PDA

View Full Version : Different House Systems


M-Press
16-09-2003, 18:10
Hi!
I have been experimenting lately with differnt house systems...
My astrologet told me that the one that works, is the "Equal", and i feel it is so, for me....
(in this particular house system, my Moon is in the 4th house, and not the 5th, like other systems indicates, and i'm definitely very homey, have issues with mum, and did i say i have difficulties leaving my house in the morning?)
According to other systems, i have nothing in the 4th....

So, is it that differnt systems work for different people?
OR
if this one seems to work for me, so I should use this for others?

Sometimes the systems have big differences between them...
Astro.com use as default the Placidus, I think... It seems that they would know to choose the right system, no?

Any clues, anyone???

Thanks!

Minderwiz
16-09-2003, 19:40
House systems are one of the most argued pieces of Astrology. There is no 'right' answer to the choice of House System.

In principle they all try to divide the circle of the Zodiac into 12 equal pieces - however they differ very much on the basis for the division - the main two bases being time or space. The situation is further complicated by the spherical nature of the Earth, as the division is usually done relative to the place of the nativity.

In practice there are a number of house systems which predominate - Placidus is probably the main one, but Koch is also used a lot, Regiomontanus gets a following from Horary Astrologers and the Equal House system is used a lot by amateurs and occasional astrologers but rarely by professionals. Historical research suggests that the Ancient Greek Astrologers used whole sign houses. So if your Ascendant were, say in Leo (not matter where) Leo becomes your first House, Virgo your second, Libra the third, etc.

Given such a choice, what should you do? The only real course is to try out various house systems, you have tried Equal House, so try Placidus and/or Koch and see how you feel with them - give them a good try but if you don't like them and Equal Houses seem to work then go back. Some Astrologers will use different House Systems for different work - say Placidus or Koch for natal but Regiomontanus for horary.

I once did a comparison of Equal Houses, Placidus and Campanus and found that whilst there were differences, they tend to end up as differences of emphasis in some parts of the analysis - the systems all yielded a reasonably consistent overview of the individual.

It really comes down to which system you are comfortable with and which gives you the best 'success' rate.

M-Press
16-09-2003, 19:50
Thanks!
I guess that i wante to know if there was "one" answer, especially when doing composits...
I'll go and experiment a bit more...
I know that equal works for me, and i understand whay the others don't fall too off...
But, my moonis in Virgo, so I alike to see it all nice and tidy!!!!
;-)

dadsnook2000
17-09-2003, 13:21
M-Press, I've reviewed this thread for a few days but couldn't gather my thoughts on exactly what to say. Unless you are willing to get deep into the several sperical/spatial coordinate systems in terms of the math, it would seem that the best thing to do is just compare charts printed out in various house systems and analyze the few significant differences you find.
*** Actually, that may not be best. Consider first the zodiac and the equal house system. Both are defined as having 12 equal segments measured as 30 degrees. Now consider the standard aspects -- most are based on one or more 30 degree increments. One could look at these characteristics and decide that the equal house system is the most natural.
*** So, what is the rational of all these other house systems? We know that they are more or less distorted in terms of house size/coverage relative to locational latitude. What does this mean to us? We experience seasonal changes wherein the Sun is above the horizon longer than below it, and then it all flip flops. Now we have to ask, "Is change and distortion more natural than evenness and regularity.
*** Now that we have two right answers (or two wrong answers), do we have other choices? Yes! Don't use any house system. How could you not use any house system? You have two choices; just use the angles (they are the same in almost every house system) or abandon conventional charts and use the awesome mid-point system wherein signs and houses are not primary factors. And then there are other choices, for instance you could go vedic. Or just rely on Tarot.
*** Now that I have unfairly played with your head, lets get serious. The Porphory House system divides the ASC-MC arc and the MC-DSC arc equally. This leads to narrow houses on one side of the MC and wide houses on the other side -- all the narrow houses being equal in size and all of the wide housed being equal in size. This doesn't fit with equal house, zodiac or aspect relationships AND it doesn't make for a smooth distortion of the houses. Throw Porphory out. The Regiomontanus House system divides the equator equally and projects the house cusps onto the ecliptic -- a blend of equal and distortion systems. This may not be bad. The Campanus does the same thing except that it projects from 30 degree segments from the Prime Vertical. Perhaps we can say that if you want to do an experience or sensation oriented chart you should use Regiomontanus (based on the ASC & equator) and if you want a consciousness based chart you could use the Campanus (based on houses projected from the prime vertical and MC/IC axis. The Morinus House system uses a different method of equal-equator divisions and projections wherein the ASC is defined as being 90 degrees from the MC's longitude -- perhaps this is a balanced Self and Experience system, perhaps useful for a spiritaul chart reading. If there is a valid basis for any house system then there has to be a reason for using it and not another -- hence astrologers use that which "feels" good. In fact, they ought to know why they choose and use a house system and how to interpret the chart based on that house system. As far as I can see almost every astrologer makes no difference in interpretation based on the house system they use. This should give you something to think about. AS FOR ME, I just don't bother much with house systems anymore -- or signs for that matter. Good luck. Ask any questions -- I'll try to answer them. Dave.

dadsnook2000
17-09-2003, 13:25
Hi, I just couldn't resist that. Houses are miserable quandries. Forget about making a choice, use whatever you like and forget about the differences -- they just aren't worth it. The only logical thought I offered is that of throwing every house system away. I really don't use them anymore. I'm getting to the point where I can even ignore aspects. Pitiful. I'm either getting damm good or I'm going crazy. Dave.

