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Rosanne
25-04-2012, 11:04
Well a musing on the subject at least...... OH where to put this thread?????

In the TdM cards the title of card 1 is the Bateleur- a French word meaning tightrope walker/dancer.
Tight rope walking has a long history from Egyptian times.
The European word is Funambulus from the Latin word Funis- a rope and ambulare meaning to walk.

Why is our Man on the card not on a tightrope?
Bateleur is a very specific term- so specific that a Kite/hawk is called a Bateleur from the way it flies using it’s wings like a walkers pole to balance, tipping from side to side.

To use the terms that bring to mind fairground hustlers- like thimblerigger- flimflam man- juggler , jongleur etc, seems more appropriate. Maybe it was a mistake? Maybe it was indicating someone else?
It is my contention that it may well be depicting a Lawyer- that vilified profession in the years of TdM Tarot’s birth.

Frederick ll of Hohenstaufen (1194-1250) who to his death was the Holy Roman Emperor, was a clever man and one of his essays was on the Structure and Habit of Birds He studied Aristotle and used a Aristotelian habit of dividing subject matter into positive and negative statements, and started with the positive debate. For this essay he deviated it would seem. He talked of birds been raptorial and non raptorial and the Bateleur is raptorial who prey upon those they are able to hold- they feed only on their prey therefore are not carrion. They are called ‘rapacious’ or ‘greedy clawed’ and they are robbers.
Methinks Frederick was bitten by ecclesiastical Lawyers!

In the beginning of the Middle ages because Germanic rulers had gradually taken over control of Government, the existing Legal system needed mending -Law schools had closed and before the 12th Century there was no longer trained jurists in Italy, Spain, France and Great Britain. Judges and Lawyers with formal training in the Roman legal system were gone. In the 12th century they started to re-appear because Roman Law and Cannon Law was revived in Bologna and Paris. (Specific Universites)So those lay people who had been advocates for the people until then were untrained and in the main unscrupulous. By the time of the Renaissance…..significant numbers of Lawyers (who practised in the Church Courts especially) were depicted by many authors as Bloodsuckers, Hypercritics, Sacrilegious, Foul mouthed, devious, deceitful,
rapacious- Vultures- Kites- Hawks was just a few names. This vilification lasts to this very day.
I think that card one would have been quickly recognised back then not as a fair ground man, but the man who the practiced Law as the ultimate confidence game. The raptorial bird- the Bateleur. Note the predominate purse on the table.

~Rosanne

Bernice
25-04-2012, 20:33
"......but the man who the practiced Law as the ultimate confidence game. The raptorial bird- the Bateleur. Note the predominate purse on the table."

Missed you Rosanne!
Seems the ideal place for this thread - it's a post about a Marseille card supported with historical data.

Bear with me..... the spanish (tarot) deck went to France and Le Bateleur is the french title. If it reflects the original one for this card, then I think you've made a brilliant deduction. (especially useful for readings).

Love your brain. :)

Bee x

Rosanne
25-04-2012, 22:14
Hi Bee ! Waving frantically!!!!

Hmmmm, it is for enriching readings that I try and look at the cards with a critical eye, from the everyday ways of back 600 years or so.
It must be said that other cards have other titles- like Bagattelliere, which Kwaw has said means through translation a seller of Trifles. The French Title has stayed, along with his dressy clothes which always confused me. Even if you think this card depicts a merchant, apart from the thimble scam- the other articles on the bench are a strange array. Sometimes an inkpot, a knife, a pen, two cups (never three) or cakes, always a purse- although on the cary-yale sheet the purse is at the waist. Italian cards have a a tooth extractor, boots......What is a fairground flimflam man doing with a pen and Inkpot? One 18th Century TdM type has books and what appears to be three Herrings. Very fishy.

They all have this thingy stick in their hand that has been appropriated for a magicians wand.
He Ho... more musing to be done.
~Rosanne

Bernice
25-04-2012, 23:26
Waving back!

I have to admit that after a number of discussions here & elsewhere I finally settled for the flimflam man approach, aside from the visconti fellow (straw-hat discussion) who may be about to dole out wages.

But as you say all versions are holding/waving a 'stick', (pointer, pen, thing to poke people with?). Would members of the legal profession carry a stick-like thing I wonder - badge of office? Although if it's a pen, plus the ink-wells = perhaps it's meant to convey that the person is carrying out some sort of legal or civil undertaking (as you surmise).

Flimflam or lawyer, the only difference would be that one is legimately scamming the public, and other isn't!

