View Full Version : The Path of The Emperor
Neophyte
30-09-2003, 02:50
In the book of Thoth, Crowley states that the Emperor's power is derived from Chokmah and brought to Tipareth, yet on his diagram in the back of the very same book, he fills in the Star on this path. He gives the path from Sephiroth 7 to 9 as the path of the Emperor, which is in conformity with Crowley's switching of the star, and attributing of Tzaddi to the Emperor.
My question is why did Crowley make the statement about the power derived from Chokmah? Surely he is aware of the path he himself has given the Emperor, so what is his reasoning of writing this? Is there a mystery contained within, or is it to confuse readers, or possibly test them?? Any thoughts?
bagheera444
04-10-2003, 23:23
Greetings hope you are well .
the use of qabalah in explaining where and how energies manifest thruout the tree is very useful in understanding tarot .
Crowley as most of us have found seems more than adept at manipulating these energies to suit some of his ideas .
I think to help in putting this in perspective the sefiroth of chockmah has a quality amongst others of the father and the infinte wisdom this implies ,the paternal power. the creative word.Now adding this to what you know about the nature of the emperor and you can see how the emporer (the king) has attributes of the father (chokmah).
Remember a force that emanates in one place higher up in the tree can show up elsewhere on a lower arc as it were .
these symbols have a way of contradicting themselves so its a matter of knowing how a SYMBOL can be positive on one level but the same symbol on another plane can alter becoming negative .
the confusion arrives in our view when trying to be in 2 places at once .
Also the emperor only changes some attributes when the TZaddi -HE riddle is applied (roman numerals)card numbers remain same but thelemic interprtation (letters-signs and values )move.
.At the point of Crowley, when he writes of the emperor in the book of thoth.He is talking i think about the function of the emperor .and not including his thelemic take at this time, merely expanding on what the card is, for us who want to know somthing of the nature of this aspect ,
He is talking about the characteristics of the emperor- fatherly ,patrnal, pahaps talking about the emperor in its most exalted sense hence refering to chockmah to expain what the emperors position iswhen exercising his benovelence upon his son etc.Even thou remember the card placement as you mentioned is between yesod and netzach.
so to conclude hope this makes sense the "old" fellow sitting cross legged is a male energy he is a ruler, fatherly (chkmh energies) but disguised .the energy is martian (aries ) of the spring the emperor path connects 7 venus netzach victory with 9 moon yesod foundation .he uses of the energy of spring and applies its energy to setting foundations establisng order
regards Bagheera
Neophyte
07-10-2003, 07:31
Thank you for your response. It opened up a few ideas in my mind that now have the card making a little more sense. I think it is interesting, how if the Emperor is placed in either path, he seems to fit. This was one of my initial confusions about the card, but after what you said, it seems as though my confusion about the card was the solution itself...
The whole subject of the attribution of The Emperor/Tzaddi and The Star/Heh is very confusing. From the evidence presented in The Book of Thoth it hard to figure out what is going on.
The source of the switch is one particular verse in The Book of the Law.
1:57... All these old letters of my Book are aright ; but (Tzaddi) is not the Star....
Ok, fine. But Crowley's explanation in The Book of Thoth muddies the water completely. On pages 8-11 & 38-40 Crowley gives his explanation of the switch. But then the problems start.
On p.78 in his description of The Emperor, Crowley describes the card as if it were in it's old place on the Tree of Life, between Chockmah and Tiphareth in complete contradiction to the diagrams in the book.
On p.255 Crowley gives the divinatory meanings for The Emperor but the little prose-poem above it corresponds to The Star. The divinatory meaning for The Star on p.259 is the exact opposite. The Emperor's prose poem is connected with The Star's divinatory meanings.
On p.278 there's a strange error in the correspondence table. The Emperor is given the astrological attribution of Aquarius and The Star is given as Aries. Huh ? The contradicts both the text of the book and the actual cards.
What was Crowley up to when he wrote this book ? I can think of three possible explanations but there may be more.
1) Crowley was unsure/confused about the Emperor/Tzaddi - Star/Heh switch.
2) The Book of Thoth was just badly edited/checked for mistakes before publishing.
3) Crowley is hinting at something completely different. The apparent confusion in the attributions is designed to draw our attention to it.
There are a few examples in the Book of Thoth where card description etc. do not match the deck. That makes me think that perhaps much of his ideas were being developed as the book was being written/cards being painted, rather than the ideas had existed for a long time, before he got the chance/desire to make the project real.
Does anyone know off hand the timetime for the writting of the Book of Thoth, in comparison to the receiving of the Book of Law. I realise the creation took years, but still there could be plenty of opportunity for "seat of your pants" editing I guess. Perhaps he wrote certain parts of the book, and didn't edit them after deciding that exchanging Tzaddi and Heh was the solution.
I found this quote from "The Law Is for All" which I am assuming is a later publication than "The Book of Law" and so the confusion has been weeded out by then... (Or am I way off base here?)
Tzaddi is the letter of the Emperor, the Trump IV, and He is the Star, the Trump XVII. Aquarius and Aries are therefore counterchanged, revolving on the pivot of Pisces, just as in the Trumps VIII and XI, Leo and Libra, do about Virgo. This last revelation makes our Tarot attributions sublimey, perfectly, flawlessly symmetrical.
Does anyone know off hand the timetime for the writting of the Book of Thoth, in comparison to the receiving of the Book of Law.
Crowley wrote the Book of Thoth much later in life - between the years of 1938-43. In contrast he received the Book of the Law in 1904, but it is widely reported that it took him some years to figure out which atu, if "tzaddi is not the star", should be in its place. I have no idea when he figured this out, though - maybe someone does?
Either way, I too am perplexed by the mix-up in the BOT. Given that this change was hailed as something of a revelation, as bringing a symmetry to the relation of the zodiac with the tarot, one cannot countenance the idea that it would have slipped his mind when writing the descriptions of these cards. Given the diligence which is evident in his other works it seems highly out of character. To my mind, then, there are only two possible explanations: either the mix-up is deliberate (but then I find this equally confusing), or there were amendments by the publisher, accidental or otherwise.
Crowley wrote the Book of Thoth much later in life - between the years of 1938-43. In contrast he received the Book of the Law in 1904, but it is widely reported that it took him some years to figure out which atu, if "tzaddi is not the star", should be in its place. I have no idea when he figured this out, though - maybe someone does?
Well, Crowley was experimenting with the new attribution as early as 1923. In a diary entry for the 7th September 1923 Crowley tries to find a correspondence between the letters of his magical motto, TO MEGA THERION, and the Tarot trumps. Next to one of the letters he wrote 'IV or XVII', which suggests that he was uncertain about the attribution at that time and was using The Emperor and The Star on an either/or basis in his calculations.
I find this quote from one of Harris's letters quite interesting as well.