M-Press
17-09-2003, 18:25
Oh, thank you! There is definitely a handful of info here, although it seems overwhelaming!
I think I agree that the interpretation an astrologer does according to whatever houses may be similar, and this is because things don't fall too far off, they are related. For example, according to the equal (as i mention above), my moon is in the 4th house, whereas in Placidus, it's on the 5th. BUT, i have anyway Pluto in the 5th (according to both), so i'm doomed anyway!!!!! this is why the results seem the same.
BUT, there si a big difference if someone's moon is in the 12th or in the 1st house! This difference tells a lot about the person...
The same when it comes to composites: Everytime I "check out" a guy, i try to find out our composite Saturn. And by now I knwo one thing: saturn composite in the 12th, is a NO-NO! also composite Sun in the 9th, does not seem to pick up at the end...
So, this is what I check, and why the house systems are important!!!!

are you an astrologer, by theway?
Curious me....

dadsnook2000
17-09-2003, 21:45
I started my astrological studies around 1972 using a small paperback Do Your Own Horoscope (or something like that) by Joseph Goodsavage. I was determined to prove to my wife that her daily sun-sign write up in the newspaper was bunk. Well, it looked pretty interesting. A co-worker saw me reading the book and asked me to do his chart -- he was new at the job and I had no knowledge of him. I did the chart and determined that he was ill, described his symptoms, and (using the tables in the book) told him the years when he had those problems. It was all right on. The only thing I never said was that he was going to be very, very ill four months later. He died. I was hooked.
*** I ran into an astrological book store owner who steered me to mid-points before I really got into regular charting. That approach was quite awesome. Then I studied with Jeff Mayo at the Faculty for Astrological Studies in London for a bit. Later several friends and I started a study group that met weekly for seven years -- part of that time we studied with Rober Pelletier (Planets in Houses, Planets in Aspect (Para Research). My most enlightening times came with the study of Sidereal techniques which led to my focus on predictive astrology. So yes, I guess it can be said that I'm an astrologer -- although a very unconventional one. Dave.

Minderwiz
17-09-2003, 23:21
Originally posted by dadsnook2000
Hi, IForget about making a choice, use whatever you like and forget about the differences -- they just aren't worth it. The only logical thought I offered is that of throwing every house system away. I really don't use them anymore. I'm getting to the point where I can even ignore aspects. Pitiful. I'm either getting damm good or I'm going crazy. Dave.

Dave may find this strange, or a sign that I'm also going crazy but I agree with at least half of this! On an individual planet in a house, yes it may seem to make a difference, but if you take the natal chart as a whole, the picture doesn't radically change if the Moon's in the twelfth or the first, especially if its close to the Ascendant. I have Saturn in the twelfth fairly close to may Ascendant and I treat it very much as first house. Anyway its planets that tend to be near cusps that will change houses if you alter the system, so there is probably only one or two at most affected by a system change. If you use elements, aspects, the MC, and the Ascendant in your analysis then different systems produce only marginal change.

Dave's thrown away houses more or less completely, except for the Angular ones - this isn't as revolutionary as it sounds - angular planets are the most important and the angles themselves are the most important points, perhaps the others can well be demoted and a gain made in clarity.

However, don't try to get rid of the houses if you are doing horary work - they are critical!

PS the half that I'm not quite ready to agree with is that (a) Dave is going crazy and (b) that aspects can be dispensed with - though I'm willing to be convinced on the latter.

Lee
18-09-2003, 00:48
Originally posted by Minderwiz
Dave's thrown away houses more or less completely, except for the Angular ones - this isn't as revolutionary as it sounds - angular planets are the most important and the angles themselves are the most important points, perhaps the others can well be demoted and a gain made in clarity.Along this line (and I may have mentioned this in another post), I obtained a book by Daniel Lorey called "The Wildman, The Earth and The Stars," in which he describes a system using only the angles and the aspects (no houses or signs). He identifies the four quadrants made by the angles as archetypes (the Warrior, the King, the Lover, and the Magician), and he places special emphasis on the "power zones" before each angle suggested by Guaquelin's research.

As a beginner in astrology I'm making a special effort to study the "mainstream" methods, but I must say Lorey's approach is powerfully appealing to me in its simplicity and straightforwardness. It's a real dilemma, whether to use methods which are popular (and I do think there is a benefit to going with the majority), or using methods that are more appealing to one personally. Fortunately I don't have to make that choice yet!

-- Lee

dadsnook2000
18-09-2003, 08:11
OK Minderwiz, I'll take you up on the question of "Aspects or Not." Provide me with the following information from the chart of a person you know well: List in counter-clockwise order the names of the chart's planets, including the ASC and MC. Do not indicate the sign, degree, house or aspect of any astrological body -- just the order that they are in relative to each other. I'll give you an astrological reading. Then you too will be able to say that aspects aren't necessary. Dave.

Minderwiz
18-09-2003, 08:33
Well, I am very much prepared to accept that you can do it - as I said I'm prepared to be 'convinced' in the sense of a demonstration - so in a very real sense this is not a challenge. But I think it would certainly be worth the exercise, simply to show your approach, which while unconventional (in your words) I think we can all genuinely learn from.

So starting at the Ascendant the list is:

Ascendant
Pluto
Uranus
Neptune
Venus
Mercury
Mars
Moon
Sun
MC
Jupiter
Saturn

I really look forward to your response, and I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't mind adding a post on your methodology/reasoning.

M-Press
18-09-2003, 08:45
OK..... It's getting hot here!!!
I'm inrugued!
Can I provide you with my chart's planets? Is that according to the "rules" here?
I can see a lot of learning happening there!!!!!
;-)

dadsnook2000
18-09-2003, 10:51
This post may get a little long so I may split up the ordered list of planets that Minderwiz supplied into two or more posts. I will address each planet/point (CAPITALIZED) in the order given and will show the preceding and following planets/points (no caps).
*** sat-ASC-pluto. Exhibits an intensity and presence, yet is also sensitive to how others react to them. Because their personality impacts other strongly, experience may either lead to a negative view of themselves or a feeling of control over others -- in any case there may be an imbalance that will likely be corrected by maturity.
*** asc-PLUTO-uranus. One's intensity and focus is built upon the ups and downs of life's experience and has gradually found innovative and individual forms of expression. There is a tendancy to find ever-larger canvases to paint upon, so to speak.
*** pluto-URANUS-neptune. The individualism noted earlier tends to coalesce around a spiritual or social-involvement theme, using that theme as a framework for expression. The question is, "can individuality be expressed directly or remotely?" Ones intensity and focus can be a turn-off in one-on-one situations.
*** uranus-NEPTUNE-venus. This can be a rebellious Neptune, of all things. A social role or recognition is needed from which one can socially interact successfully with others.
*** neptune-VENUS-mercury. This pesons value system tends to be somewhat idealistic. Does this bring them into conflicts based on expectations that are not realistic or does it lead them into an improved form of communication and sharing of ideas other than just their own?
*** venus-MERCURY-mars. Ideas and concepts are important! This leads to a development of eloquence in how one expresses and interacts. This ease of expression and prior-noted focus should enable them to communicate with fear of contradiction or territorial intrusion.
*** This is the first half of the individual planet/point components. We can already see how these particular planets and/or points interconnect to shape an individual's expression and personality. In the next post, I'll continue this review. Dave.