Bee x

Sumada
26-04-2012, 05:44
Very interesting. Thank you...

Rosanne
26-04-2012, 09:04
Well very interesting.... Volume 11 Of Kaplan has many examples of this card and if you look at the various printings, for example The Giacomo Recchi Tarot p.358... with a magnifying glass, the cylinder in the hand is a roll of paper/parchment.
His License? Or maybe if a Lawyer the one page Consilia or legal advice he was required to present. A diploma maybe-not a wand it would seem.

~Rosanne

Debra
26-04-2012, 22:09
Questions questions.

What about the history of judicial dress? There's an article about it...

http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?fromPage=online&aid=2948664

I think people wore uniforms indicating social class and trades. I have the impression that every profession had a kind of uniform, as many do still.

Sounds like they would have worn scholars' robes back in the day. http://www.nswbar.asn.au/docs/about/what_is/gowns.pdf

In decks where there's a cobbler rather than a whatever-he-is, he wears the shoemaker's apron.

Wouldn't more people know the montebank than the lawyer?

And what about Justice? How does the lawyer be #1 while Justice is higher?

eta: According to wikipedia :rolleyes: there wasn't much in the way lawyering going on at the time--http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_legal_profession#Middle_Ages

uuuggghhh there's books on the history of the legal profession...kill me now....

garmonbozia
26-04-2012, 23:53
Even if you think this card depicts a merchant, apart from the thimble scam- the other articles on the bench are a strange array.

Great thread. The inconsistencies of this card over the centuries is exactly what makes it my favorite. I've never been able to settle on what I think this card really means, yet I feel incredibly drawn to it and I love studying the differences between the many different interpretations of it (even just among the TdMs).

Rosanne
27-04-2012, 10:22
Hi Debra and Garmonbozia!
Well the reason I chose the TdM (as in the Noblet ) is that this is the type of card that was modelled for the Magician now. Yes I agree that there are distinct variations of what is held in the hand- a chalice/cup for example in some Italian cards, along with different things like pliers and bandages which would indicate a dentist or doctor. The cup for wine?
Wine was what they poured on wounds as an antiseptic.

We also do not know if types like the Noblet were the most common and liked cards- because the most used cards would not have survived given the usuage and material.
So along came those quasi secret societies who thought the Tarot was ancient knowledge from Egypt and hey presto we have a wand. As is above- so below. This lasts to this day given Pamela's cards.

Debra asks what is a lawyer doing as card One? What if that wand was a rolled scroll called an Indulgence? I have often thought and indeed argued that cards were a parody- a joke against the church. There is this humour, cartooney look to many that survived long after woodblocks crude carving(except in Germany i.e Drurer) and followed into printing presses.

Looking at early playing cards- the humour is what is most striking.
Lets say for arguments sake it is an Indulgence in his hand and he is a Pardoner- the term for those ratbags that sold entrance to Heaven. You can see why the Papesse(card 2) is looking across at him with shock. The Vulture who preys and robs? The tightrope walker who walks on a rope (usually tied to the church steeple) and is the go to man for buying Heaven?
Does that not change how you view this card when reading it?

~Rosanne

Moonbow
29-04-2012, 20:59
Hi Rosanne :)

In the game of Tarot the Bateleur is the lowest ranking trump which fits with him being a con artist.... perhaps with Lawyer too, since you mention them being untrained and unscrupulous etc.

Great to see a thread which stretches us again. Bateleur as a lawyer is sending me into a Google loop.

Bernice
29-04-2012, 21:07
After giving it some thought, it has occurred to me that if the earliest production of decks were only likely to be available to the rich, then maybe the Lawyer would perhaps be the initial figure. Later on when readily available to the general public, this felow would reflect their experience of an unscruplous person.


Bee x

Rosanne
29-04-2012, 22:45
I think that there were cheaper versions available Bee. The reason is that there is documented evidence that some decks were not fine enough for the upper classes.
1497 the BIG Bonfire of the Vanities (there were earlier ones) cards were burned.
Sailors had taken cards to Japan. Soldiers had cards. I am sure that printed cards (not hand painted) were available to Mr Average- otherwise there would not have been gaming prohibitions from the pulpit. The first description we have of a 22 trump 78 deck is 1480-1500. Cards must have been freely available by then (I mean Tarot).
This card was called the Juggler( El Bagatella) and I am not sure that meant Juggler at all.
As far as I can tell it means "trifle" from the french Trufle meaning to mock -or trufler meaning to cheat. Mr 'waste your time'.

