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dadsnook2000
24-09-2003, 05:07
Planets in Containment is a methodology of chart interpretation which does not require the use of signs, houses or aspects. This astrological tool utilizes a series of three-planet combinations to provide an interpretation. First, list your planets, ASC and MC in CCW (Counter-Clock Wise) order, starting at any point -- although most start their list from the ASCendant degree. List only the planets and two angles. Second, the interpretation is done using the most CW (Clock Wise) planet of each successive three-planet combination as the basis or foundation, the middle planet as the focus of how the combination will be expressed, while the most CCW planet will provide a direction for the form of expression.
***
This thread is a continuation of a thread "Different House Systems" started by M-press -- a thread which got a little off subject but which provided a deep insight into the subject of how to interpret a chart without using aspects, signs and houses. That extensive thread involved the participation of M-press, Lee and Minderwiz. I appreciate their interest and enthusiasm, and I also invite the many others who viewed that thread to join in this thread in any manner they feel appropriate.
***
A resource for this concept is a book "Planets in Containment" by John Sandbach and Roon Ballard, published Seek-It Publications, Birmingham, MI, USA with the first printing in 1980. The concept has been explored and developed in whole and in part by Dane Rudyhar, Marc Edmond Jones, Michael Meyer, Raymond Merriman, Volguine and others.
***
THE PURPOSE OF THIS THREAD is to explore the use of Planetary Containments and to compare their interpretation to what would come from a conventional chart reading using planets in signs, houses, aspects, rulerships, etc., etc. Along those lines, I again suggest that you review the thread "Different House Systems." I will be bringing over M-press's planetary listing given there and doing a comparison in this thread between my "Containment" interpretation and her actual chart as an initial means for comparing these two methodologies. Dave.

Lee
24-09-2003, 06:20
I'm sorry Dave, stupid question time, what does "CCW" mean? Is it counter-clockwise?

-- Lee :)

Minderwiz
24-09-2003, 06:57
Thanks for the brief introduction Dave.

I think my first question/issue is really whether it is free of signs! I know that you do not explicitly consider the sign placement but the whole sequence of planets at any one time is against the backdrop of the signs - the Zodiac gives the planetary positions meaning, whether they are explicitly stated or not. Indeed the planets cannot be referenced in sequence without the signs, or a method derived from them.

For all intents and purposes, everyone who is alive now has been born with Pluto between Gemini and Sagittarius For all but the last couple of years, Neptune was in the same sign or the succeeding sign (the difference is now two signs). Mercury and Venus are never far from the Sun, usually in the same sign or one of the adjacent signs, though Venus in some circumstances can be two signs away. the distribution of planets is therefore not random - there are sequences which are zodiacal in nature.

The other point relating to signs is that signs and planets are not completely divorced and separate. Even the ancients saw similarites between the characteristics of planets and the characteristics of signs. Modern psychological astrologer, (of whom I am not one) seem to regard planets and signs (and indeed houses) as being equivalent in their Astrological Alphabet. Even if we take up a traditional stance there is some 'sign' characteristic which is overlaid onto the planet.

There is therefore a sign pattern which determies the planetary sequence and this is transferred onto the natal chart by referencing the sequence to the Ascendant and Midheaven.

My point I think, is that no matter how much we declare the analysis sign free and try to ignore sign position, the sequence of planets is not sign free and there is a meaning to their sequence, derived from sign position, whether we choose to see it or not.

dadsnook2000
24-09-2003, 07:48
Hello. Note that I have edited the opening post. I had not had time to complete my writing before having to leave for a dental appointment.
*** For Minderwiz and the comment about planets not being free of signs. As I understand your remarks, I don't believe I agree. The planets have energy-expression attributes. The "original" viewable planets were associated with signs at one time in various ways, but there are now more planets and the various planet pairs that supposedly jointly rule some signs have meanings abscribed to them that are inherently different. For example, Mars is not Pluto, Jupiter is not Neptune, Saturn is not Aquarius. As for planetary order being a given for certain groups within a time span -- Neptune and Pluto -- I note that for much of the period when they were in the same sign or within thirty degrees of each other that the Sun, Moon, Mercury, Venus or combinations of two-three-all of them could be found between Neptune and Pluto. I can't quite grasp a natural planetary order relative to signs either since the signs (if we abscribe conventional planets to them) would suggest a sequence of Mars, Venus, Mercury, Moon, Sun, Mercury, Venus, Mars/Pluto, Jupiter, Saturn, Saturn/Uranus, Jupiter/Neptune. I'm not sure what order there is there except the rational of working backwards and forward from the Cancer/Leo dividing line and giving the Sun and Moon only one sign and the older planets two signs each? Again, I have to run but I'll re-read the posts when I have sufficient time and correct any of my misconceptions. I also want to start comparing M-press's Containments and convention chart -- which anyone else is also free to do. Thanks for the input. Dave.

