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View Full Version : Chart Reading: Step #3, Martha Stewart -- Moon by sign, house, aspects to ASC & MC.


Minderwiz
12-10-2003, 05:25
OK so now we move on a step to the assessment of the Moon in Martha's chart. So far we have recognised it as the handle to a bucket shaped chart. We have noted the lack of any planet that is in opposition to it - the 'classic bucket shape should have a planet in opposition to the 'handle' planet and centred at the 'bottom' of the bucket.

Dave has suggested that this might lead to difficulties in the Moon expressing itself easily through the chart, especially with the dominant Sun conjunct the MC.

Now is your chance to say what you think Martha's Moon indicates about herself and her life.

I would be grateful if you could try to keep to Moon, Sun, Ascendant and MC in your observations. If you feel that there is a particular aspect or other feature worthy of note then flag it up for later discussion. That way we can keep a relatively tight focus on any dynamic relationships between the major factors in her chart. Otherwise feel free to say or ask whatever you want.

M-Press
12-10-2003, 08:33
oK...
I'll start with things i know-that I know, because the rest, I really don't know!!!

Moon in Sagg:
That would make Martha restless, with a need from freedom, and a desire not to be "tied down". (I can see here the fact that maybe the family demands were too big for her-she needed to be free to serve "other things"...
Moon in Sag is also one that seeks adventure. Sag is ruled by Jupiter, which makes it a lucky sign, and very optimistic too.
So, the moon in this placement, shows a person that too much of bad stuff, won't do too much bad to them! Somehow, the coins always flips on the bright side. So, Martha would not be one to be discouraged easily...
Sports would be good for her, to let out some of this restless, fire energy. i always have the feeling that Moon in Sagg natives, manage to relax, only when asleep... Otherwise, they just "move" around...

her Moon is in the 2nd house! A-ha!
Possessions, Money worries...
No matter how much she'll have, she'll always worry about it, and money in the bank will make her feel secure.
After reading her bio, we can see that what she did was "for the money'. She didn't have any personal drive to be famous for her own glamourous sake-and maybe this is why she didn't continue with modeling for long. A Leo, yes, but what really motivated her was not her own need to achive fame...only material security.

Now, the 2nd house is also the house of possesions, and this links me to her attachment to "things", those she shows us so gracefully, how to decorate.
Yes, she wants to have everything spik-and span (is that the way you say this?), and in general, if you follow Martha's housekeeping advice, you'll end up having "a lot of stuff"...as she saves everything -to use later-kind of thing...

Hm... is this Ok as a beginning?
am I allowed to "copy paste" info from other sites on these?
When it comes to aspects, I'm really no authority...

oh, Martha.....

Minderwiz
12-10-2003, 09:16
Thanks M-Press,

If you want to cite a web site it's better to post the link. However its better still if you can just try your hand and put something in your own words. Do't worry about being a beginner - we all started at the beginning!

Just try your own thoughts on what you see - even if it's only a sentence or so. Gradually as you begin to learn more you can expand the comments.

Minderwiz
12-10-2003, 21:40
My own view of MS' Moon is as follows:

Firstly the Moon signifies a variety of things in Astrology, intuition, feelings, the emotional as opposed to the rational side of our nature, the need to nurture, our relationship to the public at large and the Mother.

The Moon is in the second House - associated with our material resources, money, finance, movable property (possessions). So an initial stab would be on the lines of M-Press' post:

Martha is a woman who gets emotional security from her possessions and her money - material possessions are necessary for emotional security. This attitude may well have come from seeing her Mother as nurturing the family through the provision of the necessary material things to sustain it.

How well the Moon's energy can be channelled is determined by a variety of factors, the first being its Zodiacal placement. The Moon is in Sagittarius, ruled by Jupiter, which also rules the second House. Martha is going to be someone who wishes to accumlate and expand her possessions. Indeed she may make something of a religion of it - seeing material possessions as almost a way to spiritual well being. Given this approach it is unlikely that she will fail to expand her possessions, unless Jupiter is weak and impedited - we'll be looking at Jupiter later on.