Have you seen that all the Sephiroths in the Index are spelled wrong, at least nearly all--an awful bother if they get printed like that. Also I don't feel you have made it clear about Tzaddi--The Emperor. Can't you have a diagram? I have been reading your book to Ann Christie in the evenings & altho she is very interested she could not understand your book and I am not sure I did in the end. It will be a point about which there will be the most argument. Is there any reason for the 2 loops except secrecy? Surely! & if not why not undo the loop & is the Emperor to be numbered 17 or IV or 4 or 17 ditto Star also Strength XI and Justice VIII. I expect I have still got it all wrong but if I have, you must be clearer because I am only just below sub-normal intelligence. A bientot
Frieda Harris
I have noticed that if you lay out the Tarot trumps as indicated in The Book of the Law, chp.3 verse 73, The Emperor and The Star pair up together. I don't know if that has any deeper significance or not.
The switch of the cards on the Tree of Life makes sense to me from a Thelemic perspective. In one way it symbolises the goddess Nuit taking the place of the patriarchal, authoritarian demiurge Jehovah, symbolised by The Emperor. And as Crowley points out (somewhere?) it brings together the 3 mothers on the Tree of Life. (It does disturb the Alchemical trinity though. But with the letter Heh being the feminine component of IHVH it seems to fit perfectly.)
Meanwhile The Emperor on the path between Yesod and Netzach is a symbol of self discipline and the powers of logic and reason needed to deal safely with the subconscious and the imagination. Quite apt when you consider how many people on the occult path fall into the pit of self delusion and fantasy.
I find this quote from Crowley's qabalistic fairy tale, The Wake World, printed (1907) in Konx Om Pax interesting. While the passage is attributed to the path of Tzaddi and The Star it seems to suggest that, even at this early date, Crowley thought The Star would be better placed somewhere on the Lightning Flash 777. And that's where it's ended up.
Then there was another passage which was really too secret for anything; all I shall tell you is, there was the most beautiful Goddess that ever was, and she was washing herself in a river of dew. If you ask her what she is doing, she says: "I'm making thunderbolts." It was only starlight, and yet one could see quite clearly, so don't think I'm making a mistake.
Well, Crowley was experimenting with the new attribution as early as 1923. . . . Next to one of the letters he wrote 'IV or XVII', which suggests that he was uncertain about the attribution at that time and was using The Emperor and The Star on an either/or basis in his calculations.
I took part in a debate on TarotL concerning this whole topic. This is a summary of the material I found. At the end is a list of statements that contradict the majority of the findings.
CROWLEY’s EMPEROR-STAR COUNTERCHANGE
evidence gathered by Mary K. Greer
Here is all the evidence I have found in The Book of Thoth regarding Crowley’s intention for the Emperor-Star counterchange.
1) Under the heading: “The Roman Numbers of the Trumps,” p. 39-40. [IV=Emperor=Aries]
“The card called Adjustment is marked VIII. The card called Lust is marked XI. To maintain the natural sequence, Lust must be attributed to Libra, and Adjustment to Leo. This is evidently wrong, because the card called Adjustment actually shows a woman with sword and scales, while the card called Lust shows a woman and a lion.
“It was quite impossible to understand why this reversal should have taken place until the events of March and April, 1904, which are recounted in detail in “The Equinox of the Gods”. One need here give only one quotation; “All these old letters of my Book are aright; but [tzaddi] is not the Star”. (AL. I. 57.) . . . The card which must be exchanged for “The Star” is “The Emperor,” who bears the number IV, which signifies Power, Authority, Law, and is attributed to the sign Aries. This proves very satisfactory.”
2) Written on the mats framing the cards by Frieda Harris. [IV=Emperor=Tzaddi=Aries; XVII=Star=Hé=Aquarius]
Note letter from Frieda Harris to Crowley, September 18, 1939(?):
“I don't feel you have made it clear about Tzaddi--The Emperor. Can't you have a diagram? I have been reading your book to Ann Christie in the evenings & altho she is very interested she could not understand your book and I am not sure I did in the end. It will be a point about which there will be the most argument. Is there any reason for the 2 loops except secrecy? Surely! & if not why not undo the loop & is the Emperor to be numbered 17 or IV or 4 or 17 ditto Star also Strength XI and Justice VIII. I expect I have still got it all wrong but if I have, you must be clearer because I am only just below sub-normal intelligence.”
3) Crowley’s own words describing individual cards (see card descriptions) [IV=Emperor=Tzaddi=Aries; XVII=Star=Hé=Aquarius]
"IV. Emperor - This card is attributed to the letter Tzaddi, and it refers to the sign of Aries." p.77
"XVII. The Star - "This card is attributed to the letter Hé, as has been explained elsewhere. It refers to the Zodiacal sign of Aquarius." p. 109.
4) On the Tree of Life+Tarot diagram on page 268 where [Path 28=IV=Emperor=Tzaddi=Aries;
Path 15=XVII=Star=Hé=Aquarius]:
Path 15 (Chokmah to Tiphareth) is labeled “Hé-Aquarius-Star-XVII”
Path 28 (Netzach to Yesod) is labeled “Tzaddi-Aries-Emperor-IV”
5) Concerning the "Double Loop" on p. 10 [Text: Emperor=Aries; Star=Aquarius. Diagram: IV=Aries; XVII=Aquarius]
Crowley writes: “’The Star’ is referred to Aquarius in the Zodiac, and ‘The Emperor’ to Aries. Now Aries [Emperor] and Aquarius [Star] are on each side of Pisces, just as Leo and Libra are on each side of Virgo; that is to say, the correction in the _Book of the Law_ gives a perfect symmetry in the zodiacal attribution,” p. 11. [Note that he is ONLY talking about the zodiacal attributions and not about Hebrew letters or paths.]
The “Double Loop” diagram shows only IV-Aries; and XVII-Aquarius.
6) On “The Four Scales of Color” chart, p. 279 [Path 28=color scarlet (Aries); Path15=color violet (Aquarius)]
5th item = “28. – Scarlet – Red – Brilliant Flame – Glowing Red”
18th item = “15. – Violet – Sky Blue – Bluish Mauve – White,tinged Purple”
7) On “The Essential Dignities of the Planets” chart, p.284 [Path 28=Aries; Path 15=Aquarius]
[1st item in chart] Exaltation=Sun19° - Ruler=Mars – Sign=Aries – 28
[11th item in the chart] Exaltation=Neptune 19° - Ruler=Saturn – Sign=Aquarius - 15
8) “The Atu: Mnemonics,” p. 219 lists the cards by Hebrew letter, but follows the Tarot de Marseilles numerical order (the Fool is first). [5th item=Tzaddi=Emperor; 18th item)=Hé=Star]
The Emperor is in position IV (5th card): [Tzaddi] “Sire and inceptor, Emperor and King / Of all things mortal, hail Him lord of Spring” [Note: Spring = Aries]
The Star is in position XVII (18th card): [Hé] “Nuit, our Lady f the Stars! Event / is all Thy play, sublime Experiment!”