dadsnook2000
24-09-2003, 23:21
M-press had supplied chart data in a prior post in the thread Different House Systems. That data is given here. Following this I will compare the two interpretations for her Sun.
*** Planet listing in CCW (counter clock wise) order. Asc., Saturn, Moon, Pluto, Uranus, Mars, Venus, Jupiter, Sun, Neptune, Mercury, MC, Node.
*** Following the interpretation of these using Containment theory, M-press supplied the actual chart data: Nov. 21, 1920 at 2:30 pm EET, Athens, Greece, Long. 023E42, Lat. 37N58.
*** Containment interpretation for Jupiter-SUN-Neptune (edited slightly for context). Social sensitivity, involvement and contacts support the Sun's strong self-identity and desire to integrate all components of a plan or of an organization's resources to reach an ideal or play out a message. Perhaps the venus-jupiter-sun pattern is a strong part of this. How do you seek to influence large numbers of people, M-Press? NOTE, in the previous thread where the original interpretation was provided it had been seen that there were no planets between the ASC and MC. This is not covered in Containment theory as noted in the book. My sense was that this could be interpreted "MC-ASC-Saturn or as Neptune-MC-ASC for these two angles. I had noted that this suggested that M-press might work this out as being a spokesperson or front-man for something (project, organization, movement).
*** Actual chart aspects/sign/house position: Sun is in the 8th, in Scorpio at 28 degrees -- conjunct Neptune at 0 Sag, square the Moon (4 Virgo, sixth) and nodal axis, trine ASC at 2 Aries, and sextile Pluto at 29 Virgo (near DSC degree). The Sun takes on an idealistic or artistic quality (Neptune) that strives to demonstrate a public acceptance (Moon in closing square) through an easy manner of expression (ASC trine). An intensity of purpose is projected through her work (Pluto at DSC). The Sun brings deep symbolism and personal meaning (Scorpio) out in a particualr and detailed fashion (nature of artistic expression) but with a great variety (Moon). I leave this for other to comment on. Dave.

