View Full Version : what one thoth card would you...
Lokismile
29-02-2012, 08:40
....show to non-tarot readers, those fully unfamiliar? What card best exemplifies
The deck (aside from the effective negative ones) in your opinion.
i want to share a bit of my passion with another forum crowd.
Thanks
Empress ? Star ?? Queen of Cups.. (not that I find any particularly negative.)
closrapexa
29-02-2012, 08:56
I think one of the most beautiful is the two of discs, or the princess of discs. Byt then, for someone new, I think the Aeon is the most striking.
Cassandra022
29-02-2012, 09:02
Death. I am madly in love with the death card in the thoth - it's visually epic and so symbolically rich. And if it scares them off? Well, clearly they weren't prepared...i'd steer them towards the fluff deck aisle of the local barnes and noble and be on my way, lol.
Laura Borealis
29-02-2012, 09:07
I'd probably show them the Princess of Disks or the Ace of Cups.
Atu XX The Aeon. The ideas behind this card are the very essence of the New Aeon. Without that there would be no Thoth Tarot at all.
Knight of Discs...it does not best exemplify the Thoth but it is lovely :)
Atu XX The Aeon. The ideas behind this card are the very essence of the New Aeon. Without that there would be no Thoth Tarot at all.But would a non-tarot reader get this? It took me a while to *get* the Aeon card. With no theory I'd be lost.
There's something about the Three of Cups that really gets the energy of the deck for me, so deco and rhythmic and the lovely tactile red pomegranete-y surface to the Cups and the way they all interlink, like the deck itself.
Or the floating Fool. Or the Magus. Or the remote Queen of Cups.
But would a non-tarot reader get this? It took me a while to *get* the Aeon card. With no theory I'd be lost..
I beg to differ. In my experience non-readers pick up on the birth motif very quickly. It's usually experienced readers who have a hard time because they bring their Judgment-baggage with them.
Stormdancer
29-02-2012, 10:19
....show to non-tarot readers, those fully unfamiliar? What card best exemplifies
The deck (aside from the effective negative ones) in your opinion.
i want to share a bit of my passion with another forum crowd.
ThanksI'd go with either the Knight or Queen of Wands. Also the 7 of cups.
Terrapin
29-02-2012, 11:24
Lust and the Devil convey the uniqueness of the Thoth the best I think. They are so different than other traditions in tarot and convey Crowley's spirit which pervades the deck.
Polydeuces
29-02-2012, 12:52
I'm a pretty huge fan of the High Priestess and the Hermit myself. The priestess is just beautiful and you can spend quite awhile looking at the symbolism, whereas the hermit is simple and elegant :)
LRichard
29-02-2012, 13:15
XIV Art
Laura Borealis
29-02-2012, 15:12
The Queen of Cups is good, too. When I was first looking at a friend's Thoth, back in the day, I remember really liking that card and seeing a lot in it -- all the curving lines, and her reflection in the water, and all that.
I'd vote for ART also. I think it most encapsulates the philosophy of a magical tarot and its a stunning card. Many other cards are very attractive and could be considered for aesthetic reasons. I may also consider LUST, as it would achieve many of the same goals as ART, but more quickly weed out those I'm wasting my breath on ;)
Atu XX The Aeon. The ideas behind this card are the very essence of the New Aeon. Without that there would be no Thoth Tarot at all.
But would a non-tarot reader get this? It took me a while to *get* the Aeon card. With no theory I'd be lost.
There's something about the Three of Cups that really gets the energy of the deck for me, so deco and rhythmic and the lovely tactile red pomegranete-y surface to the Cups and the way they all interlink, like the deck itself.
Or the floating Fool. Or the Magus. Or the remote Queen of Cups.
I beg to differ. In my experience non-readers pick up on the birth motif very quickly. It's usually experienced readers who have a hard time because they bring their Judgment-baggage with them.
I am TOTALLY with Leffy on this one. Get through to people with the ART, the sheer BEAUTY of it. Once they are hooked on that, then is the time for symbols. We are talking about first impressions and spreading the joy, not "getting" the deck, for now. Your average first viewer isn't going to be looking to picking up on motifs. Sorry, but that's the way of it, Aeon. The "essence of the Aeon" isn't something a non-tarotist will give a piss about till later, whether or not the deck would have existed without it. :)
Art - possibly. I was running with cooler cards. :) (as in temperature !) And I like 3 cups, too.
jackdaw*
29-02-2012, 20:36
I'd go with the Priestess. Personal favourites are the Emperor and the Ace of Swords, but to me they don't convey the uniqueness of the Thoth.