The Hebrew letters are NOT in the correct order. There is no listing in BoT that puts the letters&cards in “correct” Hebrew order.
9) In “The Vital Triads” list, p. 287 (IV=Emperor; XVII=Star)
The Three Goddesses: XVII = The Mother [Star] (along with: II=The Virgin; III=The Wife)
The Three Demiurges: IV = The Ruler [Emperor] (along with: X=The All Father 3 in 1; V=The Son (Priest))
10) We also have evidence in the catalog, written by Frieda Harris, dated July 1, 1942, for an exhibition of the paintings at the Berkeley Galleries, London:
“Item 5 IV. The Emperor. Aries. Tzaddi”
“Item 18 XVII. The Star. Aquarius. Daleth*”
*This is obviously an error and should read Hé– just as both Adjustment and Lust are given the Hebrew letter Teth, whereas Adjustment should read Lamed.
11) See item 4, under “Contradictions.”
Thus we have ten-and-a-half confirmations that Crowley meant some, if not all, of the following:
IV-Emperor-Aries-Tzaddi-Path 28
XVII-Star-Aquarius-Hé-Path 15
Thus, no recoloring or renumbering of the cards is required.
CONTRADICTIONS
1) We have ONE contradiction of the zodiacal attributions in the chart on page 278. which could be an easy mistake if one reads the chart from right-to-left. (What appears in the chart is the standard Hebrew letter to Zodiac correspondences found in the Sepher Yetzirah, which Crowley contradicts in all the places noted above.)
IV – Emperor – Tzaddi – 90,900 – Aquarius – Fish-hook – 28
XVII – Star – Hé – 5 –Aries – Window - 15
2) We have ONE contradiction of the path of the Emperor where it says on page 78 that the Emperor's "authority is derived from Chokmah . . . and exerted upon Tiphareth" (that is, Path 15). This is true is the GD system, which Crowley had used for many long years before his final "switch" and may have been an ingrained concept that just slipped out.
His text for The Star says nothing about the Paths directly, but does reference the Abyss - which Path 15 crosses (but Path 28 does not).
3) “The Key Scale” diagram, p. 266. This is a Tree of Life diagram that places “Hé-Window” on Path 15 (Chokmah to Tiphareth), and “Tzaddi-Fish-hook” on Path 28 (Netzach to Yesod). It does not show the astrological sign, nor the Tarot association. In his description of the diagram, p. 267, Crowley says: “This diagram illustrates the conventional theory of the structure of the Universe adopted as convenient for the purposes of calculation in the Book called The Tarot.” As the “conventional theory” it depicts the Tree as designed by Kirchner and used by the Golden Dawn.
These three contradictions are easily explained as being standard GD attributions with which Crowley worked for over thirty years before instituting his Emperor-Star counterchange, which appears for the first, and only, time in The Book of Thoth. Only the first of these contradictions seems to be an out-and-out error.
4) “General Characteristics of the Trumps as They Appear in Use,” p. 255 & 259. Item labeled IV consists of a verse that describes the Star and card meanings that describe the Emperor. Item labeled XVII consists of a verse that describes the Emperor and card meanings that describe the Star. Therefore this item is half “contradiction” and half “consistent” with what I see as Crowley’s intention (see top).
“IV: Pour water on thyself: thus shalt thou be / a Fountain to the Universe. / Find thou thyself in every Star. / Achieve thou every possibility. War, conquest, victory, strife, ambition, originality, overweening confidence and megalomania, quarrelsomeness, energy, vigour, stubbornness, impracticability, rashness, ill-temper.
“XVII: Use all thine energy to rule thy thought: burn/ up thy thought as the Phoenix. Hope, unexpected help, clearness of vision, realization of possibilities, spiritual insight, with bad aspects, error of judgment, dreaminess, disappointment.”
Nice post Teheuti. :)
There's one point that I'm still not quite happy with though.
2) We have ONE contradiction of the path of the Emperor where it says on page 78 that the Emperor's "authority is derived from Chokmah . . . and exerted upon Tiphareth" (that is, Path 15). This is true is the GD system, which Crowley had used for many long years before his final "switch" and may have been an ingrained concept that just slipped out.
If it's just a slip why did Crowley get Harris to paint the Emperor with the same incorrect symbolism, ie the ray of light showing the influence from Chokmah to Tiphareth. Even if Harris was working from a description of the Emperor containing the same error surely she would have noticed it. She asked enough questions about the Emperor - Star switch to know the answer.
If it's just a slip why did Crowley get Harris to paint the Emperor with the same incorrect symbolism, ie the ray of light showing the influence from Chokmah to Tiphareth.
It could equally be a ray of light from Netzach to Yesod. Why put Aries in the place on the Tree where you would expect Aquarius to be?
I don't use Crowley's attributions as they don't make any sense to me - and I certainly tried to understand.
Mary
Formicida
16-10-2006, 11:11
I've just had something of a revelation about the Emperor's place on the tree, and I'd like to hear other's thoughts. Forgive me (and correct me!) if I'm way off base--I'm quite the Qabalah newbie.
One thing that's been bothering me about the switch is that it seems to remove any possibility of parallelism with the Empress. That's particularly odd because a glance at the two cards reveals that they're closely linked. So why should one be so much further down the Tree than the other?
I'm reading Dion Fortune's The Mystical Qabalah, and this quote seems to give the beginnings of an answer:
These two basal Sephiroth of the Supernal Triad are especially referred to as the Father and Mother, Abba and Ama, and their magical images are those of the bearded male and the matron, thus representing, not the sex attraction of Netzach and Yesod, who are represented as maiden and youth, but the mature beings who have mated and reproduced.
In other words, there's a parallelism here between Chokmah/Binah and Netzach/Yesod--the paths of the Empress and the Emperor respectively. The Empress could be the mature love shared between adults who have lived together for years, while the Emperor would be the much more dynamic, sexual attraction between new lovers.
I know it's Fortune and not Crowley, but it still seems to fit. Does he say anything about this? I don't think I've ever seen anything justifying the switch in terms like this, but I could easily have missed something.
Other interpretations? What do you guys think?
I agree with you, Formicida. :)
Crowley's placement of the Emperor on the 28th path is perfect and it also high lights a prime piece of Victorian moral values.
The magical images of Yesod and Netzach literally scream animal attraction. The magical image of Yesod is of a Strong, beautiful naked Man. Some sources suggest a very phallic nature as well. ;)
The magical image of Netzach is of a Beautiful naked woman. Some sources describe her as the Amazon to indicate the very primal and instinctual nature of Venus that is present in the Sephira Netzach.