dadsnook2000
18-09-2003, 11:24
Continuing with the ordered listing of planets/points that Minderiz supplied for this review . . .
*** mercury-MARS-moon. This person is action-oriented in that what is thought or talked about is immediately responded to or done (if a task). The problem is that this action-energy force can be on-again off-again. If one dreams too much of what might be, then that concept never gets completed and truly appreciated. Isn't the old expression, "Don't count your chickens until they hatch" applicable here?
*** mars-MOON-sun. So, how is the Moon portrayed by this person. IMPULSIVE seems appropriate. This would also fit with the prior mentioned on-off Mars energy tendancies. Does ones life experience find the means of channeling and managing energy? If not, it is hard to judge how the failure to reach goals would impact and intense and optimistic communicator such as this person.
*** moon-SUN-mc. Ones sense of identity and well-being requires a consistent living pattern, a natural and supportive flow and daily schedule. Order, methods, rituals can act as a sort of meditation that enables one to reach goals and to articulate the plans and messages of the groups, companies and ideals that they work for.
*** sun-MC-jupiter. This is a strongly supported MC. Health and recognition act as multipliers of success when working with others. This can be a "helper" configuration wherein one has the natural means of enhancing the efforts of others.
*** mc-JUPITER-saturn. Ones social sense of what can/might be accomplished has to be constrained by the caution and limits of others. A strong business mind works best here for long projects, while one's optimism and energy is held for small groups and projects that can be finished quickly.
*** jupiter-SATURN-asc. This can be a pattern for a social moderator of some sort. Planning and careful progress seems to be a natural path to follow. It must be hard though to temper ones enthusiasm and vision. I'm not sure how this might play out as there are many ways to express this particular Saturn. It is possible that one is expected to play a historical or family role, or follow a tradition -- all chains that one would like to break.
*** SUMMARY: As in every chart, we see a very complex person here, one who is idealistic, intense, has charm and energy, knows what a vision is and how to work towards it. On the other hand there are the expectations of others to deal with as well as the tough learning and growing experiences that hopefully has led to achieving a balance personality and harmonious life style.
*** NOTE: I would expect that you could comment on some of this for the edification of M-Press who is apparently chomping at the bit with excitement. Its a shame he is linked up with us two but then, I expect a lot of good stuff will fall out of this fun stuff that we do. In the next post I'll explain the basis for these observations given that aspects, signs, houses are not used. Of course, not using those components brings some limitations in terms of what could be said about the chart. For instance a planet in one house expresses itself in various areas of the chart using derivitive houses -- "your aunt has a mean tounge but she treats kids really nice even though she was a terror in grad school" -- those kinds of statements require houses and rulerships to support them as well as aspects (in some cases.). So this kind of interpretation has the means of being quick and easy, but may lack in other areas. Let me know what you think. Dave.

M-Press
18-09-2003, 18:58
Oh, i see I was late, but i can't wait to see what will come from the above data...
Very interesting...
I also try to see if I can figure anything out! (I wouldn't dare post anything on it though!)
Dave-lemmeno if you mind more data... and got time...
I can't believe how much time we spend on this forum! :)

M-Press
18-09-2003, 19:07
Mercury retro, gives me mail problems, so i just got your review Dave.
I wish I knew the person! I'm impressed, even though i don't though. I can see the "make sense of all this"....

By the way, I'm a "she", and I feel most priviledged here, between a duel of two sharp swords! yahhhheeee!

Now, i know I hinted this before, but if you can agree to do mine, i know that I will learn much more, because I will be able to compare what you'll say to the 20 years of my chart probbing....
maybe i can do a reading for you instead? (I don't dare yet, but maybe the time has come ...)

dadsnook2000
18-09-2003, 22:57
Hi.
As you probably suspect, Minderwiz and I have a lot of fun here, not only adding some (hopefully) helpful comments on a very complex subject but also in playing with our common area of interest. In fact, that is one of the best ways of learning -- making a game out of it.
You may certainly submit an ordered list of planets from your chart. It may take a few days depending upon how my family life and schedule shapes up. My wife and I are raising three grand children and their school and sports/interests schedules fill up a lot of day sometimes. Then, a lot of our own activities add to that. But then, a busy life is better than a dull one.
After Minderwiz reads and replys to the comments I'll share with those following this list the methodology used for the given interpretations. The best thing about this method is that it is quick, can be done right from an ephemeris or sun-sign chart, and provides a fairly good grasp of the chart's meaning. I believe that we make things too complex. In the middle ages and earlier there was a lot less chart data to analyze so dignities and house rulerships were important. Today, with computers, we have too much information and the work of synthesizing a chart is overly large -- we tend to lose the intuitive approach that is so essential to understanding any symbolic language. That is not to say that we shouldn't study all branches and methodologies of astrology. Its just that there may not be any need to employ so many of them at one time. For example, in addition to using the method I employed in this thread I would feel comfortable just using mid-points or just using phase relationships in lieu of reading a more conventional chart. Both of those methods are very accurate but they will not duplicate in all respects the readings by another method -- each has their application. The same is true for viewing current and future events. I love Solar Returns for doing predictions, but years back I loved Lunar Returns. Transits were interesting but not reliable by themselves -- the same is true for secondary progressions -- each needed something else to act as triggers. Harmonic charts can be fascinating also but their use is dictated (for me) by an intuitive sense of the chart. Some people are solar or luna types, others are aspect driven. Knowing what might work best just comes from experience. And when all is said and done, everyone has the own preferences and they all work. In that sense, astrology is like tarot -- the magic is in the reader.
So, don't be hesitant in playing these games with Minderwiz and I. Thats what this list is for. Dave.

