again until a few days after we got back.

After I did the chart and figured out where to focus my search, it took me only an hour to locate the ring. I probably would not have found it otherwise until next winter. This was an interesting case study, and fortunately I didn't have to get any deeper into the chart analysis.

Minderwiz
24-02-2012, 08:07
That's a great account and isn't it such a good feeling when the chart works out :)

Barleywine
24-02-2012, 12:05
That's a great account and isn't it such a good feeling when the chart works out :)

I was thrilled, both with the astrology and with getting the ring back. I neglected to mention that Venus ruled the Taurus Ascendant and the Part of Fortune was in Taurus and angular, so I had no doubt the ring would turn up

I was also fascinated with the secondary undercurrents in the chart, even though I didn't delve deeply enough to see if they played a part in the outcome. As I said, my mother's father was represented by the 1st House (4th from the 10th) and his moveable possessions (of which the ring was a valuable one) by the 2nd House . The 5th House would have been connected with the maternal grandfather's jewelry, and the ruler of the 5th was the Sun in the 11th House. The ring was a token of appreciation and recognition that he received from his company when he retired. It came to me as an inheritance, and the ruler of the 8th House, Jupiter, was also in Taurus in the 12th, sitting just above the Ascendant, sextile to the Sun and also dispositing it. Perhaps, like the One Ring, this one just willed itself to be found :)

Ronia
27-02-2012, 18:18
I have a question: which house would signify a meeting or a date? Not a relationship but just a first meeting or a possible date? Thank you.

And another one: how to read the chart if the significator is the same for the person and the question?

Barleywine
29-02-2012, 21:50
I have a question: which house would signify a meeting or a date? Not a relationship but just a first meeting or a possible date? Thank you.

And another one: how to read the chart if the significator is the same for the person and the question?

Casual interpersonal meetings and "possible first dates" would seem to be a 5th House "affair" (pun fully intended :))

I never thought about your second point. I would probably try to carefully think through the question to see if it in fact has an "outlet" in one of the other houses. If not, I might use a method other than horary to explore it. Others with more horary experience can probably give you a better answer.

Minderwiz
29-02-2012, 23:16
I'm just emerging from a 3 day bug, :(

On the date, I'd agree with Barleywine, unless the question is focussed on a the person who is being 'dated'

For example, 'Will the date be a success?' is fifth house

Will I get on with X when we go on our date? is seventh house - it's about another person, rather than the activity. Note that this would not be a relationship question so there's no use of the Sun and Venus as secondary significators

On the issue of the same significator - I'm assuming here you mean a situation something like, a question about the querent's hobby of jewellery design has a Gemini Ascendant and Virgo on the cusp of the fifth house (dealing with hobbies)

- Use the exaltation planet for the sign in question, though that's not always possible (neither Gemini or Virgo have an exaltation planet)

- Use a planet that's in the quesited's house, in the example above you see that Mars is in Virgo in the fifth, so you could use that as the significator of the hobby

- use a natural significator of the thing quesited, for example Venus for jewellery or indeed hobbies and fun.

Barleywine
29-02-2012, 23:58
On the issue of the same significator - I'm assuming here you mean a situation something like, a question about the querent's hobby of jewellery design has a Gemini Ascendant and Virgo on the cusp of the fifth house (dealing with hobbies)

- Use the exaltation planet for the sign in question, though that's not always possible (neither Gemini or Virgo have an exaltation planet)

- Use a planet that's in the quesited's house, in the example above you see that Mars is in Virgo in the fifth, so you could use that as the significator of the hobby

- use a natural significator of the thing quesited, for example Venus for jewellery or indeed hobbies and fun.

Hope you're feeling better. Somehow I had the notion that Ronia is talking about a situation where the querent and the quesited would be represented by the same house. Can't think of an example question off-hand, but I suppose it could be possible.

Ronia
01-03-2012, 06:12
Hi, thanks for the responses. The first situation was "Will Q have a date with B?" - is this fifth house or seventh?

The second situation is like Barleywine got it - I asked something about work (I don't have the chart any longer) and I and the work had the same significator, it was Mercury I recall. How do I proceed then?

Barleywine
01-03-2012, 08:52
Since "dates" (and especially first dates) are usually romanticized beforehand, with the anticipation of being fun, I would still say 5th house. If the question is whether it would lead to a more lasting relationship, it would look like 7th house to me. (But Minderwiz has already said that :))

Regarding the work-related question, 6th house is the querent's "job" and "co-workers" (also "employees" if that happens to apply in your case). Alternatively, if it's about career stability (like, for instance, getting promoted or fired), 10th house would be the focus area. But I'm not sure we're talking "apples and apples" here. I'm thinking house meanings, not planetary significators. I know in astro-geomancy it's possible to have the same planet in multiple locations in the chart, but I'm having difficulty seeing how Mercury could appear more than once in a horary chart unless you're considering Mercury house placement as one instance and Mercury rulership of a significant house cusp as the second.

Ronia
01-03-2012, 21:04
:D Well, if the Ascendant is in Virgo, for example, and the job house (regardless 6th or 10th) starts in Gemini, what do you see? I see the ruler is the same - Mercury. Where am I wrong? Is there another ruler of those signs?

Barleywine
02-03-2012, 00:45
:D Well, if the Ascendant is in Virgo, for example, and the job house (regardless 6th or 10th) starts in Gemini, what do you see? I see the ruler is the same - Mercury. Where am I wrong? Is there another ruler of those signs?

Ah, now I see that you're talking rulerships, and wherever Mercury is would be relevant to both houses. It could only be 1st-10th, though, since Gemini couldn't be on the 6th cusp with a Virgo Ascendant. If the work question is about a decision to be made that affects the querent, I would look at the condition of Mercury in the chart (dignified or debilitated by sign and house, aspects to any planets in the 1st, 6th and 10th, aspects to the ruler of the 6th and to Saturn with its 10th house affinity). It should also reveal something about the querent's objective mental outlook on, or (especially if the Moon is involved) subjective preoccupation with, the work or career issue. But that's just basic astrology. Minderwiz or another of our more experienced "horarians" (Astrae, is it?) can be more specific than I can.

Ronia
02-03-2012, 03:11
Huh, this sounds complicated... I'll wait for another chart like that to post it, I can't do this myself, it seems.

Minderwiz
02-03-2012, 06:53
The situation seems to be the one that I addressed, albeit with a different example.

If the Ascendant is Virgo and the job (10th) is Gemini:

Start by assigning Mercury to the querent:

Then check the tenth for any planet in Gemini and in the tenth, if so use that as the significator of the job.

If there is no planet in Gemini and the tenth, go for a natural ruler of career, profession and social status - the Sun is the obvious one, for any job. If the querent has told you the type of job, then you might choose a bit more selectively - jupiter for any legal profession or for any religious profession, Mars for the armed services or the police or security services or the security industry, Venus for arts, including the performing arts, fashion, entertainment, leisure, would be some examples.


The same principles apply where you have Jupiter ruling both houses, though there things are a little easier as you can use Venus as the exaltation planet in Pisces.

For Aquarius and Capricorn, you have Mars exalted in Capricorn as the exaltation planet.

For Taurus and Libra you have Moon in Taurus and Saturn in Libra, so there's always a deputy standing by :)

For Scorpio and Aries you have the Sun exalted in Aries.