However, Sagittarius is not a strong placement for the Moon - she does rule the second decanate (Face) but she is actually positioned in the third. She has no essential dignity at all, in her placement in Martha's chart - using traditional language, she is Peregrine, a wanderer with no home. There is some accidental dignity from being in the second.

Are there any aspects of note? The only major Aspects are squares - to Neptune, to the North Node and to the Part of Fortune. The latter two being quite strong.

A modern Astrologer might see the Neptune square as suggesting identity problems, unrealistic dreams and hopes, a tendency to be over-emotional and to idealise the mother or see the mother as victim. Of course not all of these would apply but from what we have learned about her biography the issues relating to her mother in real life may well be forshadowed here.

The Part of Fortune and the North Node are both in the fifth House in Pisces, ruled by Jupiter. They are conjunct to 6 minutes and I think we will need to look at them in more detail later on.

The Moon makes two quincunxes, one virtually exact to Mercury in the ninth (ruled by Cancer) and the other to Saturn in the Seventh. As we have Saturn conjunct Uranus in the Seventh we will be having a very interesting discussion about her ups and downs in marriage.

The Moon makes a semi-square aspect to the Ascendant, which again suggests something of an identity issue between the strong assertive projection to the world and some stress at an emotional and intuitve level. Is the need to assert herself in the world due to the lunar problems in the second? The Moon makes no aspect to the Ascendant ruler, Mars - so again the Moon may struggle to make itself felt in this chart.

Finally (for now) there is a sesquiquarate (135 degrees) between Moon and Sun. Again this is taken as a stressful aspect, In this case I'm going with some prior knowledge, to identify this as Martha seeing her father as responsible for the stress and misery caused to her mother and hence herself. For psychological Astrologers this opens up all sorts of dynamics. However, as I'm not a psychoanalyst, I'll leave others to ponder on that one.

So, at this stage and still very tentatively, I see Martha's feelings and need for emotional security focused on material possessions. Given the weakness of the Moon by sign and aspect it is difficult for its energies to be easily expressed. Either they will be buried or they will be exaggerated but not properly integrated. Given Jupiter as the Moon's ruler I would expect the Moon's energies to play an over-exagerated role - the quest for money takes over, or is seen as the holy grail of her life.

isthmus nekoi
13-10-2003, 08:13
As a fellow Sag moon, I may be projecting some of myself onto MS, but anyways, here are my thoughts:

There is a subtle Piscean/Virgo element b/c of the aspect to Neptune, N's placement and Jupiter acting as the depositor. So while the basic nature of MS's moon is Sag, it has contact w/the Virgo-Pisces axis (signs which both square Sag). So the optimism may be underlaid w/some unease. Adaptability though, would be heightened. Together w/4 planets in mutable signs, and a Sun-Pluto conj, such adaptability may have been important to the way MS has lived her life. (Perhaps even necessary? MS has a wide out of sign Mars-Pluto square... as I have this aspect too, I think it carries w/it, a strong desire to basically do whatever it takes not just to survive, but to be who you are. w/Pluto conj Leo sun, again, I see this theme, but again, this could possibly be a projection from myself!)

MS's moon also has a touch of the Aquarian w/an emphasis on communication, w/the 11th house activated, and acting as the apex of a yod b/w Mercury, and Saturn-Uranus. All three planets are associated w/Aquarius. Plus you have Jupiter (depositor) in Gemini, and that square to a Virgo Neptune (virgo ruled by Mercury). I don't know much about yods though...

In terms of 2nd house, I agree b/c of the Piscean connection and Jupiter's placement in 8th that money and possessions are of great importance to MS. The contact w/Saturn-Uran in 7th (Taurus cusping) may represent instability in traditional marriage structures which may have precipitated a strong desire towards independence (Sag) in terms of 2nd house issues.

gloria
13-10-2003, 21:12
Moon in Sag in 2nd house would show a strong need for financial security, and that of being a shrewd businesswoman, although every possibility that her financial conditions could fluctuate. Being in a Succedent house shows she is very much goal orientated.

The Moon very much describes the kind of business she is in too, food and home comforts.