M-Press
18-09-2003, 23:42
Oh Dave, thanks for all of this!
I'm getting inspired here again, my passion for astrology renewed! I really wish I had more time for this!
I'm mostly in which planet in which house, and in which sign...I love predictive astrology, but still haven't got a clue how to go about it... All I know i learned from books, and until i found this fotum I was the only "stranger" around!
Finally soemone speaks my language!
I would like to add a couple of personal comments as well, but i'll wait till you see my palnets! i don't want to give away too much!
And yes, i'm looking forward to more of these "games", as well as your duels!!!
(no rush by the way, for this at all!!!!)

Here is my info:
Asc
Saturn
(Juno)
Moon
Pluto
Uranus
Mars
Venus
Jupiter
Sun
Neptune
Mercury
MC
North Node
Chiron

Thank you! :)

Minderwiz
19-09-2003, 01:15
Hi Dave,

Sorry for any delay in replying, (the dreaded demands of work!). I've only had chance to do one read on the material - However there are some clear hits - the summary especially is good.

The person concerned is my daughter - yes she is sensitive to the needs of others but can definitely be intense. Yes perhaps more idealistic in terms of values than average but not a dreamy 'Neptune' type. Action tends to be considered rather than impulsive but consideration is not overdone - a good but quick analysis and then action (Significant Aries including Mars in the sign of its rulership). The only on/off side tends to be with boyfriends where the decisiveness can break down. The living pattern does indeed need to be consistent Jupiter rules the fourth and there needs to be comfort and development from the home environment.

Yes a strong business mind is definitely there Mercury rules the MC Mercury is also Conjunct with both Mars and Venus - sharp mind and a balanced mind.

Yes she is a planner - Virgo Ascendant and large dash of Aries - she plans as though for battle and therefore usually gets what she wants, whilst still having the caring side you mentioned earlier.

And yes she often ends up as a helper/supporter to friends often in an 'organising way' - she organises them.

OK there are a fair number of hits there., more in part 2 than part 1 overall, though given the space here, I know you can't go into much detail and so somethings are rather general (the same would be true of a reading based on any system).

Incidentally I nearly added to my list of planets a statement that if you gave me the interpretation I'd tell you how you did it! I actually did do a little chase up myself and much of what I noted down is what you have said. The point though is that you have done what you said and produced an interpretation, without using signs or aspects and it isn't bad at all. Whether it could be better done using signs and aspects is something we can discuss as we go on.

I think its best 'do' M-Press now but perhaps we could maybe start a fresh thread to look at some of the issues raised and have a discussion about comparative techniques. There is fun but also real learning to be had here and it does and should make the rest of us think carefully about our techniques and the rationale behind them.

I look forward with real interest to the rest of the thread and subsequent discussion.

M-Press
19-09-2003, 08:15
I went through Dave's interpretation of M's daughter chart...again...
M talks mentions the methodology...
Besides combining what is in front and what after, is there really any?
Isn't this "method" more about the relationship between neighbours? How pluto will affect with intensity, Jupiter with expansion, and the Moon with moody changes?

But, even then, I don't think that I could come up with such great descriptions/interpretations...(with practice one day, maybe...)
so, in this case, i do agree with dave, that the magic is in the reader... (although I usually rely on the "hard-fact" stuff... Time for change, i guess...

Of course, if there is any hidden method here, secretly passed from generation to generation, let me know, please!!!!

yes, this IS great learning! Thanks!

dadsnook2000
19-09-2003, 10:34
Lee, I don't want to ignore your post. I did recognize that the power zones near the angles are more appropriate than the house area after the angle when I read Gauquin's research. This concept has also long been held by the Sidereal school of astrology, long before the Frenchman's research. The angles are strong. I have also attributed certain characteristics to each angle for interpretation purposes when that angle is contacted by a planet -- also when I progress a precessed solar return chart so that one angles moves ahead and contacts another angle. I've found that to be highly significant in predictive work to define events that will happen. But all of that is another subject or another thread. The Siderealists use an aspect that many mainstream astrologers do not -- the PARAN SQUARE. This aspect is formed when two planets each contact an adjacent angle (for example; Sun on the ASC, Mars on the IC where the angular separation is not 90 degrees but may be 107 degrees or something). The fact that both bodies are at an angle brings them into a "paran square." Think of those few references where an astrologer notes that one planet is rising over the ASC at the same time that another planet culminates. That is an example of two planets being angular during the daily rotation of the earth at the same time. It is a a powerful "aspect." You can check out a software program's rise-set-culminate-anti-culminate chart and look for two/more planets that will be at an angle at/near the same time. Even if those planets do not form a normal aspect or are not angular in your chart they will be strongly evident in your expression and life. Check it out. And please do not hesitate to jump into our playing here. Dave.