However in all cases check to see if there's a suitable planet in the house, before choosing the exaltation planet and even then, if an obvious natural significator is available, it's always worth considering.

As you get more experienced you might find situations in which you find it 'fits' better to use a different significator for the querent but don't do that till your confident about your methodology.

There are some questions that are solely about the querent in themselves or in regard to their homes. In these questions the Ascendant ruler signifies both the querent and the quesited. In that case follow Barleywine's suggestion about judging on the basis of the condition of the Lord of the Ascendant.

I'd only use the sixth for a job, if I was the employer or manager of the person doing it - for example if I was an employer considering the merits of a potential employee or asking the question 'Will the plumber turn up to mend my leaking tap?' - the plumber is my 'servant' for this particular task and I'm his/her 'employer' if only for a brief time.

On using the seventh for a date:

'Will Q have a date with B?' is a seventh house issue as it involves two separate people who are not connected in any other way. 'Will Q go on a date with his/her friend B?' moves the question to the eleventh because B's current relationship with Q is not just any two people or even two named but unrelated people.

Sometimes you have to think a bit to know what the querent is really asking

'Will I get a date next month?' could be a question asked by someone who just wants to go on a date no strings attached to get out of the house, or who would like to go on a date for a good night out and some fun. In such cases I would use the fifth house, the question really is about the activity and about having a good time.

If the same question is asked by someone and you feel that they are really looking for more than a date - they see it as hopefully being the start of a long term romance, then the question shifts to the seventh - it's the relationship of two people that has become important, not having a good night out. How do you know which it is - you ask the querent, as nicely as possible, what his/her hopes are, plus you get a feeling from talking to them what they are really looking for.

Ronia
02-03-2012, 07:37
Thanks, Minderwiz. It's a bit difficult to picture it now, too bad I didn't save the chart. I'll try to get another similar chart and apply what you've written here. I'm a visual person and get lost in reading. Pictures work better for me. LOL

Still, what if there is more than one planet in Gemini in the 10th house in your job example? Which of two planets (for example) I should choose? Intuitive?

Minderwiz
03-03-2012, 07:09
Thanks, Minderwiz. It's a bit difficult to picture it now, too bad I didn't save the chart. I'll try to get another similar chart and apply what you've written here. I'm a visual person and get lost in reading. Pictures work better for me. LOL

Still, what if there is more than one planet in Gemini in the 10th house in your job example? Which of two planets (for example) I should choose? Intuitive?

Two possible ways of deciding:

Either take the one nearest the House cusp - that is the one in the earliest degree of Gemini and still in the tenth House.

Or take the one that seems to fit the situation best - if you have say Venus and Mars (in that order) and the question is about a job in the security industry, then Mars would be the better choice, even though it's further from the cusp.

There's no hard and fast rule on this, just as there's no rule that says you have to take a planet in the house over the exaltation planet, or indeed that you can't use the triplicity ruler. Experience can help obviously, so can knowlege of what planets naturally symbolise and sometimes if more than two houses are concerned (such as questions about the sale of property or possessions, or questions about items lost, mislaid or stolen), you may find that your choice can be quite dramatically narrowed, and you have to make some hard decisions on which planet to use as a significator for each of the 'items' you are considering.

Ronia
03-03-2012, 17:20
OK, next time when I get such a chart I'll just post it here first and I'll rely on some help with this. Thanks for the guidance, I'll keep all this in mind! :)

Ronia
03-03-2012, 18:10
Here is a chart I cast for myself, 10:50 am on March 3, Sofia, Bulgaria; question "Will I meet JL this year?" I take 1st and 7th house rulers first. I'm Mercury, he is Jupiter. There is no aspect. Mercury is in the terms of Jupiter, Jupiter is in the face of Mercury. How should I read these?

If I take the Moon as me, she is in Cancer in her home, in the terms of Jupiter and in his exaltation but she's separating from him, weird as I've never met JL before. Jupiter on the other hand is past the exaltation degree of the Moon in Taurus but isn't exaltation by sign?

However, Moon is applying to a trine with the Sun and there won't be another major aspect before that. And here I get a bit confused how to decipher all the connections both planets have to Jupiter by terms, face, etc. Moon in 9 degrees Cancer is in the exaltation of Jupiter, and in his terms. Sun in 13 degrees Pisces is in the terms of Jupiter and in his face. Does this add to the trine somehow? The Moon is in the 2nd house, the Sun on the cusp of the 11th but still in the 10th. Connection through work/career? Business meeting? But this is highly unlikely, we're so far in terms of business... Is the trine and the reception to Jupiter enough here to say "yes"?

What does the North Node mean on the DC? Is it significant somehow? And Pars of Fortune in the 5th? How do they add to the picture?

P.S. By the way, if I had just asked if I was going to have a date soon, this chart would also have had the same ruler for me and the question - Mercury for the 1st and Mercury for the 5th house, and there is no other planet in the 5th (I don't know how to read Pars of Fortune there), so I'd have had the same issue - how to proceed with same ruler and no other planet in the 5th house.

Minderwiz
04-03-2012, 09:19
The question is about a meeting, not about romance so the secondary significators are not used. That leaves us with Mercury and Jupiter plus the Moon as a co-significator for you or him, as needed.

The mutual reception of Jupiter (in the Face of Mercury) and Mercury (in the Terms of Juptier) shows a mutual attraction but not a strong one, more on your part than his - in his case it means he won't dislike you, rather than he'll fall head over heals in love But it's a fair start

The separation of the Moon from Jupiter isn't necessarily an indication of a past connection, it could simply mean the opportunity is passing. However Moon, Jupiter is a better proposition in terms of mutual reception, as you point out Taurus is the Moon's exaltation and Cancer is Jupiter's. The trine aspect, though not applying strengthens the connection. So we have a mutual reception which is much stronger and may be enough to deliver a 'yes' answer. If this had been a 'romance' question I would have felt it very strongly points to a 'yes' answer, if JL was someone that you'd had some contact with - even if only by online means or through letters or email. As it is, there's a good indicator of a meeting.

Indeed if it were a romance question, I'd have used the Sun as a second significateor of him and concluded very strongly on a 'yes' answer. But as you've confined it to a meeting (and not even a date) I have to ignore the Sun and the Moon/Sun trine and for that matter the fifth House. I'd say you have a good chance of that meeting but not the certainty of it.

Incidentally, yes there are exaltation degrees and they may have once had a real significance but even by early medieval time they were secondary to the sign as a a measure of planetary strength.

Ronia
04-03-2012, 15:40
Ah! Thank you Minderwiz! I keep making mistakes but I hope with the time things will start falling into places! At least, there is a ray of light there. :) Seems I'm choosing some of the significators properly and started reading the dignities a little bit. :)

Ronia
27-03-2012, 03:47
I have a quick question: I did a chart, question being will A marry B this year? A's significator the Sun applies for a trine to 7th house significator Saturn. No other aspects prior to that, Asc and Moon are OK. Do I need to investigate the chart further or is the applying trine between the significators of 1 and 7 houses enough for a positive answer?