dadsnook2000
25-09-2003, 03:10
After writing the previous posting on M-press's SUN it occured to me that the interpretation of Containments works much better when you can read them all in sequence. While this also true to a degree with reading a chart in a conventional way, it is possible to discuss (in that case) the SUN and its signs/houses/aspects as a distinct component with more understanding than doing so for a Containment. To, here is M-press's Containment interpretation taken from the other thread where it was posted as "No Aspects -- Part 4 for M-Press."
***
Relative to your planet listing I note the following: The nodes and Chiron are not noted in the reference book, and I do not utilize Chiron in any of my work -- so it's doubtful if I could shed any significant insights relative to it. We'll continue using the same format as used with Minderwiz's listing.
*** mc-ASC-saturn. Personal goals, corporate goals and public posture is expressed on a personal level -- as a spokesman for a company or institution or in a public-relations like advocation. You may, for example, find unique expression through a given discipline or interest.
*** asc-SATURN-moon. Personal experience can be utilized to structure ones daily routings, gaining efficiency and control over an enviornment that strikes you as being to changable. Others who may have impressed you in the past might provide a profile for your own mannerisms or ways of dealing with the public. The public may become a focus for your own training and studies as you tend to seek out service opportunities.
NOTE: The two previous interpretations are not to be found in the book referenced earlier in this thread as the combination of the ASC and MC is not included in any three-planet combination. Therefore I would be appreciative of any feedback on these combinations as well as the final neptune-MC-asc combo. Dave.
*** saturn-MOON-pluto. Family heritage and past training impacts the manner in which you deal with people. There may be a reluctance to "let go" in some situations -- this may have prompted a break or change in life style or family connections to faciliate or permit you in following your passions and vision.
*** moon-PLUTO-uranus. Earlier experiences in home life and in public situations may have provided a confidence level and skill set sufficient to meet some unusual challenges in your life. You tend not to live a sheltered life. You either look for freedom's or find ways to help others find freedom of one sort or another.
*** pluto-URANUS-mars. I sense flashes of cognition in this pattern. How might they occur? Large groups, institutions and/or government experiences might have prompted a social sense that seeks a form of activism. This is a heavy pattern that can symbolically show itself in very many ways. In this case I'll not try for specifics until or unless there is an opportunity to look at the complete chart or in a one-on-one dialog.
*** uranus-MARS-venus. Venus seeks to channel activities into a harmonious and pleasing venue. Is your Mars creative, active, angry, disciplined, emotional or a curious driver to understand? I suspect it may be the latter of all the possibilities mentioned. But Mars can express itself in many ways, often with tints of individuality, or at times of your own choosing.
*** *** mars-VENUS-jupiter. Venus, drawing up the Mars energy, is a seductress pattern. It suggests an internal aggressiveness that drives a creative, harmonizing, socializing and acquisitive nature that seeks to play before a crowd and fulfill a social service vision.
*** venus-JUPITER-sun. Just as we had a complementary pair in the previous 3 planet containment (Mars & Venus), we also have another pair here -- Venus & Jupiter (benifics) as well as Jupiter & Sun (the only two radiating bodies in the solar system). This is self-powering combination, optimism in overdrive. This is a center stage pattern, a before the crowd and performing on a high pattern. How is a celeberty aura to be managed to achieve goals? Perhaps when I get to the point where I summarize and synthesize these combinations it will be possible to paint some concrete examples of this pattern.
*** jupiter-SUN-neptune. This comes back to an earlier pattern where the question of how the MC and ASC worked out in terms of being a spokesman or front-man for something. Here, social sensitivity, involvement and contacts support the Sun's strong self-identity and desire to integrate all components of a plan or of an organization's resources to reach an ideal or play out a message. Perhaps the venus-jupiter-sun pattern is a strong part of this. How do you seek to influence large numbers of people, M-Press?
*** sun-NEPTUNE-mercury. Ethics and beliefs support an idealism and vision that leads to mental imaging, plans, talk and suggestions -- or internal daydreaming. Plans can be subject to constant revision, there may be trouble articulating or convincing others relative to your point of view. The question that arises is, "do you do things on a personal scale or do you have an opportunity to work in the public eye on behalf of a large orgainization of some sort?" Its easer to work on a personal level, of course, but time might permit the development of opportunities in marketing or as a press representative (examples) to speak for others, or to act as a religous spokesperson or critic.
*** neptune-MERCURY-mc. The prior combination feeds directly into this planetary containment. Will your words and plans find a clear outlet, will they manifest as public achievements?
*** mercury-MC-asc. Here we end up almost on the same vein as the one we started with. The MC is the focus, Mercury provides a mental or internal vision, and the Asc seeks to direct this energy pattern. This pattern could support a writer, a press release writer, a speaker or spokesperson, a salesman, someone who talks to others.
*** SUMMARY. Astrologers see a chart as "potential." Potential requires an enviornment that enables it to unfold. That a key question here, "What is your environment?" You have had a decade as an adult to build a resume, connections, and firm up your interest areas. The sequence of MC, ASC and Saturn suggests a highly structured or specialized "sales" mode -- be it as a representative for an organization, a free-lancer within an industry, or a person-to-person selling of your services and skills. Family connections may have served to get you started or now serve your efforts. There seems to be a "freedom" streak here that may just be personality but is more likely a result of a major break with family or tradition. In some manner, intuition and inspiration seem wrapped up in what you do. Except in sales or marketing, PR, inventive areas (I don't see this), writing, film or TV work, or counseling/psychology intuition and inspiration is not often welcome in large organizations. I suspect you operate more as a lone-wolf, consultant, or self-employed service area. The Mars factor, among other things, points to a level of creativity that is applied in perhaps several areas. Personal magnetism and close contacts are utilized to advance your goals. Optimism and confidence are high, perhaps not always with reason. The mind's plans and hopes are both helpful and distractive I suspect. Unless there is a background of formal education and skill building within the commercial/organizational world, you tend to work one-on-one or for smaller, independent groups. So, do we have a visionary, a tarot reader, a charming con-man, a sales person, a consultant, etc.? This seems to be the area of focus. The questions, if this is true, to ask next is how to utilize these many strengths to best serve you. Dave.

