View Full Version : Mary El Tarot - The Lovers
Bat Chicken
01-03-2012, 13:02
http://www.mary-el.com/06.html
This is such an active and elegant card. It seems to flow and morph. The theme of sacred geometry appears here in the headdress of the female. It demonstrates the golden ratio by echoing the nautilus shell.
She is dark form, passive yin, the moon. He is light spirit, the active male yang, sun, who appears to flow into her arms and is almost indistinct. The alchemical element of fire seems to be the activating force. They seem to be merging as if they are the marriage of matter and spirit.
The angel in the background looks like statues of Mary. There are barely visible figures to her left. Thoughts?
Hm. His arm and hair against the red folds looks like a penis ejaculating. Take the dots suggesting facial features off the angel and it's more explicitly evocative of genital sex.
Laura Borealis
01-03-2012, 15:47
Beautiful, graceful lines !
Though this isn't like any other Lovers card I've seen, it hearkens back to the traditional symbolism too. The angelic face above the couple stands in for the cupid or angel on older versions (as well as the clitoris of those sweeping vulva folds). I hadn't seen the shadowy figure in the left corner... it almost looks like it's playing a lute? Is there one on the right, too?
I think there are definitely allusions to the alchemical marriage. We have the red and white. I forget at the moment what these are in alchemy -- sulfur and salt? It's late and I can't remember. And the couple, one black and one white as in the Thoth, which definitely depicts the alchemical marriage. In the Thoth, the bride is white and the groom is dark -- here, the opposite. I wonder why?
BrightEye
01-03-2012, 17:51
What bothers me about this image is that the lovers don't look in love. The expression on their faces is blank and it looks as if they're not involved at all in what they're doing, or with each other. Each of them seems to want to be somewhere else and not in the arms of the beloved.
Good point.
The Rider-Waite lovers don't look in love either.
BrightEye
01-03-2012, 18:54
Good point.
The Rider-Waite lovers don't look in love either.
I know. But these here are intimately entwined, the RWS Lovers are not. Their facial expressions don't reflect the intimacy of the embrace. That's just my view though.
I see the same. The man seems pleased. The woman's expression reminds me of the old description of how to deal with unwelcome sex--Lie back and think of England.
Looks like both could use a cigarette.
http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/close-your-eyes-and-think-of-england.html
I wonder why the snail imagery.
BrightEye
01-03-2012, 19:17
Snails are bisexual even though they still engage in sexual activity. Maybe to express the union of male and female? The slime left by snails has also be linked to sex, but I can't remember where I read that...
Good catch, bisexual snails.
And the apparent unfolding-ness of the Fibonacci sequence in the shell is like a developing embryo. The ridged surface is an inside-out vagina.
Or something. Or everything :laugh: It's wonderful.
Here's just posted on snails and sex, by Firemaiden in the History & Iconography forum!
I recently remembered the snail in the Seven of Pentacles when reading this essay about the famous snail in the Annunciation by Francesco del Cossa (http://intranslation.brooklynrail.org/french/the-snail%E2%80%99s-gaze)
I'm convinced that the snail in the seven of P is a quotation of this painting. Which of course brings in a whole new conversation - the Seven of P as an annunciation ? The falcon as the holy spirit - dove in disguise ? or in antitheses ?
eta. So far, this card, the Hierophant and the Fool put me in mind of Frieda Harris's painting style. Great swirls.
Laura Borealis
01-03-2012, 22:16
That reminds me of the snail sequence from the beautiful documentary, Microcosmos.
Snail love: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BEva0pT9ndg
Requiella
02-03-2012, 13:37
I'm really liking the biracial aspect.
Bat Chicken
02-03-2012, 14:43
And the apparent unfolding-ness of the Fibonacci sequence in the shell is like a developing embryo. The ridged surface is an inside-out vagina.
Or something. Or everything :laugh: It's wonderful.
......
So far, this card, the Hierophant and the Fool put me in mind of Frieda Harris's painting style. Great swirls.
Yes! I agree that there is that element of projective geometry in this card.
I love the idea that the sequence is like a developing embryo. Very cool idea, Debra!
Is everybody OK with me just barreling on with the cards? I kind of feel that I have been taking over. Shall I continue or let somebody else have a go at starting the threads?