dadsnook2000
19-09-2003, 11:00
In this post I will attempt to explain the METHODOLOGY of the "no aspects" interpretation that I provided earlier.
***
The methodology is called "Planetary Containment." The method has been most significantly deliniated in a 1980 book titled "Planets in Containment" by John Sandbach and Ronn Ballard, published by Seek-It Publications, Birmingham, MI, USA. Prior to this book the French astrologer Valguine (who also did extensive research on solar returns -- my favorite subject) was the most significant advocate of this methodology. Prior to him were Raymond Merriman, Marc Edmond Jones, and Michael Meyers -- all of whom utilized partial approaches of this theory. Before all of them were the East Indians who utilized a modified version of Containments coupled with Yoga's (rules of interpretation).
***
The method is best summed up by quoting directly from the book itself. "The first planet of a containment group of three provides a basis and foundation for the three. The second planet is the pivot point of the group, the fulcrum and and balance point, and the third planet shows the directional thrust of the three." When assessing a three planet combination, the degree arc/distance between them is given no concern. They may be close (almost a conjunction) or widely separated by half/more of the chart. The East Indians did limit the separation to some 30 degrees or so.
***
A book example: Sun-Mercury-Saturn. These individuals demonstrate an ability for purposeful thinking and for mastering the art of communicating the importance of their ideas twoard the practical implementation of their goals. They can do this through sytematizing and organizing their ideas, and following them through to concretion. As they develop their skills, it will be to their advantage to focus and define what they wish to accomplish through the communication process, and realize that in expressing an idea it si the quality rather than the quantity which brings the best results.
***
When you read this you can see how Sun symbology launches ideas and communication (Mercury), and sets it into motion via a Saturnian method or imprint. Now M-Press did pick up on the fact that the neighboring planets were involved. The "key" is that the first planet provides a basis or foundation for the second planet to work with and that the second/middle planet is the primary expression or force yet it directs itself in a manner that the thrird planet provides. So, in this example Mercury symbols reflect the core/true values of the Sun and are guided into full expression by the values of Saturn.
*** When I do "No Aspects -- part four" I expect to lay out the interpretations for M-Press. Dave.

M-Press
19-09-2003, 19:04
Superb....!

dadsnook2000
20-09-2003, 02:56
Since no one has brought this issue up, I will. Both Containments and Mid-Points have three-planet/point combinations. ARE THEY THE SAME?
*** No. Mid-Points occur when one planet has an equal arc (in degrees) to two other planets/points -- it therefore is midway between the other two planets. This condition is also applied to the 90 degree wheel methodology (actually a fourth harmoic) which results in squares and semi-squares being treated much like conjunctions and oppositions. In other words, for practical purposes it makes no difference if the middle planet is actually at the mid-point, opposite it (same thing), square or semi-square the mid-point. The interpetation is that the "middle" planet expresses itself through a synthesis of the other two planets.
*** This is different from a Containment combination. The middle planet expresses itself as itself BUT builds upon the prior (CW) planet's meaning and is directed through the following (CCW) planet's energy. Think about any group of planets relative to the ASC degree. Some planets are above the horizon at birth (in many cases, but not all). Let's assume that these "influence" the newly born person in some manner. A few minutes later, or an hour later, the Moon rises over the horizon -- Wow, something new has just been presented; a tidal surge of emotions, a sense that my needs have to be attended to, a feeling that others will respond to my efforts to attract their attention. After all of this is assimilated, along comes Mars. Now what, a sense that something should be done arises. Containments are like this in that they recognize an evolution or sequence of foundation, expressional development and then expressional outlet. This has a subtle interpretation that perhaps mid-points lack.
*** This is thrown out for discussion. I note that there are a large number of viewers to this thread that are not joining in. I invite you all to participate in any manner appropriate to your interests and experience. Dave.

Minderwiz
20-09-2003, 05:53
I actually have the Sandbach and Ballard book (though I have only really done occasional dips into it) - so when I said I had my doubts about forecasts without aspects, I was aware of the likely method Dave would use. That's also the reason why I didn't particularly see my post as a challenge per se - I knew it could be done. My 'doubts' are more related to whether it is a prime method or one that can provide supporting and additional information to a 'conventional' reading, or indeed be used in conjunction with other unconventional techniques - I suppose at the extreme, the issue is whether it is worth the trouble. I think Dave has done enough to show that the approach warrants some serious consideration, rather than simply being dismissed as a bit 'off the wall'.

Because of the number of combinations of runs, (the sub-title mentions 990) its difficult for the authors to do more than put in short paragraphs 'cookbook' style - so it was good to see Dave's interpretation as a practical exercise. The authors themselves say that the book cannot teach everything about containment - it's only designed to give the basic nature of the idea. So perhaps later on we can begin to look at the underpinning detail of the ideas.

M-Press
20-09-2003, 22:05
I think i have beed missing the midpoints too! i thought it was about finding an average point between the same planet in 2 charts (composits). Well...something new everyday...

Minderwiz wrote: "Because of the number of combinations of runs, (the sub-title mentions 990) its difficult for the authors to do more than put in short paragraphs 'cookbook' style"-----
This strengthens what I thought before, that the magic is in the reader. If one REALLY understood this principle well, and practiced, of course, then they would be able to not even use the "cookbook".
A little like reading three different cards together maybe? learning to make the connections?

what I'm curious about though, is weather this method gives something beyond a regular chart reading with planets and houses. I'm sure, like Dave mentioned, that this method is good for some things and not others?BUT, I have the feeling, that there is something general, but very important given with the containments. That "subtle" thing...

and then, I ask again, what is astology for? What is the best part it can give us? Prediction, or just understanding "what is"?
How is this method for synastry/composits? can it be applied?

I'm in dangerous zone....I can quit work and just do that all day!
:-)

dadsnook2000
20-09-2003, 23:03
M-Press, you raise good questions. Like any subject, if you use it enough and apply it well then you will have less/little need for reference books. This is why I had mentioned at one point that I had thrown away hundreds of books that I hadn't looked at in perhaps 10 or 20 years.
Now, Planetary Containments are (for me) still a little new and I do refer to that book. It's not that one can't put together a three planet meaning -- it is that the expression of the middle planet has to build upon the CW planet (which rises first over the horizon) and then use the CCW planet to shape its expression. This is not just a three-planet blending as our mind thinks of it but is a progression of energies through stages of development.
NOTE that when I gave some interpretations that I indicated that one quality or another would have to be developed through experience (over time). Minderwiz's daughter (as it turned out) has not yet had enough life experience to fully develop some of these subtle expressions. This is why some of my statements may have been appropriate but not fully considered as "hits" by Minderwiz. Whether accurate or not, this interpretative approach recognizes that when doing a blind chart we cannot specifically state that such and such is true. Potential is just that. It comes in bits and pieces over time.
*** It is possible, and I have not yet fully explored this, that the distance between planets in a three-planet combination may symbolically represent the amount of relative time that it takes for the fully meaning to develop. THIS IS NOT IN ANY BOOK. For example, if the middle planet is 30 degrees from the prior planet and 60 degrees from the following (CCW) planet then the energies might take longer (later in adult hood) to learn to fully express themselves. If the other way around, the querent may express those qualities early in life but not have the foundation to give them substance or impact in their life. IF THIS IS TRUE in a general sense, then Planetary Containments can give us a sense of development over time as part of the pre-calculation quickie reading -- giving us a headsup in terms of what to expect in transit and secondary progression work, if we need to do that.
*** So, to answer another implied question, yes this system is subtle, appears to have a lot to offer the astrological community, and can be used as a primary method of chart interpretation if one wishes to do so. Dave.

