Debauch?

[theman_ca]

i have had the Thoth deck for about 6 months now, When i was first inroduced to Thoth about a year ago, it was the Debauch card that intrigueed my reader the most, it had never appeared for her before.

So i got the deck and have practised useing it a fare amout. but usually when i cut the deck or shuffle throughly and a card falls out, its the debauch card. Im never truly sure what it means thought. to me its almost like a rottening or poisoning, So heres my question.

What does Debauch mean to you.

[firemaiden]

Debauch is a great word. I first think of it meaning "not working" because débaucher in french slang means to get off work, as in <<chérie, je débauche à 19h>> ;) But then I think of a lot of lying around doing nothing, laziness, drinking, and generally hedonistic behaviour without regard for the passage of time, or the need to get up and do something -- like work.

I also think of concupiscence, lubricity. The Elves deck by lo scarabeo which is a Thoth clone has a wonderful illustration for this card -- an ugly troll hiding in the woods, and looking upon a passing elf as though he would like to have his way with him....

The rottenness and decay Crowley writes of can mean many things, but there is an aspect of "rotting" which allows for fullness of pleasure - as in Camembert cheese, and for some, like the poet Baudelaire, maturing woman :D :D :D

This must have been one of Crowley's favorite cards, from all I've been told about him...

[isthmus nekoi]

and there is the idea that civilization, like fruit, tastes it best right before it is about to go bad.... Decadance and Debauch must be twins.

[AmounrA]

To much of a good thing is bad for you. :-)

[celeste]

To me it means any kind of addictive behavior that is used to suppress or deny painful feelings or emotions or just reality itself.

[Haniel]

I am very much "attracted" to the over-all "look" and "style" of the 7 of Cups but I do not particularly enjoy seeing it appear while reading a spread concerning myself, either!


Interview

The ladies men admire, I've heard,
Would shudder at a wicked word.
Their candle gives a single light;
They'd rather stay at home at night.
They do not keep awake till three,
Nor read erotic poetry.
They never sanction the impure,
Nor recognize an overture.
They shrink from powders and from paints.
So far, I have had no complaints.

--Dorothy Parker

[Kosmos]

I ventured to the second page and I had to comment on this card as I've seen it so often myself.
To me it is a warning card. It warns of the danger that arises when luxury is taken for granted. "Too much of a good thing" is a pretty good description. It could be that you are so comfortable with current conditions that you forget to maintain them (hence the rotting that seems to be occurring).
Notice that its followed by 'indolence' or the feeling that one has bitten off more than they could chew, or accepted responsibility for more than they can handle/maintain.

[Centaur]

I can remember after I finished my exams and handed in my thesis (hell, even during it). I was living life to the extreme in every regard. There was rarely a night when I did not go out, and I would usually come home at 7 or 8am in the morning. This happened for a period of around one month. One month of total debauchery. LOL.

The amusing thing is that at that time, I used to pull this card regularly. Ofcourse, my period of 'debauchery' led to a rather 'burned-out' aftermath, by which I had to take a month or so to recover.

C

[Phoenyx*]

According to dictionary.com:

Debauchery: Extreme indulgence in sensual pleasures; dissipation; orgies; Corruption of fidelity; seduction from virtue, duty, or allegiance; Excessive indulgence of the appetites; especially, excessive indulgence of lust; intemperance; sensuality; habitual lewdness; a wild gathering involving excessive drinking and promiscuity.

Whenever I think of a succubi or an inccubi, I usually think of debauchery.

[BlueLotus]

I encountered this term when I pulled a card from Rohrig Tarot, 7 of cups a while ago and there it is .
I didn't even know that this term existed in English language at all ( I had to look it up in the dictionary) ^ excuse my ignorance ^...
Anyway, the card http://www.gambler.ru/sukhty/decks03/d01313/d01313h7.jpg
depicts a purple majestic flower growing out of some arid land and seven small cups behind it , two of which are lying on their sides.
The accompanying book says this card is : Illusion, deceiving oneself about one's own abilities, misrepresenting falsehoods as truths, frustration..
I can see how this cards comes in a reading when one has everthing but is not happy, or unable to enjoy that pleasure because of some inner conflict or other expectations. Although here it may also mean the inflated ego, or arrogance.

