been robbed?

I am missing a large bit of cash, that I know I didnt put anywhere but where it belongs...despite this I have torn up every part of my house, searching for two days...I have become suspicious of a "friend" temporarily living nearby, doing some work on my house...for various reasons...his dire need for money is a constant issue, and his behavior has been strange. I did a chart specifically asking if he had taken the money...Im not sure how to post the chart here...since I am new and this is my first time posting! I have been reading everything I can about horary and been practicing on important issues, but this one is so BIG! I need help!
I am not one to ever loose money and after two days of searching I am really loosing hope that I misplaced it!

I cast the chart at 11:17 am (EST) Feb 17, 2012

The ascendant, My significator, is 25 degree taurus...ruled venus in the 11th in aries...being squared by pluto
The 7th house ruler, His significator, is scorpio...ruled by mars (unaspected) in the 5th retrograde in virgo and pluto in capricorn in the 8th, with an applying conjunction from the moon within two degrees
Pluto squares venus by 3 degrees
The second house cusp is gemini, ruling the money, ruled by mercury in the 10th in pisces, with a exact sextile to the moon and 2 degrees pluto in the 8th...

I am confused if pluto(the guy i am suspecting) sextiling mercury(the money) means he did or didnt take it...I can see the square to pluto might point to that...

thoughts?

Hi,

I'll take a look at your chart and get back to you

chan said:

I am missing a large bit of cash, that I know I didnt put anywhere but where it belongs...despite this I have torn up every part of my house, searching for two days...I have become suspicious of a "friend" temporarily living nearby, doing some work on my house...for various reasons...his dire need for money is a constant issue, and his behavior has been strange. I did a chart specifically asking if he had taken the money...Im not sure how to post the chart here...since I am new and this is my first time posting! I have been reading everything I can about horary and been practicing on important issues, but this one is so BIG! I need help!
I am not one to ever loose money and after two days of searching I am really loosing hope that I misplaced it!

I cast the chart at 11:17 am (EST) Feb 17, 2012

The ascendant, My significator, is 25 degree taurus...ruled venus in the 11th in aries...being squared by pluto
The 7th house ruler, His significator, is scorpio...ruled by mars (unaspected) in the 5th retrograde in virgo and pluto in capricorn in the 8th, with an applying conjunction from the moon within two degrees
Pluto squares venus by 3 degrees
The second house cusp is gemini, ruling the money, ruled by mercury in the 10th in pisces, with a exact sextile to the moon and 2 degrees pluto in the 8th...

I am confused if pluto(the guy i am suspecting) sextiling mercury(the money) means he did or didnt take it...I can see the square to pluto might point to that...

thoughts?

Click to expand...

It was late last night when I quickly skimmed your post and put in the above reply. On checking today I see that you haven't either put in a link to your chart or given the location, so I can't reproduce it..

Some general points:

Ignore Pluto, it doesn't have a role in horary because it has no essential dignities or debilities - it's difficult to make any assessment of what it might signifiy. Use Mars as the sole ruler of Scorpio.

Possible theft questions become rather complex, as there are several houses involved. The first for you, the second for the money and if it is stolen the seventh for the thief.

However the first thing is to decide whether you lost the money or whether it was stolen. There are a number of tests for this but essentially what you are looking for is whether the Lord of the Seventh is in an angle and is Peregrine. Without a chart it's difficult to go through all the rules, so if you care to post the place of the chart (you have already posted the time and date) we can check through and see how clearly a theft is indicated

There is another way to tackle this when either the timing or the locality of the question is vague. To quote one of my sources: "use the date, time and coordinates for the time and place that the question is received and understood." An acquaintance of mine with 40 years of horary experience sometimes does it this way with good results. When I read this post, I gave it a try.

Since the question wasn't "Where is my money?" but rather "Did my friend steal my money?" I focused on the 11th house of friends and its derivative houses, as well as the 1st and 2nd houses. Interestingly, this provided solid connections to the circumstances surrounding the question (notably, access to the querent's resources through working for the querent in the home, and probable inattentive supervision) and also tied directly back into the querent's 1st and 2nd houses through rulerships and - to a small but telling extent - aspects. There wasn't enough to be definitive regarding theft, but enough to show opportunity and incentive. The ruler of the 7th house was in fact peregrine but was cadent rather than angular. There was also an indication that the friend may have had some hard-nosed creditors or legal types who were leaning on him, thus his financial desperation, and that he was in a mental state of high anxiety, thus the "strange behavior."

I sent Chan a PM since I didn't want to post all the details.

Barleywine said:

There is another way to tackle this when either the timing or the locality of the question is vague. To quote one of my sources: "use the date, time and coordinates for the time and place that the question is received and understood." An acquaintance of mine with 40 years of horary experience sometimes does it this way with good results. When I read this post, I gave it a try.