M-Press
21-09-2003, 01:29
Dave-
I read your last post a couple of times, and will need to re-read a few more, and think about it for quite a while.
You stated some very interesting things there...a big "dessert for thought"!!!

This interested me especially: ". . . the distance between planets in a three-planet combination may symbolically represent the amount of relative time that it takes for the fully meaning to develop."

I now know what it takes to make such a "reading", alot of "cooking" and time and creativity, so i'll wait patiently, but breathlessly, to the forecoming evolutions, because I feel that there is something very significant in the whole thing...
Thanks!

Minderwiz
21-09-2003, 09:01
Dave,

I fully agree with your point about potential. A natal chart shows a person's potential and of course potential is realised over time a bit at a time and sometimes some potential may not be realised at all. So people even in their 50s or 60s may still have quite a piece of potential to achieve. My daughter is 24 so there is still a lot of room there.

I appreciate your point about whether or not proximity is a factor. It certainly would be one of the issues I would want to look at more closely. There are certain traditional techniques which use some three planet runs or perhaps combinations would be a better term here. Seventeenth century astrologers would certainly consider it significant if a planet was 'sandwiched' by Mars and Saturn or by Venus and Jupiter. However I think they would only consider the issue significant if the planets were either in the same sign, or possibly the same house. Thus they would not give significance to say, Mars in Cancer, Mercury in Leo and Saturn in Libra, (with no other intervening planets). Clearly the Sandbach and Ballard approach would give this run significance.

The possibility of looking at development over life is fascinating and I think it was A. T. Mann who also tried to look at the idea of development through his 'Life Time Astrology' approach (though this latter approach is heavily related to the houses).

As you say there is a lot of work still to be done on this approach. One of the problems of a 'cookbook' approach (and this will apply to conventional astrology just as much) is that the statements become general and it is difficult to be specific. General statements are bound to score some hits. Hopefully as the technique is developed then there will be a clearer correlation between prediction and event (or character).

dadsnook2000
21-09-2003, 10:03
Relative to development time and space between planets in a combination -- perhaps we could start looking at this issue. Two things need to be considered. 1) This thread is titled "Different House Systems" and we have gotten off of that track. Do we need to continue within a thread titled Planets in Containment? 2) Since we already have done your daughter's planets should we explore editing the deliniations given previously to reflect the earlier-later developmental factors? This would neccessitate sharing the chart -- you or she may not care for that. 3) After I do M-press's planets (either here or on a new thread) we might ask for the planet positions (sign and degree) and then afterwards edit those to reflect developmental early-later factors. This could be interesting. Perhaps everyone watching and participating in this thread might want to comment -- there are a lot of quiet readers out there. Dave.

dadsnook2000
21-09-2003, 12:33
Hi M-press. Relative to your planet listing I note the following: The nodes and Chiron are not noted in the reference book, and I do not utilize Chiron in any of my work -- so it's doubtful if I could shed any significant insights relative to it. We'll continue using the same format as used with Minderwiz's listing.
*** mc-ASC-saturn. Personal goals, corporate goals and public posture is expressed on a personal level -- as a spokesman for a company or institution or in a public-relations like advocation. You may, for example, find unique expression through a given discipline or interest.
*** asc-SATURN-moon. Personal experience can be utilized to structure ones daily routings, gaining efficiency and control over an enviornment that strikes you as being to changable. Others who may have impressed you in the past might provide a profile for your own mannerisms or ways of dealing with the public. The public may become a focus for your own training and studies as you tend to seek out service opportunities.
NOTE: The two previous interpretations are not to be found in the book referenced earlier in this thread as the combination of the ASC and MC is not included in any three-planet combination. Therefore I would be appreciative of any feedback on these combinations as well as the final neptune-MC-asc combo. Dave.
*** saturn-MOON-pluto. Family heritage and past training impacts the manner in which you deal with people. There may be a reluctance to "let go" in some situations -- this may have prompted a break or change in life style or family connections to faciliate or permit you in following your passions and vision.
*** moon-PLUTO-uranus. Earlier experiences in home life and in public situations may have provided a confidence level and skill set sufficient to meet some unusual challenges in your life. You tend not to live a sheltered life. You either look for freedom's or find ways to help others find freedom of one sort or another.
*** pluto-URANUS-mars. I sense flashes of cognition in this pattern. How might they occur? Large groups, institutions and/or government experiences might have prompted a social sense that seeks a form of activism. This is a heavy pattern that can symbolically show itself in very many ways. In this case I'll not try for specifics until or unless there is an opportunity to look at the complete chart or in a one-on-one dialog.
*** uranus-MARS-venus. Venus seeks to channel activities into a harmonious and pleasing venue. Is your Mars creative, active, angry, disciplined, emotional or a curious driver to understand? I suspect it may be the latter of all the possibilities mentioned. But Mars can express itself in many ways, often with tints of individuality, or at times of your own choosing.
*** I'll look at the remaining combinations in another posting. Dave.