dadsnook2000
25-09-2003, 03:25
This segment addresses the Containment interpretation for the Moon and then a chart interpretation for M-press's Moon.
***
saturn-MOON-pluto. Family heritage and past training impacts the manner in which you deal with people. There may be a reluctance to "let go" in some situations -- this may have prompted a break or change in life style or family connections to faciliate or permit you in following your passions and vision.
***
Chart interpretation for the Moon:
NOTE, I have edited this based on M-press reporting that she gave an incorrect birth time -- the adjusted time (4:30 pm) moves the Moon ahead a degree and moves the Moon back into the fifth house. This changes the interpretation quite a bit.
Moon is in Virgo, 5th house, conjunct the South Node, square the Scorpio Sun in the 7th and Neptune (Sag) in the 7th. Note that the Sun sextiles the MC degree. Moon conjunct the South Node suggests a need to deal with past life or early development issues relating to creative training, education environment, etc. relative to 5th house symbolism. This may relate to an authority figure (square Sun) or some influence of a religous or theatrical/arts oriented person. You had your own ideas and now seek to express them clearly, differentiating yourself from earlier influences or associations. Moon rules the 3rd while yielding the 4th house to the Sun -- hence the creative urge has to be communicated and demonstrative of your individual core values. The conflict is further suggested by the Sun, Neptune and Mercury being in the 4th house of the Moon (using derivitive house symbology) and the charts 7th house (relationships, open adversaries) which suggests a strong early home or training influence. Dave.

Minderwiz
25-09-2003, 07:20
Hi Dave,

I hope the dental visit was not to painful.

I must admit that my post on the signs/containment was something of a top of my head post, and I didn't really make myself clear in places (probably most LOL) so I'll try and turn it into a more measured post - though it may be later on tomorrow before I can escape the clutches of work for a bit.

dadsnook2000
25-09-2003, 07:52
We will both probably have to make haste more slowly. This is a complicated subject for many -- we had over 260 posts on the original thread and are already in the 40's here -- so there are a lot of people following this even if they are not joining in. My current quandry is about the manner in which I can better compare the "whole sense" of the Containment picture to the conventional chart interpretation. It's like comparing mid-points to a regular chart -- you get the same ultimate picture but the small groups/aspects of planets/etc. are all different from each other. We'll try. Dave.

M-Press
26-09-2003, 02:48
Hi there!
dealing with the last of Mercury retro, I was not aware you started this thread!

I started reading the "no signs" part between the two of you, and it is all very fascinating... Yes, a bit hard to follow, i'm sure I'm not the only one who feels it's a "advanced" class!

I read quickly(gotta run-some wine thing), and I saw Moon in the 6th?

i became suspicious!
Thjere is a mistake here...
I was born on Nov 21, 1970 (and not 1920!!!!-but this maybe only a typo mistake, Dave?) Place, the same...sunny Greece...

but, MY MISTAKE is, that I wrote time 14:30, but it's actually 4:30pm, which makes it 16:30...!
I'm so sorry for this! I feel horrible! all this time and energy to talk about the "moved" moon!

I feel honoured and a bit embarrsed too to be the subject of this talk, but this will go under "serendipitous" events in which I put myself into, so I might as well enjoy it!!!!

Please let me know if you need anymore specific feedback from me... i will follow digesting for a while...

Thanks?sharing your knowledge is the best gift! i would have never found this subject anywhere else!

dadsnook2000
27-09-2003, 02:50
Hello All. The corrected birth time chart for M-press has an interesting configuration that we may want to discuss and evaluate. It raises a question of the relative strength of planets versus rulerships. Consider: Pluto sextiles the Sun and Neptune, and trines the MC. Pluto has modern-day rulership over the DSC angle. Does the intensity of expressing M-press's identity focus on both the career/public standing aspects of her life (MC) or on the relationship aspects? Consider: Jupiter is opposite the ASC, on the DSC, and widely conjunct Venus. Since these are Jupiter's only primary aspects, does Jupiter control the expression of M-press's personality via optimism and seeking expansive contacts with others? Planet Power or Rulership Power. Of course, the answer for/by M-press may be different for someone else. But, this is an interesting side light of the chart. Dave.

M-Press
27-09-2003, 17:34
Hi Dave!
I really like the way you ask questions, the little places you find interesting... :-)

There is something I don't understand here..." strength of planets versus rulerships."
What do you mean by that?
Are you comparing what Jupiter does vs what Pluto does? meaning which of them is over-powering?
Or/and do you call ruler planet, Pluto, since i'm a Scorp, and Pluto rules scorps?

As "objectively" as I can answer, both my 6th and 7th house, are very intense, and all i do is deal with both of them!

Minderwiz
28-09-2003, 02:39
I posted a thread earlier on the doubts I had about ‘sign’ free readings using planetary containment. It was rather a rushed job and a little confused, so I’ve taken some time and reflected on the issue. Although the discussion has moved on a little from that point and the issue of rulerships is one I'd also like to see developed, I feel that I do need to address the issue of reading without signs.