Minderwiz
27-03-2012, 18:21
I have a quick question: I did a chart, question being will A marry B this year? A's significator the Sun applies for a trine to 7th house significator Saturn. No other aspects prior to that, Asc and Moon are OK. Do I need to investigate the chart further or is the applying trine between the significators of 1 and 7 houses enough for a positive answer?

When did you do the chart? If it was a few weeks back with Sun in Aquarius, then this looks very promising for a wedding. Just double check that neither Sun nor Saturn will be aspected by a third planet before thchartne is perfected. If its a day chart the things will be even stronger with Saturn as the Air triplicity ruler. if you find no impediments on your double check then you can feel reasonably safe in your prediction - assuming the chart is radical, so double check that too.

If its a chart cast in the last few days then there is no tribe trine forming between Sun in Aries and Saturn in Libra, so you need to recheck your chart completely. And yes, I've 'seen' aspects that weren't there in the past and found the error on a double or even triple check :-)

Ronia
27-03-2012, 19:47
It was about two or three weeks ago, I'll check back but towards the beginning of this month. Thanks, Mnderwiz, I'll go back and double check all you suggested! :)

Ok, here is what I checked and got:
Asc in 20 Leo - querent = Sun
Moon in 19 Capricorn (not Via Combusta), still has aspects to come (one of which is a square to Saturn though)
Dsc in 20 Aquarius - partner = Saturn

Sun in last degree of Aquarius ia applying for a trine to Saturn in last degree of Libra. I know the last degrees are critical but don't know how to decipher it here. Otherwise there won't be another aspect before this one, they are only minutes apart. I also see the Sun is not in its best shape while Saturn is exalted but is the applying trine here enough to say "yes"?

I also checked the houses - Sun in the 7th, yes, the querent wants this marriage. Saturn is in the 3rd for the querent but 9th for himself, he is a foreigner and it will be a second marriage for him. The Moon is in the 5th house, yes, she is in love. She is also in the sign of Saturn.

That's what I got. The main question being is the trine enough or not?

Ronia
31-03-2012, 05:32
OK, I'll tell this person the answer is "yes" then.

Cosmos
02-04-2012, 11:19
Hey!
I have been trying to read through this whole thread and I'm really amazed by it..
You are pretty awesome Minderwiz! :D

I have casted a chart but I'm having trouble reading it.. would you be so kind and help me on this one?

I have this thing with this guy, well I'm not sure what that is, you see we have been "friends" for a very long time, we even tried long-distance (yeah we live in different countries which is a big problem) but it didn't work very well.. so we've dated other people but that never really worked either. We were talking about it the other day and he said he wonders if we'll find our way back to eachother. If we will ever meet up..

I'd really like to know are we going to meet up eventually..

Thanks in advance sweets!

Rio de Janeiro Brazil
21:12
04/01/2012

I have the chart here but I'm having a hard time posting it, I'm sorry..

Minderwiz
02-04-2012, 17:54
I'll always help anyone who calls me "sweets" :) Don't worry about trying to post a graphic chart, just post the time date and place of your chart and most importantly the question you asked.

Please put the date in the format of day, month, year - 2 April 2012 is unambiguous, 02/04/2012 means the same to all but Americans who would see the latter as 4 February 2012. I've got caught with this so often in the past that I now always double check :). Similarly please use 24 hour clock or ensure it's clearly AM or PM. so I don't get the chart 12 hours out :)

Fezzi
02-04-2012, 23:39
Ok, so I know very little about astrology, but this was just too interesting! I figured if I can get through one of these and things start to click, I'll work with it some more.

So, step 1, finding the significators. This is all Greek to me, so, tell me if I have this right....Scorpio is my ascendant, so my significator would be it's ruling planet Mars? And when asking about a romantic relationship, a specific person, the descendant is Taurus, so his significators will be Venus?

So I'll need to pay attention to what house these planets are in, and what planets are in the 5th and 7th house?

Am I on the right track here?

Minderwiz
03-04-2012, 06:14
So, step 1, finding the significators. This is all Greek to me, so, tell me if I have this right....Scorpio is my ascendant, so my significator would be it's ruling planet Mars? And when asking about a romantic relationship, a specific person, the descendant is Taurus, so his significators will be Venus?

Yes you've got that right. You are signified by Mars, and he is signified by Venus



So I'll need to pay attention to what house these planets are in, and what planets are in the 5th and 7th house?

Am I on the right track here?

Having correctly identified the two significators, your next step is to make a judgement about their strength and ability to act in this situation. Planets in the seventh may have some bearing (if this case only Venus is in the seventh, so that will be considered in your evaluation of Venus). Planets in the fifth are not necessarily relevant here, unless they are or will aspect one or both of the two significators, or unless they aspect the Ascendent/Descendent.

Evaluation of Mars and Venus is two stage:

Firstly evaluate their essential dignity in their current (chart) zodiacal positions

Secondly evaluate their accidental dignity, that really boils down to house placement, their relationship to the Sun (e.g. retrograde or combust), and any aspects from other planets which might be helpful or which might hinder.

Taking essential dignity first, just as a starter, you should be able to identify that Venus is in Taurus, her own sign - so she's strong in essential dignity. Mars on the other hand is in Virgo, which is not a particularly good sign for Mars. Usually Mars would be Peregrine here, that is lacking some clear direction or control, however Mars does have a mutual reception with Mercury, as they are in each others Terms - Mars (you) might have a friend who can help but Terms are not very dignified, so you are the weaker of the two in this situation.

Taking accidental dignity, Mars is well placed in the tenth but that positioon is not as strong as it could be because the cusp is in Leo and Mars is in Virgo. Furthermore, Mars is retrograde, so this adds to the lack of control and direction.

Venus is in it's own house and in the seventh - a strong and self centred position - He is (at the moment) more concerned with his own interests but these don't particularly include
romance.

The next thing to consider is whether there is a change coming - that is will there be an aspect or other link between Mars and Venus, which might bring you two together. There is no aspect forming between Mars and Venus so our first way of identifying a possible coming together offers little hope.

Nor is any other planet in line to aspect Mars and Venus in turn (or be aspected by them in turn), so the second way of predicting a coming together (by way of a third party) does not look promising.

However the Moon acts as your co-significator, and the Moon is applying to Venus by antiscion (see some of the early posts to learn more about this). The coming contact between Moon and Venus offers a real chance of him noticing you

There's no strong reception here (that is one or other significator in a major dignity of the other) so whether this will become a serious relationship is by no means as certain - however the opportunity looks likely to materialise, whether you can develop it into something more is your challenge.

Minderwiz
03-04-2012, 08:56
OK, I'll tell this person the answer is "yes" then.


Did you also check for reception?- that is (preferably) the quesited's significator in one of the dignities of the querent, or the querent's significator in one of the dignities of the quesited's significator or even better a mutual reception between the two significators.

Did you also allow for the context - do these two people know each other, and to what extent? If they are already in something of a relationship then the answer is almost certainly 'Yes'

If they are acquainted but there is a reception between the significators, as well as the trine then the answer is probably yes, (or the relationship will intensify even if it doesn't immediately result in marriage)

If they don't know each other, then things are a bit more problematic. Trine plus reception indicates a good chance of a meeting or contact, resulting in attraction and which might develop, though the querent might have to act to get the ball rolling. If there's no reception at all, or the reception is the querent's significator in a dignity of that of the quesited then what you might have is hope that is strengthening but the feelings are not reciprocated by the quesited.