Click to expand...

Strictly speaking a horary chart should always be cast for the time and place at which the Astrologer understands the question. However in this case Chan was asking for help in interpreting a chart that had already been cast for the question. The lack of the coordinates for their chart sadly makes giving that help extremely difficult.

barleywine said:

Since the question wasn't "Where is my money?" but rather "Did my friend steal my money?" I focused on the 11th house of friends and its derivative houses, as well as the 1st and 2nd houses. Interestingly, this provided solid connections to the circumstances surrounding the question (notably, access to the querent's resources through working for the querent in the home, and probable inattentive supervision) and also tied directly back into the querent's 1st and 2nd houses through rulerships and - to a small but telling extent - aspects. There wasn't enough to be definitive regarding theft, but enough to show opportunity and incentive. The ruler of the 7th house was in fact peregrine but was cadent rather than angular. There was also an indication that the friend may have had some hard-nosed creditors or legal types who were leaning on him, thus his financial desperation, and that he was in a mental state of high anxiety, thus the "strange behavior."

I sent Chan a PM since I didn't want to post all the details.

Click to expand...

When you say you gave it a 'try' did you mean that you actually tried to reproduce Chan's chart using the data provided but using a location that has EST as its time zone and is somewhere in North Carolina (Chan's location as given in their profile) or you cast a fresh chartf or the time and place that you understood Chan's question - my first reading of your post suggests it was the latter but I think I better ask just to ensure I'm not misunderstanding anything - which knowing me is perfectly possible

The problem of what the question should be, is actually central to any outside Astrolgoer's attempt to locate the money. By 'outside Astrologer' I mean anyone other than Chan.

If this question had been asked of me, I would have sought some clarifications to ensure I understood it" There are several possibilities that might have happened'. for example the money had been simply misplaced, the money had been lost, or it had been stolen by someone other than the friend, or it had been stolen by the friend. I would have wanted to know how sure Chan is that it was stolen and whether anyone else had access - these are things that Chan would have known when casting their chart but not known by anyone else.

There is clear suspicion of the friend in Chan's original post and clear doubt that it could have been misplaced, but suspicion is not proof, so can loss/misplaced/another thief be ruled out entirely. Unless Chan is absolutely sure the money was stolen, I think I would still have checked for loss or misplacement and, if necessary another thief. As a 'consultant' the Astrologer, should be trying to be as objective as possible about the situation. I've had too many horaries go wrong (including ones of my own) because the question wasn't properly set. Here I would have taken Chan's primary concern as finding the money, and leaving no stone unturned. But that's my starting point and discussion with Chan might have shown whether that was inappropriate.l

Assuming there is an element of doubt as to whether it was lost or stolen, the chart should be checked first of all to see if it was in fact stolen - there are tests for that. Thereafter, the identity of the thief should be discovered, using a fairly large battery of tests. Those might show directly that it is a friend or provide a physical description which matches the friend (or alternatively someone else who is known). The problem of starting from the eleventh is that it narrows the question right down to begin with' and excludes theft by a third party. The question 'Who stole my money' is wide enough to encompass the friend and third parties, the question 'Where is my money' is wider still and incorporates loss or misplaced as well as stolen. That's where the discussion with the querent comes in and I was hoping that Chan would get back in order to expore both the original chart and cast further charts if necessary.

Incidentally, if you cast a chart of your own for a different time date and place, did you consider giving Chan the seventh house, as, from your point of view, the question is 'Did Chan's friend steal the money?", rather than 'Did my friend steal the money?", as Chan didn't actually ask the question of anyone else but themselves. That would make Chan's friend, the fifth house of the radical chart. There is a case for still giving Chan the first but it would be worth double checking the chart on the basis of the seventh being Chan's house (as another person than you).

location

sorry, I didnt realize I was receiving feedback until last night...

it was asking if a certain friend took it a man who has been working here...but there are two possible friends who had access to my place...one who works here regularly and lives nearby, and another old "friend" from the past who wanted to visit...we live extremely rurally and have great neighbors close by...no body saw anything weird, nobody has shown up un invited, and I have been here 99 % of the time...

I asked another astrologer, when I wasnt sure if the money was stolen or not, he said 60 % chance, but by this point, I am sure it has been stolen...it was a large amount, and everything else was there and the key to the safe was put back, so I know it was someone I know and not just a robbery...the fact they didnt take everything, the whole safe, and took the time to put it all back seems so strange...