So what does that tell us about the 28th path? It's going to be one heck of an explosion. :laugh: The Emperor fits the bill perfectly. He symbolises the heat and fire of sexual attraction. His attribution of Aries connects with the Springtime and all of it's natural associations. The Hebrew letter Tzaddi, literally meaning Fish hook, ties in with the symbolism of attraction.
The 28th path is deffinitely a path of sexual energy. That's why the old attribution of Star seems like such a mismatch. But I'm sure it fitted in perfectly with repressive Victorian moral values though.
Of course there are different aspects to the Emperor. One is control. It's well known that Western magical practices and Eastern yoga techniques use the sexual force in a controled way to bring about enlightenment. Tzaddi also means meditation. ;)
In my opinion people who object to the placement of the Emperor on the 28th path do so because they have an incorrect idea of the kind of Venus that Netzach represents. Netzach is the home of the firey, passionate, and wild Venus. The one that will literally rip your clothes off. :laugh:
The more traditional side of Venus relates more to the Empress on the 14th path.
Tzaddi is the Tsar (Czar/Tzar).
Heh is the Star.
I think there's a profound mystery in this. ;)
furthermore, the meanings in hebrew:
Tzaddi = 'fishook' -- obviously masculine.
Heh = 'window' -- obviously feminine.
The balancing of the masculine and feminine energies in the Yod Heh Vau Heh formula was very important to Crowley.
I don't use Crowley's attributions as they don't make any sense to me - and I certainly tried to understand.
A year on they make more sense to me. My new understanding revolves around Crowley's three aeon model, Isis, Osiris, and Horus. I just hope it makes some sort of sense to people unfamiliar with it.
Yesod is the seat of the instinctual and primal energies within mankind. These basic, primitive drives correspond to the aeon of Isis and Lunar consciousness. During the aeon of Osiris these primal drives are seen as undesirable. Just think about Christian attitudes towards sex and sexuality for a good example. During this period of human development the religious dogma focuses on the need to spiritualise and sublimate the primal drives within mankind. Anything that might arouse or stimulate these basic instincts and drives gets the lable of "sinful". (There are a whole host of ramifications here that relate to past attitudes about sex, women, and physical enjoyment.) This need to reject the physical and focus solely on the spiritual is represented by placing the Star on the 28th path.
The aeon Horus ushers in a change. Horus the child combines both Isis and Osiris. The formula of Horus is not the uncontrolled animal/lunar consciousness of Isis, but neither is it the repression and restriction of Osiris. Instead it is a blend of both. The primal instincts are to be harnessed, controlled and used in their rise to the fiery devotion of Netzach. What better card could there be than the Emperor on the 28th path? ;)
This tzaddi business......
Personally I just think 'wuh????' and ignore it.
Really, I've read the BoT.
If Crowley can't get it straight in his own head, does he really think that I'm going to bother?
This tzaddi business......
Personally I just think 'wuh????' and ignore it.
Really, I've read the BoT.
If Crowley can't get it straight in his own head, does he really think that I'm going to bother?
Ah, but when it involves restoring the feminine principle to the Trinity it's worth the bother, or so some people think. :laugh:
I am the feminine principal.
All three of me.
So we don't have to bother.
<<The 28th path is deffinitely a path of sexual energy. That's why the old attribution of Star seems like such a mismatch. But I'm sure it fitted in perfectly with repressive Victorian moral values though.>>
Well...a perfect Victorian moral disguise, given that the Star is very sexual. And ALL about control. (Put in "my" language, as we were discussing elsewhere, Emily Dickinson was a Swamp Thing).
<<This need to reject the physical and focus solely on the spiritual is represented by placing the Star on the 28th path.>>
Or perhaps the rejection is represented in over-spiritualizing the Star?
<<So what does that tell us about the 28th path? It's going to be one heck of an explosion. >>
Maybe. Definitely some kind of union. But does it have to be an explosive union? Or not a dynamite explosion, but more like...mitosis? This seems very Star to me...and if pressed, I'd say that restoring the feminine to the trinity is more completely done by re-uniting a spiritualized feminine force with her very physical source -- the image is ready to receive its fullness -- rather than giving a feminine attribution to a very masculine image. See, I'm still treading in the images....tho your J H V H point does make a lot of sense to me. What happens if you give the Emporer Tzaddi and the Star Heh but the Star retains the 28th path and the Emporer retains the 15th?
What happens if you give the Emporer Tzaddi and the Star Heh but the Star retains the 28th path and the Emporer retains the 15th?
You can't move the Hebrew letters, they are fixed to the individual paths. Heh is the 15th path, Tzaddi the 28th. The Tarot cards are placed on the paths and thus correspond with that particular paths letter.
You can't move the Hebrew letters, they are fixed to the individual paths. Heh is the 15th path, Tzaddi the 28th. The Tarot cards are placed on the paths and thus correspond with that particular paths letter.
But you can move the location of the paths.
MikeTheAltarboy
28-10-2007, 10:47
But you can move the location of the paths.
Definitely true. I've actually wondered - and I'm a GD man all the way! - why the Kircher tree is the one they used? In some ways, it has seemed to my very *minor* musings that the Luria tree might be more telling.
In some ways, it has seemed to my very *minor* musings that the Luria tree might be more telling.
I've been studying Stephen Skinners Magician's Tables and he makes the same point, quite convincingly, based around a desire for the three mother letters to occupy the horizontal paths.
I've not really studied the location of the paths in any real detail as yet, but thus far I find the selections for the middle pillar very suitable, and am also quite happy to see Daleth running between Binah and Chokmah. The remainder I've not developed an opinion.
But you can move the location of the paths.
That's true, but then you are no longer playing the same rules that govern the Thoth tarot. You'll have to start again from scratch.
That's true, but then you are no longer playing the same rules that govern the Thoth tarot. You'll have to start again from scratch.
Yeppers. I was just being flippant really :D
Dr Benway
24-11-2007, 12:57
the h and tz (riddle) is AThBSh, change all the cards in this way, with path 1 moon, path 2 sun (note the sun and moon here is common to alchemy) path 3 aeon (nuit + hadit / ida + pingala / shiva + shakti) path 4 universe.
notice the lower part of the tree, part of the zodiac runs clockwise gemini
through to scorpio.
As an addendum to my previous thoughts it might be worth considering that the Emperor on the 28th path also represents the method by which we impregnate (Aries) our subconscious (Yesod) with our desires (Netzach). The method of Magick.
The 28th path is a path of intense energy, the rousing and control of Kundalini. The upward flow of energy along the 28th path is mystical via the discipline of Raja Yoga (Raja = Royal), the downward flow is magical.
