View Full Version : Death card/ hidden cave
I came across an article on the net concerning the Death card. I did a search here to see if had been discussed before but couldn’t find anything, so here goes.
Apparently there is a cave hidden in the RW deck. If you look to the bottom of the rider’s foot, there is an arrow which points to this cave. It is above the ship.
There were a couple of ideas as to why it is there.
One was that it could be a hint at Dante’s journey into the underworld. (Death and rebirth of the ego?) Apparently Virgil finds him lying exhausted in a dark wood possibly suggested on the Death card by the black trees by the cave’s entrance.
The other concerned Jesus’ resurrection or rebirth in a cave.
The fact that it is hidden so well on the card, what do you think that symbolizes?
Look forward to your views,
Gloria.
firemaiden
02-10-2003, 08:03
Wow Gloria this is the kind of stuff I love. I have never seen it. Time to get out the magnifying glass. Any chance you could link to the site you mention?
Yes you will need a magnifying glass Firemaiden. I always thought the arrow to be a spur at his ankle.
I came across this some weeks ago, but didn't post because I assumed it was a well-known thing. But will try to back-track.
Gloria.
Firemaiden,
the Dante theory/ cave meaning was based on research by Robert O'Neill.
He has a book Tarot Symbolism, which is reviewed on Aecletic.
G.
galadrial
02-10-2003, 12:02
A blown up image of the card, in which the arrow and cave can be readily seen, can be viewed at www.sacred-texts.com/tarot/xr/ar13.htm
Thirteen
02-10-2003, 18:29
Wow. Son-of-a-billy-goat! Arrow...boat...but where's the cave? That's pretty well hidden there.
I'll take a stab and say that maybe it refers to Plato's cave (hey, why not?). That's the argument that a person raised in a cave (like we mortal folks), only sees glimpses of the firelight, shadows and such from the "perfect" world. And really can't understand or believe in that perfect world until he's taken out of the cave.
That kind of thought would seem to fit with the Qabbala idea of moving and transforming from the Earthly to the transendental. Death is a form of metamorphosis, a way of exiting the cave and moving on (like the skeleton on the horse) to the next level.
isthmus nekoi
02-10-2003, 19:04
Cave is also a very feminine symbol, in some schools of thought. A return to the womb/underworld/unconsciousness so to speak.
galadrial
02-10-2003, 22:26
Originally posted by isthmus nekoi
Cave is also a very feminine symbol, in some schools of thought. A return to the womb/underworld/unconsciousness so to speak.
Hi isthmus nekoi,
your comment reminds me of H.R. Giger's painting "Pump Excursion I", which was chosen for the Fool card in the "Giger Tarot". It can be seen at www.wicce.com/hrgigerpix.html . In an interview with J. Karlin, Giger says of this card, "He's going out thinking about where he came in."
isthmus nekoi
02-10-2003, 22:34
Originally posted by galadrial
In an interview with J. Karlin, Giger says of this card, "He's going out thinking about where he came in."
lol, that's one way to put it!
Actually, on this topic, I once read in National Geographic some time ago that Neanderthals (so we are talking H. sapiens I think..... augh, too long ago I studied anthro) did bury their dead and further more, in some of these burials, the humans were found in the fetal position.
regarding the fetal postion ,
my history teacher i recall asking us that very question, why in the world would you bury your dead in the fetal postion,
i said hmm
1. they didn't know why they died so wanted to bury them as fast as possible /bent up
2. it was a return to the womb
3. to save time on their move across the country
he said that sounds good , (or something to that effect, and then asked anyone else eheh )
shamans since time began and before have always used a natural opening in the ground to "travel" "journey" with their consciouss.
and joseph cambell in his power of myth video said that the water represented the female yes,
but also the unconscious/subsconscious
and in that story he was telling ,
a person was telling another to awaken and he pulled her out of the water she was trapped under.
also it is a legend to become a shaman , a person has to die and be reborn in his life, it used to be literal death but it is also symbolic death
and for the jesus cave,
it is much debated rather he died and ascended,
or faked his death using self hypnosis to slow down his breath and not feel any pain.
for the former the death card is a big step to moving forward in one life away from the spiritual and to the divine, by letting their old selfs die, (why it comes after the hanged man )
and if the latter,
well do we really die? and do we really come back ?
that is the question asked, of the death card
for some we don't know,
for others we don't believe
and for some who do know they are considered the fool.