Hi Moonbow- stretch away Lol.

~Rosanne

LRichard
29-04-2012, 23:17
......So along came those quasi secret societies who thought the Tarot was ancient knowledge from Egypt and hey presto we have a wand. As is above- so below. This lasts to this day given Pamela's cards.......The Egyptian origin theory was put forth by Court de Gebelin and Eliphas Levi before the heyday of fin de siecle magical societies. In Pictorial Key to the Tarot, A.E. Waite (who was associated with the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn as was Pamela Colman Smith) makes it very clear in Part I Section 4 that he does not believe in the Egyptian origin theory: "We have now seem that there is no particle of evidence for the Egyptian origin of Tarot cards." In his discussion of the Wheel of Fortune, he states: "It is legitimate--as I have intimated--to use Egyptian symbolism when this serves our purpose, provided that no theory of origin is implied therein [italics mine]."

Zezina
29-04-2012, 23:42
Congratulations, Roseanne, on a marvellous piece of clear thinking.

Thank you so much for sharing with us the sort of gem that one hopes to find on the Forum.

Rosanne
30-04-2012, 00:56
Hi LRichard- I did not recall Mr Waite said that, but I think you would acknowledge that occult Tarot came about aprox. 1780's with Court Antione de Geblin, who was convinced that the trumps of Tarot were an Egyptian Book of Knowledge/Wisdom. Were you objecting to my writing "Quasi-secret societies"? I am not sure that you can discount The order of The Gold and Rosy Cross as after De Geblin as that society formed the basis for other societies. As was Rosicrucian/Martinists - all strong in 1750.
You must admit surely that the Pamela Colman Smith Magician was modelled on the TdM Bateleur and the enduring symbol is the wand in his hand?

Thanks Zezina from here, I am glad you are enjoying the thread.

My contention is that the TdM Bateleur is no Magician/Magus/Alchemist/Hermes. Those are powerful images. He does not have that Power- he is a fake.

~Rosanne

LRichard
30-04-2012, 03:35
Le Bateleur appears to be an entertainer of some sort, certainly not a ceremonial magician such as the Rider-Waite apparently depicts. However, as Frances Yates writes in Giordano Bruno and the Hermetic Tradition, the Corpus Hermeticum (and therefore the Emerald Tablet) is based on the Greek thought of that time, not Egyptian, and was likely written by Greek scholars living in Alexandria. I have seen so many posts stating flatly that the esoteric Tarot of the twentieth century derives directly or indirectly from the Egyptian origin "madness" (Waite's term, by the way) that I tend to react to the slightest suggestion thereof.

Bernice
30-04-2012, 04:16
Rosanne:- First post:
"In the TdM cards the title of card 1 is the Bateleur- a French word meaning tightrope walker/dancer.
Tight rope walking has a long history from Egyptian times.
The European word is Funambulus from the Latin word Funis- a rope and ambulare meaning to walk.

Why is our Man on the card not on a tightrope?
Bateleur is a very specific term- so specific that a Kite/hawk is called a Bateleur from the way it flies using it’s wings like a walkers pole to balance, tipping from side to side."


I've wondered why there are no further comments on this., unless I've missed something......
Keeping a balance on a thin line high above terra firma is a dodgy undertaking, so in this respect the 'dodginess' seems to have become 'a dodgy person' or activity/job. Or... did the dodgy person become the tightrope walker (Chicken & egg)?

Re. Laywer and rich people having the cards first - 'twas just a thought :) Thanks for clarifying that Rosanne.


LRichard: I understand your sensitivity about 'Egyptian origins' (I'm chuckling).


Bee x

Moonbow
30-04-2012, 05:14
Perhaps 'walking the tightrope' in terms of walking a fine line between breaking the law with his con artist tricks and being caught.

The purse on his table in full view of his audience does seem out of place for a fellow living the sort of lifestyle where he may have to pack up quickly and move on, and could be jumped on by thieves. I look forward to reading more about the lawyer musing.

LRichard
30-04-2012, 06:07
Indeed, tightrope walker is a figuratively appropriate term for a mountebank, which is another meaning for bateleur. The bateleur eagle (as a bird of prey) is also appropriate. Obviously these conjectures are far removed from the saintly figure of the Waite-Smith Magician with the lemniscate (sign of the Holy Spirit) above his head. The Waite deck has none of the irreverance of the TdM, with it's Bateleur snake oil salesman, a female Pope, an Empress with a prominent Adam's apple (suggesting androgyny?), a seemingly confused Lover needing encouragement from Cupid, a Chariot with the horses pulling in different directions...... :D

Debra
30-04-2012, 06:55
I have seen so many posts stating flatly that the esoteric Tarot of the twentieth century derives directly or indirectly from the Egyptian origin "madness" (Waite's term, by the way) that I tend to react to the slightest suggestion thereof.

