View Full Version : What edition do I have?
AG MUller and Co, Switzerland
Blue two-piece box.
Tartan backs.
No copyright on cards.
No copyright notice on box or LWB.
(It actually belongs to someone else, and she wants to know if it is just a regular deck or one of the sought-after editions.)
Hi nisaba.
It's generally called "Rider Blue Box" and on the market around 1971.
Not so highly sought after as pre-WWII RWS, but many RWS fans love the Blue Box, or prefer it to the USG Yellow box. Let's say I'm ready to pay 50 bucks for a good Blue Box. But I won't pay 100 or more.
Yes, it's the Blue Box version - often to be found on Ebay UK.
In my opinion it's also called 'The gorgeous version' or 'the best RWS' :) })
KariRoad
18-04-2012, 17:16
So far as collecting goes, the rare "Blue Box" editions are often a bit grimy.
Really though, that is a badge of honour. Well loved, well used.
The "Blue Boxes" are often rather battered ~ but within may be gems.
Like new is nice, but the hefty card stock and vibrant colours are ideal.
They do well on ebay. I was very lucky to get one for £8 in 2005. (it was mislisted. LUCKY ME :D)
<grin> She was going to sell it for $18. After I pointed her at this thread, she priced it at $50 and had a buyer almost immediately.
Quite ! Way to go her :)
Mine had managed to get itself listed under Jewellery and Pendants.... The JOY ! I was the only bidder !
I am trying to figure out what printing I have -
yellow box
no copyrite symbol ion box or on cards
Printed in Switzerland by Muller and Cie
address on front of LWB:
468 Park Ave South
Inside cover of LWB:
numbers - 20, 19, 18, 17, 16, 15, 14, 13, 12, 11
I am assuming the above numbers will tell me what printing I have?
Another deck that a friend has - everything is the same as above, only the numbers in the LWB are:
10, 9, 8
Can I tell which deck is older? Are either of these decks the original 1971 printing? How exactly can I tell, so that I know with future purchases?
As far as I know your friend's deck is older (I believe the numbers are print runs - though I may be wrong here...)
No copyright does suggest 1971 or so printing.
rwcarter
29-04-2012, 04:49
Inside cover of LWB:
numbers - 20, 19, 18, 17, 16, 15, 14, 13, 12, 11
I am assuming the above numbers will tell me what printing I have?
Another deck that a friend has - everything is the same as above, only the numbers in the LWB are:
10, 9, 8
Can I tell which deck is older? Are either of these decks the original 1971 printing? How exactly can I tell, so that I know with future purchases?
You have the 11th printing of the LWB and your friend has the 8th printing. (The lowest number listed is the printing number.) As print run info isn't available for the cards themselves, I think the LWB printing info is the best source of info.
Define "original 1971 printing". I have a Weiser edition with no printing info in the LWB, which was printed by USG. I believe that is the first printing of the yellow-box deck. The lowest LWB printing number I have for a USG edition is 7, so I don't know if there is actually a USG edition with a LWB with printing number 1.
Rodney
You have the 11th printing of the LWB and your friend has the 8th printing. (The lowest number listed is the printing number.) As print run info isn't available for the cards themselves, I think the LWB printing info is the best source of info.
Define "original 1971 printing". I have a Weiser edition with no printing info in the LWB, which was printed by USG. I believe that is the first printing of the yellow-box deck. The lowest LWB printing number I have for a USG edition is 7, so I don't know if there is actually a USG edition with a LWB with printing number 1.
Rodney
thanks Rodney and Gregory -
by original 1971 printing, I mean the first printing, I was trying to figure out when between 1971 and 1975 my no-copyrite deck was printed. I guess there is really no way of telling exactly - and that's fine. I am just so thrilled with this deck - at first I was worried about using it, thinking I should put it away - but I now see they are for sale all over the place. I am not going to buy any more unless I can get them for the same low price I paid for mine...it is a beautiful version of the RW, though --- I am more interested now in finding even earlier versions...planning on doing LOTS of yard sales and flea markets this summer...I know these decks are out there somewhere!!! I'll find them if it kills me!!!
has anyone ever seen this one before, or know anything about it?
rwcarter
24-05-2012, 11:58
No but now I want it :D
UGH. Me too.
WHERE did you find that Bhavana?
You don't think it has just spent FAR too much time in strong sunlight, maybe ???
