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214red
31-01-2012, 20:03
has anyone linked Chiron to physical wounds not just emotional ones? or would it perhaps be in an aspect that creates the physical wound? I have a chart that has chiron in 12th house, opposite uranus in 6th house scorpio? I am wondering if i could link this to a surgery i had a few years ago?

Saturness
31-01-2012, 20:50
I don't know anything about Chiron, but I remember reading somewhere it relates to your ability to heal yourself. I suppose it can be both emotionally and physically. So perhaps Chiron is not just ruling the surgery, but how you actually recovered from it...

In the 12th House perhaps your recovery power comes from deep resources, and also you need to rest a lot in order to get better when healing from wounds and illness.

Chrion opposes most of my planets (because almost all of them are concentrated in one portion of the chart), so I suppose that it could make Chiron relevant to me. My chart does not have any oppositions aside from the ones made by Chiron, so if anyone can give an extra insight about it (and also answer 214red's question), that would be great! :)

Edited to add: There's a book by Melanie Reinhart called Chiron and the Healing Journey. I saw it for sale during our local yearly book fair and almost brought it home out of curiosity. It seemed to be rather complete, but I didn't read all of it so I can't tell for sure. Maybe it could be helpful to you, 214red?

214red
31-01-2012, 21:41
yes i have read lots about healing yourself with chiron, i also read that 6th links to intestines and and uranus to breaks and sharp implements.The physical wound was caused by family members because of suppressed emotions (pisces rules my 12th)

I have decided not to buy anymore books as i have tons, but the book sounds interesting, but am sticking with aspects at the moment.

Barleywine
09-02-2012, 08:27
has anyone linked Chiron to physical wounds not just emotional ones? or would it perhaps be in an aspect that creates the physical wound? I have a chart that has chiron in 12th house, opposite uranus in 6th house scorpio? I am wondering if i could link this to a surgery i had a few years ago?

I didn't have much interest in Chiron until I recently read Kevin Burk's excellent "Astrology: Understanding the Birth Chart." I've had Barbara Hand Clow's 1987 book "Chiron: Rainbow Bridge Between the Inner and Outer Planets" (unread) for a long time, so I browsed through it and Burk to see if anything on physical wounding jumped out at me.

Most of it has a highly spiritual slant. All I could find on physical wounding in this cursory way was that Chiron dropped a poisoned arrow on his own foot, poisoning himself. To explore the physical-injury angle, I would probably look for stressful contacts between Chiron and Mars/Uranus for unexpected physical wounding (especially by way of being cut), or between Chiron and Mars/Mercury/Saturn for pre-planned "wounding" like surgery. If any infection resulted or is likely to result, I would look to the condition of Moon/Venus/Neptune in relation to Chiron, and if any mortification of flesh or organ damage/removal is an issue, I might similarly look to difficult Chiron/Mars/Pluto contacts. And Jupiter would most likely be involved if there were any excessive bleeding.

Since Chiron apparently has a 6th House/12 House connotation, it would probably be useful to look at any planets in those houses and their interaction with Chiron. The condition of the rulers of those houses in connection with Chiron and the various Mars complexes I mentioned might also be examined, assuming you don't buy Clow's attribution of Chiron as 6th House ruler. As a precaution, I might avoid handling cutting tools or scheduling surgery if I thought a stressful transit by or to Chiron might create risk of injury. In the case of your Chiron-Uranus 6th/12th opposition, that might have predisposed you to surgery, but I would look to see if Mars did anything to trigger it, especially if it was emergency surgery.

However, since all I can find preliminarily on the effects of Chiron in a chart has a decidedly "New Age-y" spiritual/psychological, inner-healing vibration to it, all of this is purely conjecture (translation: don't quote me! :)) You need a Chiron specialist here, not a GP!!!

ETA: Wow, talk about coincidence! We're discussing Chiron, and I just went to look at Dave Roell's latest Astrology Weekly newsletter. Right at the top was an article about Zane Stein's book "A View from Chiron" being republished by Astrology Classics (Dave's publishing house). It will be on Amazon soon and I will probably look it up. Maybe he covers physical wounding, but I'm not holding my breath. BTW, I recommend Dave's website, www.astroamerica.com, for his thoughtful and useful reviews about a wide range of astrology books sold through his business, Astrology Center of America. You can buy the books cheaper through Amazon and other discounters, but it's nice to read reviews by a practicing astrologer first.

