View Full Version : Is anyone familiar with this TdM from AGMuller?
garmonbozia
23-03-2012, 10:15
Hello,
Does anyone know anything about the Tarot de Marseille deck shown here?
http://www.lepalaisdutarot.com/Tarot-Marseille-Agm.htm
I cannot find much information about it on the internet other than in the link above, which is not much. I assumed I would be able to match it to an artist, but I've compared it to all the historical decks for which I could find images, and I cannot find anything that matches the lines.
Does anyone recognize this deck? Or is it an original design by AGMuller?
This site, which has an image for The Magician card which looks like a match to me, identifies it as 1870, Switzerland: http://occultlibrary.info/tarot/
More images from this deck: http://www.albideuter.de/html/m2-01.html
Any help is greatly appreciated!
I've asked about it before too (http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=117606)! Not much info forthcoming...
garmonbozia
23-03-2012, 11:06
If you are still looking for one, someone is selling them very cheaply on eBay. I got mine for under $10 and now that I have it, it is sort of driving me crazy that I cannot find out anything about it.
I am really new to learning about tarot cards, so I have no idea the best places to look.
I did manage to find this place which has been super helpful so far!
nemodomi
24-03-2012, 06:47
To locate other current vendors of this deck (or of any deck for that matter), one can do the following:
(1) Copy the URL address for the image of the deck box from the page at the first link in the lead post here. I.e. find the image on that page, right-click, select "copy image address/location". (Alternatively, choose "view/open the image", then copy the address from your browser's URL address field.)
Shortcut for this deck: just copy this:
http://www.lepalaisdutarot.com/Tarot/tarot-de-marseille-agmuller.jpg
(2) At http://images.google.com/ (*click the camera icon first*), and at http://www.tineye.com/, paste the image's URL address into the search fields. Hit ENTER.
(3) The resultant lists of search results will include several current vendors of this deck.
HTH! Call me an enabler. :-)
eltarot78
24-03-2012, 10:21
Hi garmonbozia and all,
this deck often confused as Gassmann/or in the worst case with Claude Burdel (very similar indeed to the 1st, and Switzerland also the 3)
http://a.trionfi.eu/WWPCM/decks03/d01995/d01995.htm
is one of the decks Joseph Henri Rochias published by mid-nineteenth century, a copy of which is in the British Museum
http://www.britishmuseum.org/research/search_the_collection_database/search_object_details.aspx?currentpage=1&fromadbc=ad&toadbc=ad&orig=/research/search_the_collection_database.aspx&partid=1&searchtext=rochias&objectid=3169768&numpages=10
Hi garmonbozia and all,
this deck often confused as Gassmann/or in the worst case with Claude Burdel (very similar indeed to the 1st, and Switzerland also the 3)
http://a.trionfi.eu/WWPCM/decks03/d01995/d01995.htm
is one of the decks Joseph Henri Rochias published by mid-nineteenth century, a copy of which is in the British Museum
http://www.britishmuseum.org/research/search_the_collection_database/search_object_details.aspx?currentpage=1&fromadbc=ad&toadbc=ad&orig=/research/search_the_collection_database.aspx&partid=1&searchtext=rochias&objectid=3169768&numpages=10
Wow!
Thanks for that eltarot :).
garmonbozia
25-03-2012, 03:15
Wow. Excellent information, thank you!
Print made by Jean Petit Pierre (?)
Published by Joseph Henri Rochias
by "published", does this mean that Rochias is the original designer?
These lines definitely match the lines on the cards in my AGMuller deck.
The coloration on the cards in the British Museum is amazing. It's a shame it does not also match.
garmonbozia
25-03-2012, 03:16
To locate other current vendors of this deck (or of any deck for that matter), one can do the following:
very useful! thank you!