M-Press
21-09-2003, 20:57
VERY interesting Dave,
Thank you!!!!!
i wil digest for a bit, and let me know when is best to respond. Maybe after we get them all? Then I can also lay out the planets in signs /houses, what you mentioned earlier...
i want to think of the time release issue as well... there is a bit oart about it there...
;-)

dadsnook2000
22-09-2003, 13:59
This post addresses the remaining planets in containment for M-Press.
*** mars-VENUS-jupiter. Venus, drawing up the Mars energy, is a seductress pattern. It suggests an internal aggressiveness that drives a creative, harmonizing, socializing and acquisitive nature that seeks to play before a crowd and fulfill a social service vision.
*** venus-JUPITER-sun. Just as we had a complementary pair in the previous 3 planet containment (Mars & Venus), we also have another pair here -- Venus & Jupiter (benifics) as well as Jupiter & Sun (the only two radiating bodies in the solar system). This is self-powering combination, optimism in overdrive. This is a center stage pattern, a before the crowd and performing on a high pattern. How is a celeberty aura to be managed to achieve goals? Perhaps when I get to the point where I summarize and synthesize these combinations it will be possible to paint some concrete examples of this pattern.
*** jupiter-SUN-neptune. This comes back to an earlier pattern where the question of how the MC and ASC worked out in terms of being a spokesman or front-man for something. Here, social sensitivity, involvement and contacts support the Sun's strong self-identity and desire to integrate all components of a plan or of an organization's resources to reach an ideal or play out a message. Perhaps the venus-jupiter-sun pattern is a strong part of this. How do you seek to influence large numbers of people, M-Press?
*** sun-NEPTUNE-mercury. Ethics and beliefs support an idealism and vision that leads to mental imaging, plans, talk and suggestions -- or internal daydreaming. Plans can be subject to constant revision, there may be trouble articulating or convincing others relative to your point of view. The question that arises is, "do you do things on a personal scale or do you have an opportunity to work in the public eye on behalf of a large orgainization of some sort?" Its easer to work on a personal level, of course, but time might permit the development of opportunities in marketing or as a press representative (examples) to speak for others, or to act as a religous spokesperson or critic.
*** neptune-MERCURY-mc. The prior combination feeds directly into this planetary containment. Will your words and plans find a clear outlet, will they manifest as public achievements?
*** mercury-MC-asc. Here we end up almost on the same vein as the one we started with. The MC is the focus, Mercury provides a mental or internal vision, and the Asc seeks to direct this energy pattern. This pattern could support a writer, a press release writer, a speaker or spokesperson, a salesman, someone who talks to others.
*** SUMMARY. Astrologers see a chart as "potential." Potential requires an enviornment that enables it to unfold. That a key question here, "What is your environment?" You have had a decade as an adult to build a resume, connections, and firm up your interest areas. The sequence of MC, ASC and Saturn suggests a highly structured or specialized "sales" mode -- be it as a representative for an organization, a free-lancer within an industry, or a person-to-person selling of your services and skills. Family connections may have served to get you started or now serve your efforts. There seems to be a "freedom" streak here that may just be personality but is more likely a result of a major break with family or tradition. In some manner, intuition and inspiration seem wrapped up in what you do. Except in sales or marketing, PR, inventive areas (I don't see this), writing, film or TV work, or counseling/psychology intuition and inspiration is not often welcome in large organizations. I suspect you operate more as a lone-wolf, consultant, or self-employed service area. The Mars factor, among other things, points to a level of creativity that is applied in perhaps several areas. Personal magnetism and close contacts are utilized to advance your goals. Optimism and confidence are high, perhaps not always with reason. The mind's plans and hopes are both helpful and distractive I suspect. Unless there is a background of formal education and skill building within the commercial/organizational world, you tend to work one-on-one or for smaller, independent groups. So, do we have a visionary, a tarot reader, a charming con-man, a sales person, a consultant, etc.? This seems to be the area of focus. The questions, if this is true, to ask next is how to utilize these many strengths to best serve you. Dave.

M-Press
22-09-2003, 22:57
Dave-
First of all thank you so much for taking all this time to do this. It has brought me to an unexpected place. Having to respond to all this, is a very good excersice, and I will try to give you back the best feedback i can, although i must say it's difficult to respond on myself, lacking maybe some objectivity?

So,If I won't be objective enough, this will be:
Nov 21, 1970, Athens, Greece, 14:30pm.

I will give you response on the summary first, and later on the rest (I still need to cook a bit those...)

- "What is my environment?": well that has been changing quite a lot, I've moved countries 6 times! hard to find approval, especially where I'm looking to find from .Otherwise plenty.

- "a highly structured or specialized "sales" mode": I'm definitely a part of the industry, used to work for major publisher, and in design studios- but never did actual "sales". But, yes, the way I work, is VERY structured and pattern oriented.

-"freedom: definitely!!!!!. Both at work (need to do my thing, express my own), but especially with family. Yes, major breakups (physical separations too), I'm considered a total "wiredo", but i see myself as pretty conservative! Have been always independent.

-"intuition and inspiration": yes! definitely in my work/art, but even in the way i balance my bank account-never calculating, just "feeling" things out-always worked for me...

-"lone-wolf": true too, although I used to be a part of the corporate world. I also served in the army, and must say I hated that! all my "traits" were good for nothing there!
Right now I'm freelancing/self employed. I consider that a major advancement in my development.... I enjoy following my own rhythm.

-"Mars-creativity":my Mars (in Libra) is definitely that, but more too, (further on this in the no aspects)

-"The mind's plans and hopes are both helpful and distractive": right on!
AND
-"Optimism and confidence...not always with reason": yes, this goes to the extreme, and in both ways, some good, some bad (Sun conjunct Jupiter, in Scorpio)


"So, do we have a visionary?": he...he.... I 'm not sure I understand what that is, but then I think I do... I'm an graphic designer/artist, who had plenty of formal education and skills, and can deal with the corporate world. This I had to do because of where I came from.
With these standards, NOW, I have allowed my other interests (astrology, tarot, making art), to become the center of my work and creations. I left my secure job, and found security in my dedication to "my thing". I started my venture, a brand (sakki-sakki.com), something like a visual language, that i plan (!!!) to apply onto different products. One of them is a tarot deck... So, this is my freedom, and maybe this is how I try and influence a lot of people?

More on the separate aspects, on another post.
Thanks again Dave!