It is peculiarly vile - and isn't on Holly's page... It's a CULT thing. }) (If it wasn't then, it is now :D) I have consulted truelighth...
It's a sun-faded photo of a Merrimack deck. http://home.comcast.net/~vilex/images/LargeImages/MerrimackFool.JPG
No, Debra. It's not a Merrimack. The back pattern and the words on the bottom are different.
By expanding the photo I can read "Vancouver BC Canada" on the extra card. Obviously an unknown kind of RWS.
I saw that the backs are different but the fronts look the same to me. Huh.
A good mystery!
Rodney, it was on Etsy.
I have a tinge of regret not buying it myself...someday, as is typical of me, i will wake up and suddenly decide that I must collect obscure, unknown Rider Waite decks, and from that day forward this missed opportunity will be a thorn in my side till the day I die....How old are you, Gregory? Maybe you could leave it to me in your will, pass the torch, so to speak, ha ha...
but seriously, I am just glad one of my fellow AT members will be the owner. Nice to keep things "in the family"
Debra, I think this is just a deck someone invented - maybe they scanned the fronts of the Merrimack and added a different back.
You don't think it has just spent FAR too much time in strong sunlight, maybe ???
It is peculiarly vile - and isn't on Holly's page... It's a CULT thing. }) (If it wasn't then, it is now :D) I have consulted truelighth...
no, I think it is just the way it was scanned. Possibly it's scanned from the deck Debra mentions, and this person who created it wanted it that color, or only had the technical capability to make it that color.
Debra, I think this is just a deck someone invented - maybe they scanned the fronts of the Merrimack and added a different back.
truelighth - who already has first dibs when I hate it - had actually HEARD of the organisation involved. And I do have a mailing address for them - I may write ! See if it still exists.
Out of interesting series of events (Bhavana recommended a deck to me that I ended up buying) I came to become the owner of another RWS deck. Out of a total of three decks now, this may either be the oldest or the older of them.
The box does not have any ISBN number. The copyright states 1971, printed in Switzerland, etc. The cards do not have any US Games copyright on them. If more images are necessary, I will get them up as soon as possible.
I'm quite curious to know what printing edition the deck could be. I'll just be happy if it's pre-1975 :P
LRichard
30-05-2012, 13:46
......I'm quite curious to know what printing edition the deck could be. I'll just be happy if it's pre-1975 :PAcording to Mary Greer:
......The copyright does not appear on the cards until around 1975. Matte finish (not plasticized).......
LRichard to the rescue!
Herpderp. Hmm... So the absence of copyright marking on the cards automatically throw it into the pre-75 age. W00tie-w00tw00t :D
This may be a dumb question (but it will be asked anyway): How else would you tell what printing edition the deck is? Is it possible to tell what specific edition the deck is without the isbn?
rwcarter
30-05-2012, 15:23
Yineth, your links no longer work. The only way I've been able to date my yellow box decks is by the printing info in the LWB. As far as I can tell, copyrights were introduced with either the 16th or 17th printing of the LWB. I have a 17th printing LWB with copyrights on the cards and a 15th printing LWB with no copyrights on the cards.
Yineth, your links no longer work.
Bollocks! >__<
http://s1187.photobucket.com/albums/z399/tealia89/?action=view¤t=2012-05-29_19-20-11_336.jpg
http://s1187.photobucket.com/albums/z399/tealia89/?action=view¤t=2012-05-29_19-19-59_36.jpg
http://s1187.photobucket.com/albums/z399/tealia89/?action=view¤t=2012-05-29_19-18-20_694.jpg
Hope these links work. I'll remove the old ones.
The only way I've been able to date my yellow box decks is by the printing info in the LWB. As far as I can tell, copyrights were introduced with either the 16th or 17th printing of the LWB. I have a 17th printing LWB with copyrights on the cards and a 15th printing LWB with no copyrights on the cards.
Hmm. I see I see. I'll definitely keep this in mind. Thankies RWC :3
LRichard
30-05-2012, 17:58
Hmmm.... Very interesting! There is no list of printing numbers on the inside front cover. You may have a very early printing, 1971 or thereabouts, but I'll yield to rwcarter's expertise about this.
Tarot napkins? US Games printed tarot napkins?