Liber AL 2:26
26. I am the secret Serpent coiled about to spring: in my coiling there is joy. If I lift up my head, I and my Nuit are one. If I droop down mine head, and shoot forth venom, then is rapture of the earth, and I and the earth are one.
The switch of the Star and Emperor has other implications not directly related to the Emperor. With the Star now on the 15th path it completes the symbolism of the Sun behind the Son. All the paths that lead into Tiphareth from the supernal triad now contain Sirius symbolism.
The Star literally is Sirius the Dog Star. The full title of Atu II is The Priestess of the Silver Star. The actual star itself can be found in the 19* degree of the constellation of Gemini, the Lovers.
S.'.S.'. - One Star in Sight.
Eruditus
14-01-2008, 09:56
Hello everyone,
I'm probably more of a neophyte than Neophyte, who seems to really know what he's doing (everyone up here seems to know what he or she is doing).
So, I'm going to do the typically irritating newbie thing to do: throw in my two cents' worth.
Mr. Crowley, almost as an afterthought, gives us the etymological lineage of the Hebrew letter Tzaddi. It's literal meaning (fishhook) is, I believe, less important than the etymological one.
He relates the "tz" dipthong to all the imperial words for male dominion that the world has. Ceasar. Czar. Tzar. Sire. Sir. All of these come from Tzaddi, according to Mr. Crowley, and you know what? I am VERY inclined to believe him, not just because he forgot more about magic at age twelve than I'll probably ever learn in my lifetime, but because I know how far languages can migrate across this globe. English is strewn with archaic Sanskrit forms, forms that traveled all the way to Germany to Britain and finally to America, all courtesy of the Indian subcontinent. So, I think the etymological link between Tzaddi and the Emperor is important.
Also, I've noticed a few seemingly basic, amateurish errors in a number of otherwise excellent books on the Thoth Tarot. The thought's crossed my mind that the authors (this would include Mr. Crowley) were irritating (I meant to write "imitating" here, and now on an edit I am deciding to allow this Freudian slip to stay, if for no other reason than it illustrates my point that intentional mistakes draw one towards enlightenment) Eliphas Levi--changing small details here and there to protect the integrity of their vows. If the aspirant to knowledge is canny enough, he'll root out and correct the discrepancy.
Either way, I believe the contradictions or errors are intentional. Whether or not they're put there to enlighten or befuddle, I still don't know. Then again, on further thought, I suppose they could be mistakes. After all, these guys are still humans.
When I come across "errors" such as this one in my studies, I'm inclined to just shrug my shoulders, and move on. That's probably because I'm new, and don't want to waste time splitting hairs. Later, when I'm at you guys' level, I'll worry about it more.
By the way, can anyone recommend good books on the Qabala?
ravenest
14-01-2008, 10:21
Hello everyone,
I'm probably more of a neophyte than Neophyte, who seems to really know what he's doing (everyone up here seems to know what he or she is doing).
So, I'm going to do the typically irritating newbie thing to do: throw in my two cents' worth.
No, it's a fresh breeze (and one that isnt tooooo insane ;) )
Also, I've noticed a few seemingly basic, amateurish errors in a number of otherwise excellent books on the Thoth Tarot. The thought's crossed my mind that the authors (this would include Mr. Crowley) were irritating (I meant to write "imitating" here, and now on an edit I am deciding to allow this Freudian slip to stay, if for no other reason than it illustrates my point that intentional mistakes draw one towards enlightenment) Eliphas Levi--changing small details here and there to protect the integrity of their vows. If the aspirant to knowledge is canny enough, he'll root out and correct the discrepancy.
Either way, I believe the contradictions or errors are intentional. Whether or not they're put there to enlighten or befuddle, I still don't know.
Ah yes ... what a great excuse ... mistake, me? Oh no I was just protecting the sanctity of my vows. :laugh: Reminds me of words of advice from the head of a magical organisation here in OZ; "if someone asks you a complex magical question you can't answer, tell 'em it's a mystery." ;) Often i find I write about something I'm not supposed to, I find 99% of the time one can word it differently or lead along to the obvious conclusion for someone that has put in a bit of work and study. That's a lot better than the semi-smarmy 'Uncle Thero', "As initiates of the IV degree OTO are well aware" or the fully smarmy Waite-a git (HA! I did it, I meant to write Waite-a-bit - for A.E, Wait, but I'll let that one stand :laugh:) 'I know, but I will not tell the likes of you.'
Lots of times, I believe commentary authors are just being repetative, armchair occultists. I dont know how many times I have seen that wrong planetary karmea being repoduced, in books and in ritual, to me, evidence that it has not actually been worked with or analysed by the person in question.
of course it is always difficult when one finds one of these glitches - is it a mistake, or am I just judging it from my own incorrect and inexperienced evaluation?
PS. I just started rereading (since 20 years ago) Levis Theory and Practice etc. Gawd he takes a thrashing from the editor at the begining! Then as I worked through I have come to a new conclusion .... Levi is as mad as cut black snake! (But I guess , back in those days ...?)
Also, somewhere, AC talks about his difficulty of communication and why his writings end up the way they do; boiling over with enthusiasm, assuming the reader already knows and he is trying to present the info in a new and interesting form .... I think the passage is somewhere in 'Magick Without Tears' - Can't remeber the name of the chapter (Aeon418 probably does)
ravenest
14-01-2008, 10:25
By the way, can anyone recommend good books on the Qabala?
Not being rude or anything, but at the moment I am enjoying, 'Kabbalah for Dummies' by Arthur Kurzweil, but thats trad. Kabbalah.
Eruditus
14-01-2008, 11:05
Those "Dummies" books are actually not bad, for their purpose. My first Tarot book was a "Dummies" book, and it provided a pleasant introduction.
It takes humility to study one of those books. It takes humility to learn. Period.
How did that old slogan go? "You can learn a lot from a dummy." Truer words, truer words....
Either way, I believe the contradictions or errors are intentional. Whether or not they're put there to enlighten or befuddle, I still don't know. Then again, on further thought, I suppose they could be mistakes. After all, these guys are still humans.
It's worth bearing in mind how very reticent Crowley was to revealing the Star / Emperor switch. Despite knowing the attribution for at least a quarter of a century he chose not to print it until near the end of his life. Even then he may have been in two minds about it.
A good example of Crowley's attitude can be found in a footnote in chapter 4 of Magick in Theory and Practice. In the main text he discusses the formula of ALHIM while using the old Emperor - Heh correspndence. The footnote reads:
The letter He is the formula of Nuith, which makes possible the process described in the previous notes. But it is not permissible here to explain fully the exact matter or manner of this adjustment. I have preferred the exoteric attributions, which are sufficiently informative for the beginner.
Eruditus
15-01-2008, 07:27
What an interesting man. A fascinating enigma. I'm a new devotee of Mr. Crowley, but I can't wait to read all of his books.