Let me start with a planetary ‘run’ – Jupiter, Mars, Venus. The first question is can these planets have meaning without sign. The answer is yes the can. To use some simple key words, Jupiter is personal expansion and growth, Mars is self assertiveness and drive and Venus is a desire for harmony, relationships and material well being. There are other key words that can be used but I will keep to three. Growth, Assertion and Harmony. Is it possible to place a meaning on the run? Yes it is. I could argue that here we have a situation where the self assertion is based on the need for personal growth and is aimed at achieving harmony with others and with the universe. Again there are other interpretations that could be put on this run. I made no reference to the Sandbach and Ballard book in drawing up this interpretation but it seems to make some sense, so I will work with it.

My first question is, will the reading be improved if I took into account the signs of the planets. Clearly a lot of possible combinations exist but I will look briefly at two. The first is, Jupiter in Pisces, Mars in Aries, Venus in Taurus. All three planets are in signs they rule. They are therefore strong and traditionally, they will act nobly. These placings suggest that the potential shown in the run will be achieved and most likely fully realised. It is unlikely that the three planets will ‘get in each others way’ the most adverse circumstance being a semi-square between Jupiter and Venus (a sextile is, of course, more likely). Nevertheless knowing the signs suggests that the probabilities strongly favour achievement.

Consider an alternative, Jupiter in Virgo, Mars in Libra and Venus in Scorpio. All three planets are now in detriment and relatively weak, though there is a mutual reception between Mars and Venus. These two might help each other but if Venus has a semi-square to Jupiter or possibly even a sextile we may have over indulgence and an attempt to lead the good life rather than achieve that harmony. The potential may still be realised, indeed it is more likely than not but the way may not be so easy and the potential may only be partially realised.

Knowing the signs therefore gives additional meaning to the reading. However it could well be argued that the point is more that a sign free reading has occurred, even if it is not as good as using the signs explicitly. So I will in the next post turn my attention to whether the reading is fully sign free.

Minderwiz
28-09-2003, 03:00
The second and main issue is whether the reading, even without stating the signs is ‘sign free’. This can be addressed by asking where the run comes from – it is taken from a natal chart (or I suppose any chart). How is it shown in the natal chart? - as planets plotted in signs. Indeed if we think about it there is no existence to the run in any sense other than by reference to the signs.

More particularly the run exists only as observed from Earth against the backcloth of the Zodiac – from any other standpoint in the solar system the run does not exist at all. The run is therefore a product of the zodiac, whether it is explicitly referred to or not. Indeed if we consider the cycles of the planets around the zodiac, as seen from Earth, they are rather like a watch with ten hands. The Moon measures monthly cycles, the Mercury, Venus and the Sun annual cycles, Mars two year cycles, Jupiter 12 year cycles and Saturn 29 year cycles. Uranus’ cycle marks the human life and those of Neptune and Pluto the cycles of human nations. It is quite possible therefore that from the sequence of planets alone the date of an event, such as a birth can be deduced. The planetary run contains the stamp of the date it happened. If the signs can be worked out from the sequence then the sequence is not ‘sign free’.

Planetary containment also makes use of the Ascendant and the MC. What are these but points in the Zodiac. The Ascendant may say something about how I project myself to the world, what my general health is like or something about me as a person. But what that something is depends entirely on the Zodiac point it occupies. The same holds for the MC.

These two points mark delineate the four cardinal points of the chart and therefore the houses. Virtually every (though not all) house system uses the Ascendant as its starting point – the potential of life and the MC as the zenith of life. Planetary containment thus not only references the signs in order to convey meaning, it also acknowledges the houses as well.

Does this invalidate the use of planetary containment. I’m not a good enough Astrologer to answer that fully but my feeling is that the answer is no. Planetary containment may well provide some way of looking at the chart which allows the Astrologer to tease further meaning from it. It adds to the armoury of the Astrologer but it is not independent of signs or houses.

Minderwiz
28-09-2003, 04:50
Sorry to post three consecutive replies – but if I leave it much later I won't be able to respond to the interesting issues raised by Dave over rulerships (well at least till next week :( )

I’m not quite sure what is meant by relative strength of planets versus rulerships – the system of rulerships is part of the greater system of essential dignities and this is the only system I’m aware of that measures the essential strength of planets. Essential dignity might ‘conflict’ with accidental dignity, for example Mercury in Virgo (essentially strong) but retrograde (accidentally weak) or, as in M-Press’ case Saturn peregrine (essentially weak) but Angular in the first (Accidentally strong) and also retrograde (Accidentally weak).

However there are real issues over sign and house rulership which Dave raises and one which an Astrologer needs to consider in chart interpretation. I’m not sure whether there is ‘an answer’ but I hope the following comments give some food for further discussion.