Jeez now I'm craving a tarot napkin.
rwcarter
31-05-2012, 01:15
Does the top of your box say US Games or Samuel Weiser? The Weiser deck has a US Games LWB. The only LWBs I've seen without copyrights have been with Weiser decks, which I believe to be the first printing of the yellow box.
You should check out RWS Deck Post-1970 Publishing History.
Does the top of your box say US Games or Samuel Weiser? The Weiser deck has a US Games LWB. The only LWBs I've seen without copyrights have been with Weiser decks, which I believe to be the first printing of the yellow box.
You should check out RWS Deck Post-1970 Publishing History.
http://s1187.photobucket.com/albums/z399/tealia89/?action=view¤t=2012-05-29_19-20-51_372.jpg - Top
http://s1187.photobucket.com/albums/z399/tealia89/?action=view¤t=2012-05-29_19-20-36_508-1.jpg - Bottom
And I'll check the thread you linked.
• 468 Park Avenue South, New York, N.Y. 10016 (roughly 1970-1980) The copyright does not appear on the cards until around 1975. Matte finish (not plasticized).
Yours seems to fit in there - pre 1975.
rwcarter
31-05-2012, 09:29
Yineth,
I've not seen a US Games box with the LWB that doesn't have a printing number! Tell me that wasn't the auction I pointed you to!
Did Weiser and USG put out the first printing of the yellow box at the same time? Until now I thought that maybe USG contracted with Weiser to put out the first printing (or possibly even the first few printings as the first printing I have that has a printing number in the LWB is the 5th printing), but then that contract ended at some point and USG began putting out the deck in their boxes. But your deck blows that theory out of the water....
Damn; I can't check mine till mid July, but I THINK....
Yineth,
I've not seen a US Games box with the LWB that doesn't have a printing number! Tell me that wasn't the auction I pointed you to!
Did Weiser and USG put out the first printing of the yellow box at the same time? Until now I thought that maybe USG contracted with Weiser to put out the first printing (or possibly even the first few printings as the first printing I have that has a printing number in the LWB is the 5th printing), but then that contract ended at some point and USG began putting out the deck in their boxes. But your deck blows that theory out of the water....
Unfortunately the deck I have is not from the auction you suggested to me. I was close to getting that deck, but the finance fairy said no.
The deck I have is from a random seller that Bhavana directed me to on ebay. ( The seller got an earful from me because he called them gypsy fortune telling cards)
One other theory is the deck's lwb is not the original lwb for the deck?
what do you all think about the last page in yineth's LWB? I have an 11th printing pre 1975 with a much longer more extensive list of then-current USG decks than what her LWB shows.
My hypothesis is that she has a very VERY early printing.
Seems like all we can say for sure is that it is a pre-75 deck - drat!! I was hoping someone would know more about the lack of numbers indicating printings in the LWB.
rwcarter
01-06-2012, 01:59
Unfortunately the deck I have is not from the auction you suggested to me. I was close to getting that deck, but the finance fairy said no.
The deck I have is from a random seller that Bhavana directed me to on ebay. ( The seller got an earful from me because he called them gypsy fortune telling cards)
One other theory is the deck's lwb is not the original lwb for the deck?
Whew! I don't have to kick myself in the a-- then.... :D
what do you all think about the last page in yineth's LWB? I have an 11th printing pre 1975 with a much longer more extensive list of then-current USG decks than what her LWB shows.
My hypothesis is that she has a very VERY early printing.
Seems like all we can say for sure is that it is a pre-75 deck - drat!! I was hoping someone would know more about the lack of numbers indicating printings in the LWB.
I didn't notice the last page in her LWB originally. My Weiser boxed decks have LWBs that say Weiser on the front cover but have a US Games copyright on the inside cover. The last page is blank. My LWBs have 44 numbered pages. Yineth, how many numbered pages does your LWB have?
My 7th printing LWB has 30 items on the back cover (and doesn't include Tarot Napkins) vs the 10 that show on Yineth's back cover. So I'm going back to my new theory that USG and Weiser released the first printing of the deck at the same time.
@RW: My LWB has 44 numbered pages also.
I compared our mystery deck (Deck 1) to the other yellow box RWS I have (Deck 2) and noticed the following:
-The Magician is orange-faced and orange skinned on the deck box(Deck 1)
-The white robe's front is plain faced above the blue belt (deck 1), while the other M's rob has some gray colored creasing showing on the front (deck 2).