[Centaur]

Thought I would post some more impressions on this card...

I'm letting my mind wander here.

It is almost as though we are glimpsing some piece of jungle swamp-land. Perhaps it was once a thriving area for wildlife and shrubbery, etc. Now it is barren, and rotten. The reeds (are they reeds?) connecting the cups seem to be filling them with poison which is dripping into the swamp... sustaining it perhaps?

Also, if you look closely at the reeds, a shape begins to form. If you look at the top half of the card, and at the five-joined cups, the reeds which join them form the image of what might be a bull's head? I guess the association could then be drawn between debauch and the earth sign Taurus. Perhaps this is a warning of the dangers of too much earthly pleasures... drugs, and sex perhaps?

Hmnnnn...

C

[crystal cove]

Originally posted by Centaur
I guess the association could then be drawn between debauch and the earth sign Taurus. Perhaps this is a warning of the dangers of too much earthly pleasures... drugs, and sex perhaps?

Hmnnnn...

C

So THAT'S my problem! ;)

[Dean]

Seven of cups seven chalices being filled with poisonous neetar, pleasures in corruption and weakness - Sex drugs and alcohol abuse.

[prudence]

...is very close to my heart.


Really, I love this word.

Debauchery.

It sounds like a class offered in a New England prep school.Such a lovely formal and crisp word for something so...so....informal and... downright Bachanalian.

I cannot separate the British-ness of the word. But this makes it all the more enjoyable as a notion, or a state one can reach with the right combination of drugs and alcohol. Debauch. British people getting down and dirty. Sloppily dignified. Sort of my impression of AC in a nutshell. (I mean no offence to any of our British At'ers, this is all said w/ the utmost of respect)



(btw my mother is British, as well as half of my family :) )

[spiral]

Seven of cups seven chalices being filled with poisonous neetar, pleasures in corruption and weakness - Sex drugs and alcohol abuse.
Mmm... an occasional poison is a marvellous thing!

It's funny that this card provokes a similar response from others, because really it's quite disgusting to look at.

I know I'm not _supposed_ to like it, but... that's why it's so appealing.

[Dean]

Hi to you Astrid no offence taken and Spiral,
yeh i love the look of this card believe it or not. I always think that someone threw~up over this card to make it look like it does, i would say that this was one of Crowley's Favorite cards in the Deck. Its one of mine for sure.

[Aeon418]

It's funny that this card provokes a similar response from others, because really it's quite disgusting to look at.
I think that's the whole point really. But the hangover / clean up on the morning after is something else altogether. But you never think like that when your having too much of a good time, do you ? ;)

"external splendour and internal corruption"

This card is almost the "evil and averse" image of the Six; it is a wholesome reminder of the fatal ease with which a Sacrament my be profaned and prostituted.
Lose direct touch with Kether, the Highest; diverge never so little from the delicate balance of the Middle Pillar; at once the holiest mysteries of Nature become the obscene and shameful secrets of a guilty conscience.

The Book of Thoth p.199-200.

[Little Baron]

Just my views, since this card came up today and I wanted to try and understand it a little better.

I do not like this card. It is a gloopy mess. The water has gone off. It is stagnant. It reminds me of vomit. Or something that has gone mouldy.
As a feeling, it makes me think of a hangover after too much lager. It reminds me of wanting to be sick, a thumping headache and a need to re-hydrate myself.
I think you could see this card as a point where someone has over-dosed themselves in pleasure. These pleasures have done them no favours in their excess and now they are paying the price. As an example, for someone that has drunk a lot, the card might signify emotional embarrassment. When looking in the mirror, it might reflect an ugliness that they are not fond of, looking back at them. They may have been searching for something [love, happiness, excitement] in the wrong places [a bottle, drugs , casual sex] - delusions and illusions.