Taking M-Press’ chart, I note that Saturn is just over half a degree from the Ascendant and in the first house. I know of some Astrologers who would say that Saturn, not Venus rules the Ascendant in this case and M-Press might well consider if that improves the reading of her chart. Saturn is also in opposition to Jupiter and Venus both in Scorpio. So as well as the tension between Saturn and Venus over who rules the Ascendant, we have a tension directly between the two – a sort of tug of war over the rulership of M-Press’ expression of herself in the world. Saturn also rules the MC (in Capricorn) so if we were to allow Saturn as the Ascendant ruler we might get a greater correlation between M-press personal expression and her role in society (usually career). While Venus is relatively weak in Scorpio, Jupiter does have some essential dignity so the Saturn/Jupiter opposition also raises some interesting issues as to how the pull between the need to expand in relationships and partnerships can be reconciled with the a possible restricted or limited or fearful self expression (if we allow the Ascendant victory to Saturn). Saturn is also the only planet in the Eastern hemisphere, and the handle to a rather narrow bucket. Saturn therefore is an important focal planet in any case.

The issue of Pluto for me is easily dealt with because I keep to traditional rulerships – so Pluto does not rule the seventh and its influence will be through the aspects it makes and which Dave outlines. It may give some slightly greater intensity to a Mars ruled seventh as it makes a contribution to the house. As Dave says, most ‘modern’ Astrologers assign Scorpio to Pluto so if we accept that, then relationships will be definitely more intense and also will be a driving force behind career and also add an intensity to M-Press’s seventh House Sun. A Mars rulership of the seventh would tend to suggest that M-Press likes to play an assertive role in relationships, that Mars is weak in Scorpio and is also in the sixth, might suggest that this requires a little bit more effort to achieve.

Mars and Venus are in mutual reception, so a Mars rulership of the seventh eases Venus predicament a little and Venus rulership of the sixth similarly provides a little relief to Mars. What is more these two (on traditional rulerships) disposit the rest, so these two could be seen as the most important pair in the chart.

It will be interesting to see other points of view on this but I think as Dave implies, the answer for an individual Astrologer is likely to be what works best in producing accurate readings.

dadsnook2000
28-09-2003, 07:53
First of all, thanks Minderwiz for your extensive comments. This is just the sort of thing that is often missing from Internet postings -- a solid discussion.
*** Do signs add to a conventional astrological chart interpretation? Yes. Are they absolutely necessary? No. Are there conventional and well-used approaches that do not require signs? Yes, mid-points for one. I don't consider Containments as yet being mid-stream -- or even well known.
*** Planets plotted against the zodiac -- this I'd like to discuss. As for as Planetary Containment goes, the zodiac is not a factor! The key concept here is the order in which a planet/body rises over the horizion and comes into "view." Planets above the horizon have always been given more "strength" than planets below the horizon. As I noted in a previous post, we can start to get a feel for the importance of this if we picture ourselves as just being born with the Moon just coming over the eastern horizon. We have a strong anxiety, a tidal urge of responses and emotions that prompts us to react quite quickly to external stimuli -- if Moon symbology is accurate. An hour or so later old Saturn wanders up into view. Our short life's experience now seems to imprint us with a damping of our emotions. We've been here for an hour and everything is OK, so lets experience what this new-found sense of calm or restraint is. A long part of the daily cycle goes by and suddenly, Sun and Mars pop over the horizon together. Out with the calmness, there is a need to place myself into this world, to be me. I'll cry and act out, I'll find out how to impact the level and type of attention I'm getting. This little story merely intends to make the point that Containments, IMHO, are about the order of rising and not about their place in the zodiac. In this case, signs are irrelevant.
*** Rulerships. I had intended my comment on this area to be quite localized, limited to whether Mars or Pluto (as ruler of the 7th angle and sign) or Jupiter would have the most impact on how M-press expressed and projected through the symbology of her 7th angle. Its hard to seperate the effect of opposing Saturn on the ASC. Jupiter opposed Saturn, by itself, suggests a fluctuation between self-esteem and self-doubt; approval can be gained by taking on challenges. So, the question here is, "Will the planetary energies outweigh the rulership imposition of a Mars or Pluto influence? This is, again, a localized assessment and is not intended to be a general "rulership" discussion.
*** Let's briefly discuss chart interpretation by three methods: Conventional planet/sign/house/aspect methods, Containments, and Mid-points. As a general rule, each component or combination within the given methodology will paint a portion of the overall personal/potential picture -- BUT, no one portion of any one of the three methodologies is likely to be similar to one of the other methodologies. It is only in the total assessment that each method uses that a similar "whole" picture emerges. For me, the wonder is that almost any approach to astrology can work as long it has integrity within itself. Isn't that amazing?
*** So, do we want to do another Containment exercise? Does M-press need more chart interpretation or do we want to pursue the Containment issues? Do we want to take on another subject? Note that our threads do seem to attract a lot of silent viewers so I know we are providing a good informational service to those in the earlier stages of their astrological studies. I just wish they weren't so shy. One of these times I would like to explore viewing certain Planetary Pairs through Phase Angles -- another form of astrology without signs and houses. I use thsi methodology as a short-cut view prior to doing conventional chart readings. Dave.