The Moon in Sag. shows her to be highly intuitive, a great boon to her in the different avenues of the business she has pursued, a good idea of what will sell. A restless nature, always having to be on the go. Someone who likes to do things in her own way, and in her own style.

TheMoon is semi-square to Scorpio Asc. and at same time semi-square Ic. I know this aspect is weaker than square, and that it shows friction.

Also sesquare to Sun which I think could show her irritibility towards others and possible health problems?

Saturn ruling Ic. Could mean a rigid and overly strict childhood. Perhaps there were many responsibilities put onto Martha’s shoulders. I would imagine the discipline she learned then is something she has been able to draw from now.

Gloria

gloria
13-10-2003, 21:33
Reading your post Minderwiz I realised I'd missed out Moon square Neptune.

I have just read that this could show, amongst other things, that associates, (business associates?) could prove to be unreliable.

Also a possibility for her to be deceived by women.

I haven't read up on her bio. is there a link on here?

G.

gloria
13-10-2003, 23:20
Have just read the link - "Happy Martha's Day" by Frances Atkinson.

What I found interesting was the seven homes she has, whether or not she has lived in all of them.
I read that many changes of residence are pretty common with Moon in Saggitarius people.
G.

Minderwiz
14-10-2003, 03:29
Gloria,

Neptune's in her eleventh so it would be a female friend rather than a business associate. I tend to take Neptune as self deception rather than deception by others - but unrealistic expectations, hopes and aspirations could well be involved with Neptune in the eleventh and these could relate to friends.

So whilst a friend might not purposefully decieve her she might have unrealistic expectations, which when not fulfilled lead her to believe that she was deceived - she shifts the responsibility.

Moongold
14-10-2003, 05:23
The placement of the Moon in one’s chart is a major indicator of relationship with Mother for any of us according to Liz Greene. Martha’s Moon is in Sagittarius, which is, in turn, ruled by Jupiter, and Martha’s Moon has quite a few significant aspects/transits to Jupiter. Greene speaks a lot about the influence of Jupiter aspects to the shape of the Mother/child relationship but we are not going into those now right? Suffice to say that Martha’s relationship with her Mother would have been really important. Jupiter is inspiring, adventurous and philosophical. Martha could well have brought these subconscious qualities to her successful business life. We can’t speak about the other Jupiter aspects? Jupiter in Gemini in the 9thHouse seems to have a strong oppositional aspect to Moon in Sagittarius ruled by Jupiter. Aagh…….I’m getting confused now. No wonder you said keep it simple!

Besides that, given the second house association with material possessions. Martha clearly acted out that deep drive to achieve economic security. The Mother/home association gives deep poignancy to the fact that she was successful in the home-making area of life. I wonder how all of this personal experience of Moon in Sagittarius impacted on Martha’s mothering of her own daughter? I imagine she herself would have been a very powerful figure in her daughter’s psyche. I guess she would have had to have others involved in the care of her daughter but what is really important is what happens in the early months of life. Whatever, Martha’s Sagittarian Moon may have provided enthusiasm and idealism to her expression of life in business. This may partially explain the attachment US women obviously felt for her. You know folks, I find this woman more and more fascinating. :)

Martha’s Ascendant is Scorpio (here is Pluto again!) and this indicates a deep inner life. You should read what Arroyo says about Scorpio Ascendants! But anyway, Marta’s Moon is semi-square her Ascendant, Scorpio. Martha would have been deeply emotional and very much attuned to people on an emotional level. This may have shown itself in a really intuitive relationship with the American woman, and been a key element in her commercial success. I imagine she could be really stubborn too. Most Scorpios have that capacity I’ve noticed!

Minderwiz
14-10-2003, 07:34
Moongold,

I don't want to overlimit the discussion but as you have realised if we are not careful it can zoom off in all directions, so it might be better to look at Jupiter's role (apart from the link with the Moon) later on.

The Yod is an issue that I'd like to take up - though like Isthmus, I haven't come across it very often so I want to be a little circumspect. The You comprises two quincunxes (Moon / Mercury and Moon / Saturn) with the two planets at the base
(Mercury and Saturn) in sextile to each other.