RunningWild
02-03-2012, 15:37
Is everybody OK with me just barreling on with the cards? I kind of feel that I have been taking over. Shall I continue or let somebody else have a go at starting the threads?
Please do! I still don't have the physical deck yet but my journal on the deck is filling up nicely already :laugh:
Bat Chicken
03-03-2012, 05:11
:D Awesome, thanks, folks.... I'll get on the next one this afternoon.
RW - I haven't got it yet either! :laugh: Hopefully in the next few days....
Laura Borealis
03-03-2012, 05:25
Yes! I agree that there is that element of projective geometry in this card.
I love the idea that the sequence is like a developing embryo. Very cool idea, Debra!
Is everybody OK with me just barreling on with the cards? I kind of feel that I have been taking over. Shall I continue or let somebody else have a go at starting the threads?
I am totally cool with it. :thumbsup:
I was wondering, with the minors/courts -- it might be useful to discuss them in groups or sets, since there are aspects that will carry across suits. I'm thinking of the Aces and the Fours in particular. The Aces are all hermaphroditic figures, the Fours have no human/animal figures in them, etc. What do you think? (Should this suggestion be in its own thread?)
Bat Chicken
03-03-2012, 05:33
That sounds like a great idea.
Yes - I think we should open a general discussion thread for that and other general observations. I'll do that this afternoon as well and let Sulis know....
Eyebright
05-03-2012, 01:52
Who or what is the woman looking at in the card? She seems to me to be looking at something out of the frame of the card?
Also is the shell bit behind the male figure a part of him or a continuation of the female? I can't tell
The man is white, don't white lillies in RWS mean spiritual purity? And red is for the material world? To me this card looks like the man is worshipping the female, to gain spiritual enlightenment? To free himself from the red physical/material world surrounding him?
Also white= yang which is male energy? Black = yin which is female? Have I got that the right way round?
Has anyone read American Gods by Neil Gaiman? Theres a scene earlyish in the book where a man is with a prostitute (who is really a Goddess) and who has sex with her which is a way of worshipping her and he ends up going inside her (kind of like a reverse birth!)...well this card reminds me of that scene
Bat Chicken
05-03-2012, 04:43
Who or what is the woman looking at in the card? She seems to me to be looking at something out of the frame of the card?
Yeah, I noticed that too.
Also is the shell bit behind the male figure a part of him or a continuation of the female? I can't tell
I am pretty sure all the dark shell parts are her. The original Lovers had two dark females. I wonder why she changed it?
The man is white, don't white lillies in RWS mean spiritual purity? And red is for the material world? To me this card looks like the man is worshipping the female, to gain spiritual enlightenment? To free himself from the red physical/material world surrounding him?
Love this.. You have a great point here. The only way for Spirit to know itself is through 'other'. You have touched on a great topic for discussion here....
I think there is a Qabalistic element here. I am just reading about it and learning, but my instincts without checking any facts is Tiphareth into Malkuth. I see the Prince and Princess in the visual symbolism, That said, in the age of the figures, I see the King and Queen - which would be Chokmah and Binah, I believe.
Also white= yang which is male energy? Black = yin which is female? Have I got that the right way round?
Yup!
Has anyone read American Gods by Neil Gaiman? Theres a scene earlyish in the book where a man is with a prostitute (who is really a Goddess) and who has sex with her which is a way of worshipping her and he ends up going inside her (kind of like a reverse birth!)...well this card reminds me of that scene
That sounds like a book worth looking up. I know his work as a graphic novelist.... I think?
Eyebright
05-03-2012, 05:15
It's a really interesting novel, and there is another that is in a similar vein called the Anansi Boys. I believe he does graphic novels as well, very talented man!
Ahhh Qabalah...I know nothing about it! Can you point me in the direction of any books or websites that could help me with this topic? I really think I need to learn it in order to fully appreciate this deck.
In a lot of cultures isn't there the idea of the sacred feminine and men would "worship" the female form (sacred sex), in order to gain spiritual enlightenment? And in witchcraft there is the Great Rite, where the male and female energies unite (through sex)....
I found this paragraph here that I felt resonated for me, "Today the Great Rite deals with the essence of feminine and masculine energy as it relates to the God and Goddess. The idea is that in order to establish true Divinity within oneself, you need to accept and join your two natures together. We are all part masculine and part feminine within our being. Only when we learn to accept the nature of both can we discover the true divinity within" on this website (http://www.paganspath.com/magik/greatrite.htm)
Bat Chicken
05-03-2012, 05:23
Thank you for that link! I'll have a look....