It is driving me crazy not knowing who...and my daughter is scared too, always locking the doors now and paranoid...

the first chart I posted for feb 17, 11:17, black mnt, nc
was if working friend took money...
if I ignore pluto, then mars shows up alone in retrograde virgo in the 5th house...

the second chart I asked if visiting friend took money
feb 20, 8:03 pm, black mnt

this chart the money (libra on 2nd) shows up in the 7th...this makes me question why it would show up in his house...
the friend shows up as pisces, with jupiter in the 8th, with the only applying aspect inconj the par fortune in the first ( I am not even sure inconj is used)...trine pluto in the 4th, and separating sextile from sun in 6th and neptune in 6th....
the 8th would also be his house of finance, with jup in taurus... I happen to know he is broke, frsh in town, and isnt having an easy time of finding a job...

I have been looking at this 100 ways..but is so hard since I feel biased and in shock

Also, to include some more info..
we have called the police, Im not sure if they are confidant they can do anything...i havnt heard back from them yet since they came and took prints...

Both men insist they didnt take it, and I am including the possibility it was someone completely different and just cant think of who, but we have pretty much ran the scene over and over...

at this point I have several questions, including where is the money, if there is a chance of recovery, and who took it...
the original chart I asked another astrologer when I wasnt sure if it was stolen (although I cant see myself misplacing my total savings in cash which I have never done in 17 years)...was cast as where is it, was it stolen...

feb 16, 2012
4:22 pm...hartford, ct...(where the astrologer lives)

this was the day I found it missing...he had me look for it again and again, sw, upstairs, in a desk or brief case, or box, which is where it would normally be...
I looked and looked, which, unfortunately, was not the best thing to do because I might have had a better chance of getting prints before I touched everything...
but the thought of having it stolen was almost unimaginable to me...
He spoke to the possible thief being a mid aged man, a young person, or a crazy old woman (mercury, neptune, and sun in the 7th) and the last conjunction the moon made was to saturn in the 3rd, so he said the man could have worked for me...
he also said the 5th house was lit up like a lightbulb...so look to daughter, her friends, or a boyfriend...
no way on the daughter or her friends, we homeschool, and none of her friends have been over in the time it was stolen, and she doesnt have any tendancies toward that behavior at all ( I searched her room too, just in case)

the person who was visiting for a few was not a boyfriend, but has asked me out in the past, owned an art gallery, is a film maker, and a good times friend, the kind to go dancing with etc...which made me question if he had any alone time in my house while he was visiting...I remembered he had about 30-45 minutes while my daughter and I were outside at one point...

as far as where the money was, it was on the cusp of the 8th, so entering into hiding? Mars retrograde showed up in the 2nd, so I was looking in tool sheds and cars...not finding anything though...

If I had the info of who, and where, I could possibly go to either residence of these "friends" with a friend of mine who is an ex cop, and look around...Im not confident the police are going to be able to do much...or if that will turn up anything...



thanks for you feedback

Some General Rules and an interpretation

Thanks for getting back Chan and I hope the police do their job here.

There are several rules for lost or stolen items of which the first two are

Search your house thoroughly in case it is mislaid

If the search is fruitless then call the police (which you did)

Even if the item is only 'lost' if it was something that you had outside your house then the police need to be involved, if only for insurance purposes, or in case it is found and handed in. If you've a strong suspicion of theft then the police should be involved.

After that it's time to call the Astrologer....they may be of some use and at least you already have the professionals on side.

Thanks for giving the details of the first chart which was cast by the Astrologer in Hartford. I'll use this as an example of how the Astrologer should proceed. safe in the knowledge that the police are already on the case. I've attached the chart to this post. My interpretation is of the situation as pertained on the 16th February.

I'll use Lilly's rules for dealing with these issues. You are signified by the Lord of the Ascendant, which in this chart is the Sun, in Detriment and Peregrine in Aquarius. You are not sure what to do or which way to go and you are clearly in a bad state (as you would be losing the money. You need some help and guidance, if you hope to recover the money.

The money is movable goods and resources, so it is signified by the Lord of the second House, in this case Mercury. Mercury is in even worse condition, being in both Farll and Detriment and Peregrine - that would indicate loss or damage or possible theft. Incidentally, Lilly says if the Lord of the Second is Mercury then the thing lost or stolen is likely to be Money, books, paper, and pictures. So it was paper money he's doubly right.

Lost or Stolen

The procedure is to see if any of the indicators of theft apply. If none of them apply then it is lost. So with an actual chart there's rarely a need to go through every rule where there is a strong probability of theft.

Test One: 'If any planet do seperate from the house of the Moon or from the Lord of the second it is taken away or stolen'

In this chart the ruler of the house of the Moon is Jupiter - the Moon is in the fifth House with Sagittarius on the cusp. Jupiter is on the MC at nearly 5 degrees Taurus. Mercury at 5 degrees 11 minutes Pisces is separating from a sextile to Jupiter - and Mercury is the Lord of the Second.

So we have a clear indication that the money has been stolen.