You know, I haven't actually seen any serious recent claims that the tarot trumps originate with the Egyptians. The contemporary lwbs from the major companies attribute them to 15th century Italy. The "all about tarot" books do, too. There's an occasional alternate version, like Dai Leon's efforts to tie the cards to Persian mystics, but that's a specialist tract, not a popular history. Sometimes internet posts or you-tube videos claim a mystical Egyptian source but that's no more serious than when people say that the US Constitution forbids income tax so there's no need to pay yours--it's easy to get to documentary evidence. Kaplan's encyclopedia, Wikipedia, the main internet tarot sites--none of them claim Egypt as the source. I think the "theory of Egyptian origins" is a bogeyman who's basically dead and gone. I think, though, that since the pips and courts were inspired by Mamluk cards, the Egyptian origins theory holds a grain of truth insofar as they came from exotic lands--more exotic than Europe I mean :laugh:

LRichard
30-04-2012, 07:30
You know, I haven't actually seen any serious recent claims that the tarot trumps originate with the Egyptians......I haven't either. A few people who post here on AT claim that esoteric 20th century Tarot (such as Rider-Waite) is a product of those who believe in Egyptian origins (which is thereby supposed to discredit the creators of such decks). Naturally, I won't name names, but this false reasoning occurred once or twice in a fairly recent thread. I suppose it's too much to expect everyone to get their facts straight.

Rosanne
30-04-2012, 08:23
Oh dear I wrote this answer before I logged in and it has dissapeared so here goes again....poo bah!

Well montebanke does not cut the mustard as that term was not used until 1600 and today it is Saltimbanco like the circus.
We have not yet got him up on a rope.......
As debra noted he has not the garb of a medieval jurist.
Bateleur is not a type of person- it is a specific person.

Now he must be doing some sort of balancing.
Maybe it is related to Double entry bookkeeping?
After all- same place, same time as Tarot.
That must have looked like accounting hocus pocus back then, and The Visconti man is filling in a ledger of some sort. Tarot comes in debit and credit pairs and the fool does not upset the balance as he has no value.
Ho hum more musing on the horizon...
~Rosanne

Rosanne
30-04-2012, 08:52
Well well well!

It is suggested that Giovanni di Bicci de' Medici introduced this method for the Medici bank in the 14th century. He did not invent it (DE Bookkeeping) but he did Mother Church's books - that must have been a walk on a rope.{rotfl} As a young man he was not wealthy- but very clever.... He married money. By the time of Tarot he had spread DEB all around Italy.
~Rosanne

Debra
30-04-2012, 09:26
Well as a common character type (which seems more accurate than "archetype") there's the flim-flam intellectual poser with a funny hat and cane and a glass of alcohol. The best perhaps WC Fields. Called himself "professor" in the films and often had a top hat and hooked walking stick for slapstick comedy and sleight of hand. A fabulous juggler. The pretentious title of professor is akin to being a lawyer, a clever trickster.

With the hat: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZfHeDpNCEE&feature=related

and juggling to die for:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1Yjb74Jcg8&feature=related

Rosanne
30-04-2012, 10:12
Well I liked that Debra........
But look at this...

Fr.-Anglo-Latin; tallia; Fr.L.:talea (a stick); a Tally stick.

The tally stick was used as two halves once money was loaned
Credit from he gives and debit - he owes
This was accepted by French and Italian Courts right up to 1700's for those who could not read or write.
The Qur'an comes from the Arabic for accounts/ing what you owe God- your ledger of life/soul.

Bernice
30-04-2012, 17:25
So it seems that the stick-thing which appears all versions of this card (as Rosanne has rightly noted) can morph into a Balancing Pole, a long Pen, a Lawyers 'thingy', a Tally Stick, a Cigar - and a Rider Waite Wand :) - depending on location and mind-set. I can see the morph from a balancing pole to a tally-stick, both visually and metaphorically. The Noblet 'thing' remains confusing though.

Something else that is consisant is the Table. Whoever or whatever Le Bateleur represents, his table or working surface has also been retained. Wondering if lawyers or book-keepers had a street 'stand' (table) to promote their business.