Minderwiz
28-09-2003, 08:47
Thanks for the speedy response Dave,

I'll have to think about your points a little before I can come back - though I think we might hit a fair degree of agreement on a number of these - even if its only that there are more than one way to read a chart!

I did try to make some of my comments on rulerships specific to M-Press' chart, though I wasn't sure from your post how wide you were pitching the point.

M-Press
29-09-2003, 05:29
Hi guys!

Thank you both for all this, both on the personal and the learning level. I find it all very interesting, and will try to see what "comes out":

- i find the containment method very useful, especially when one has no hour of birth. It's a way to get more out of what you have, with out having it all.

- I found both analysis accurate, and i feel that "the more, the merier". meaning, I got from each things that I didn't get from the other, and in both cases there was important stuff.

-shape of chart: My chart has this dreary shape, as M mentions 'a narrow backet", with Saturn using it as a kite!
As someone who experiences this chart from first hand, I can say that Saturn there is BIG! He's not the center (taurus in ASC is big too), but saturn just makes every thing a LOT of work for me, even the pleasurable things. It's tuff, and lately i'm getting a bit tired of it (I need a break form Jupi), and hopefully, one will come... (yes, optimistic...but fluctuation between self-esteem and self-doubt.)
NOW, this part of the Saturn influence did not show as much in the contaiments (and please lemmeno if you think it did...)

SO, as Dave wrote "no one portion of any one of the three methodologies is likely to be similar to one of the other methodologies. It is only in the total assessment that each method uses that a similar "whole" picture emerges."

- My question on this is, which method is best, to know what the person is like?
Astrology is first and most about self-knowledge, but we use it to know and understand others...
So, did you feel you knew what I'm about from the Containments?
Myself, i felt that some "hiddedn" aspects of me were revealed, or of the kind that I never had a name for, for example :
"*** sun-NEPTUNE-mercury. Ethics and beliefs support an idealism and vision that leads to mental imaging, plans, talk and suggestions -- or internal daydreaming. Plans can be subject to constant revision".
I learned a lot form that, but I wasn't sure all the time that we were talking about me...

On the other hand, when we do a regular chart, which planet in which sign, and so on, i get immediatelyt the "recipie", and the flavor of the person (although I can never imagine how this person will make me feel, (well ,maybe with more study...)
The whole thing actually reminds me of color modes: for example, i totally get CMYK (cyan, magents, yellow, black), and know what to mix to get any color, but in RGB (red, green, blue) mode??? forget it!
Now, they both work, and both are accurate, but both come from "different places", and communicate differently the same info...

So, what am I saying?
well, that all this is great, and I'm totally captivated from it all!

We can definitely move on to another excersice/chart... maybe someone famous? this way we can all "know the material"? Just a suggestion...

Last note: Thank you again. I feel so priviledged to have met you here... :)