Isn't it ironic, how conventional religions make most of their "secrets" available to their Adepts, and yet those conventional religions can be dull, false, and unsatisfying...and yet the "religions" or belief systems that really do work, consistently and with scientific fidelity of replication, make their "secrets" something that the Adept must dig up and earn? Isn't that revealing?
There isn't much esotericism in Christianity and Islam. Sure, those religions have their mystics, but for the most part all of the important doctrines are readily available to even the stupidest devotee. And yet both of these religions are inefficient and destructive.
For me, Mr. Crowley's reticence and the whole atmosphere of guardedness, plus the headiness and sheer difficulty of this art and science, confirm my belief in the existence of the super- or meta- or preternatural in a way that the conventional religions could never hope to achieve.
crystal dawn
22-05-2008, 20:53
Hi there
I am fairley new to the thoth tarot, but have studied tarot as a subject for some time.
I just wondered if the reason for the emperor tzaddi - star - heh switch could be indicative of the new aeon. After all Aliester Crowley changed certain traditional names of tarot cards to fit in with the new aeon.
my reasoning for this is that the path itself from chochmah to tiphareth wisdom to beauty could indicate the current belief systems ie the last aeon the aeon of osiris had a big daddy religion as in the christian church where people worshiped a male god (the emperor - the ruler - the lord),
The new aeon the aeon of horus (freedom,new understanding, the new hope,the new light - all attributes of the star card) becomes the new belief system.
ie the new wisdom the new beauty
and this could be why some authors of the tarot still refer to old tree of life system which was based in the previous aeon where the emperor was heh and the star tzaddi.
Alot of Crowleys work was based around the coming of the new aeon so a major change like this could indicate the coming of the new aeon (thats the one we are in now - the aeon of Horus)
As the first thing Crowley said was that tzaddi is not the star - this could mean that he already knew that the star card represented the new aeon.
Even though there is already an aeon card in the thoth tarot, which indicates rebirth, the coming of the new aeon etc - the true nature of the aeon is maybe represented in the star card ie what type of belief systems will replace the old big daddy religion.
Just a thought
blessings
crystal dawn
I just wondered if the reason for the emperor tzaddi - star - heh switch could be indicative of the new aeon.
It most certainly could be. :)
As the first thing Crowley said was that tzaddi is not the star - this could mean that he already knew that the star card represented the new aeon.
I can agree with that in a certain sense. I will add that Crowley did not consciously know it until several years after the reception of Liber AL. His diaries show evidence of experimentation with both the old and the new attribution. After a period of time he became increasingly convinced and confident in the new attribution.
Even though there is already an aeon card in the thoth tarot, which indicates rebirth, the coming of the new aeon etc - the true nature of the aeon is maybe represented in the star card ie what type of belief systems will replace the old big daddy religion.
Or maybe even non-belief systems. Who knows? The Star representing Nuit is symbolic of infinite possiblities. Instead of the "one size fits all" approach of conventional religion, the new Stellar consciousness, while identical in source, is unique in expression.
The Emperor, who was symbolic of the old Sun-God and exterior worship, is moved down to the 28th path. Instead of worshiping an external father figure, divinity is recognised as being within instead of above. Consequently the repositioning of the Emperor lower down on the Tree of Life may be symbolic of the Kingly qualities of that card becoming part of the evolution of human consciousness in the New Aeon.
Every man and every woman is a star.
My main stumbling block with the whole Heh - Tzaddi swap is the explanation of how it becomes evident when you place it on the path of the Zodiac with the 2 twists on it. I may be missing something, so if I am please enlighten me.
The 3 correspondences used to explain it this way are:
1) Latin Number Correspondence
2) Astrological Correspondence
3) Hebrew Correspondence
He ties the swap of Emperor and Star in with his switch (rectification) of Adjustment and Lust. The problems I have are these:
- All 4 cards maintain their astrological correspondences.
- The Latin numbers are swapped on Adjustment and Lust, but the Hebrew letters are left attached to the original card.
- Emperor and Star have their Hebrew letters swapped, but their Latin numbers are unchanged.
No matter how you lay out the cards (in a circle by Astrological, Hebrew, or Latin Correspondence), if you draw the line representing the zodiac through the pattern, you never end up with a double twist.
I guess I just don't get it. Any answers?
Ross G Caldwell
23-06-2008, 22:30
Hi Lore,
My main stumbling block with the whole Heh - Tzaddi swap is the explanation of how it becomes evident when you place it on the path of the Zodiac with the 2 twists on it. I may be missing something, so if I am please enlighten me.
The 3 correspondences used to explain it this way are:
1) Latin Number Correspondence
2) Astrological Correspondence
3) Hebrew Correspondence
He ties the swap of Emperor and Star in with his switch (rectification) of Adjustment and Lust. The problems I have are these:
- All 4 cards maintain their astrological correspondences.
- The Latin numbers are swapped on Adjustment and Lust, but the Hebrew letters are left attached to the original card.
- Emperor and Star have their Hebrew letters swapped, but their Latin numbers are unchanged.
No matter how you lay out the cards (in a circle by Astrological, Hebrew, or Latin Correspondence), if you draw the line representing the zodiac through the pattern, you never end up with a double twist.
I guess I just don't get it. Any answers?
There's another thread that deals with your questions here, "The Star Card"
http://tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=52816
see particularly the last page, and my own post #140 which concludes -
"The three systems - alphabetic, astrological, and tarot - are not able to be seamlessly combined. But they can be elegantly and symmetrically related, and this is what Crowley sought and why he found the Tzaddi-Heh, Emperor-Star, Aquarius-Aries switch convincing."
For Crowley the structure of the Tree was inviolable. The Sephiroth are 1-10 and the Alphabet paths between them stay where they are. Heh still mediates between Chokhmah and Tiphereth.
What changes are the cards *on* the paths, and the Zodiacal attributions of the cards - so the Star takes Aquarius up to Heh, and the Emperor takes Aries down to Tzaddi.
The "double loop" refers to the symmetry this Thelemic change makes with the earlier Cypher Manuscript G.D. change to the astrological attributions of Leo and Libra to Strength and Justice.
The Cypher Manuscript (the foundational document of the Golden Dawn) said the Leo should go to Strength and Libra to Justice, which "causeth a transposition" between these cards, because it changes the Zodiacal order of the trumps, which was straightforward and made Justice take Leo and Strength take Libra (the Hermit taking Virgo and the Wheel of Fortune taking a planet, Jupiter). So these two cards became "transposed" in the symbolism, separated by one sign, Virgo.
So when Crowley came to the conclusion that Tzaddi should be the Emperor and Heh the Star, he noticed at some point (I think sometime in 1918) that the Zodiacal attributions of these cards, Aries-Emperor and Aquarius-Star, are also separated only by one sign, Pisces, and further that Pisces and Virgo are at exact opposite points on the Zodiac.