And of course, remember the golden rule - the stars incline, they do not compel. If the querent takes a yes answer to mean it's inevitable and sits back and waits for the quesited to throw themselves into his/her arms, it's virtually certain nothing will happen - having a favourable situation doesn't make things automatic - the situation has to be exploited by one or other party. They might be desperately in love with one another but if neither of them communicates this to the other then things won't happen!

Ronia
03-04-2012, 15:43
Well, I already said "yes". The worst case scenario is I'll be proven wrong. We'll see how things develop between them... Thanks for the clarification.

Cosmos
04-04-2012, 04:58
I'll always help anyone who calls me "sweets" :) Don't worry about trying to post a graphic chart, just post the time date and place of your chart and most importantly the question you asked.

Please put the date in the format of day, month, year - 2 April 2012 is unambiguous, 02/04/2012 means the same to all but Americans who would see the latter as 4 February 2012. I've got caught with this so often in the past that I now always double check :). Similarly please use 24 hour clock or ensure it's clearly AM or PM. so I don't get the chart 12 hours out :)

Aw you're very sweet indeed :D

Okies, here we go.. The question is: are we going too meet up someday, eventually?

I'm not sure that is a valid question but we have always wanted to meet up and we have been wondering about that a lot for the past few days.. Maybe in the end of the year or early next year. He says he wants to try and make it right but the distance is a big problem, ya know?

1 April 2012
21:12
Rio time zone
Rio de Janeiro, Brazil

Again, thank you so much for being so kind to try and help me out.

:)

Cosmos
04-04-2012, 05:00
I was looking at the chart and I don't see any aspects btw the main significators.. Which would be Jupiter and Mercury.. Us.

:/

Do you see anything that would work in our favor?

Fezzi
04-04-2012, 07:28
Yes you've got that right. You are signified by Mars, and he is signified by Venus

Haha great! I got the first step right!

Having correctly identified the two significators, your next step is to make a judgement about their strength and ability to act in this situation. Planets in the seventh may have some bearing (if this case only Venus is in the seventh, so that will be considered in your evaluation of Venus). Planets in the fifth are not necessarily relevant here, unless they are or will aspect one or both of the two significators, or unless they aspect the Ascendent/Descendent.

Evaluation of Mars and Venus is two stage:

Firstly evaluate their essential dignity in their current (chart) zodiacal positions

Secondly evaluate their accidental dignity, that really boils down to house placement, their relationship to the Sun (e.g. retrograde or combust), and any aspects from other planets which might be helpful or which might hinder.

Taking essential dignity first, just as a starter, you should be able to identify that Venus is in Taurus, her own sign - so she's strong in essential dignity. Mars on the other hand is in Virgo, which is not a particularly good sign for Mars. Usually Mars would be Peregrine here, that is lacking some clear direction or control, however Mars does have a mutual reception with Mercury, as they are in each others Terms - Mars (you) might have a friend who can help but Terms are not very dignified, so you are the weaker of the two in this situation.

Taking accidental dignity, Mars is well placed in the tenth but that positioon is not as strong as it could be because the cusp is in Leo and Mars is in Virgo. Furthermore, Mars is retrograde, so this adds to the lack of control and direction.

Venus is in it's own house and in the seventh - a strong and self centred position - He is (at the moment) more concerned with his own interests but these don't particularly include
romance.

The next thing to consider is whether there is a change coming - that is will there be an aspect or other link between Mars and Venus, which might bring you two together. There is no aspect forming between Mars and Venus so our first way of identifying a possible coming together offers little hope.

Nor is any other planet in line to aspect Mars and Venus in turn (or be aspected by them in turn), so the second way of predicting a coming together (by way of a third party) does not look promising.

However the Moon acts as your co-significator, and the Moon is applying to Venus by antiscion (see some of the early posts to learn more about this). The coming contact between Moon and Venus offers a real chance of him noticing you

There's no strong reception here (that is one or other significator in a major dignity of the other) so whether this will become a serious relationship is by no means as certain - however the opportunity looks likely to materialise, whether you can develop it into something more is your challenge.

Wow, ok, this is something I'm really going to have to sit down and really pick at to completely understand! I really need a base knowledge of astrology for this, so that's what I'm going to be working on....then I'll pick at it lol But thank you it's a great guide to help me understand!

But yes, your right about everything. He always does notice me, but that's the problem. We've been going through this cycle for 2 years, he notices me, we make plans together, then he just gets scared and I don't hear from him for a few months lol. This time he's been gone for about 6 months. He recently came back into my life, again, and said he wants to spend time with me....but at this point I want nothing to do with him unless he wants to get serious. So I can see there being an opportunity, but it's really up to him on what he wants to do, it's out of my control. So, mars (me) in retrograde, could that be saying just that? That things are out of my control?

Minderwiz
04-04-2012, 09:20
Thanks for the background. On the basis of what you say, I can add two further points. Venus (him) in in the Terms of Mars (you), so he has some interest in you. However this is not a strong reception, so I wouldn't say he's really as keen as he says he is. I'm not saying he's lying - he might well just be keen at the moment but not in any permanent way or keen on the idea rather than the substance of a relationship.

The other which mildly concerned me at the time was that Mars (you) in in the Fall of Venus (which is Virgo, the opposite sign to its exaltation in Pisces). If you were the person pursuing the relationship, then that could indicate simply that you are putting yourself in a vulnerable position but given your statement above, it's more likely to reflect your desire to have nothing to do with him at the moment (for the reasons you have explained).

I think you're right to be cautious here. If he really is serious he has to make more effort than he has done up to now and he's going to have to work hard to convince you that he's not going to disappear again (into his own world).

On the additional reading, Horary is different from modern Astrology, so if you're looking for a book have a look at the texts in the recommeded reading thread. You'll also find a lot or material and resources on Skyscript ( http://www.skyscript.co.uk/ )

Fezzi
05-04-2012, 00:29
Thanks for the background. On the basis of what you say, I can add two further points. Venus (him) in in the Terms of Mars (you), so he has some interest in you. However this is not a strong reception, so I wouldn't say he's really as keen as he says he is. I'm not saying he's lying - he might well just be keen at the moment but not in any permanent way or keen on the idea rather than the substance of a relationship.

So, by reception...is that how these two planets react? But yeah, I think he's sincere in the moment, until he actually thinks about it. I think the big issue is that he wants me in his world, he doesn't want to integrate our two worlds together...he's just not ready for it.

The other which mildly concerned me at the time was that Mars (you) in in the Fall of Venus (which is Virgo, the opposite sign to its exaltation in Pisces). If you were the person pursuing the relationship, then that could indicate simply that you are putting yourself in a vulnerable position but given your statement above, it's more likely to reflect your desire to have nothing to do with him at the moment (for the reasons you have explained).

Actually, is it possible it could be both? I'm actually in a relationship now that just terrible but dont have the financial means to leave so yes, i'm pretty valnerable. Not sure if that's the hold up or if it even matters. But at the same time I really don't want anything to do with him if were just going to go in the same circle we always do.

I think you're right to be cautious here. If he really is serious he has to make more effort than he has done up to now and he's going to have to work hard to convince you that he's not going to disappear again (into his own world).