The key to analysis lies in the quincunxes. This aspect involves planets of different Polarity, element and modality. Sagitarrius is Yang (positive) Mutable Fire, Cancer is Yin (negative) Cardinal Water and Taurus is Yin (negative) Fixed Earth.

The ususal view is that as planets involved in a quincunx have nothing in common if they are to 'get along' one must compromise in favour of the other. In a Yod adjustment to transits of the first quincunx (Saturn) come to quickly and adjustments to the second transit (Mercury) come to slowly. The aim is to find a balance between the two - usually denoted by the mid point of the sextile. Now if Jupiter had been about 12 degrees deeper into Gemini it would have been at that mid point and Jupiter's role in the chart would have been very important but in a real sense that's another story.

Some quincunxes actually do have things in common - for example Aries / Scorpio has Mars ruling both planets and Taurus / Libra has Venus ruling both planets. Traditional Astrology also makes use of where planets lie in relation to the solstice line between 0 degrees Cancer and 0 degrees Leo. Points equidistant, but either side of this line are called Antiscions or Antiscia - and it was treated as being similar to a trine or sextile. The oppositions of Antiscia are called Contrascia - and their effect is similar to an opposition or Square. Now in this chart the Saturn is Contrascion of the Moon. This could suggest a more direct way of letting go of the tension rather than the adjustment necessary through quincunx.

Quincunxes tend to be more mental than action - so the Yod is likely to manifest as frustration, that Martha cannot easily explain, especially as it focuses on the Moon (feelings and intuitive responses) and relate to her material possessions. Perhaps she is never satisfied or feels that there is still something wrong with her material security. She may also have phases where this frustration is strong and others where it is relatively weak. If the contrascion works this is also likely to show up as marriage difficulties or arguments which are more out in the open (at least for Martha).

Moongold
14-10-2003, 07:38
I guess I'm sort of wondering since I wrote the above and remembered what other things had been written. how do we know what aspect of a person's chart predominates?

If we look at Martha's Sun in Fire/Leo/ and her Moon in Fire/Sagittarius it seems obvious doesn't it or is that the wrong way of reaching this conclusion?

And then we look at the Ascendant, which according to Arroyo, modifies the expression of the Solar energy. So the combination of Fire energy and Water depth existed in Martha? She expressed fire energy and beauty in the outside world but retreated into the cool dark waters of her soul in private for occasional respite? Maybe the intuitive understanding of the soul of American women came from these Scorpio caves? Or sometimes when the two combined was there steam .....and how did this manifest? Am I getting too fanciful?

The Moon semi-squaring Martha's Ascendant might activate these
Scorpio traits.

I have an image of some caves in NSW. The outside world is brightly lit, warm and glowing, with the loud calling of cicadas and other creatures of the heat. And not far inside the caves, one finds beautiful watery lakes, lit by man-made beacons of light strapped on to the walls. Light flickers into every corner, but oh....so delicately.....and, one feels, at the choice of this world's creator. Is Martha like this? I don't want to underestimate the influence of the Moon with Martha. She must have an internal world. This highly intelligent woman may have decided simply to keep it to herself.

Moongold
14-10-2003, 07:47
Originally posted by Minderwiz Moongold,

I don't want to overlimit the discussion but as you have realised if we are not careful it can zoom off in all directions, so it might be better to look at Jupiter's role (apart from the link with the Moon) later on.

I am really happy to wait, Minderwiz. Just wondering out loud and I need to be kept on track.

This is a great process. Thanks again.:)

Minderwiz
14-10-2003, 08:23
Thanks Moongold,

Please remember to raise these issues when we hit Jupiter.

One other thing that I have been looking at, which really relates to the Moon is the Arabic Part of the Mother and there is also a Part of the Father. Both Parts are ruled by Saturn, so the experience of both is likely to have been of a restrictive atmosphere and indeed as Saturn can be rather malefic, a troubled or fearful atmosphere.