Thirteen, if you go to post before yours, Galadrial shows you where you can view blown-up image of Death card.
G.
Could the reason for the cave being inconspicuous be symbolic with our preoccupation of the self, the ego?
Just a thought.
Thank you all for your imput, very interesting.
G.
This opens up a new set of ideas for the card.
Perhaps the river is the River Styx and the cave is therefore the entrance to the underworld.
If that is so then Death may be seen as deciding that which should be permanently done away with (to the underworld) and what should be saved and taken into the bright new future on the skyline.
Does it look to anyone else like there is a river flowing between the two towers? If it is then is are the blueish lines above the horse's leg a waterfall? If so, what is the black area above the bishop's hands?
I'm not sure that is a cave- the river actually looks like a water fall, which is symbolic of :
waterfall symbolizes a rebirth
A waterfall is a positive dream symbol that suggests a cleansing of negative emotions or psychological issues-
Water generally represents the unconscious and the emotions. A waterfall is a positive dream symbol that suggests a cleansing of negative emotions or psychological issues. Just a simple visualization or a daydream of standing in a waterfall makes a person feel energized and refreshed. If the waterfall in your dream is overwhelming or too powerful for you to enjoy, it may represent emotional energy and unconscious drives that are very difficult to effectively cope with on the conscious level.-
Source: Dream Lover Incorporated, http://www.dreamloverinc.com
The ink blots we are viewing almost look like trees and perhpaps a cave- all depends on the viewer, but if it is a cave stuck in a water fall, I would be prone to go with 13's assesement in how it relates to Plato's Cave- we understand and see only that which is show to us, and on a deeper level Plato Cave discusses the how the blank slates of our minds are impressed upon, shaped and molded by our culture- all our intellectual"understanding", is learned and is not a part of us when we are born- what we see, how we percieve it- even the reality of it has been shape and molded by all the people we interact with from birth. Death is like taking off all those clothes, becoming naked again, and understanding an aspect of humanity that few "if any" have experinced, it is the only real authentic experince- unadultrated- that we will ever experince, because few have lived to tell us how to intrepret what we see, and experience in the process.
I think that the cave is not associated with the watefall (unless you are referring to the black square adjacent to the horses knee. The cave is arched and a little way above the ships sail.
Does anyone else see a gray snake forming the edge of deaths saddle with its head between death's thigh and the horses neck?
Grizabella
06-01-2007, 14:09
I've heard of this before. I've got the RWS deck and I've never been able to find any real indication of a cave, although I do see an arrow. All I see is a few bold pen strokes and that's it.
starrystarrynight
06-01-2007, 14:17
I can't see a cave. I see what may be an arrow; however with Colman's work (here and in her children's-book and other illustrations), she did use what appears to be pen and ink for outlining figures with, as Lyric says, some rather bold strokes.
It's, of course, impossible to say what her intentions were for those background images, and I would tend to think that any interpretations are up for grabs by the viewers...which is what makes these discussions so interesting.
I don't have the facility to scan in a blown up image, but it seems that it could easily be seen as a cave entrance to me ;)
Thirteen
06-01-2007, 21:39
The cave (if cave it be) is right above the ship's flag and right next to the trees. You'll see trees, and then wavy lines that "seem" to imply a cliffside, and then a little black arch. Looks like the letter "D" turned on it's side. That's the cave.
Or maybe not. But that's really all the spur/arrow could be pointing to.
And yes, that is a snake on Death's saddle. Which, like the cave, relates to the underworld. As does the myth of Kore/Persephone, which the Death card can very much relate to. The world goes into winter, and Kore goes underground into the underworld. When spring comes--as it will (Death leading to rebirth, Winter to spring), then Kore will return from the underworld. She will emerge from the cave.
This was all part of the great, Eleusinian mysteries--that change over from life to death and back to life represented by Demeter's daughter going underground and then returning. Very apt.