On the additional reading, Horary is different from modern Astrology, so if you're looking for a book have a look at the texts in the recommeded reading thread. You'll also find a lot or material and resources on Skyscript ( http://www.skyscript.co.uk/ )

He actually puts in a lot of effort....he just needs to work on following through to the next step.

I've already started browsing skyscript, great site so far! Very helpful! Thank you! :)

Cosmos
05-04-2012, 04:32
Hey Minderwiz!

You know I was thinking maybe I asked the wrong question, should I cast another chart asking should I meet this guy, will it work out btw us if we tried to be together? Something along those lines, what do you think? Let me know, please :)

Thanks in advance.

Minderwiz
06-04-2012, 08:47
Hey Minderwiz!

You know I was thinking maybe I asked the wrong question, should I cast another chart asking should I meet this guy, will it work out btw us if we tried to be together? Something along those lines, what do you think? Let me know, please :)

Thanks in advance.

Your first question was not limited enough in terms of time frame - 'eventually' could mean any time in the next 60 years or so. A better period is between 3 months and a year depending on the circumstances.

'Will I meet him this year?'is a reasonable question, as is 'Should I meet him?' which carries an element of decision or choice on your part. 'Will it work out between us?' is similarly also a reasonable question, though it implies that the meeting will take place.

Go for what you really want to ask, and try to keep it as simple as possible in terms of a question - no 'ifs', 'buts' or 'ands' if you can possible help it. There's nothing stopping you asking supplementary questions - 'Will I meet him this year?' followed up by a second question such as 'Will we have a relationship?' which is asked if the answer to the first question is 'Yes'

Have a think about your question and then cast a chart only when you are sure you have the question that you want to ask. Don't worry if that takes a day or so, or even longer. What matters is that you feel that your question is the right one.

When you have the question and the chart, then post again and we'll have a look at it.

Cosmos
07-04-2012, 12:12
Your first question was not limited enough in terms of time frame - 'eventually' could mean any time in the next 60 years or so. A better period is between 3 months and a year depending on the circumstances.

'Will I meet him this year?'is a reasonable question, as is 'Should I meet him?' which carries an element of decision or choice on your part. 'Will it work out between us?' is similarly also a reasonable question, though it implies that the meeting will take place.

Go for what you really want to ask, and try to keep it as simple as possible in terms of a question - no 'ifs', 'buts' or 'ands' if you can possible help it. There's nothing stopping you asking supplementary questions - 'Will I meet him this year?' followed up by a second question such as 'Will we have a relationship?' which is asked if the answer to the first question is 'Yes'

Have a think about your question and then cast a chart only when you are sure you have the question that you want to ask. Don't worry if that takes a day or so, or even longer. What matters is that you feel that your question is the right one.

When you have the question and the chart, then post again and we'll have a look at it.


Hey!

You are absolutely right. I'm going to think about my question and cast a chart when I'm good and ready. :D

Is it normal to get anxious though? lol

Minderwiz
07-04-2012, 20:37
Hey!

You are absolutely right. I'm going to think about my question and cast a chart when I'm good and ready. :D

Is it normal to get anxious though? lol

Well if you are not anxious about your question, it is less likely to be significant to you and therefore more likely not to get a meaningful chart. Horary questions, like Tarot questions are not meant to be taken as trivial (in terms of their importance to you), so asking questions just for the sake of it, tends not to produce useful charts. A question which is of strong significance to you will produce a meaningful chart once you have got the issue clear in your mind.

lord_ewin
11-04-2012, 13:27
Very very nice things being done here...!! I've downloaded Morinus, cast my question: "Will our house sell within the next three months? (Mid June 2012)."

Now, I don't quite understand how to go about this, but here goes:

I did my own chart for it on April 10, 2012 at 10:49pm - in Orleans, Ontario, Canada (45.45N - 75.45W)

Significators:

So here's where I get confused... the main question is about a house, so would I use the 4th house as the first (Aries?); and the selling part as the 7th house (Taurus, but read is Gemini given it's getting close to Gemini)? Correct?

Fumbling around with my first Chart. :)

Thanks..!

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7095/6920488214_9ab0ee5de1_z.jpg

Minderwiz
11-04-2012, 22:06
a Very very nice things being done here...!! I've downloaded Morinus, cast my question: "Will our house sell within the next three months? (Mid June 2012)."

Now, I don't quite understand how to go about this, but here goes:

I did my own chart for it on April 10, 2012 at 10:49pm - in Orleans, Ontario, Canada (45.45N - 75.45W)

Significators:

So here's where I get confused... the main question is about a house, so would I use the 4th house as the first (Aries?); and the selling part as the 7th house (Taurus, but read is Gemini given it's getting close to Gemini)? Correct?

Fumbling around with my first Chart. :)

Thanks..!

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7095/6920488214_9ab0ee5de1_z.jpg

Thanks for posting your chart, as well as the details. Normally the details themselves would be quite sufficient for me but at the moment I'm trying out a new Android Tablet and one of it's failings is that it can't run Morinus but if necessary I'll shift to my netbook (which is not so well these days).

Looking at your chart, I can see that there's a late degree of Scorpio rising (looks like 27 degrees) so there's an intial doubt over the radicality of your chart. Some Astrologers take this as an indication that the question was asked too late for the querent to affect the outcome, others simply accept it and for the moment that is what I will do - Morinus is accurate enough to get the Ascendant right, and your watch or clock is accurate enough to give a time for Morinus to work on.

So significators:

A house sale is quite a complex transaction (both in reality and in the Astrology). We have:

The vendor - you and as the querent you take the Ascendant and it's ruler - Mars

A potential buyer - in this case the buyer takes the seventh House and its ruler - Venus (Taurus on Descendant)

The House - this is your real estate and as such it takes the fourth House and its ruler - Jupiter (Pisces on the cusp)

The Estate Agent (if any) - who acts for you and is thus your servant - they take the sixth House and it's ruler - in this case Taurus is also on the sixth house cusp (which suggests they might be more inclined to the buyer rather than you) however as there is no planet except Jupiter (the House) in the sixth, I would give them the Moon (exalted in Taurus)

This list of significators of itself might confirm the radicality of the chart. If you are using an Agent, then Jupiter in the sixth probably indicates that the House is now under the immediate control of the Agent - a reflection of reality and hence would lead me to look at the chart as radical.

The next thing to look at is the essential and accidental dignities of the significators - of prime concern are those of the buyer (Venus) and seller (Mars) as your question is 'Will it sell'. Jupiter will tell us something of the desirability of the house to the seller (something about its physical condition as well) and the Moon will tell us something about the competence and motives of the Agent.