As for Qabalah, the simplest intro is Lon Milo DuQuette's "Chicken Qabalah". With that, books like Wang's Qabalistic Tarot are a little easier to bite into. The latter is the one beside my chair at the moment. It is pretty complex, but worth the effort, IMHO!
Requiella
05-03-2012, 09:51
Love this.. You have a great point here. The only way for Spirit to know itself is through 'other'. You have touched on a great topic for discussion here....
Continuing with this idea for a bit, I ran across something this afternoon in _Seventy-Eight Degrees_:
"Notice that while the man looks at the woman the woman looks at the angel. If the male is indeed reason, then rationality can only reach beyond its limits through the medium of passion. By its nature reason controls and contains, while passion tends to break down all limits. Our tradition has set the body and rational mind at odds with each other. The Tarot teaches us that we must unite them...and that it is not the controlling power of reason that raises the senses to a higher level, but, rather, the other way around" (Pollack, 1997, p. 62).
Although Pollack is interpreting the traditional RWS Lovers card, the gist of what she's saying is applicable here. The woman isn't looking at the angel, but her gaze transcends the immediate physical situation.
But she's apparently passionless--seems to feel nothing.
Requiella
05-03-2012, 11:19
But she's apparently passionless--seems to feel nothing.
I'm not getting the same thing from this image. I can see where you are; I just don't see it the same way. :)
LOL when I look like that my husband tries harder ;)
Anyway, scanning the Major arcana, most of the figures seem expressionless--the exceptions are the Sun, Moon and Hanged Man.
BrightEye
05-03-2012, 16:11
LOL when I look like that my husband tries harder ;)
Lol, same here!
Requiella
06-03-2012, 01:10
Lol, same here!
Ha! Well, put it this way--there's not an expression of ecstasy on her face, no. Yet, her expression is ambiguous enough to read in a variety of things, I'd say.
Let me try to make my point a different way: for me, the card is more about union of opposites than the sex act itself, so I'm not as concerned about whether they look passionate or not. The archetypal energy is there, for sure, in that the card as a whole evokes passion and union.
Bat Chicken
06-03-2012, 02:31
Continuing with this idea for a bit, I ran across something this afternoon in _Seventy-Eight Degrees_:
"Notice that while the man looks at the woman the woman looks at the angel. If the male is indeed reason, then rationality can only reach beyond its limits through the medium of passion. By its nature reason controls and contains, while passion tends to break down all limits. Our tradition has set the body and rational mind at odds with each other. The Tarot teaches us that we must unite them...and that it is not the controlling power of reason that raises the senses to a higher level, but, rather, the other way around" (Pollack, 1997, p. 62).
Although Pollack is interpreting the traditional RWS Lovers card, the gist of what she's saying is applicable here. The woman isn't looking at the angel, but her gaze transcends the immediate physical situation.
I think it very much applies! The uniting of reason and passion... perfect. Reason gets us only so far. However, the 'one or the other' argument is destructive. Thanks for adding the quote, R!
Laura Borealis
06-03-2012, 02:43
Has anyone read American Gods by Neil Gaiman? Theres a scene earlyish in the book where a man is with a prostitute (who is really a Goddess) and who has sex with her which is a way of worshipping her and he ends up going inside her (kind of like a reverse birth!)...well this card reminds me of that scene
Especially with the giant bajingo in the background! ;)
Requiella
06-03-2012, 03:54
I think it very much applies! The uniting of reason and passion... perfect. Reason gets us only so far. However, the 'one or the other' argument is destructive. Thanks for adding the quote, R!
Sure! :)
Yes, that was my reading of it too. They are opposites: light and dark, internal and external, passionate and reason, but they have found love in the union of the two. I think it's very beautiful. I also love the biracial aspect of it. :)
GryffinSong
15-11-2012, 04:54
I just got this deck today. My first impressions of the Lovers ...
Old and young. Black and white. Male and female. Communion of opposities, tying us together in a dance of love. We look within. We look without. Together we can do anything. We can learn anything. We are whole. We are entire. We are full. Of wisdom, fear, future, past, love, hate, love, love, love. Unity. Together. Wholeness.