When you make a diagram of the circle of the Zodiac, with a circle drawn between the two transposed sets of cards, you see that there is a symmetrical "double loop" (symmetrical because Pisces and Aries are opposite, and their neighbors are too). I believe it is this symmetry, and his firm faith in the Secret Chiefs and the authority behind the GD, that made Crowley finally accept the transposition of the Emperor and the Star on the Tree of Life as the answer to the riddle posed to him in the Book of the Law.
Ross
Thank you for the well thought out reply, Ross. :)
For Crowley the structure of the Tree was inviolable. The Sephiroth are 1-10 and the Alphabet paths between them stay where they are. Heh still mediates between Chokhmah and Tiphereth.
What changes are the cards *on* the paths, and the Zodiacal attributions of the cards - so the Star takes Aquarius up to Heh, and the Emperor takes Aries down to Tzaddi.
The "double loop" refers to the symmetry this Thelemic change makes with the earlier Cypher Manuscript G.D. change to the astrological attributions of Leo and Libra to Strength and Justice.
This touches upon the issue I am wrestling with (and have been for about 8 years off and on). I do not "see" the double loop.
Path and Hebrew order are the same, that organization is considered immutable in both the Golden Dawn and Thelemic traditions. If you lay out the cards in Thoth order, then yes you are forced to switch two pairs of cards to reorganize them into Hebrew order. There is a double swap in this case. I assume the whole "revolving" comment by Crowley and mentioned by you relates to this fact? This is the only case I can find where two swaps are present in any reordering. We don't even look at the Zodiac in this case.
As far as the Zodiac relates to the issue, only one swap is ever made at any one time. In Thoth order only Leo and Libra are transposed since Emperor-Aries and Star-Aquarius remain intact. If you shift the cards into Hebrew order you fix Leo-Libra and disorder Aries-Aquarius. If you instead place the cards in Zodiac progression, only Heh and Tzaddi are out of sequence if we look only at the Hebrew attributes.
The only way I can see a "double loop" when one is using the Zodiac as a measure is if we reorganize our cards based on the Zodiac first and then allow the single instance of Major Arcana disorder to be one "swap" and the single Hebrew disorder to be a second. I cannot find an organization pattern involving the Zodiac that ever has 2 pairs of cards transposed using only one additional set of attributes beyond the astrological, either using Golden Dawn or Thelemic Systems.
Here is my data, maybe I am making a mistake or missing an important comparison:***Golden Dawn***
Hebrew and Tarot Attribution: No Swaps
Hebrew Letter: -- 001 002 003 004 005 006 007 008 009 010 020 030 040 050 060 070 080 090 100 200 300 400
Card Number: ---- 000 001 002 003 004 005 006 007 008 009 010 011 012 013 014 015 016 017 018 019 020 021
Card Disorders: - --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---
Hebrew and Zodiac Attribution: No Swaps
Hebrew Letter: -- 001 002 003 004 005 006 007 008 009 010 020 030 040 050 060 070 080 090 100 200 300 400
Zodiac Attribute: --- --- --- --- Ari Tau Gem Can Leo Vir --- Lib --- Sco Sag Cap --- Aqu Pic --- --- ---
Zodiac Disorders: --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---
Tarot and Zodiac Attribution: No Swaps
Card Number: ---- 000 001 002 003 004 005 006 007 008 009 010 011 012 013 014 015 016 017 018 019 020 021
Zodiac Attribute: --- --- --- --- Ari Tau Gem Can Leo Vir --- Lib --- Sco Sag Cap --- Aqu Pic --- --- ---
Zodiac Disorders: --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---
***Thelema***
Hebrew and Thoth Attribution: 2 Swaps
Hebrew Letter: -- 001 002 003 004 005 006 007 008 009 010 020 030 040 050 060 070 080 090 100 200 300 400
Card Number: ---- 000 001 002 003 017 005 006 007 011 009 010 008 012 013 014 015 016 004 018 019 020 021
Card Disorders: - --- --- --- --- *A* --- --- --- *B* --- --- *B* --- --- --- --- --- *A* --- --- --- ---
Hebrew and Zodiac Attribution: 1 Swap
Hebrew Letter: -- 001 002 003 004 005 006 007 008 009 010 020 030 040 050 060 070 080 090 100 200 300 400
Zodiac Attribute: --- --- --- --- Aqu Tau Gem Can Leo Vir --- Lib --- Sco Sag Cap --- Ari Pic --- --- ---
Zodiac Disorders: --- --- --- --- *A* --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- *A* --- --- --- ---
Thoth and Zodiac Attribution: 1 Swap
Card Number: ---- 000 001 002 003 004 005 006 007 008 009 010 011 012 013 014 015 016 017 018 019 020 021
Zodiac Attribute: --- --- --- --- Ari Tau Gem Can Lib Vir --- Leo --- Sco Sag Cap --- Aqu Pic --- --- ---
Zodiac Disorders: --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- *B* --- --- *B* --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---
*Thoth Reorganized (Hebrew Order) and Zodiac Attribution: 1 Swap
Card Number: ---- 000 001 002 003 017 005 006 007 011 009 010 008 012 013 014 015 016 004 018 019 020 021
Zodiac Attribute: --- --- --- --- Aqu Tau Gem Can Leo Vir --- Lib --- Sco Sag Cap --- Ari Pic --- --- ---
Zodiac Disorders: --- --- --- --- *A* --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- *A* --- --- --- ---
*Thoth Reorganized (Zodiac Order) and Hebrew Attribution: 1 Card Swap, 1 Hebrew Swap (2 Swaps total)
Card Number: ---- 000 001 002 003 004 005 006 007 011 009 010 008 012 013 014 015 016 017 018 019 020 021
Card Disorders: - --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- *B* --- --- *B* --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---
Hebrew Letter: -- 001 002 003 004 090 006 007 008 009 010 020 030 040 050 060 070 080 005 100 200 300 400
Hebrew Disorders: --- --- --- --- *A* --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- *A* --- --- --- ---
Ross G Caldwell
24-06-2008, 23:55
I'm not sure I understand what problems you're seeing, Lore. You might actually be looking right at it (you have all pieces of puzzle) but the three systems (astrological, alphabetic, tarot) don't combine seamlessly. But Crowley thought that the elegance of the pairings in one (the astrological) proved the correctness of the transposition in a second (the Tarot). He was looking for some kind of confirmation for his attempts to figure out what card Tzaddi should be. It seems that his emphasis on this "double loop in the Zodiac" attributions of the cards indicates that his discovery of it is what convinced him that the Emperor and Star positions on the Tree was the correct solution.