Barleywine
29-02-2012, 21:32
This is a fascinating thread since it shows how each of us has personally assimilated Crowley's unique vision. I think I would choose the Tower, especially if the person I was talking to was already familiar with the RWS version. The "jaws of Dis belching flame" and the Eye of Horus/Shiva are a distinct departure from the more typical "lightning-struck" motif, while still reaching the same conclusion. But the Aeon would also be a good choice since Crowley's stated purpose was to "depart completely from the tradition of the cards, in order to carry on that tradition" (and it is a consummately beautiful card). Art would be a good option for me as well since I spent a good deal of time puzzling over and coming to grips with its practical implications. Not sure about Lust; the uninitiated might fixate on the overt sexuality and miss the "joy of strength exercised" emphasis, which is much more dynamic than the "offsetting forces" paradigm evident in the tradition (although Case had an interesting perception that the Woman is opening the jaws of the Lion and allowing it to "speak," not holding them closed).
I quote the OP.
....show to non-tarot readers, those fully unfamiliar? What card best exemplifies
The deck (aside from the effective negative ones) in your opinion.
i want to share a bit of my passion with another forum crowd.
We are talking about people with NO tarot knowledge. So all these posts with "especially if they were already familiar with ..." are guessing wrongly. So are those that mention the tradition of the cards. The OP is just trying to get them interested FIRST. Traditions etc I assume come later. So does how we have all assimilated Crowley's vision. (I certainly haven't achieved that yet - after years of trying :D)
those fully unfamiliar I assume means exactly what it says. So the cards I picked were just picked for their attractiveness, for how they could draw others in to the art work of the deck as a start point.
Barleywine
29-02-2012, 21:55
I quote the OP.
We are talking about people with NO tarot knowledge. So all these posts with "especially if they were already familiar with ..." are guessing wrongly. So are those that mention the tradition of the cards. The OP is just trying to get them interested FIRST. Traditions etc I assume come later. So does how we have all assimilated Crowley's vision. (I certainly haven't achieved that yet - after years of trying :D)
I assume means exactly what it says. So the cards I picked were just picked for their attractiveness, for how they could draw others in to the art work of the deck as a start point.
Point taken. But I doubt very much that I would start off a complete neophyte with the Thoth. Them's deep waters for a non-swimmer :)
Point taken. But I doubt very much that I would start off a complete neophyte with the Thoth. Them's deep waters for a non-swimmer :)
Them is. I iz good swimmer and I iz paddling hard !
But what the OP hopes to do seems to be just getting them INTERESTED and looking at something he loves - not initiate them ! Not everyone will ever want a crash course - but many MANY people love the art for its own sake.
LOADS of people I know look at my cards just to look; they know nothing of tarot, and never will, but they will say what a lovely image this or that one is. I think that is part of what the OP hopes for. If someone from that other forum expresses a real interest in looking further - great, but still...
Barleywine
29-02-2012, 22:30
Nice summation. With that in mind, the Empress or one of the more lush Cups is where I would go with it. I would probably avoid the more "arcane" or unsettling stuff.
closrapexa
29-02-2012, 22:32
I'll side with gregory on this one, that's why I chose not the most "tarot" cards, but the nicest, or most interesting visually. The Aeon is one such card; even if you don't know what it means, it is still striking. The Princess of Discs is among the best drawn in the whole deck (I've read rumors that it was the last one painted, which, even if untrue, is still a romantic idea:) )
The Aeon is striking all right. I don't happen to like it, myself. So hit me :D
(Of course, I am the one who also hates Michelangelo's David, so clearly I have NO taste ! :laugh:)
closrapexa
29-02-2012, 22:39
gregory, why does every conversation with you inevitably lead to huge breasts and oily chests?:)
Once they are hooked on that, then is the time for symbols.
But symbols by virtue of what they are do communicate something to the veiwer even if they don't consciously know the intended meaning. Isn't this the whole basis of intuitive reading?
We are talking about first impressions and spreading the joy, not "getting" the deck, for now.
Just to be clear I did not say anything about "getting" the deck. The angle I was thinking of is the underlying subconscious connection to the image. The non-verbal communication that occurs during the viewing of a card. Whether someone consciously "gets" it is beside the point and is not what I was trying to say. :)
Your average first viewer isn't going to be looking to picking up on motifs. Sorry, but that's the way of it, Aeon.
Really? I've sat with "Thoth n00bs" and listened to their first reactions. It's surprising how many start talking about ideas of birth, gestation, and growth. They might not understand the details of the symbolism, but whether they know it or not they are alreay heading in the right direction.