-The front coloring of the Magician on Deck 1 is more faded looking in color, the box where "The Magician" shows is white. Deck 2's name box has a gray color filled in. Deck 2 is also a much later printing (44th edition or something).
- There is 2 blank white cards with Deck 1. Deck 2 has one blank and a card that lists off more products.
Deck 1's coloring on the cards show a lot of cross-hatching style that are lighter in shades compared to Deck 2.
These probably don't help much other than confirming that Deck 1 is probably pre-1975 still xD
@RW: My LWB has 44 numbered pages also.
I compared our mystery deck (Deck 1) to the other yellow box RWS I have (Deck 2) and noticed the following:
-The Magician is orange-faced and orange skinned on the deck box(Deck 1)
-The white robe's front is plain faced above the blue belt (deck 1), while the other M's rob has some gray colored creasing showing on the front (deck 2).
-The front coloring of the Magician on Deck 1 is more faded looking in color, the box where "The Magician" shows is white. Deck 2's name box has a gray color filled in. Deck 2 is also a much later printing (44th edition or something).
- There is 2 blank white cards with Deck 1. Deck 2 has one blank and a card that lists off more products.
Deck 1's coloring on the cards show a lot of cross-hatching style that are lighter in shades compared to Deck 2.
These probably don't help much other than confirming that Deck 1 is probably pre-1975 still xD
Deck 1 is definitely pre 1975, if you go by when copyrites were added. that may be the only thing you can be sure of. Did you post a photo of the last page in the LWB?
It shows very few decks compared to my 11th printing - possibly the decks on mine were not released or in existance yet, possibly adding to the thought that yours is a very early edition?
Here is a pic of the last page in my 11th printing:
rwcarter
01-06-2012, 05:11
Bhvana, the last page of my 7th printing LWB looks like yours. I quickly counted 30 items, but it may have only been 29. (I'm too lazy right now to go and check. :grin:)
Deck 1 is definitely pre 1975, if you go by when copyrites were added. that may be the only thing you can be sure of. Did you post a photo of the last page in the LWB?
It shows very few decks compared to my 11th printing - possibly the decks on mine were not released or in existance yet, possibly adding to the thought that yours is a very early edition?
Here is a pic of the last page in my 11th printing:
http://s1187.photobucket.com/albums/z399/tealia89/?action=view¤t=2012-05-29_19-19-59_36.jpg - Last page of the mystery deck's LWB
It doesn't really list off any particular decks, but Tarot-related products. Tarot napkins? Do they mean Tarot cloths instead? .__.
Edit: I Google'd 'Tarot Napkins' and the first thing that showed up was this thread. Lol!
Edit 2: The LWB does mention 1JJ Swiss and the instructional book.
Well, I’m glad I went for this etsy deck. No-one will be getting it off me.
It is a very strange deck. It isn’t a reprint of any I have seen before (unless I am totally brain dead). And fascinatingly – I think I may recognise the name of the store which originally sold it – and which has some connection with the tarot course offered on an extra card – The Taro Text, $26 from the Third Eye Mail Order Co, based in Langley, BC. The store was Yoga Vedanta, in Vancouver. This has the same address as that listed on the accompanying brief instruction sheet for the International Taro Association….
And many years ago when I was in Vancouver, I bought a few decks- Grand Tarot Belline and Arista) from a store listed in my database (those were the days,,, I didn’t record the details back then !) as “weird store in Vancouver.” Perhaps someone in BC can help here.
The cards seem to be basically black and white photocopies, with pink sort of added as background to the images but not the borders. The added text on the cards is very small, and oddly capitalised. I haven’t a University Books one here, but the words don’t feel right. On some cards the pink has developed a weird criss-cross patterning – presumably a print error; this happens particularly where the pink is over grey areas. I have photographed two for your edification and hope it shows up on at least one of them.
I have incidentally also discovered – while comparing cards – that some of the cards on my pocket USG Waite are foreshortened – particularly the 3 of Pents, Sun and Wheel – is this a Known Thing that I’ve missed for all these years ? It’s almost like their Albano thing.
My gut feeling is that the copies were made from a book with black and white illustrations, and I can’t imagine how the pink was added. Some of the detail is also a bit rough. It’s a bit like a de Laurence, in a way.
ETA I take that back. No b/w book illustrations I can think of are anything but b/w, and this has definite grey areas... Stranger and stranger.