By the colouring, I'd say that's basically the Tarot Classic. Close enough to do, I'd say.
http://www.aeclectic.net/tarot/cards/tarot-classic/
Beware of that store though. Their postage is TERRIFYING and when they sell you something that turns out to have been TOTALLY mislisted (and cost a lot) they will only give a SMALL credit against another order (why would I DO that ??? NEVER AGAIN !) and that only after 3 weeks of emails.
If you can bear it in German, I think this is it (remember Muller has been taken over...):
http://www.amazon.de/Tarotkarten-Marseille-Handbuch-Spiegel-Schicksals/dp/3908646103/ref=sr_1_44?ie=UTF8&qid=1332611432&sr=8-44
I can't find the same in French. Yet. I do actually HAVE it - what did you want to know ?
OOH it has an ISBN though:3-905-021-29-3 Which does come up in a few places.
The 2 coins reads Fabrique de Cartes a Schaffhouse. Which of course is NOT Muller's city. Just like the Tarot Classic, again. And there is the JR on the 4 coins. But the Classic has M for Muller, as I recall.
I see Boatwin on ebay has the Classic up for sale and listed as rare - at a whacking price...
Yeah, it's the same as the Tarot Classic by US Games, only, from the pictures I've seen and what I've read, the colors are richer and closer to the original. But the Muller one doesn't match the original colors exactly either. :)
Yeah, it's the same as the Tarot Classic by US Games, only, from the pictures I've seen and what I've read, the colors are richer and closer to the original. But the Muller one doesn't match the original colors exactly either. :)
They are indeed MUCH richer. But I haven't seen the original of course ! I always thought the Classic a bit bland.
I think it's lovely and I've just bought one.
What Marseilles pattern (if it is a Marseilles pattern) is it based on? Is Schaffhouse the pattern? It looks very different to the Conver.
Sorry if this all sounds very ignorant but I am quite ignorant about this sort of thing ;).
Schaffhouse was the location of the factory.
garmonbozia
25-03-2012, 06:19
Beware of that store though. Their postage is TERRIFYING and when they sell you something that turns out to have been TOTALLY mislisted (and cost a lot) they will only give a SMALL credit against another order (why would I DO that ??? NEVER AGAIN !) and that only after 3 weeks of emails.
Thanks gregory. It looks like the Tarot Classic and the AGMuller deck do share the same lines.
What store are you warning against?
lepalaisdetarot. The one with its name plastered across the images of that deck in your first post. The one shown as selling it.
Maybe others use it - but leaving aside the outrageous postage, their refusal to refund me for a deck that was TOTALLY wrongly listed and which cost me a lot and was actually a (perfectly nice) Lo Scarabeo deck (I already had it anyway) with the publisher's card and all evidence that it was theirs taken out, put in a bag with a piece of paper pretending it was published by someone else...
Never again.
I just got mine from the ebay seller in California that I think also sold garmonbozia her copy.
Abebooks UK has one listed for around $10 + postage.
garmonbozia
25-03-2012, 06:57
lepalaisdetarot. The one with its name plastered across the images of that deck in your first post. The one shown as selling it.
Ah, I see. Silly me, I didn't even realize that was a store site. As I don't have a digital camera, I did an image search for the deck to use a reference in my post and that is one of the few sites I could find with pictures of it. Good to know to avoid them.
garmonbozia
25-03-2012, 07:08
I just got mine from the ebay seller in California that I think also sold garmonbozia her copy.
Yes, I bought mine from a Californian eBayer. They might have a large supply of decks as it seems once one auction ends, another deck is listed.
The original of this deck is the colour lithography version of Johannes Muller TdM, which was published after 1901. This 1990 reprint deck is, according to Mr Walter Haas, "in somewhat duller colours" than the original ("Schweizer Spielkarten 2").
Albert Nyfeler, a Swiss artist, depicted this original deck in his 1933 painting. (THE STAR and THE DEVIL can barely seen.)
http://www.maproom.co.uk/sally/tappen/nyfeler.jpg
And you can see all the 78 cards of a still earlier version here (http://a.trionfi.eu/WWPCM/decks04/d03334/d03334.htm).
