From Marseilles to RWS

DavidLee

I just got back into Tarot about 8 months ago after a 15 year break following my teen years. At the shop, the Marseilles jumped out at me so I bought it and took it home. After seeing that the pips weren't illustrated, I considered using a different deck, but ultimately a series of events kept me with the Marseilles.

I bought Jodorowsky's Way of Tarot and used it to guide me (thought I don't have the Camoin deck. I skip over the parts related specifically to that deck.) The numerology that he uses in the book is what I have largely been falling back on when it comes to the pips, though less and less lately as I settle in on my own interpretation.

Recently I picked up a RWS deck and for some of the cards my own interpretation of the Marseilles card doesn't match RWS' interpretation at all.

Now I realize that this isn't bad in and of itself; each deck can have its own method of interpretation. But I feel like if I don't go with RWS interpretation, I am somehow "separating" myself from other Tarotists who use and are most familiar with these interpretations.

Are there are any of you who don't really work with RWS interpretations much? How "standard" is the meaning of each card?
 

Greg Stanton

In England and America, the RWS meanings prevail, but in the rest of Europe, another set of meanings are more traditional — though these don't correspond with numerological meanings either.

You need to go with your gut. It sounds like you've already established a system in your head. Breaking with that system will cause you some psychic problems down the road, as the way the universe is communicating with you will have to be re-learned, like learning another language.

There is a book by Thomas Saunders called "The Authentic Tarot", with which you may resonate, as he describes a method for interpreting the pips based on numerology, as you have done. Perfectly valid and effective.

Also, I highly recommend The Mystical Origins of the Tarot by Paul Huson. The author does a brilliant job of sifting through the documented historical meanings of the cards and finds a lot of common ground. Also, his Dame Fortune's Wheel Tarot is similar to a Marseilles, but has illustrated pips that correspond to the work he did in Mystical Origins. I find this deck gives startlingly rich and accurate readings.
 

Chiriku

DavidLee, welcome.

I think it should probably be noted that you're asking this question of a self-selected group of people. Most of the people who frequent Aecletic Tarot are, in my experience, especially "up to speed" on the various systems of tarot, tarot history, etc.

There are certainly many tarotists out there who are not on AT who are equally engrossed in these subjects (e.g. I was, for years before I joined). However, there are also many readers I've encountered in the offline world who have no interest in or knowledge of the differences among various tarot systems.

So, if you asked a random selection of tarotists out there in the U.S. (where you appear to be located), you would most likely find that the RWS and its meanings for the Minors are king.

But on an international forum like this that is self-selecting towards people who are "preoccupied with" tarot (charitable phrase for "tarot geeks"), you will probably find not only that people are more accepting of a Marseilles-ish approach being learned before RWS meanings...some might even express outright delight and approval at the thought!

Some people, after all, believe that the RWS and the Golden Dawn in a broader sense hold entirely too much sway over the hearts and minds of tarotists in several parts of the world (particularly Anglophone countries).

EDIT: It is my opinion that a person who is interested in more aspects of tarot than finding a deck, learning it, and reading effectively with it would do well to learn RWS meanings at some point, even if only in addition to the first system they learned.

If your only goal is to be able to use a tarot deck effectively and be a good reader, there is no need to learn more than one system. I dare say most readers in history have only
known the one system they adopted--however they arrived at knowledge of that system (even if they just innovated their own meanings for non-scenic pips).

But if you want to swim about in the world of tarot in other ways, RWS is a biggie.It is inescapable.


Also, I highly recommend The Mystical Origins of the Tarot by Paul Huson. The author does a brilliant job of sifting through the documented historical meanings of the cards and finds a lot of common ground. Also, his Dame Fortune's Wheel Tarot is similar to a Marseilles, but has illustrated pips that correspond to the work he did in Mystical Origins. I find this deck gives startlingly rich and accurate readings.

This is very good advice. That book is a must-have, IMO. It offers comparative meanings across several systems of tarot, all of the major ones.

Greg Stanton and I share a love for the Dame deck, as well. The only thing I would caveat is that the Minors, although they feature fully scenic illustrations in the manner of RWS, are based on a system that is different from the Golden Dawn (which was the Order that spawned the creators of both the RWS and Thoth decks). The system is that of Etteilla, who came after the Marseilles (and first crystallized a set of divinatory meanings for tarot), but who also pre-dates all of those 20th century GD fellows.

There are obvious influences of Etteilla in all systems that came after him (including the GD), but the Dame deck is still a different system altogether from RWS. Personally, it has always been my goal to learn all the major systems, but until Huson's deck, there was no seminal deck (for me, that is) to learn Etteilla's meanings. He has illustrated the Minors in the same way Pamela Colman Smith did for Waite's GD-inflected meanings.
 

Chiriku

And to answer for myself:

I learned on two RWS clone decks (illustrated by 1980s/90s creators, but closely patterned after the RWS scenes). The majority of books where I lived (the U.S.) featured RWS or RWS-clone images, so it made sense to use decks in the same vein.

The next systems I dabbled in were numerology-based Marseilles interpretations and the Thoth, but I never got anywhere near the level of familiarity with them that I did with RWS. Then, after a long tarot hiatus (not as long as yours), I returned to see that Huson's deck had come along--and I finally got to take a good crack at Etteilla.

Do I still think of RWS scenes whenever I turn over a Minor arcanum in any deck? Yes. Can't deny it. They flash in my brain. But then I consciously try to move past that and look at the image and system I'm working with at the moment.