DATE - it predates Canadian postal codes; the address is Vancouver 2... Now when was THAT.... ah yes - 1971-75. So it is quite old :)
The (brief) instructions start out with something startling to ME anyway :
It is first necessary to understand the power of the number 9.
I like this deck. :D
ETA a Vancouver bookstore shows up by that name - but at a different address.
Is TCO around ?
Where's Roppo? Have you asked Roppo?
I'm summoned and at your service, master (oh, mistress?)
Judging from the photos the RWS seems a sort of photocopy of University Books RWS or Merrimack RWS, perhaps the latter. They cut the upper part of the card slightly to make a space for key words (look at the XII of the Hanged Man) and redraw the thick border lines. And the PCS monogram on the 8 of the Swords is just lost in the dark area, which is the characteristics of Univ.Books and Merrimack (you can recognize the monogram on the UB by using a magnifier, but not on the Merri).
Gregory, are there the whilte rock on the 2 of Swords?
2 swords attached for your edification. (mistress, please... :D We are a grandmother... :D)
I certainly cannot make out the signature on the 8 swords, not with a magnifying glass or anything else ! But the Hanged Man seems to be the only one where the image seems to have been cut down... and as I said - they seem rather BETTER proportioned - all the circles are CIRCULAR ! than my pocket USG which is the only one I have with me, and where the circles are slightly squashed, which I never ever noticed before !
Any other cards I can photograph for you (in the morning; I am logging off soon !)
hmmm...looks more interesting than it did in the Etsy listing. Glad to hear you are somewhat pleased with it!
Thank you very much Gregory! There's the white rock in the 2 of Swords that is a proof your unknown RWS is a member of the Univ-Books-RWS family. I believe you have a naming right to this deck. Name the deck as you please and I'll follow it.
* To friends who have no idea what I'm talking about : take a look at 2of Swords of the standard RWS and compare it with the 2 of Swords of Univ.RWS. The left rock is different, from unknown reason. Okay, I'll make an illustration for this.
here goes:
http://grimoire.blog.ocn.ne.jp/doll/files/whiterock.jpg
For friends who cannot see the above I'll attach the same below.
ladybird
06-08-2012, 12:40
Deck 1 is definitely pre 1975, if you go by when copyrites were added. that may be the only thing you can be sure of. Did you post a photo of the last page in the LWB?
It shows very few decks compared to my 11th printing - possibly the decks on mine were not released or in existance yet, possibly adding to the thought that yours is a very early edition?
Here is a pic of the last page in my 11th printing:
I started researching the products on the back page of my 8th printing (my LWB says 10 9 8) against your picture of the 11th to get a better idea of the years. I found a couple clues.
The first clue was on my LWB's back page: JB007 James Bond Tarot Game which I found uses the Tarot of the Witches deck. This set was most likely released when the movie Live and Let Die was released in 1973. So that most likely puts my 8th printing in 1973 maybe 1974.
The next clue was on your 11th printing LWB. The AQ78 Aquarian Tarot Deck. I found some information in a google search that shows that it was first released by Morgan Press in 1970 and then released by US Games in 1975. So it seems that your LWB is 1975.
ladybird
06-08-2012, 12:45
http://s1187.photobucket.com/albums/z399/tealia89/?action=view¤t=2012-05-29_19-19-59_36.jpg - Last page of the mystery deck's LWB
It doesn't really list off any particular decks, but Tarot-related products. Tarot napkins? Do they mean Tarot cloths instead? .__.
Edit: I Google'd 'Tarot Napkins' and the first thing that showed up was this thread. Lol!
Edit 2: The LWB does mention 1JJ Swiss and the instructional book.
So interesting! My 8th printing has Tarot Blocks and Tarot Posters but no napkins. My LWB product page has 30 items on it.
ETA: I tried googling items from your LWB's product page to see if I could find some sort of clue on date release of any of the products but didn't find anything. I'm sure you tried that too. :)
Thank you very much Gregory! There's the white rock in the 2 of Swords that is a proof your unknown RWS is a member of the Univ-Books-RWS family. I believe you have a naming right to this deck. Name the deck as you please and I'll follow it.
WELL - as the BOX says Thoth Hermes.... :D (BUT there is another by that name, an Egyptian style one...)
And it came from the Yoga Vedanta bookstore... And I do have some info on that...
Back on this later; I'll think it over - sorry I had failed to follow this lately - and yes about the rock :)