The original of this deck is the colour lithography version of Johannes Muller TdM, which was published after 1901. This 1990 reprint deck is, according to Mr Walter Haas, "in somewhat duller colours" than the original ("Schweizer Spielkarten 2").
Albert Nyfeler, a Swiss artist, depicted this original deck in his 1933 painting. (THE STAR and THE DEVIL can barely seen.)
http://www.maproom.co.uk/sally/tappen/nyfeler.jpg
And you can see all the 78 cards of a still earlier version here (http://a.trionfi.eu/WWPCM/decks04/d03334/d03334.htm).
Kenji thanks for the extra information. Doesn't the original look gorgeous? The colours are yummy..
I'm really looking forward to getting this deck, it looks as if it will be an excellent reading deck since the characters look so engaging and the lines look clean.
My copy has arrived and I have to say that it's absolutely lovely but I'm wondering whether I can actually use it because the backs are so nasty that they're completely putting me off the deck. I expected some generic pattern as on most TdMs but goodness me, this is tripped out nightmareness.
I've attached a couple of images of the deck and the dreaded back.
Yves Le Marseillais
02-04-2012, 22:09
My copy has arrived and I have to say that it's absolutely lovely but I'm wondering whether I can actually use it because the backs are so nasty that they're completely putting me off the deck. I expected some generic pattern as on most TdMs but goodness me, this is tripped out nightmareness.
I've attached a couple of images of the deck and the dreaded back.
Ouch !!
One of the worst back I ever saw... but many are horrible.
I do prefer originals or real facsimiles anyway.
An option to copy an old historical deck's back and to glue it: More safe fr your eyes.
Best :))
Yves
It really is horrid. If they wanted a striped card back that would have been fine if they'd used the lovely muted colours that the card faces have. Deep green, blue and muted red or gold would have looked OK.. These backs actually seem to move and make me feel quite ill when I'm shuffling...
Ewwwwwwwww....
MoonGypsy
03-04-2012, 00:24
My copy has arrived and I have to say that it's absolutely lovely but I'm wondering whether I can actually use it because the backs are so nasty that they're completely putting me off the deck. I expected some generic pattern as on most TdMs but goodness me, this is tripped out nightmareness.
I've attached a couple of images of the deck and the dreaded back.
Oh no, Sulis! :eek: i remember having this deck, too! i couldn't use it, it made me so dizzy, i felt like i had vertigo! What WERE they thinking? They look like a mans bad tie!
garmonbozia
08-04-2012, 16:01
It really is horrid. If they wanted a striped card back that would have been fine if they'd used the lovely muted colours that the card faces have. Deep green, blue and muted red or gold would have looked OK.. These backs actually seem to move and make me feel quite ill when I'm shuffling...
Ewwwwwwwww....
The backs are horrible. I should have warned about that, but I was so pleased to get a nice TdM deck that I was completely unfamiliar with at such a great price, I overlooked the glaringly (and I do mean glare) obvious.
garmonbozia
18-04-2012, 12:14
If anyone is looking for this deck, I saw that it was for sale again on eBay.
I got this deck recently from the posting on eBay.
At first I, too, was horrified by the backs. Or, at the least, found them monotonous and off-putting.
But I'm finding that, as the cards move in front of my vision while I'm shuffling or fanning them, the design creates an almost hypnotic state. (The colors reminds me of the pinwheel I saw in my inner vision when going under from anesthesia when I got my tonsils out as a child.)
And I like that feeling. For me, this results in the same state as doing deep breathing at the beginning of meditation.
YMMV.
Barleywine
20-04-2012, 06:01
By the colouring, I'd say that's basically the Tarot Classic. Close enough to do, I'd say.
http://www.aeclectic.net/tarot/cards/tarot-classic/
Beware of that store though. Their postage is TERRIFYING and when they sell you something that turns out to have been TOTALLY mislisted (and cost a lot) they will only give a SMALL credit against another order (why would I DO that ??? NEVER AGAIN !) and that only after 3 weeks of emails.