And I agree that the ship and the river bring to mind the River Styx, again reinforcing the Kore/Greek Underworld connection.
fadestoblackk
06-01-2007, 23:17
Could it be remincient of the Fool and his stepping out of the cave? The cave is now barely visable. In the very distant past. Something about innocence being gone? Cynicality?
That is, if you interpret it as a cave. It could very well be that the arrow is only his spur, and the cave an interesting pen stroke as the artist was finishing off the cliff side.
I think it is a stretch, but it does bring out another aspect of the card.
I would not feel happy interpreting the 'arrow' as a 'spur' - firstly it is not very well drawn if it is a spur (compared with the rest of the armour), secondly I don't know any spurs shaped like arrows, thirdly it would seem a bit cruel on the horse to stick it in the side with an arrow point and fourthly I woudn't have thought death's horse would need a spur - death never hurries but arrives when it arrives :)
Thirteen
07-01-2007, 22:15
I woudn't have thought death's horse would need a spur - death never hurries but arrives when it arrives
Spurs can be worn for status rather than for use. But I agree that it's not a very well-drawn spur, and it would seem to be more there as arrow than as spur for that very reason.
Little Hare
08-01-2007, 05:21
you must all have fantastic eyesight because i still can't make out the cave! hmm maybe i have computer eyes...
I hope this helps- look just above the sail on the boat that looks like a sail barge on the River Styx, left of the line of trees. ~Rosanne
Thirteen
08-01-2007, 14:19
I hope this helps- look just above the sail on the boat that looks like a sail barge on the River Styx, left of the line of trees. ~Rosanne
Heh. I know where to look, but I don't think this image helps much. We really need to magnify that image. Just the spur/boat/cave part.
Heh. I know where to look, but I don't think this image helps much. We really need to magnify that image. Just the spur/boat/cave part.
Hows this then????~Rosanne
Jesus was born in a cave as well rather than a barn. They did not have the wood to make barns like we do. So we start as we end ? I would suppose the womb is a bit of a cave as well.
Little Hare
08-01-2007, 20:39
thanks roseanne i appreaciate it.
Must be just me tho caue all i can see is a squiggle
*runs off to scrutinize waite cards*
namesoftrees
10-01-2007, 08:36
I was going to say and can you see the person leaning toward a child slightly just inland from the boat.... but I was just being cheeky until you posted "big death" Roseanne, and now I believe I can see several figures! all as 'deliberate' as the little mound that is a figure in the boat... well suddenly the cave seems no stretch of the imagination at all.
I always thought that was a funny looking spur but I still believe it's a spur. A cave and a spur, and people in the landscape.
Lol namesoftrees! It is quite different when you enlarge a card. I find it very hard to decide what was intentional by the artist and what is a fortuitous brush or pen stroke. I was laughing away to myself, when I used the enlarge icon on the thumbnail and saw the eye in bend of the horses's front right knee! Imagine if it had being planned! I think we all should be careful about what we actually see or think we see in the cards. For example it is a snake on the saddle of Death's Horse, but is the flagstaff really a tapemeasure as someone once said to me? I think Pamela's trance paintings allow for insights of 'maybe its a ...' as that may triggers thoughts and ideas, and thats all it is, an inkblot image in some cases. I find the deck fun and I like when Fulgour scans his weird double images. Come to think of it now :shhh: death is sitting on a Washboard not a saddle- I wonder what that can mean? :joke: ~Rosanne
It's like Where's Waldo, once you finally see the arrow and cave then you can't miss it.
I also see a little gravedigger, and gravestone/crosses by the water I didn't notice before.
edited to add: I wish we knew how big her originals were. If they were card sized (which I doubt) much of what we wonder about could be laid off to blots and scratches, but if they were even as big as a sheet of typing paper you have to know they were deliberate thoughtful additions.
Little Hare
10-01-2007, 19:50
I finally found it after scrutinising the card :D
If you compare the Death card of the standard RWS with the Universal Waite tarot, you'll find that the 'spur' is present and the 'cave' is hardly noticable.
It seems it's all down to interpretation. I doubt that things like that would have gone unnoticed to the various artist's cloning the deck. However, the romantic in me rather likes the notion of a hidden cave and it's possible meaning.