Taking Mars (you) first Mars is placed in the ninth House, not a bad placement but it could be considerably better. Mars is also retrograde a debility that might indicate looking the wrong way - that is missing the potential buyer, or it might mean simply difficulty in getting your act together. Mars is not in any major dignity in Virgo and its in the Terms of Mercury and the Face of the Sun. Mars is therefore Peregrine, having no essential dignity of it's own. This can put you at a significant disadvantage in the housing market - you may well need help to get the house sold (clearly an agent is the obvious possibility)

Venus is in the Seventh House (angular houses are much better than cadent ones such as the ninth) but despite being the Seventh ruler, Venus has moved from Taurus into early Gemini. This might indicate a seller who is no longer at ease in their home and therefore might be on the look out for another dwelling - moves are something on their mind - as the move from Taurus to Gemini has already happened that perhaps echoes the 'too late' degree issue mentioned at the outset. Essentially Venus has not major dignity (Rulership, Exaltation, Triplicity) in Gemini - indeed as she is in the Terms of Mercury and the Face of Jupiter she too is Peregrine - if the buyer is looking, they too will need help and again an agent is an obvious helper. One good sign here is that being in the Face of Jupiter means that you house will have some appeal to them. Being the lowest positive dignity, that doesn't say an awful lot - it might just be a willingness to read the details or even take a drive by.

So we have a buyer who's in a better situation than the seller but both really need a good agent to bring them together. This conclusion is strengthened by the fact that Venus is actually separating from a square to Mars(itself an indicator of things past and it's an aspect that is unlikely to effect the sale that you are looking for - if it had effected a sale it would not have been on terms desirable to you.

The house is signified by Jupiter in the sixth house of the chart. This is not a good position to be in as the sixth is usually seen as unfortunate and might indicate a property that is not easily discoverable to buyers. However, with an agent that might simply mean it's on their books.

Jupiter too is not in a good condition essentially. It has no major dignity in Taurus and is also peregrine being in the Terms of Mercury and the Face of the Moon. The only good indicator there is that the Moon is being used as a significator for the Estate Agent - but being in the Face of the Moon does not suggest that it is in any way a important priority in respect to a sale.

That leaves us with the Agent! It would have been nice if Mercury was the significator for the Agent, because Mars, Venus and Jupiter are all in its Terms but Mercury is neither the ruler of the cusp of the sixth nor in the sixth. So we have to examine the Moon.

The Moon is in Sagittrius and on the cusp of the second House (your money) This at least suggests some interest in the House (Sagittarius is ruled by Jupiter) and also real interest in your money. However again, the Moon has no major essential dignity in Sagittarius and is in the Terms and Face of Saturn. The Moon too is Peregrine, suggesting that the agent doesn't really have a high level of competence.

Nor is the Moon going to aspect Mars and Venus before leaving Sagittarius so there is little hope of the Agent bringing buyer and seller together.

I've not checked for antiscia (I'll do that when I get back to my netbook) but at the moment the situation is not at all promising for a June sale. One thing that you might consider is possibly using a different agent, especially if the sale fails to materialise.

lord_ewin
12-04-2012, 08:23
Oh my! Look at all the details, I never expected that much so quickly. I'm rather embarassed because I was just trying to see how it all fit.

Interesting about the ascendant, and you did answer my question about Taurus. Thank you.

I'm also starting to understand the necessity of asking the correct question now though. The house isn't for sale, yet, so I guess I've been jumping the gun without realizing it. I know I have to move, I know we must eventually sell... The quicker then better, but we can hold out if we have to. So I have no agent, I had been thinking of selling it myself, which I think you did touch on... Making the house visible and the inexperienced selling agent describes me rather well at this point in time.

A better question would have been, when is a good time to put the house on the market? But then, that isn't quite precise enough either.

Hope you enjoy the tablet, I love my iPad...! :)

214red
12-04-2012, 23:02
yay more ipad friends!

i will be moving on to work on horary after the new moon, this thread is very interesting and cant wait to try it out myself!

Cosmos
15-04-2012, 05:09
Hey Minderwiz!

I finally asked the question. Two actually..
Am I going to NY for my next vacation (I'm thinking it should be around October, I'm not sure yet) and if yes will anything develop btw us (me and him) while I'm there?

Thank you! I hope you can help me out on this one, I really do appreciate it!

April 14th, 2012.
3:13 PM
Brazil
Rio de Janeiro

http://www.astro.com/cgi/showgif.cgi?lang=e&gif=astro_2gw_61_vacation_chart_hr.68830.22927.gif&res=100&va=&cid=p12filemZjqVw-u1176326269

Cosmos
15-04-2012, 05:20
I'm having a hard time trying to read the chart. Since the main question is about wether or not am I going to NY so I should look at 9H right? Taurus. Venus is in 9th and trines Moon in Aquarius.

I'm Virgo rising at 8 degrees.. (too soon to tell?)
He is Jupiter (falling in my 8th) <-- is that too bad?

Mercury is in Pisces and doesn't make any contact to him (Jupiter)
Moon is actually going to square Jupiter in a while.. which can't be good, I think?

I'm trying to be positive here, what do you think sweets? I'm rather confused, as you can tell lol.

Minderwiz
15-04-2012, 06:55
You have two questions and these need to be answered in order.

The first question is will you go to New York for your vacation, if the answer to that is no, then the secong question is moot.

You are right, Virgo is your significator (in both questions). For the first question, you are looking at an international trip, so that's a ninth house issue.. Your ninth is ruled by Venue, conjuct your MC and the South Node. Venus and Mercury make no aspect. With Venus on the MC but afflicted by the South Node, it's possible that Work will in some way disrupt your plans.

Although that looks bad, it might be of some consolation that Jupiter is close enough to the 9th cusp to be treated as in the house - and Mercury in Pisces shows he is your main concern. The square from the Moon definitely hinders, though Jupiter is in the exaltation of the Moon, so there is some reception.

Conclusion: The trip may well not come off, possibly for work reasons. That suggests the meeting probably won't come off, though there is an outside chance, because of the Moon/Jupiter square but that suggests significant difficulties at best, frustration at worst

Cosmos
15-04-2012, 07:14
You have two questions and these need to be answered in order.

The first question is will you go to New York for your vacation, if the answer to that is no, then the secong question is moot.

You are right, Virgo is your significator (in both questions). For the first question, you are looking at an international trip, so that's a ninth house issue.. Your ninth is ruled by Venue, conjuct your MC and the South Node. Venus and Mercury make no aspect. With Venus on the MC but afflicted by the South Node, it's possible that Work will in some way disrupt your plans.

Although that looks bad, it might be of some consolation that Jupiter is close enough to the 9th cusp to be treated as in the house - and Mercury in Pisces shows he is your main concern. The square from the Moon definitely hinders, though Jupiter is in the exaltation of the Moon, so there is some reception.

Conclusion: The trip may well not come off, possibly for work reasons. That suggests the meeting probably won't come off, though there is an outside chance, because of the Moon/Jupiter square but that suggests significant difficulties at best, frustration at worst

Hey!

You might be right, there's no confirmation at all about when my vacation is coming. I requested October, November or December.

So it looks like I'm not getting off of work around Oct, is that it?
And also.. when would be appropriate to ask again? Can I find out through Horary when my vacation is coming?

I'm sorry for all the questions.. I'm just trying to figure this out.

Thank you!

Cosmos
15-04-2012, 07:17
I asked the question to know if I'll be able to go in Oct. So it's a no, not gonna happen around oct. or does the chart says I'm not going on my next vacation, period.

Does that make any sense?

Thanks!

Minderwiz
18-04-2012, 01:20
I asked the question to know if I'll be able to go in Oct. So it's a no, not gonna happen around oct. or does the chart says I'm not going on my next vacation, period.

Does that make any sense?

Thanks!