214red
09-02-2012, 19:32
i do think its a manifestation of a spiritual/emotional issue in my family lineage, and it links to uranus and my north node as an opposition.

i am very must into the spiritual side of astrology, less so much the psychology side of astrology, my life is that way so my view of most things is lead that way. thats why i am loving Arroyo and such like. pluto is also in my 6th house

Barleywine
09-02-2012, 23:29
i do think its a manifestation of a spiritual/emotional issue in my family lineage, and it links to uranus and my north node as an opposition.

i am very must into the spiritual side of astrology, less so much the psychology side of astrology, my life is that way so my view of most things is lead that way. thats why i am loving Arroyo and such like. pluto is also in my 6th house

The key, then, would be to try to locate what astrological factors gave it the impetus to cross over from spiritual/emotional distress into physical manifestation resulting in "wounding," and the timing of their emergence. Emotional stress can cause a lot of medical conditions like stomach ulcers, and they all have their astrological "signatures." I use Cornell's "Encyclopaedia of Medical Astrology" quite extensively for physical health questions. No Chiron in it, though.

dadsnook2000
09-02-2012, 23:42
Someone should research charts to determine who had Chiron conjoining their Sun or the chart's Ascendant. In this way, the effects of Chiron take on a sort of magnification which can then be studied. Dave

Barleywine
10-02-2012, 00:36
Someone should research charts to determine who had Chiron conjoining their Sun or the chart's Ascendant. In this way, the effects of Chiron take on a sort of magnification which can then be studied. Dave

That's sound, fundamental astrological advice. It seems that most, if not all, of the writers on Chiron were dazzled by the mythological correspondences and their spiritual import. I will be interested in seeing whether Zane Stein's work (which was updated as recently as the 1990's) has anything more practical from an "outward manifestation" perspective in it. And where is Michel Gauquelin when we need him? :)

214red
10-02-2012, 02:04
Someone should research charts to determine who had Chiron conjoining their Sun or the chart's Ascendant. In this way, the effects of Chiron take on a sort of magnification which can then be studied. Dave

i wonder if i asked the wrong question, perhaps the uranus in 6th which is ruled by virgo (the house) was the operation, so chiron and the moon started it, and it was manifested into physical being by uranus in the 6th. 6th house rules intestines too, and scorpio would be hidden/supressed issues.

am just trying to piece things together and see if i can fit this in, it has to be there as it was major surgery, just where is an issue. i had another shock accident when i was young, but i see that more as the 4th house linking as it was at home, caused by a family member and on the arm (3/4th cancer which rules arms and home, also siblings), is square uranus (something sudden)

Barleywine
10-02-2012, 02:42
i wonder if i asked the wrong question, perhaps the uranus in 6th which is ruled by virgo (the house) was the operation, so chiron and the moon started it, and it was manifested into physical being by uranus in the 6th. 6th house rules intestines too, and scorpio would be hidden/supressed issues.

am just trying to piece things together and see if i can fit this in, it has to be there as it was major surgery, just where is an issue. i had another shock accident when i was young, but i see that more as the 4th house linking as it was at home, caused by a family member and on the arm (3/4th cancer which rules arms and home, also siblings), is square uranus (something sudden)

I think that Dave is just trying to recalibrate us a bit, so we get a feel for what, if any, event-oriented potentials we can expect out of Chiron before we try to get down to the details. What he proposes is a kind of "proof test" using highly visible solar and angular placements to see what sort of fundamental manifestations arise from them. After that we can start blending other planetary contacts into the primary "vibration." Kind of like the Gauquelins did with the angular placement of Mars in the charts of successful athletes. It's also entirely likely that there is enough in your chart to indicate abdominal surgery (as I assume you mean from the "intestine" reference) even without considering Chiron (although it would be interesting to see if it ties in with the other indicators, as I was suggesting earlier).

Come to think of it, I had very invasive abdominal surgery back in 2006, so I should look at my chart in that light as well.

dadsnook2000
10-02-2012, 05:12
Associating the 6th house of a chart with the sign of Virgo is a mental trap that you should avoid making. There are distinct differences between interpretive models of signs and for houses.

ZODIAC SIGNS are metaphors based on the interactions of threeness and fourness as they relate to twelveness in which the twelveness relates to a "whole." Threes relate to the attributes of Cardinal, Fixed, Mutable in how they reflect temperment. Fourness relates to Fire, Earth, Air, Water in how they relate to attitude or expression. Together, they interact to form a basis for overall influence that might be applied to planetary expression. Mars in Taurus (fixed, earth) will act differently than in Gemini (mutable, air). The only issue with these "signs" is how far we can effectively extend those combinational foundations into our astrological interpretations.

HOUSES have a series of meanings which are action oriented, maintenance oriented, and mentally orientated, these three flavors starting at the four chart angles. Planets near the angles tend to be action oriented. Planets midway between the angles tend to not be action-oriented as they have little power to change things. Planets approaching the angles (from the 3rd, 6th, 9th, 12th house areas) tend to be somewhat mental in that planning, preparing, assessing, and rallying consensus seems to be their orientation. These houses have an "area of life expression" for planets that some say is based on the diurnal motion of the Earth relative to the Sun. As an example, the First House is the first to rise and represents the initial awakening and actions of our early morning life as we greet the day. The Second House is said to represent the typical work and duties that we take up as part of our effort to make a living and maintain our place in the world. So it goes. The twelve houses, taken as a whole, represents a guide to living one's life so as to recognize a balanced approach to personal concerns, personal activity, interpersonal support for others, and public efforts to support the larger community --- these four groupings representing the four quadrants of the chart.