Crowley's term "double loop" (illustrated on page 11 of BoT) refers only to the fact that the two pairs of card transpositions are attributed to zodiacal signs that are on each side of one sign (Pisces and Virgo). Because they are transposed, he sees each pair as "looping" around Pisces and Virgo respectively. Emperor and Star/Aries and Aquarius rotate around Pisces, and Justice and Strength/Libra and Leo rotate around Virgo. Pisces and Virgo are 180° apart, directly opposite one another, which gives complete balance to the pairs of rotations.
I'm not aware that anybody in the GD ever thought that the switch of positions of Justice and Strength was a "loop" around Virgo. The switch in the first place was due to the authority of a single document which the founders claimed to have come from the Secret Chiefs, and the document's reasoning was historical and iconographical - primarily, Leo should go with a card that has a Lion, and Justice with the sign of the Balance, Libra.
In order to keep the Zodiac order of the Trumps straight, (Leo, Virgo, Libra, etc.) Strength, traditionally numbered 11, had to be moved to the position of Justice, numbered 8, and vice versa. Waite's deck, you'll note, does this, and he writes in PKT that he does not feel the need to explain his reasoning to the public for the change.
Crowley's Tarot restores the numbering of the old Tarot de Marseille, but changes the Hebrew letters to reflect the GD teaching. Additionally, he adds his own switch, so that Tzaddi, in the Thoth Tarot order, now comes between Daleth and Vav. But neither he nor the GD ever suggested that the Hebrew Alphabet was in need of revision! Only that the secret Tarot attributions were in need of revision. Crowley keeps the Roman Numerals of the cards in their traditional order for this latter revision as well, so that the Star is still number XVII, and the Emperor IV.
I think I understand your chart demonstrating the different orders according to the three schemes. But this is the point, that the three schemes, taken independently, can't be combined. One system, the Tarot attributions to Hebrew letters, and thus paths on the Tree of Life, is changed; but neither the order of the Zodiac as Zodiac, nor the Hebrew letters as Hebrew letters, is. However, the elegance of having two perfectly symmetrical pairings of these attributions on the circle of the Zodiac seemed like a major proof to Crowley of the rightness of his already intuited switch.
BTW, there doesn't have to be a pair of "loops" as Crowley illustrated it - just draw the Zodiac circle, and then draw a circle from Aries to Aquarius and back around (Pisces will be in the middle), and on the other side draw a circle from Leo to Libra and back (Virgo will be in the middle). This is the "symmetrical elegance" that convinced Crowley. Additionally, you might want to put or imagine the Tarot trumps associated with their respective Zodiac signs.
I'm sure all this rambling hasn't clarified it... hopefully maybe. But it is just this, two pairs of switches seen as revolving around two opposing signs. Those are the "loops".
I think Crowley must have thought of the symbolism of the change of Aeons from Pisces to Aquarius involved in this switch too, but I can't recall him ever mentioning it explicitly.
Ross
Right in front of me, indeed. I find most things I have serious issues understanding are usually so simple that once understood I can't believe I missed it. :) I think I have it figured out, yes. Thanks for being so patient!
It is as you said, and Crowley's description of what is basically a shifting system with 3 'variables' using a static 2 dimensional image is where I was tripping myself up. Let me try.
The loops show what continuously changes, not what is changed and now at rest. The diagram isn't meant to represent a static system (which of course is one of Crowley's big points about the wisdom of the new Aeon). These circles show where on the zodiac the changes occur, as Leo-Lib rotate around Vir and Aqu-Ari revolve around Pis as we switch between the Astrological, Numerological, and Hebrew systems. We are supposed to imagine the cards in question revolving around as each pattern of organization comes into play.
As for the 8-11 GD swap et al., I was aware of that one, which of course confused me even more. Sometimes one just gets stumped on the simplest things. Thanks for helping me see what I was missing.
I'm not aware that anybody in the GD ever thought that the switch of positions of Justice and Strength was a "loop" around Virgo. The switch in the first place was due to the authority of a single document which the founders claimed to have come from the Secret Chiefs, and the document's reasoning was historical and iconographical - primarily, Leo should go with a card that has a Lion, and Justice with the sign of the Balance, Libra.
Yes, that is one of the big differences between the Thelemic and Golden Dawn traditions IMO. The GD made their number change to homogenize the systems. They felt that in order to be correct, each system of ordering had to be perfectly parallel. Crowley, on the other hand, felt that everything was in motion and changing (even though while changing, on the largest scale all remained unchanged). He would have had no issue with the systems not being parallel. I suspect that he distrusted portions of the Homogenized GD system simply because the parallels appeared too contrived, too rigid and unmoving.
Ross G Caldwell
25-06-2008, 01:31
Yes, that is one of the big differences between the Thelemic and Golden Dawn traditions IMO. The GD made their number change to homogenize the systems. They felt that in order to be correct, each system of ordering had to be perfectly parallel. Crowley, on the other hand, felt that everything was in motion and changing (even though while changing, on the largest scale all remained unchanged). He would have had no issue with the systems not being parallel. I suspect that he distrusted portions of the Homogenized GD system simply because the parallels appeared too contrived, too rigid and unmoving.
I think you're right, the GD thought that the Sefer Yetzirah attributions of the letters to the signs had to be maintained in the Tarot as well - and it was an easy change to make, because it only involved one pair of cards. Those cards were additionally two virtues, so the change did not do any symbolic damage to the order of the trumps.
But if Crowley had felt this need to stick to a straight Sefer Yetzirah-Hebrew letter-Tarot card attribution, he would have had to put the Emperor between the Tower and the Moon, and the Star between the Empress and the Pope! (in addition to making "Lust" number VIII). Even if none of these occultists had an explicit understanding of the "generic" Renaissance meaning of the sequence, it was implicitly clear (I suspect) that such an order was inelegant and made hash of the sequence's natural meaning.
Moreover, Crowley had good reason to want Lust to be numbered XI. So his answer was, in the Trump sequence, to ignore the Zodiac and Hebrew letter order, and follow the TdM number order only. So both of the former systems are subordinated to the Trumps, whereas in the Golden Dawn the Tarot was subordinated to the Sefer Yetzirah's Astrological-Alphabetic order.
Ross
Ross G Caldwell
25-06-2008, 01:34
The loops show what continuously changes, not what is changed and now at rest. The diagram isn't meant to represent a static system (which of course is one of Crowley's big points about the wisdom of the new Aeon). These circles show where on the zodiac the changes occur, as Leo-Lib rotate around Vir and Aqu-Ari revolve around Pis as we switch between the Astrological, Numerological, and Hebrew systems. We are supposed to imagine the cards in question revolving around as each pattern of organization comes into play.
I agree. The loops show graphically, and are intended to show a dynamic, of how the two switches move. Their intrinsic and mutual symmetry is further proof to Crowley that the same Secret Chiefs that made the first switch (in the Cypher Manuscripts), made the second as well (in Liber AL).
Ross