dadsnook2000
29-09-2003, 11:22
Well, a lot of comments and information.
1) Saturn: Saturn on the ASC is a big deal. For many it tends towards seriousness, but with an opposition it tends to forms of fluctuation. As far as the Containments go, Saturn plays no role in the Venus-Jupiter-Sun combination. Saturn is part of the Asc-Saturn-Moon combination -- now, this is interesting. The Asc degree is a result of birth timing and of declination and of local latitude. In your case, although Saturn appears to be very close to the ASC degree, it actually rises some 22 minutes after birth, about 6 degrees of zodiac rising later. So, the Containment combination is definitely ASC-Saturn-Moon and not Sat-Asc-Moon. The Ascendant meaning is the foundation for how Saturn expresses itself, and the Moon seeks to direct the means of expression -- this translates (using both conventional and containment factors) into "the fixed nature of the basic personality experiences some pain in coping with fluctuating moods and views. This is contrary to the Saturn influence, so over time there is likely to be a sense of conservatism that is developed to limit the possibility and scope of change. Yet this is often thwarted by the perception of changing demands from the external world. As a result, the personality and its coping structures are continually being challenged. In its own way this does eventually bring a sense of control as the personality seeks to also shape the environment, finding ways to channel its approach to her (Internet) so as to be less affected by changes on a minute to minute basis." That interpretation may be how an astrologer would use/blend these two particular techniques into a hopefully helpful statement.
2) Your question about which method is best is easily answered. Whatever methods the astrologer uses, and uses well, can be blended to aid in helping someone understand themselves. There is no single best method. Almost every astrologer with some experience uses their own "tool box" of insights and methods.
3) Sun-Neptune-Mercury: This containment pattern speaks for itself but the conventional chart link OF Mercury to the other two planetS DOESN'T EXIST. Only you can consider that and decide if it really does work. We can vary the words used to carry the symbology. Neptune can represent a wavering, indecision, a softness in how an issue is experienced, a dreaminess, lack of clarity or firmness. If we combine that with the Sun, your ability to integrate the several aspects of your personality and experiences can be diluted, making it hard for Mercury to perceive and categorize a situation -- resulting in wavering decisions, a lack of focus, a difusion of goals, etc. This actually fits with and supports the Asc-Saturn-Moon Containment pattern. Again, I state that while each component of either methodology will not be the same, the total picture that emerges is much the same. The picture becomes more robust and helpful when we combine methodologies.
4) We can indeed pick a well known personality and then apply several/many methodologies to gain better insights into the practice of astrology. Any suggestions are welcome. Dave. PS, I made a small edit to the post as indicated by the capital letters in section three. Haste makes for poor grammer.

M-Press
29-09-2003, 21:04
So much to "drink" from you!!!!

Dave wrote:
"As a result, the personality and its coping structures are continually being challenged. In its own way this does eventually bring a sense of control as the personality seeks to also shape the environment, finding ways to channel its approach to her (Internet) so as to be less affected by changes on a minute to minute basis."

Please tell me one thing: will things eventually change????? did you mean by "(Internet)" what I think you did???

NEXT CASE:
I found the bithdates and time of quite a few: (www.astrodatabank.com)

I thougth of Madonna, Ben Affleck, and my favorite, and less kitchy is...Martha Stewart!
Of course, anyone else is good for me...

I must prepare now for an important meeting/closing of contract, that (maybe) will eventually change things....
I'll be back with planetary sequences for Martha, unless you feel like digging into some politician or scientist, or a more glam celebrity...

Looking forward to my "detachment" from this! :)

M-Press
30-09-2003, 21:23
Suddenly, I thought: in't it better if we DON'T know who the person is?
So:

ASC
Neptune
Saturn
Moon
Jupiter
Mars
Uranus
Venus
MC
Mercury
Sun

Now, all I need, is to forget!!!!!

Other than that, everything else-fine with me!

dadsnook2000
02-10-2003, 03:25
Hi M-press. The "Internet" reference was to indicate one example of how you might structure incomming demands and contacts in your daily business world so as to limit fluctuations and outside-the-box demands -- all to make it easy to gain both control and focus.
*** We've had a very large number of non-participating viewers to this thread, more than most threads achieve. That tells me that there is a lot of interest in basic astrology by people who may be too shy to enter into this types of give-and-take discussion. It would probably be best to develop another format that enabled more participation and yet still offered ways to share deeper insights and practices. I'm going to ask Minderwiz if he wants to participate in such a site -- perhaps we'll strive to continue the same bantering-yet-serious style put into place within this thread. My sense is that taking a chart of a famous person such as Martha Stewart, for which Astrodatabank.com provides both a chart and a biography, would enable us to first explore basic chart reading techniques: Sun-Moon-Asc., strong aspect patterns, chart shaping, the planets and their house rulerships one-by-one, mid-points, and other exploration techniques. We'd put together some guidelines -- we don't want to be inundated by copies of "other people's" interpretations but we do want to explore a component at a time. We'll talk about this over the next few days with the Thread Moderator's and see if they want to play a role. Dave.

M-Press
02-10-2003, 05:11
I agree with you Dave...
Although among "my people" I'm considered soemone who knows the stars, here i felt a total newborn!
I learned a lot, but ther were also many thing I felt I needed the basics...
The beauty of asrtology is that you can know a lot, but still not know some other things...
I only heard of the North Node, just last year , for example!

I find your suggestion great... yes, to prob e in to someone famous, everybody knows them, we learn... basics and beyond...

I really enjoy this, and I hope to able to keep spending plenty time in it!

Thank you!

ps: if we start a new thread on this, could you please pm me? (if you remember?) I'm getting into a new project, and only incoming emails will get me "out"!!!