I liken it to learning languages as an adult. When one is an adult learning a second language, one often can't help but try to "translate" the new language into the first language they learned. We're told by experts that we shouldn't try to do that, that we should approach it like children learning a language fresh for the first time, with no other points of reference...but it's difficult, very difficult, to keep from instinctively always trying to translate from the language you knew first and best.

That's how it is for me with RWS and the Golden Dawn in general.

Mind you, I don't dislike the Golden Dawn's framework. I just don't like being more closely wedded to them than I'd like to be.
 

Zephyros

I don't use the RWS, I use the Thoth but like others said, I think the Golden Dawn has far too much of a monopoly on Tarot in general. On the one hand, I consider myself a scholar of the Golden Dawn, and follow it's rules pretty much, but I think that there is and should be room for other schools of thought as well.

I don't think the RWS is inescapable, as someone said, just because the majority of readers use it. I've said it before in other posts, I think one of the problems with the RWS is that it is, in a way, "too good" and too accessible, making it, for many, "the" Tarot deck. If you use the Marseilles, then I congratulate you, it predates anything the Golden Dawn has done, and many of the rules and "right way of doing things" we think of come from the Golden Dawn, but the Marseilles is beyond all that "nonsense."

Beyond all esoteric rules, Kabbalistic attributions and astrological associations is the root intuitive aspect of Tarot, which, from your post, it seems you are getting well in hand, so I wouldn't worry about it. If it works, don't fix it.

I might however add that although many people use the RWS, most don't use it "correctly" in the Golden Dawn way of using it. The modern era has seen the breaking down of walls and the intuitive aspects rule. For example, one would think that any Tarot book with RWS card meanings would follow the Golden Dawn's Book T, or at least the PKT, but I have seen many that deviate or even contradict them. So, even what we think of as "standard" isn't really standard at all and in a way, the RWS is already a clone of itself.

Now, if I may be so bold, if, like Chiriku suggested, you will be interested in branching out to the Golden Dawn which, again like Chiriku said, goes beyond merely learning how to do readings, why not skip the RWS and try the Thoth? It is very Golden Dawn, different enough to be, well, different, and in terms of spiritual journeys is unparalleled in my view.

I want to start concentrating on the Marseilles some day, but right now I both don't have money and I'm up to my ears in Thoth, and can't see an end to it, so it will have to wait.
 

DavidLee

Wow, what amazing replies! Thank you all.

I think a lot of my apprehension is, at root, not actually related to the deck. I have a "memorized" (or numerology-based) meaning for each card that I can fall back on, but sometimes I blank and other times a meaning jumps right out at me. Now that I think on it, I suppose these are issues for new readers regardless of what deck they're using.

I will seriously think about picking up the Thoth deck as I really like the artwork and have just enough familiarity with it to know that it appeals to me. But between it and the books I want, I think it's better for now just to keep working with the Marseilles as much as I can. ;)
 

le_charior

Hello DavidLee and welcome to AT!

Nice to hear your story! And interesting that there are more people who start with the TdM (Tarot de Marseille). I did, too - about a year ago, and have never tried to learn the RWS system, even if I have some decks by now that are based on it. But I think it is very valid to start reading with non scenic pips. And I won't hide that I personally, for me, think it is the better system - more freedom, more room for intuition. Like an abstract painting gives you more to let your mind run free than a photorealistic image. But, as I said, my opinion! And maybe I will get into it one day, who knows!

But on an international forum like this that is self-selecting towards people who are "preoccupied with" tarot (charitable phrase for "tarot geeks"), you will probably find not only that people are more accepting of a Marseilles-ish approach being learned before RWS meanings...some might even express outright delight and approval at the thought!
Yes, that's me!

I think you came to a good place to learn and practice the TdM reading here! May I officially invite you to the TdM reading exchange, when you feel you are ready? The inscription for PM (private message) notifications for this lovely exchange circle is here: http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=166784
 

DavidLee

Well I've just come from our local Tarot Guild meeting - the second one I've been to.

For the first part of the meeting we did some exercises for which I used RWS. But after that we gave practice readings to each other. I used TdM with my partner and it went very well.

I think I've had a belief that scenic decks were better for reading for others, but I have had a number of comments/compliments/inquiries on my Marseilles deck. I think people are intrigued by it. And if it speaks to me and results in better readings, well, I think I'll just keep using it.
 

Sulis

DavidLee Welcome :).

I've used RWS based decks for years but I do use numerology in my readings and so for the last few months I've been using the wonderful CBD Tarot de Marseille.

I find reading with a TdM very freeing... You're not tied into someone else's idea of what a card means because there is no scene to interpret. There is plenty there though; the suit symbols, the vines, the flowers, the way the patterns repeat from one card to the next etc. You can also tie in each Minor to the Major of the same number, so for example all the Aces are aspects of Le Bateleur, all the 8s are aspects of Justice etc.

Please take a look at the Marseilles forum. There are loads of threads there about how to actually read the pips without having to impose another system on them and without having to memorise meanings (which in my opinion isn't actually reading the cards at all).
Here's a link: http://www.tarotforum.net/forumdisplay.php?f=38
 

Zephyros

I have to say I`ve always, in this forum and elswhere, admired people who use the TdM. The ability to make sense out of what appears to me to be nothing makes even my beloved Thoth look trite and childish by comparaison!