The "essence of the Aeon" isn't something a non-tarotist will give a piss about till later, whether or not the deck would have existed without it. :)
Gregory, I think there's been a miscommunication somewhere along the line. When I said the essence of the Aeon I am refering to the developing child motif. People do pick up on this theme without knowing any of the technicalities. This non-verbal communication of an idea is what I was getting at. It makes no difference at all that a newbie may be ignorant of the specific meaning behind the symbolism, they are still able to subconsciously connect to the central theme of the image. And that theme is the very essence of the Aeon of the Child.
Barleywine
29-02-2012, 23:50
Far be it from me to carp, but we "Thoth-ites" do tend to over-intellectualize our veneration of the deck. The challenge - at least in my experience - has been to back it down a notch or two when reading for someone who has had no exposure to it or similar complex wisdom. This is one reason I had to write myself an alternate (perhaps supplemental is a better word) delineation for Art, to make the abstract concrete enough to bring to bear on a practical question.
But symbols by virtue of what they are do communicate something to the veiwer even if they don't consciously know the intended meaning. Isn't this the whole basis of intuitive reading?
YES. But this thread was someone showing cards to someone who does not read and may never do so.
Just to be clear I did not say anything about "getting" the deck. The angle I was thinking of is the underlying subconscious connection to the image. The non-verbal communication that occurs during the viewing of a card. Whether someone consciously "gets" it is beside the point and is not what I was trying to say. :)
They may not get anything subconsciously either.
Really? I've sat with "Thoth n00bs" and listened to their first reactions. It's surprising how many start talking about ideas of birth, gestation, and growth. They might not understand the details of the symbolism, but whether they know it or not they are already heading in the right direction.
RIGHT direction ?
They MAY just also see a lovely picture, the end. RIGHT often has nothing to do with liking art. It is possible to appreciate the art of this deck and go no further.
That aside - lucky you, maybe.
Gregory, I think there's been a miscommunication somewhere along the line. When I said the essence of the Aeon I am referring to the developing child motif. People do pick up on this theme without knowing any of the technicalities. This non-verbal communication of an idea is what I was getting at. It makes no difference at all that a newbie may be ignorant of the specific meaning behind the symbolism, they are still able to subconsciously connect to the central theme of the image. And that theme is the very essence of the Aeon of the Child.
It is - to people who pick it up. Not everyone does. REALLY and TRULY, Aeon - NOT EVERYONE DOES ! I knew exactly what you meant. But - we are not all you, and not everyone's subconscious works as yours, and the people you have shown cards to, do. (grammar; too full of cold to fix.)
You are steeped in Thoth and Crowley - sometimes you don't feel to me to be able to see that others don't, and never will, feel the way you do about it all, and will never take it that - "seriously" - for want of a better word - that - shock horror - they don't actually want to. I know how much it all means to you, and I know how earnestly you post about it all. But please do try to accept that to some people this deck will never be more than pretty pictures. Even with no non-verbal cues even of any kind. Some may actually and genuinely not be able to connect to this stuff. And for them - IT DOESN'T MATTER ! We don't all have to ! We really don't !
ETA (crossposted) Barleywine, I think I love you :love: THANK you !
YES. But this thread was someone showing cards to someone who does not read and may never do so.
You don't have to be a Tarot reader to pick up intuitive hints and subconscious propmptings from images. We all do it all the time. It's nothing special or exclusive to Tarot readers. We all have a subconscious mind that automatically responds to symbols. The only difference between readers and non-readers is that readers deliberately pay more attention to what is going on within them when they veiw a Tarot image. For non-readers an image may communicate nothing more than a vague feeling, but they are still getting something out of the image.
You don't get my point - but that's OK too. :)
We do NOT all do it ALL THE TIME. We can actually just look at an image, the end. I just took a few out quite deliberately. Pretty cats. Also a few ads clearly INTENDED to make me react subconsciously (cue Vance Packard, for those old enough). Nada.
My personal anecdote regarding the Thoth deck and the Aeon card:
When I got my first copy of the deck at 16 years old, I didn't have any tarot experience at all and managed to miss the concept of tarot books entirely. I bought two decks from the store's rather limited selection, chosen by the pictures on the front of the boxes.
The Thoth went straight back in the drawer (not to resurface for 10+ years) based on my reactions to two cards: the Fool, who I thought looked like a creepy methed-out leprechaun, and the Aeon, who I thought looked like a very femme but ditzy hermaphrodite with an 80's side ponytail chewing on her fingernail. To say that the deck didn't speak to me at that point would have been a massive understatement. :P
My personal anecdote regarding the Thoth deck and the Aeon card:
When I got my first copy of the deck at 16 years old, I didn't have any tarot experience at all and managed to miss the concept of tarot books entirely. I bought two decks from the store's rather limited selection, chosen by the pictures on the front of the boxes.