M-Press
22-09-2003, 23:05
*** mc-ASC-saturn. Personal goals, corporate goals and public posture is expressed on a personal level -- as a spokesman for a company or institution or in a public-relations like advocation. You may, for example, find unique expression through a given discipline or interest.
-------------
This is a little "wide" for me to grasp. I used to be the head of the students council once, and I did take everything personally, and the same when working for a big corporate company. Is that what you mean?
Also, i definitely find unique expression through stuff...my art for example. it's my hobby, my career, my studies, my passion... I'm just not sure if this is what you mean... (I'm not an "out there" spokesman or things like that...), although, I could be!!! (I'm usually opinionated, and don't care if I'm "different".

*** asc-SATURN-moon. Personal experience can be utilized to structure ones daily routings, gaining efficiency and control over an enviornment that strikes you as being to changable. Others who may have impressed you in the past might provide a profile for your own mannerisms or ways of dealing with the public. The public may become a focus for your own training and studies as you tend to seek out service opportunities.
------------
I'm not sure I understand this one either... (especially the first sentence) I'm not saying it's not a hit, just that I'm not sure what it means (maybe also the language barrier).
I don't see myself as a service person, and my studies are art/psychology/occult oriented. So, the public wouldn't be a focus for me, BUT, I DO want to find way to bring these things to the public (like my tarot deck, I'm making it in a way that it will appeal to people not into "that stuff".

*** saturn-MOON-pluto. Family heritage and past training impacts the manner in which you deal with people. There may be a reluctance to "let go" in some situations -- this may have prompted a break or change in life style or family connections to faciliate or permit you in following your passions and vision.
-------------
I think this is right on. family pulls one way, me the other. I have to be independent and on my own to be able to do my thing, but the heritage is there, and shapes my ambitious drive.

*** moon-PLUTO-uranus. Earlier experiences in home life and in public situations may have provided a confidence level and skill set sufficient to meet some unusual challenges in your life. You tend not to live a sheltered life. You either look for freedom's or find ways to help others find freedom of one sort or another.
----------
I think that's true too...although, I work on an "insurance--policy" style. Meaning, my life is full of drastic changes, and I do meet unusual challenges. If there aren't any, I create them. BUT, I "don't jump in the water, unless I know how to swim!"


will continue....

M-Press
22-09-2003, 23:11
*** pluto-URANUS-mars. I sense flashes of cognition in this pattern. How might they occur? Large groups, institutions and/or government experiences might have prompted a social sense that seeks a form of activism. This is a heavy pattern that can symbolically show itself in very many ways. In this case I'll not try for specifics until or unless there is an opportunity to look at the complete chart or in a one-on-one dialog.
---------------
I'm not sure what "flashes of cognition" is... let's wait here...on this heavy pattern... :-)

*** uranus-MARS-venus. Venus seeks to channel activities into a harmonious and pleasing venue. Is your Mars creative, active, angry, disciplined, emotional or a curious driver to understand? I suspect it may be the latter of all the possibilities mentioned. But Mars can express itself in many ways, often with tints of individuality, or at times of your own choosing.
-----------
This I find most intriguing, because I think my Mars is...all of the above!
I'm highly creative, energetic, initiative, (can be anrgy if too much opposition arises), definitely disciplined, and emotional too... Doesn't that make it curious to understand? and all the activities, are definitely into a harmonious and pleasing venue... (arts...), and I hate arguments...

*** mars-VENUS-jupiter. Venus, drawing up the Mars energy, is a seductress pattern. It suggests an internal aggressiveness that drives a creative, harmonizing, socializing and acquisitive nature that seeks to play before a crowd and fulfill a social service vision.
------------
he...he...probably true! I do get on stage sometimes... :-)

*** venus-JUPITER-sun. . . . . This is self-powering combination, optimism in overdrive. This is a center stage pattern, a before the crowd and performing on a high pattern. . . . .
------------
he...he... (again). self-powering and self-enthusiastic is certainly me!

*** jupiter-SUN-neptune. This comes back to an earlier pattern where the question of how the MC and ASC worked out in terms of being a spokesman or front-man for something. Here, social sensitivity, involvement and contacts support the Sun's strong self-identity and desire to integrate all components of a plan or of an organization's resources to reach an ideal or play out a message. Perhaps the venus-jupiter-sun pattern is a strong part of this. How do you seek to influence large numbers of people, M-Press?
--------------
ooooohhhhh! I want to publish my stuff and to have various merchandise made after my brand!


more......

M-Press
22-09-2003, 23:20
*** sun-NEPTUNE-mercury. Ethics and beliefs support an idealism and vision that leads to mental imaging, plans, talk and suggestions -- or internal daydreaming. Plans can be subject to constant revision, there may be trouble articulating or convincing others relative to your point of view. . . . . . . . .
----------
Hm...
Constant revision of plans, is very true. I usually know the WHAT, but have trouble with the HOW, so....
I'm definitely not in the public eye, and have no wish to be, BUT I do want my work to be! Maybe the "time release" thing, will allow the development of opportunities in marketing?

*** neptune-MERCURY-mc. The prior combination feeds directly into this planetary containment. Will your words and plans find a clear outlet, will they manifest as public achievements?
--------------------
I'm not so familiar with MC...
but I DEFINITELY ask my self that question: Will my art and brand ever take off????


*** mercury-MC-asc. Here we end up almost on the same vein as the one we started with. The MC is the focus, Mercury provides a mental or internal vision, and the Asc seeks to direct this energy pattern. This pattern could support a writer, a press release writer, a speaker or spokesperson, a salesman, someone who talks to others.
-----------
Well, I'm up to finish my deck, and will start writing a book on it...
The writing by the way, is something I developed in the past 2 years. (talking about time release...). before that, i felt that since no language of mine is 100%, i can not write at all!


In my chart, Saturn sits on my ASC, and opposes pretty much everything "on the other side", (all my planets between 4-7 houses). here I think lays the time release thing..
is there a place in you analysis, that this shows? (i felt it here and there in pieces, and i'm wondering is it's out there, but i can not see it...)

I'm lucky i saw Minderwiz's response on his daugher!

Thank you!