Test two: Lilly's second rule is where either the Moon is in the seventh and in aspect to the Lord of the Ascendant, or the Lord of the Ascendant is in the seventh and is being aspected by the Moon.

In this chart the Lord of the Ascendant is in the Seventh and is being applied to by sextile by the Moon. So another indicator (not that we need one) that the money is stolen.

The thief

The significator of the thief is a Peregrine planet in an angle, looking first at the Ascendant and then the MC - If there is no such planet then we use the Lord of the seventh as the significator of the thief. There's no planet in the Ascendant but in the tenth there is Jupiter, conjunct the MC and Peregrine - so Jupiter is the significator of the thief.

The Lord of the seventh is actually Saturn, who whilst not Peregrine is retrograde and in the last degree of Libra, so I'd also keep an eye on Saturn as a possibility.

Lilly tests to see if the theif is masculine or feminine by looking at the Ascending sign and the Lord of the hour, if both are masculine it's a man, if both are feminie it's a woman and if they are both mixed then it could be two thieves. In this case the Ascendant is Taurus, which is feminine and the Lord of the hour is Feminine, which suggests a woman.However elsewhere Lilly takes Jupiter to signifiy a male thief.

Where is the thief? - Lilly tests to see if the thief is a member of the household - if both Sun and Moon aspect the Ascendant then it's probably an inside job. In this case neither has an aspect to the Ascendant but are not far off, so I'd say it's not an inside job but the thief knows the house.

Lilly tests to see how far away the thief lives - for the significator of the thief in a fixed sign (Jupiter is in Taurus) we count 3 miles for each house of the chart between the Lord of the Ascendant and the thief. In this case there are three, counting the sevent as the first house, the eighth as the second and the ninth as the third - so the thief lives around 8 or 9 miles away. Now as Lilly was writing before the age of the car, we might stretch that distance to allow for modern conditions. Lilly even has a test for the thief's name - but again this is for seventeenth century popular names, so if the thief is a woman, then he suggests Lucy or Rachel as names signified by Jupiter. for females, John Richard, Thomas or Laurence for males.

Where is the money

The bad news is that if Jupiter signifies the thief it's already on it's way from him - he's given some of it away or spent some of it it, as Mercury is separating from Jupiter.

Lilly takes the Lord of the second together with the Lord of the fourth (Mars) - if both are together then the thief and the stolen goods are together - sadly they are not, as Mars is in the second house. In that case Lilly judges the location by the Lord of the fourth. Mars is in Virgo which is a mutable sign and he says denotes being in a room within a room - such as an en suite bathroom, or a large walk in closet,

The physical description would be stronger upper body than lower body, with a tendency to be fat (if he/she isn't fat they have to work hard to keep the fat off)

Shall the thief be caught? If the Lord of the Ascendant is in the seventh is one of the possible tests for the capture of the thief - so this bodes well for an arrest if the police do their job.

Will you get your money back? 'If the Lord of the first and second are in conjunction with the Lord of the eighth or in any strong reception: Or if the Lord of the second depart from combustion or the Sun or Moon in the ascendant or tenth house it notes recuperation, them most part if they are strong, less if they be weak'. There's hope of retribution when the lights behold themselves with any aspect, chiefly in angles...

Well as the Moon and Sun are in sextile with the Sun in an angle, that suggests there's hope but none of the others apply.

So in summary:

The money is most likely stolen

The thief might be male or female but if they're a male they would have quite strong feminine characteristics. I don't mean by that that they are gay (though that's a possibility) but they may be quite sensitive in the way they relate to others. They are likely to have a strong or larger upper body and perhaps a tendency to be fat. They are between about 30 - 50 years old Jupiter is neither young like Venus or Mercury, nor old like Saturn) and they probably live about 8 or 9 miles away, possibly to the South East (Taurus indicates a south east direction)

It's likely they hid the money initially in an upstairs room with a walk in closet or en suite bathroom but there's now some indication that they are spending it or have just passed it on.

There's a real chance they will eventually be caught but the chances of you getting the money back are only so so - if you're insured for theft and the police treat it as a theft then there's a real chance the insurance company will pay up without quibble (Moon applying to the angular Sun by sextile)

Thankyou for the feedback, and the time, so much to learn...unfortunately...the investigation on all fronts isnt leading anywhere, and it is up to universal energies at this point...my lesson is about letting go and allowing the universe to strip me bare of any external securities perhaps...since loss has been a big theme for the past months....I have been feeling the square from pluto and opposition from uranus on my 7th house libra stellium( mars ,pluto
, sun, mercury) for a few years, but this year has really been the biggest challenge ever. On the bright side, it has plunged me into astrology more than ever, trying to understand the higher vibrations of these planetary energies. I am wondering what exactly the direct hit from both of them is going to bring, and how to smooth out these energies...