The Thoth went straight back in the drawer (not to resurface for 10+ years) based on my reactions to two cards: the Fool, who I thought looked like a creepy methed-out leprechaun, and the Aeon, who I thought looked like a very femme but ditzy hermaphrodite with an 80's side ponytail chewing on her fingernail. To say that the deck didn't speak to me at that point would have been a massive understatement. :P
I love that ! Thanks ! No hint of the birth thing ??? ;)
I love that ! Thanks ! No hint of the birth thing ??? ;)
It's not that it's so difficult to pick up on the womb imagery with the little fetuses at the bottom... It's more that, at 16 and at absolute zero in terms of tarot experience, I didn't really even have a concept of what I was even looking AT.
I had no concept of "tarot trumps as archetypes", and the only thing I had to compare it to was a RWS deck. Looking at the RWS deck, I saw mostly figures I thought I understood - humans, angels, devil etc. - front and center in each card. Even though I know now that the figure on the World card in the RWS is supposed to be a hermaphrodite, the bits that would clue me in on that are covered so I didn't pick up on stuff like that to find it confusing.
Looking at the Aeon card, the part that stuck out to me was the central figure (comparing it to the visual composition of the RWS I assumed it was the important part), and (likely because I was 16) I got really hung up on her hairdo. For whatever reason I found the side ponytail more puzzling than the penis, and it was enough to distract me completely from anything else that might going on there. :P
Well that's where I reckon the OP's people will be coming from, see.
absolute zero in terms of tarot experience, I didn't really even have a concept of what I was even looking AT.
GoldenWolf
01-03-2012, 01:25
I agree with Aeon about people picking up the meaning of the cards even when they previously know nothing of Tarot. I prefer face-to-face readings because I think that having a querant look at the card images that are laid out allows them to experience the cards in a more direct way than me reading and interpreting them through my filter of experience and associations which may or may not resonate with them. Sometimes they can articulate the thoughts and impressions that come up. Sometimes not especially if they are a "feeling" type of person. Thay may have that experience yet not be able to express it to someone else very well. I imagine that process can continue beyond the actual reading.
There's a reason that Tarot is symbolic. It speaks to our subconscious and can cleverly bypass the censor of the conscious mind that can smother a truth to death with over-rationalization and well meaning excuses. Otherwise, we could all just use decks with affirmations and keywords only and find it as satisfying as tarot ;)
We could. But Lokismile just wants to show cards from a deck he - as a tarot reader - loves, to some people with no particular interest in tarot. Whole different ballgame there. Reading of any kind is not even marginally involved - yet at least.
closrapexa
01-03-2012, 02:31
If I may mediate, although I agree with gregory that the actual content of the pictures is immaterial, as long as they look pretty, I have read Aeon say in the past that the Thoth deck does speak for itself as an independent entity. I think that the root of this discussion is whether Tarot evokes feelings and associations, whether or not it is in the context of "Tarot" at all.
I think it does, even laymen can understand images and what they are meant to evoke, if they just look. That, after all, is the whole point of art in general. If art did not evoke anything, it would not exist, or would not be art. Of course, the question of "what is art" is too big to be discussed here, but I think we all agree on the basic premise that the Thoth is composed of art. It is also a tool similar to a fork or hammer, but it the root of it, is pictures painted on paper. Even a fork or hammer evoke certain associations; Neptune's trident, Thor's hammer. A Tarot deck does so much more, and much more purposefully.
One may as well ask in an art gallery if the pictures are meant to be viewed only by art experts or laymen. Unfortunately, the state of the art world today is in a large part the former, but the Thoth belongs to the older generation of the latter, and the emotional connections are readily made, as in, for example, the RWS.
However, I still think the OP asked a very simple question which, if differently worded meant "which cards do you think are the prettiest."
GoldenWolf
01-03-2012, 02:34
I understand that he wants to show a single card to non-Tarot readers so that they can better understand his interest in the Thoth deck. He's asking which one should it be. Many people are picking what they regard as the most visually pleasing so that it can be admired as art. That certainly is one way to go on this issue. In contrast, Aeon418 and some others picked the Aeon card because they feel that it conveys the essence of the Thoth deck and Crowley's teachings. He thinks that can be conveyed to someone visually without any prior knowledge of or background in tarot, Thelema, or Crowley. Based on my experiences with Tarot, I agree with Aeon418. i think that can happen on a subconscious level if not consciously.