This card reminds me of how I have been at times, under the influence of alcohol. The times when I have had more than ‘one too many’ and have drunkenly stumbled about, making a fool of myself in the search for a few more late drinks. This card is like the ‘naked truth’. You laugh and chatter under the influence of alcohol and you think that you are appearing wonderfully to the other person. But what the other person sees [if they are sober], is a mess. The feelings that you get from the alcohol are just a temporary illusion. The reality is that you have gone too far. The gloopy water in the card has passed, aged and is showing you up. And the next day, amongst that sweaty, draining, murky feeling this image presents, you feel dreadful about the night before.
This is how I have felt on occasions. I don’t think it is fitting to be overly-drunk at my age. And I don’t like to be seen that way. Or remembered in that way. And this card is how it makes me feel. It suggests a sadness and desperation. This is not a card I would like to receive on a regular basis. I think that it would very likely make me change my ways.

I am looking at alcohol as an example, but I imagine the card could suggest the sluggish way that any over-indulgence makes someone feel - tired and drained from over-eating, having too much sex, unfulfilled by too many one night stands, nasty come-downs from too many drugs. I can see all of these things in this image and how it slows down the next day and your life. It is like walking through treacle.

LB

[.traveller.]

When I look at this card, I see a pond that has been overrun with unchecked algae growth. Because of a change in the environment, the ecology of the pond becomes unbalanced, resulting in the proliferation of green algae. As the green algae slowly chokes out all other life, the poisonous red algae begins to evolve and leading to the eventual death of the pond.
In a practical sense, I see this card indicating the initial stimulus for the behavior, the behavior itself, the environment which perpetuates the behavior, the repercussions, and the inevitable end.

[ravenest]

I used to call it "The Grotty Loungeroom Card"
Its like a loungeroom I had in a house I lived in, old worn out furniture, no light, stuffy, remains of old drunk/drug parties hanging around, stale alchohol and ashtray 'incense' ... god, I've gotta get out of here and get some fresh air and sunshine. Partying is good, but too much partying is ... erk!

In readings I interpret it two ways depending on aspects: Too much fun, slow down, straighten up, purge. Too staid, too self restricted, cut loose, enjoy youself, do something ... well, debauched!

[brenmck]

In my very first impression of this card I thought of "jungle rot," the kind of spiritual and moral decay that was the moral of Apocalypse Now, or Conrad's Heart of Darkness, where, in the movie adaptation, very distinguished military officers descended wholly into their Shadows, and the Shadow of such a man descends from discipline, honor, and purpose into simple bloodlust, only slightly removed from primal, animal existence. This would seem to be an extreme conclusion, and I wonder if the card itself really takes it quite this far, but it's not that difficult to imagine one slipping quietly into this quicksand without a conscious watching of one's self. It would seem that these officers and men, their personnae so identified with outside authority, journeyed entirely out of any sphere of that control, and had forgotten how to look internally for any moral compass, or, if they did, found nothing there. That heart of darkness probably lurks in all of us, as there is a strange fascination with life on that scale, or why would we pay to read about it, or see it played out on a screen?

brenmck

[Frank Hall]

It does seem to point to jungle rot and puke and animalistic shadows of who we are and bedeviled temperance. It reminds me of Lord of the Flies and of Faust under the power of Mephistopheles. It says to us, "Look at the residual waste we leave behind. Outer nature needs cleaning up --So do we. But don't throw out all delight, pleasure, joy. Only the muck of immoderation." So, back to my red wine.

[Little Baron]

The card came into my mind last night when I was in a club. There was a girl there that I don't get on with. I had always been nice to her in the past but became tired of her poncing cigarettes and keep grabbing my drink to take a sip. Because I refused her once and said 'no', we have never got on since.

When I saw her last night someone brought her to the bar to get some water because she had been sitting on the dancefloor. I didn't recognise her at first because she had put a lot of weight on in her face, was quite spotty and had no make-up on. She tried to take some of my drink, and when I grabbed the glass back she poured as much of it into her mouth as possible. Looking at her, I thought of the card. I thought that this was when indulgence became ugly, because she truely looked like she had let herself go through drink and the like, parties and lifestyle. I know it sounds awful, but looking at her repulsed me in the same way as looking at the card. There was no balance within her. She appeared as quite a lifeless image, like the card.

Was interesting to connect it with her. Kind of gave it an extra layer and a look from a different angle.

LB