The Part of the Mother is calculated as ASC + Moon - Venus and is in the fourth House at 26 degrees 30 Aquarius - the Mother is seen as being the mainstay of the home and it is actually squared by its ruler Saturn (which also rules the Part of the Father) so this seems to be a further indicator of domestic problems between father and mother.

dadsnook2000
14-10-2003, 10:22
Hello list. I'm back from a weekend in the rain with 9,000 wet Boy Scouts, many of them being 11-year olds -- they are the most active, least attentive, memory deficient type of boy ever invented. I'm getting too old for sleeping in a gravel pit, in the rain, and chasing boys around all day. Anyone want to tell me when this ends?

Anyways, I've read through the listings once. It looks like everyone has been both busy and focused. That's good because the Moon in Martha's chart will prove to be important. When we found an imbalance of elements or of qualities in her chart, one of the ideas we discussed was "how might she compensate for the imbalance?" The same is true for the Moon -- a Moon that might be weak in some way will likely, as we move through life, find a way to be compensated for. You have started to explore and to discover those ways -- that's great.

At first it seemed hard for some of you to accept my comment about a "weak Moon" but now you see the value of that -- there are other subtle ways for the Moon's needs to come out. That is a tremendous stride forward in understanding both astrology and human nature ! ! ! Congratulations to you all.

I'll read this thread again and see if I can contribute anything to the fine overall thoughts offered here. Then, if there are few other thoughts we'll move on to the next step in a short period of time. Dave.

gloria
14-10-2003, 18:44
I have a Yod in my own chart so will be particularly interested in your ideas about this configuration.

Just a few lines before I get on my way today.

Yod is the Hebrew meaning for “blessed” and there seems to be an air of fate about it, often called the finger of god, or the finger of fate.

So the Moon in 2nd would show Martha’s ultimate challenge and goal in life, but this path would be made difficult by the two inconjunct planets.

Rather like a cross to bear, something that may never be actually resolved.
Gloria

Minderwiz
14-10-2003, 19:20
Dave,

Glad you're back in one piece and not to dispirited!

As you say, the Moon is weak in this chart - we both arrived at this conclusion but for slightly different reasons - I don't really think that the reasoning matters that much, its the conclusion that does matter.

I think at the moment we are at a stage where we have identified the strong Fire and weak Water elements in her chart, we have seen the strongly placed Sun and weak Moon and we have said a little about the Ascendant.

Interestingly the Ascendant is Water. As Moongold says the Ascendant can modify the expression of Solar energy but it cannot alter it substantially. Initially Martha might appear to the world as a somewhat reserved, intense woman with some depth of feeling, However the strong Fire, especially strong Sun and Mars are there below the surface just waiting to burst forth. The 'hidden depths' of Martha are extremely fiery - Martha is a scorpion with sting ready to be unleashed.

If we take Mars as Ascendant ruler - as Mars has harmonious major aspects to Sun, Jupiter and MC and a harmonious minor to Venus. If we take Pluto as the ruler then it's only contacts are the conjunction with the Sun and a sextile to Uranus

The Ascendant point itself has a square to the Sun and sextle to Venus with a biquintile to Jupiter.

We haven't really said that much about how the Ascendant should be integrated into the reading - more about how Sun and Moon connect to it.

In a reading I would be doing myself the next step would be to look at the Ascendant and see if there's any additional information to add, then look at the remaining planets in order to see if there's any additional themes at work and then try to look at the issues that you've raised - how will/can any conflicts or weaknesses be handled.

gloria
14-10-2003, 19:34
Minderwiz, does the fact that the Ascendant is in Via Combusta mean anything here, or would that only apply to a Horary chart?
G.

Minderwiz
14-10-2003, 20:10
Gloria,

My understanding, though its a bit foggy, is that planets are affected in the via combusta (roughly 15 Libra to 15 Scorpio) but not points - and the Ascendant is a point. As there are no planets in the via combusta I don't think we need to worry about it.

On your underlying point, my experience is that modern natal Astrologers do not use the concept - though it is used in horary still. As horary stems from a unified (in the sense that it applied to all branches) approach to Astrology, I would expect that classical natal judgements will have made use of it.