Either approach has risks. Show them the nice, pretty card(s) and they may be dismayed at the rest of the deck later on. Show them the Aeon and maybe they can't get it on a leval that makes sense to them or that they can articulate. Personally, I would pick the Lovers which is to me, both visually appealing and chock full of multi-layered alchemical and occult symbols for their subconscious mind to mull over. Plus the reconciliation of opposites is one of my favorite concepts in this deck.
I want to hear from Lokismile.
just keep the crazy footed hangman away from them
Laura Borealis
01-03-2012, 03:12
just keep the crazy footed hangman away from them
God yes. I love the Thoth and that card really bugs me.
perdurabofan
01-03-2012, 12:03
....show to non-tarot readers, those fully unfamiliar? What card best exemplifies
The deck (aside from the effective negative ones) in your opinion.
i want to share a bit of my passion with another forum crowd.
Thanks
I like DuQuette's joke about the Hermit: "...If I
were that egg I'd be nervous!"
closrapexa
01-03-2012, 19:37
I like DuQuette's joke about the Hermit: "...If I
were that egg I'd be nervous!"
lol, however I think the non-initiated would be taken aback with Crowley's Hermit, symbolizing the act of sexual union :)
perdurabofan
01-03-2012, 20:04
lol, however I think the non-initiated would be taken aback with Crowley's Hermit, symbolizing the act of sexual union :)
That was post count 1,947 the year
the year the Master Therion moved on.
I can't believe this place. It's like a whole city
of Crowleyites. I had no idea there were so
people in one place like this. :)
closrapexa
01-03-2012, 20:10
And how fitting it is that that post talked about sex!
And yes, there are some wonderfully knowledgeable people here, I am dwarfed again and again by everyone else :)
perdurabofan
01-03-2012, 21:14
And how fitting it is that that post talked about sex!
And yes, there are some wonderfully knowledgeable people here, I am dwarfed again and again by everyone else :)
I think Crowley knew long before Madison
Avenue did that "any publicity is good
publicity--just spell my name right."
People may be taken aback by his exploits
and cover their faces with their hands but
I bet they're still peeking. LOL
Lokismile
03-03-2012, 07:54
Hi all,
Im currently at work so i must be brief, heres a bit of info:
The image will go on a forum in a hobby / interest thread.
the forum is for pipe smoking enthusiasts ( myself included)
Being a meat and potato crowd (im a vegetarian) i desire a card they can more likely relate to.
I actually considered the chariot or emperor
We enjoy sharing our lives with one another.
Further thoughts ?
Both those cards sound good for what you need.
Maybe the Chariot is more suitable for the pipesmokers. :) Just a gut feeling (I've been looking at that one a lot lately...)
frac_ture
03-03-2012, 11:40
....show to non-tarot readers, those fully unfamiliar? What card best exemplifies
The deck (aside from the effective negative ones) in your opinion.
i want to share a bit of my passion with another forum crowd.
The first Thoth deck image that really sunk into my subconscious, and then continued to pop back up into my waking mind every now and then for no discernible reason whatsoever, was that of the Adjustment card. It just conjured for me this concept of huge archetypal forces at work in our daily, mundane lives. I don't know that it best exemplifies the Thoth deck, although it's certainly one of the group of Major Arcana cards that Crowley renamed and put his mark upon, so it might at least be a decent candidate...?
The next card to have a similar effect on me (and another one Crowley renamed and reworked a bit) was the Universe.
I would have to say the Lust card - but my favorite is the Knight of Disks
Lokismile
03-03-2012, 16:07
I would have to say the Lust card - but my favorite is the Knight of Disks
The Knight of Discs is an incredible image. I'm pondering that as an option.
Lust would most likely not fall within forum posting guidelines for content. The site is a friendly one, but a tightly run ship.
@ Aeon -- I follow your advice and experience quite often on Aeclectic. While I appreciate the importance of the Aeon card, it has always been my least favorite of the Major Arcana aesthetically.
Adjustment is a strong consideration ... a thought provoking image.
a few more days and I'll select one. Any last thoughts fellow enthusiasts? This is an interesting thread, and I appreciate the feedback.
Lokismile
07-03-2012, 01:36
Thanks to everyone for the considerable amount of dialogue and thought you shared concerning this process.
I shared with my friends the following images this morning:
The Emperor
Love
Death
Peace
I would have gone with Adjustment instead of the Emperor, but my scan quality was rather poor.
I'll let you know how they feel, it will be an interesting discussion for many of them.
Keep spreading the word, and cheers from California
~ Loki
wildgypsyheart
07-03-2012, 13:35
....I was so looking forward to sharing my one card, reading through the engaging debate, lol. Always a day late in forum land...
Glad things went well Lokismile :)