Sorry for the delay in rep ones - if your question specified October, then the answer relates to October, so it does not rule out delayed vacations or even premature vacations :)

Minderwiz
18-04-2012, 01:31
I asked the question to know if I'll be able to go in Oct. So it's a no, not gonna happen around oct. or does the chart says I'm not going on my next vacation, period.

Does that make any sense?

Thanks!

Sorry for the delay in rep ones - if your question specified October, then the answer relates to October, so it does not rule out delayed vacations or even premature vacations :)

Nalini
27-04-2012, 13:19
Hi!

Ummm...not sure if this is the correct place to put up my Horary question and if I'm doing it the right way. So, read a few previous posts by others and formed an idea plus looking at last activity (post) a week back perhaps I'm not too off the mark.

My question: When will I get married and have children?

Time of question: 08:48 AM

Date of question: Friday, April 27, 2012

Place of question: Kolkata, India

Latitude & Longitude: 22°34′10.92″N / 88°22′10.92″E

Link to chart: http://i45.tinypic.com/6prb54.gif

Chart date & time: Friday, April 27, 2012 at 08:40 AM

Don't know much about astrology (that's a huge understatement) but isn't 7th House the one for marriage in Western astrology?


P.S. I understand that Morinus chart is a better option to post here but also that it runs on Linux (which I don't have). Really hope that it will not be a problem.

Minderwiz
28-04-2012, 00:32
I'll take a look at the chart and get back to you but I have one observation plus a bit of info.

The observation is that Hoary works best with a time limit attached. With the question as it stands a 'Yes' answer is not very helpful as it could be anytime in the next 20 years. If you put in a time frame (say one to two years you at least have some idea.). If you are only interested in the general situation, then that is best done from your natal chart.

The info is that Morinus does run in Windows (and Mac). The file you need to download is morinusWinEng.exe

See Morinus website for details.

Minderwiz
28-04-2012, 05:57
Hi!

Ummm...not sure if this is the correct place to put up my Horary question and if I'm doing it the right way. So, read a few previous posts by others and formed an idea plus looking at last activity (post) a week back perhaps I'm not too off the mark.

My question: When will I get married and have children?

Time of question: 08:48 AM

Date of question: Friday, April 27, 2012

Place of question: Kolkata, India

Latitude & Longitude: 22°34′10.92″N / 88°22′10.92″E

Link to chart: http://i45.tinypic.com/6prb54.gif

Chart date & time: Friday, April 27, 2012 at 08:40 AM

Don't know much about astrology (that's a huge understatement) but isn't 7th House the one for marriage in Western astrology?


P.S. I understand that Morinus chart is a better option to post here but also that it runs on Linux (which I don't have). Really hope that it will not be a problem.

I didn't have my Astrology software with me when I posted earlier but trying this chart I have two issues. The first is that the 08:40 Chart has 1*Ca36' 37" rising and the chart that you have linked to has 23Cp21 rising. Now it looks like this is linked to your birth chart in some way. A Horary chart is a stand alone chart for the time that you understood the question you were asking.

If I read your post correctly you cast the chart of 08:40 and asked the question at 08:48, which is the wrong way round - question first (in it's final version) and then cast the chart.

Now it could well be that the 08:40 isa mistype and you meant to type 08:48. However before I can go any further I need you to confirm that you did indeed ask the question at 08:48 AM and if that's the case I'll do a reading based on it. Can I suggest yo add a time limit to the question, as mentioned above.

I don't normally ask for a natal chart as the two are not connected but in this case it might help, as I can also make an assessment based on the natal chart as well. Is the birth date given in the linked chart correct?

PS yes the seventh House is the house used for marriage (as well as all forms of partnership)

Nalini
28-04-2012, 11:13
Hi!

Thanks so much for taking a look at my question and chart.

To get to the points you mentioned:

• In astro.com there were quite a few options of getting a chart done and I was very confused about which one to opt for because of my inexperience.

• Indeed I did the chart first and then posted the question, sorry didn't know that it should be other way around. So, it is 08:48 AM

• As for the time limit can we take November 2012 - December 2013 or is it too long a time frame?

• Yes it is, date: 27.09.1972, time: 13:30 hrs, place: lat/long: 22°34′10.92″N / 88°22′10.92″E

I'm glad that you will be checking out my natal chart, because there are a few things that I intend to request for you to look at if it's not a problem (in a different thread). Sorry that the chart which I provided is perhaps not of much use (really wanted to cause you less trouble). Will try to download Morinus as soon as possible, but probably as don't have any understanding of astrology except for what is told to me don't think would be able to figure out anything from one generated. :-/

P.S. Thanks, in vedic astrology if I'm not wrong marriage, children etc., is related to Jupiter, which seems to be a problem for me but that's for later.

Minderwiz
29-04-2012, 07:36
There's two parts to the question, firstly the marriage and seondly any consequent children. I'm going to take the time frame as relating to the marriage part of the question, so I'll take part 1 as:

Will I get married before the end of December 1913?'

and part 2 as 'Will the marriage result in children?'

For this post I'll largely ignore your natal chart if you intend to post one or more questions on it as a separate thread.

I've attached the chart, which was cast for 08:48 local time, Kolkota, India. The chart has 3 degrees 26 minutes Cancer rising. This makes the Moon your significator, and it is close to the Ascendant at 11 degrees Cancer. Both by house position and by essential dignity the Moon is very strong. You have the ability to influence the outcome to a considerable degree (assuming you want to). The Moon is also waxing, a good symbol of the time to start a new project or activity.

The prospective partner is signified by Saturn, ruler of the Seventh House. Saturn is on the cusp of the fifth House, which deals with romance and children, This might simply reflect your strong interest in these areas, especially if there is no further supporting evidence for the question.

Saturn is in Libra, where it is exalted and also is the triplicity ruler for the air signs, so Saturn has plemtu essential dignity and is placed in a succeedent house. However, Saturn is in no dignity of the Moon, Nor for that matter is the Moon in any dignity of Saturn, but it is in Saturn's detriment, so there's no indication here of an attraction. The Moon will aspect Saturn by Square but before that square can be completed Saturn will first square Mercury in Aries, and then sextile Jupiter in Taurus. Again this is not a favourable indicator for the desired outcome. I've also checked to see if there's contact by antiscia but there is not.

William Lilly allows the use of two additional significators in marriage questions. The Sun for the male and Venus for the female. These can be used when the two main significators do not suggest a positive outcome. Howeve I would really expect that the main two pointed in the direction of marriage even if they did not promise it. However I will consider them.

The Sun is in Taurus, the exaltation of the Moon, and the sign, triplicity and Terms of Venus - so that's a very positive position. The Sun (him) likes both your significators. The Moon is separating from a sextile to the Sun, so this might be someone that you have already met, possibly a friend (Sun is in the eleventh house of friends).

Venus (your other significator) is in Gemini, in the twelfth house (not a good placement) but it is in the triplicity of Saturn, so again this is a positive indication. Venus will soon apply to a trine with Saturn (indeed as Saturn is retrograde, the two planets will be mutually applying) As Saturn is in the sign of Venus, we have a mutual reception by rulership and triplicity.