In this chart Pluto is less than 7 degrees from the Sun, so in Classical terms it is 'combust' - a form of debilitation. We could therefore tone down the effects of Pluto in the chart or alternatively treat Pluto as a malevolent planet that will hinder the Sun's expression or cause other problems. Again the use of combust planets in natal Astrology seems to have died out!

gloria
15-10-2003, 05:23
Thanks for that Minderwiz.
G.

dadsnook2000
15-10-2003, 12:17
This thread has done well in its consideration of the Moon in MS's chart. I think we are ready to move on. Again, there are a lot of AE members following this thread even if they are not directly participating. I'll start the next thread BUT it is Ok to continue posting any thoughts relative to this thread that may not have been covered yet. Dave.

Minderwiz
15-10-2003, 20:08
Thanks Dave,

And thanks to all who contributed to the thread. I would second Dave's comment about adding any additional thoughts that come to mind - especially as we proceed through the reading.

Later issues may prompt you to look at the Moon interpretation from a new angle or help you to see the issues relating to the Moon in more depth. I think that also applies to the Sun thread.

dadsnook2000
16-10-2003, 04:59
Several on the list noted Sag's tendancies to promote freedom of expression, travel, things foriegn, etc. One of my pet peeves (dislikes) is the influence of daily Sun-Sign Astrology colums and popular booklets -- I see them as promoting a Sun-in-a-sign meaning as the sign's own meaning.

The Moon symbolizes mood swings, emotions, basic need feelings, responsiveness relative to how aspecting planets help to trigger or drive that instinctive response, women and (in some cases) the public, security of the person and home/nest/territory or country (in some cases).

The Moon in Sag symbolizes, IMHO, a flight from feelings or an attempt to substitute experiences for feelings. The deep experience of emotions and responses of Cancer, the assimilation and supportive feelings of Pisces, and the urge to dig deep into feelings and their causes of Scorpio are forgotten as Moon moves into Sag. There is no time for those feeling things, they detract from excitement and adventure found in ones outer life. Moon takes on freedom, far thinking, philosophical veiws of emotions but not feeling of emotions, an assessment of ones effect on the emotions of others. There is a sense of "playing with affections" or using the emotional responses of other's here. Brusqeness is another apparent attribute of Moon in Sag.

Moon in the second house: Possessions? Somewhat. Personal preferences and value of ones life style or personna? Yes, look at me, look at what I have, why don't you also have it -- this fits with Moon in the 2nd.

SYNTHESIZING these thoughts we might conclude: Martha adores herself and her personal style and image. She hasn't got time to deal with her feelings while being "on stage" or on the road of life and in a hurry to get somewhere. She will tend to be excited by stylish experiences and possessions, she will want to be the leader of her crowd, she will want to influence you. She will play with your values and promote her values.

Just my thoughts. Dave.

Minderwiz
17-10-2003, 00:14
Totally agree with the point on Sun Sign columns - they do create a distorted view.

Moon in Satittarius and second: - yes I see your point and its a really good one. However, The second is our connection with the material world and therefore possessions and finance are quite strong (but not everything, for example it also represents the neck). Jupiter rules here, so I would normally expect someone who is successful at a material level - someone who will become wealthy or may be a collector whose collection grows overtime.

If we treat the second as finance and money, Martha will prosper and become wealthy. Two caveats to this are that Jupiter is not particularly comfortably placed, so things might not run smoothly all the time. Secondly the Moon is here and, as we agree the Moon is weak.

Wealth (or possessions) will fulfil something of an emotional role - the give personal emotional security and also public standing.

Jupiter does rule values - here values will be materially based - Dave's statement 'look at me, see what I have' is spot on - I am 'valuable' because of what I possess, or the wealth I command. As we are dealing with the Moon here this may well exist solely at a subconscious or deeper level. Martha isn't particularly into rubbing people's noses in it. She does however have a sense of self worth and value through her material wealth, which in turn provides her lifestyle.

To the extent that Martha's business is/was owned and controlled by her - the second house receives the money of the business - prosperous business then prosperous Martha.