If you can bear it in German, I think this is it (remember Muller has been taken over...):
http://www.amazon.de/Tarotkarten-Marseille-Handbuch-Spiegel-Schicksals/dp/3908646103/ref=sr_1_44?ie=UTF8&qid=1332611432&sr=8-44
I can't find the same in French. Yet. I do actually HAVE it - what did you want to know ?
OOH it has an ISBN though:3-905-021-29-3 Which does come up in a few places.
The 2 coins reads Fabrique de Cartes a Schaffhouse. Which of course is NOT Muller's city. Just like the Tarot Classic, again. And there is the JR on the 4 coins. But the Classic has M for Muller, as I recall.
I see Boatwin on ebay has the Classic up for sale and listed as rare - at a whacking price...
This is interesting. I have the Tarot Classic here on my desk as I read this. The line drawing is, stroke-for-stroke, identical to the one shown here, but the coloring is quite different. The 2 of Coins has the Fabrique de Cartes A Schaffhouse wording but all of the titled cards are in English instead of French. The 4 of Coins has an ornate "M" in the middle. The cards have a nice feel to them. The one here looks like a reissue with the colors redone. I can't say that they're an improvement.
garmonbozia
20-04-2012, 11:15
I have a Tarot Classic on its way to me from Alida. I'm looking forward to comparing the colors between the two decks. I never bought the Tarot Classic before because I am not a fan of non-French titles on TdM cards, and I could never find the French-titled version in stock anywhere. Of course, Alida had it in stock all along and I never noticed until recently.
I initially purchased this AGM deck to use as a game deck because it was inexpensive, but I've not yet gotten around to learning any tarot games. From the web images I have seen, I prefer the coloration on the Tarot Classic, but cards often look very different in person. I might yet become attached to this deck and stick to my modern tarocco decks for games.
flying black kat
06-08-2012, 14:35
I have this deck and I love it. I don't use it anymore. I can not stand the backs at all.
This deck's back made me so dizzy and sick I thought I was high. I agree with everybody about why they can not use it. This deck is one that I don't even have out. It is packed and stays packed.
Good Luck
Kathy
SweetIsTheTruth
06-08-2012, 14:46
the backs are so nasty......this is tripped out nightmareness.
I've attached a couple of images of the deck and the dreaded back.
I can't tell if I just had an epileptic seizure or a flashback. I love the fronts though and LURV LURV LURV that Devil!
Yves Le Marseillais
06-08-2012, 23:26
Hello all,
Here is some comparaison bettwen a real Muller deck and his imitation.
As you see colors are more vivids.
And back is less.... strange, funny (anglo saxons euphemisms) or affreux (en français dans le texte).
I bought this original old deck in very good condition on EBay for...... 160 €uros.
A complete deck of course.
Just a question of pleasure and patience or studborness.
I can provide you a scan of his back if you want to stick it on your hypnotic back for curing your eyes ha ha !!
Salutations from France
Yves LM
Thoughtful
29-08-2012, 04:44
I've just looked at the scan and the backs are identical to the backs on my french 1JJ Swiss deck.
garmonbozia
31-08-2012, 11:46
I've just looked at the scan and the backs are identical to the backs on my french 1JJ Swiss deck.
The card back on the left is?
Thoughtful
03-09-2012, 05:43
hi garmonbozia, the backs of my 1JJ are identical to the right hand one, brown, black, green.
MikeTheAltarboy
13-09-2012, 21:27
My first deck was the Tarot Classic and I still love it. Compared to other TdM patterns - I like the fact that the swords and battons have their own character!
I might have to order this deck - I notice that they've added indexes to the pips. I like to ... (gasp!) ... get people to *play Tarock!* with me with the Tarot Classic - indexed cards might make them a little more at ease!
You can get the Tarot Classic labeled in either french or english; the french is just not usually stocked in stores in the US. I like this one's font better.