Bee x

Rosanne
30-04-2012, 20:06
Hi Bee!

Really what I am curious about is how people read this card (TdM)- i.e Noblet.
Does reading cards make me an occultist? Hehehe.

Lets go to Huson.
Medieval street entertainer.
Juggler with the one principle- sleight of hand.
The archetypal trickster.
Mercury
Gertrude Moakley said the Italian tarocco title Bagatto could derive from Begatt meaning gossip in the Milanese dialect. (I have not been able to find this myself and the Milanese pattern is a cobbler not a juggler)
Mercury is the basis for Merchant.
Pratesi's Cartomancer says he is a married man -Bagattino (Huh?)
De mellor 1781 Mountebank (acceptable after 1650)
De GEBLIN says it is The Thimble-rigger.
- all other books seems to conflate Juggler with Rope walker- Fair ground man.
Kaplan seems to give description to RWS whilst using TdM.
I cannot find description of Bateleur- the French title.
Robert Place takes not the usual TdM, but a uncut sheet from the 1500 and says the (very clear) dice show that Card one is a gambler and a rogue. (a futher discussion that dice were used for divination in the Renaissance)
So where does this leave the reader of the typical TdM?
Given that I possibly believe the Visconti creator knew of a prototype Tarot I still am inclined to think of him as less a rogue and more a Profession of some sort.
Or a parody of some sort of Profession- Like the Pardoner or the Lawyer or street banker.
~Rosanne

Bernice
30-04-2012, 20:42
Hi Bee!

Really what I am curious about is how people read this card (TdM)- i.e Noblet.
Does reading cards make me an occultist? Hehehe.

........

So where does this leave the reader of the typical TdM?
Given that I possibly believe the Visconti creator knew of a prototype Tarot I still am inclined to think of him as less a rogue and more a Profession of some sort.
Or a parody of some sort of Profession- Like the Pardoner or the Lawyer or street banker.
~Rosanne

In this context it would seem that he is able to operate within civil/legal rulings, and like a double-edged sword, he can be for you or against you. But always bear in mind that he will give consideration his own reputation, for business perposes :).


How's that?

Bee x

Lumen
01-05-2012, 03:21
This is a provocative thread, and I must place my perspective here.

I do not have any historical knowledge of Tarot cards, other than its pictorial view of the ways of the past, or pre-1500, colonization period. So, in this sense, I cannot speak for Tarot and any connection to Egyptian symbols. But, since Egypt symbology has been re-interpreted to fit whoever's ideology of the time, I have to say that the symbols exist, but in a different depiction and interpretation. In fact, Egyptian symbols were taken from ancient and pre-civilization beliefs that focus on earth and astronomical elements and events (please, see the first part of Zeitgeist, 2007, available on Youtube).

Now, I've always seen Tarot as a journey of the individual through life, his/her experiences within society, and in my specific deck - Grimaud - I see the life experiences specific of a time-space connection. So, in this vein, Le Mat is the first step we make in this journey: innocent, naive, moved by instincts, and going onto the unknown. S/he then first encounter a man in his path, Le Bateleur. This is someone with an amazing self-confidence who deceives him (because you have to have this type of confidence to deceive a bunch of people). Thus, this is the first step, the first obstacle, and the first challenge for Le Mat. And Le Bateleur being the trickster, he may sell him some idea, or support in exchange of something Le Mat has.

In this sense, yes, Le Bateleur is the rapacious predator, or vampire, to suck your possessions, life, or whatever you have of value in order to set you on your path. It is a give and take guy: you give and he takes, or he takes whatever you can give in order to set you further on your path, or the illusion that you are on your path.

I think Bernice's view of the tight rope walker as a metaphor for the actions promoted by Le Bateleur speaks clearly of his questionable morality. He "helps" along your path, but deceives you while doing it - a true skilled manipulator.

On a related note, I'm very skeptical of Wikipedia as source of facts, anyone can post there, and so opinions, more than facts, are bound to be enmeshed with factual data. I do not allow my students to use it as a research source. Sources on facts come from deep and serious research, published by reliable sources who pride on exposing truth through research. Wikipedia could very well take the role of Le Bateleur...

As I'm watching at this moment the doc "Inside Job" I can only think of Le Bateuleur represented in the bankers, insurance CEOs, and all of those 1% (apropo number) who are at the top of financial decision-making while screwing 30m people. These guys are the ultimate Bateuleur - working on deception, manipulation, and twisting laws, regulation, cooking books, hiding their deals from the public in a "blatant disregard on the impact that they have" on the society and economy. And I think the lawyers that participated in this massive swindle are the tools on Bateuleur's table.