The key thing is whether the two planets will perfect that trine before Saturn changes sign. Unfortunately Venus stations retrograde on 16 May, at 23 degrees 59 Gemini, On that day Saturn is at 24 degrees 02 Libra, The aspect is not perfected.

This suggests that you may meet someone and indeed everything is promised but their is something which delays or postpones the marriage, possibly indefinitely If the mutual reception was stronger - that is Venus was in Saturn's sign of Aquarius, I'd say that things may perfect anyway but with a weaker dignity I would not like to do that.

This is literally a frustrating reading, as the aspect is frustrated by Venus turning retrograde. Saturn and Venus offer great promise but the aspect is snatched away at the last minute. As this pair make a very significant difference all I can do is hope that things might still work out, though with some difficulties but please realise that things might well fall through.

If you are already in a promising relationship I would be more happy to be positive, if you are simply looking and hoping then things are more likely not to work out.

Sorry not to be more positive but to end on something of an optimistic note, the Sun (one of his significators) rules the two Lots of Marriage mentioned by Vettius Valens - so we do have further evidence of the possibility of marriage in this chart.

Minderwiz
29-04-2012, 20:09
The above horary does not perfect the matter because Venus turns retrograde and moves away. As Venus is your significator it looks like it's you who has second thoughts not him.

So if it's any consolation the matter is decided by your own actions.

Nalini
30-04-2012, 21:00
Thanks so much for your time, wisdom, creating the chart and making such effort to explain things.

Don't know if the information helps but was in a relationship until end of February this year but it ended due to outside influences (and not through my choice). He is a Tauran. There is a faint possibility of contact. However, outcome is very unclear to me as of now if that possibility (of contact) materializes.

P.S. Posted some questions related to my natal chart, here is the link fi you wouldn't mind taking a look: http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?p=3136347#post3136347

Nalini
10-05-2012, 14:49
Hi!

Dunno if any more questions are being taken, in case if it is yes, then do have a question.


Question: Will 'AC' get arrested this month?

Date: Time of question: 08:33 AM

Date of question: Thursday, May 10, 2012

Place of question: Kolkata, India

Latitude & Longitude: 22°34′10.92″N / 88°22′10.92″E

Link to chart: http://i50.tinypic.com/e9udl0.jpg


Many thanks in advance.

Minderwiz
10-05-2012, 16:56
Hi!

Dunno if any more questions are being taken, in case if it is yes, then do have a question.


Question: Will 'AC' get arrested this month?

Date: Time of question: 08:33 AM

Date of question: Thursday, May 10, 2012

Place of question: Kolkata, India

Latitude & Longitude: 22°34′10.92″N / 88°22′10.92″E

Link to chart: http://i50.tinypic.com/e9udl0.jpg


Many thanks in advance.

Yes the thread is still open but to answer this question requires a lot more background. What are the circumstances behind the question and how do they relate to you?

This informaction is vital for the determination of the houses used to derive the answer. Who is AC - are they a relative, friend, or colleague for example. What crime(s) are alleged? and is AC in the habit of getting arrestedand indeed do they live a criminal lifestyle

Nalini
11-05-2012, 01:45
Thanks a lot.

I shared a relationship with AC and he is a respectable citizen as per as my knowledge.

The charges that have been pressed against him (by me) is that of cheating (which he has actually committed, documents and evidences have been furnished to court and cops). The matter is interstate (that is cops from one state will go to the other where he is currently located to arrest him).

However, what is unknown at this point is if he is still there or not and whether cops will take a bribe and come back to report to the magistrate that they were unable to find him (but that's only my fear, no indication or facts of it happenening so far).

Hope that helps.

Minderwiz
11-05-2012, 04:34
Yes, that helps a lot. You have a clean interest and are clearly the first house. He is effectively a fugitive and the question comes down to Will he be apprehended.

I'm actually away for the next week, but Will cast a chart and get back to you when I return. I walk still have a link to Aeclectic whilst in away but only the most rudimentary Astrological tools.

Nalini
11-05-2012, 11:33
Thanks Minderwiz, I really appreciate it.

Nytebugg
09-07-2012, 05:11
I had a question about horary significators and figured this thread would suffice. Hopefully, Minderwiz spots it.

How do you deal with a chart where the querent and the quested are the same significator? Is there any particular meaning to them being same?

Minderwiz
09-07-2012, 07:05
I had a question about horary significators and figured this thread would suffice. Hopefully, Minderwiz spots it.

How do you deal with a chart where the querent and the quested are the same significator? Is there any particular meaning to them being same?

The only time that there's a particular meaning is if it's a question about yourself - for example a question on general health, or where should I live or if it's a question about someone who is absent, and is unrelated to the querent. In all such cases the first House is used and the condition of the Ascendant ruler is judged together with any planets in the first or in aspect to the Ascendant.

The most usual cases that I come across are where, for example, Gemini is rising but the quesited's house cusp is in Virgo. That is we are dealing with two separate signs (and houses) but both are ruled by the same planet. or it's a second House question and the same sign is on the cusp of both the Ascendant and the second (the same will apply to twelfth House questions but I can't remember having one LOL).

There are several strategies that you can use:

I almost always give the planet that rules both Ascendant and the questited's house to the querent. There are some circumstances where I might not do that and I'll mention those at the end.

For the quesited I will use:

A planet in the house, providing it's in the same sign as the cusp and it's of an appropriate nature (In these circumstances I wouldn't use Saturn to signifiy a young girl, for example)

No or inappropriate planets, then I would use the exaltation ruler.

No exaltation ruler (Gemini, Scorpio, Sagittarius, Aquarius) I would use the Triplicity ruler.

This will always produce a significator for the questited and I've rarely had to use the triplicity ruler in these circumstances.

Some readers will take a natural significator for the quesited, for example Venus for jewellery or fashionable clothing, Mercury for a book or pen or computer, rather than falling back on the triplicity ruler or even the exaltation ruler. I rarelly do that, but it's always amn option.

The circumstances in which I won't use the Ascendant ruler for the querent is usually where Capricorn, Pisces or Aries is rising. Then I'll use either the exaltation ruler, (Mars, Venus and the Sun respectively) for the querent and use Saturn, Jupiter and Mars for the quesited.

The only troublesome situation that arises is when Mercury is involved. In this case Mercury is both ruler and exaltation ruler for Virgo, so there's no second choice easiily available. I will usually assign Virgo to the querant if there's a planet in the Gemini house (same sign) or use a natural significator.

If neither are available for some reason (usually multiple houses involved) I'll look if there's a planet in the first (in Virgo) or a natural significator for the querent (for example Venus if it's a young woman) and give Mercury to the quesited.

If this were to fail (and it hasn't up to now) I'd use the Earth Triplicity ruler for the querent (Venus by Day, Moon by Night).

This actually only takes a moment or two to do. It's a matter of ensuring that there's a logical choice available. The main times I run into this problem is if there's multiple houses involved, foir example a house purchase, where the first (querent) fourth (property), Seventh (other party to the transaction), second (querent's money), eighth (other party's money) and even the sixth (estate agent) may be involved. In those questions it's almost certain that I will go to exaltation rulers, planets in houses, etc.

Nytebugg
09-07-2012, 14:42
Thank you for the thorough reply. Like everything about horary I have to let it all sink in and filter through.
It was one where it had been Gemini rising and the quested house cusp was in Virgo.