As you can see, there is no real association between signs and houses. Saying so distorts your understanding and application of astrology and confuses others who are learning astrology. My view. Dave

214red
10-02-2012, 23:58
i think what i meant to say was i have virgo ruling my 6th house, so if i didnt put that down clearly thats my fault, i was trying to show the link to house of health, and the virgo link to.

thansk for making the points, its a good thing to keep reminding myself when doing this. at the moment i seem to be having soo much information trying to get out of my head its getting a bit confused, i dont know what transit kicked that off, but i might have to lay low for a few days until my thoughts go back to being clear!

Barleywine
11-02-2012, 02:49
i think what i meant to say was i have virgo ruling my 6th house, so if i didnt put that down clearly thats my fault, i was trying to show the link to house of health, and the virgo link to.

thansk for making the points, its a good thing to keep reminding myself when doing this. at the moment i seem to be having soo much information trying to get out of my head its getting a bit confused, i dont know what transit kicked that off, but i might have to lay low for a few days until my thoughts go back to being clear!

Back when I started learning - and probably way before and after that point - there was a growing tendency to commingle the sign/house and even planet meanings into a kind of "interchangeable-parts" monolithic interpretive tool. I've always adhered to my original perception that the houses represent WHERE an astrological principle manifests in one's existence ("department of life") and one or more of several HOW determinants, the planets involved express WHAT is going on there (activity, expression of energy or character emphasis), and the signs denote WHY the manifestation will unfold as it does (predisposition or "coloration" for the planetary energies). Put it all in motion via directions, progressions and transits, and you come up with the WHEN. There are any number of good analogies that can be used to distinguish the three natal factors, but this is the one that stuck with me. As Dave says, it's a mental trap that is perpetuated by writers right up to this day; I was on Amazon, browsing through James Lewis' mammoth "The Astrology Book," and there it was!

Minderwiz
11-02-2012, 06:16
Associating the 6th house of a chart with the sign of Virgo is a mental trap that you should avoid making. There are distinct differences between interpretive models of signs and for houses.

Whilst Dave and I are usually in full agreement on this Sign/Houses 'link', oddly medical Astrology is the one area where signs and houses do have the same/similar meanings. In Richard Sauders 1677 'The Astrological Judgement and Practice of Physick', he says;

Virgo and the sixth house : The midriff, Bowels. Belly, Guts, Gall, Mesenterion and bottom of the stomach'.

Now one should be careful here the application is specific to finding the area of disease and has no other purpose, nor does it indicate a much more general connection between Virgo and the sixth, other than the extreely general ordinal point, they both have '6'[ in common.


Someone should research charts to determine who had Chiron conjoining their Sun or the chart's Ascendant. In this way, the effects of Chiron take on a sort of magnification which can then be studied. Dave

I'd love someone to try this but I see one horrendous problem with the research design. If we are to isolate a 'Chiron' influence or factor, then the charts of those that have it need to be the same in all the other respects but Chiron on the Ascendant or conjunct the Sun, i.e. they have exactly the same houses and the same planetary positions except for Chiron. If this is not so, then it's possible to argue that it's not a Chiron effect but a Pluto effect, or a Charon effect or any other body you care to champion. Who knows it might be down to a sixth House Moon in opposition to Jupiter conjunct Saturn. If the effect is there for the Chiron person with the Moon,/Jupiter/Satuirn combination but not for others with the same combination, then we/ve identified something.

Of course this is a rather 'scientific' or 'empirical' approach but if it's not done the argument about whether Chiron has any value at all comes down solely to unsupported opinion either way.

Astraea
11-02-2012, 06:30
We're discussing Chiron, and I just went to look at Dave Roell's latest Astrology Weekly newsletter. Right at the top was an article about Zane Stein's book "A View from Chiron" being republished by Astrology Classics (Dave's publishing house). It will be on Amazon soon and I will probably look it up. Maybe he covers physical wounding, but I'm not holding my breath. BTW, I recommend Dave's website, www.astroamerica.com, for his thoughtful and useful reviews about a wide range of astrology books sold through his business, Astrology Center of America. You can buy the books cheaper through Amazon and other discounters, but it's nice to read reviews by a practicing astrologer first.
I have the 3rd edition of Stein's book (c. 1988), and it does not mention physical wounding. Stein describes Chiron in terms of heredity, the immune system, psychospiritual issues and relationship dynamics.

Dave is indeed a knowledgeable fellow and a nice guy, and the publication arm of his business has been enormously helpful to astrologers of both modern and traditional schools. I second your recommendation of his site, even though Amazon features discounts which Dave (as an independent seller) cannot. His reviews are usually quite helpful.