Rosanne
01-05-2012, 19:56
Hi Lumen!
There is lot to answer.
From Bottom to top perhaps......
I have always seen the Devil in that what you see as the Bateleur. The corporation without concscience etc But your analogy of the tools as the Lawyer is very descriptive.
I have a query though historically. People say yes he is a low life yet he is right next door to the Popesse. Two fakes?
I do not think of the Tarot Journey through life- I think of this in the main.....
What do I do/do not do in relation to a question.

You I take it, see him as the fairground man- the tightrope guy? It has to be an analogy for his walk- because there has never been this guy without his table, feet firmly on the ground.

~Rosanne

Bernice
01-05-2012, 20:51
Hi Rosanne & Lumen,

I think I should perhaps have been less brief in my description of this card in my previous post. Given the research Rosanne has done and the points made in this discussion I no longer see this guy as an out-and-out flim-flam man. I Recalled that in those times people were fond of punning and were also quite irreverant!

So here's my (I hope) clearer 'meaning' for him if used in readings:-

~ Skillfull at what he does as he walks a 'thin line' in executing his job/undertaking. (Like a ight-rope waker).

~ Operates within the civil/legal/moral codes of the environment/culture. (As does a rope-walker who must contend with physical laws).

~ Most likely a 'professional' who is shrewd/astute, knows how and where to make a 'killing'. Like a bird of prey. (Mental = Airey)

~ Neither good nor bad. Much would depend on accompanying cards &/or the question.

~ Someone (or some legitimate body) able to settle said civil or legal disputes. If he should turn up as an answer to "what can I do?", then the client should perhaps call in expert or experienced advice. Might have to pay for it though.


I feel more confident about this fellow now if he turns up in a spread.

..... just wondering..... which trump might signify a doctor, or better still one skilled in diagnosis?


Bee x.

ETA:
I don't see a Life Journey in the tarot trumps. I suspect that the gaming 'points' were set the way they are because of the general way that people felt about their society at that time. Clearly (as Moonbow said) this fellow wasn't very highly regarded!

Lumen
02-05-2012, 01:36
Hi Bernice and Rosanne,

I have to go with your assessment of Le Bateuleur when it comes to its creation in the past, as I don't have any knowledge of past application and who exactly Le Bateuleur symbolized then, other than the information I gather from AT.

My knowledge of history is on the general European colonization, and more specifically, a substantial knowledge on the colonization of Latin America. My specialty is symbolic anthropology, and with this knowledge I can read symbols and connect them to history, events, actions, and practices.

So, applying my knowledge, as for today, if we look at the society in general, this guy represents the shrewd business people who are out to enrich themselves at the expense of your needs. If you watch Inside Job you'll see that the guys who swindled the population out of their houses and jobs were very much those who were walking a fine line between moral and immoral, in fact, like the purse on Bateuleur's table, they were enriching themselves at the expense of the common people (Le Mat, perhaps?), and the outrageous amount of money they made out of nothing and out of deception and manipulation of the financial and political systems. Clearly, a Bateuleur experience.

Rosanne, yes, Le Diable may represent the corporations, but I think that it represents material and money, in the case of the actual financial crisis, where Le Bateuleur is enslaved by the material possessions and and enslaving others in order to increase their possessions ad infinitum (like Le Bateuleur's hat).

As for a doctor who can diagnose I think Le Pape is the most likely, as he guides you back to the right path, and perhaps Le Temperance. But this angel is more like the nurse or the treatment itself, helping one to recover. And L'Impereur could also be a doctor, albeit a stern one, very competent, or even a psychiatrist.

Now my turn: I wonder who may represent the 99% or the population that was deceived/enslaved by Bateuleur+Diable, and is now facing homelessness and material downfall? When the population entered in an agreement with financial system, they were Le Mat, but now, as the people are aware of the deception, where are they, and what card represents their plight and actual condition?

Rosanne
02-05-2012, 05:38
Ah thanks Bee........ and Lumen I think the turn this thread has taken deserves/merits a thread of it's own and I have taken a liberty in starting one.....In Talking Tarot.
Be back with more stuff on Bateleurs iconology shortly......

~Rosanne

LRichard
02-05-2012, 06:33
In Reading the Marseille Tarot, JMD remarks that Le Bateleur is suggestive of a priest celebrating mass. I really think the image may a parody of that, with the priest in outlandish street garb.