PDA

View Full Version : Chart Reading: Step #4, Martha Stewart -- ASC & MC, Sun & Moon


dadsnook2000
15-10-2003, 11:31
This is our next step in considering Martha Stewart's chart; looking at the ASC and MC, looking at their relationships with the Sun and Moon.

In this step #4 you should feel free to use classical astrology, mid-points, arabic parts, symbolic degrees, containments, phases or any approach that aids you in understanding and/or sharing with others your thoughts and conclusions.

We will want to leave the other planets not directly involved with the ASC, MC, Sun or Moon to a later thread. We have all been told by numerous authors and lecturers that the ASC degree "colors" the personality and the working of those planets that aspect the ASC. Here, we can determine for ourselves the extent of apparent truth in those claims. You might want to cite a sentance or two from a biography or other writing to support your conclusion.

Again, there is no right or wrong interpretation approach. Your comments in any single posting do not need to be all inclusive. You can just comment on single factors of our discussion or ask questions to clarify a point. Best of all, continue to be curious, to push your limits and to have fun. Dave.

Minderwiz
15-10-2003, 19:11
Apart form a short paragraph relating to her father, I haven't read anything about Martha all I know has been gleaned from comments in these threads - so I'll let Dave or others kick off here whilst I find out something about the woman!

Minderwiz
15-10-2003, 20:15
A couple of PSs

Firstly we haven't talked specifically about the Ascendant up till now, though it has ended up being considered in the Sun and Moon threads. I know Moongold mentioned Arroyo's comments on Scorpio Ascendants but didn't get the chance to follow up on it.

So if you've got any comments that are specifically related to the Ascendant or the MC that you haven't had the opportunity to make up till now - take the chance here!


Secondly, I suspect we may be using different House systems for the analysis of Martha. This hasn't caused any issue up till now and I think it's good to use different House Systems so that we can see if using a different system affects our interpretation.

However it might be worth knowing what House Systems each of us is using, so I'm going to start a parallel thread in which we can simply state the system we are using. This allows others to cross check any divergencies in interpretation to see if they're related to the House System or not.

You will find the thread at:

http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=18250

gloria
15-10-2003, 23:59
Martha’s Sun squaring her Ascendant shows a conflict between how she sees herself and how others see her.

Her Scorpio Asc would show a very intense and driven woman. Plenty of energy and organisational skills. Leadership powers too, although often the need for power for its own sake. Tendency to dominate others. Jealousy and possessiveness due to emotional insecurities.

Scorpios do tend to be the “dark glasses” type. What with the eyes being the windows of the soul, no-one able to get a look in at those dark, hidden depths.

Howard Sasportas writes “There is a depth to Scorpio rising which compels those who have this placement to burrow their way to the root of an issue in search of underlying meanings and motivations. Nothing is taken at face value. But like Bluebeard’s wife they may open doors which are better left closed”

Gloria.

gloria
16-10-2003, 01:36
I hope I am right in saying that Neptune in Virgo is conjunct the midpoint between Sun and Ascendant.

Would this midpoint show a merging or relationship between Sun and Asc?

Or could it show a subtle whisper of what’s to come?
Gloria.

dadsnook2000
16-10-2003, 04:30
Well, maybe I'm being a little over dramatic. But, the Scorpio influence tends to lead to introspection and delving emotionally into things. Just look at some of the Sun-sign astrology and planet-in-Scorpio stuff we read in newspaper collums:

** Venus in Scorpio is the sign of a jealous lover.
** Mercury in Scorpio pry into your secrets, questions you about everything.
** Mars in Scorpio will step on your foot to see how deeply you can cry.
** Moon in Scorpio worries all day about their nightly dreams.
** Scorpio Sun's dramatize their emotions as a form of leadership.

So, what will a Scorpio Ascendant do in terms of modifying or shaping ones personality and forms of expression? Alternating self-reflecting moods with strong sharing needs expressed through available planetary outlets. A penchant for living within one's feelings and exploration of causes behind the events in their world. Melancholy, insightfullness driven by a deeper sense of awareness than many take time to experience. Pain within a quietude or self-suffering as a means of gaining understanding, retreats followed by adventures of some form.

In Martha's chart the ASC squares the Sun (closely) and Pluto. Using phase relationships (like those in Rudyhars Lunation Cycle) one can view the ASC as being in the opening square -- it has to find the means of permitting the Sun (integration strengths) to shine through her feelings, to put a bright face on things. If one views the Sun as being in the achievement phase (closing square) from the ASC, then the Sun has to produce the proof that she is successful and happy in order to fuel the aspectual bond between them.

This ASC/Scorpio and Sun/Leo combination dominates her approach to life, leaving little up-front room for the Moon and those feelings that everyone has.

The Pluto-ASC square can be looked at in a similar fashion. The personality (ASC) will struggle to deeply understand the world about her and how it works. Pluto, as a re-ordering tool for her to use, will try to demonstrate just how influential her personality can be -- in this case, perhaps -- how influential the Sun/Leo/10th house powerhouse can be. The personality expresses the Leo Sun with the goal of wielding influence.

The Sag-Moon semi-squares the ASC (struggle to cope with the rules) and sesqiquadrates (?) (135 degrees) the Sun (struggles to apply the rules). The Moon is the silent partner to the Sun, it will remain in the background under control. What a problem for a Sag-Moon. It will try to find a "night out with the girls."

Moon squaring Neptune is not typically strong except for the areas of imagination and dealing with illusion and promotion. I'd like to go into that more later, the same with Moon 150 to Saturn.

More later. Dave.

isthmus nekoi
16-10-2003, 09:52
Martha seems to have a strong Scorpio influence (sun conj Pluto, trine Mars, square ASC), although to be honest I wouldn't have guessed it. So there is some strong staying power here. Also, I was mistaken, I thought I saw a square b/w Pluto and Mars, but they're too wide. There is interaction only by proxy - through the sun.

Pluto squaring ASC again brings up the theme of power, and regeneration. Unlike the sun however, ASC emphasizes more the body, persona etc so in this sense, despite having sun square ASC, they share a similar challenge through Pluto.

Scorpio is traditionally ruled by Mars and this is dignified in Aries, in the 5th house. This again emphasizes MS's will and I think, her energy level - it gives her strength to deal w/the ASC squares. Along w/the desire for recognition, success and independence, MS has the energy and tolerance for risk to get there.

Minderwiz
16-10-2003, 23:32
One of the innovations of the modern psychological approach to Astrology is the emphasis placed on the Ascendant and the way in which Water signs, particularly Scorpio are handled.

Psychology is fascinated by the underlying, subconscious or unconscious motives and drives - thus the Ascendant, looked on as the mask we wear or the persona (latin for mask) that we project gives an indication of the underlying 'us'.

Scorpio is a Water sign and thus asssociated with the unconscious, furthermore Scorpio and Pluto are associated with the depths and subterranean levels - here we have access to a person who literally has hidden depths which direct the way in which the interact with the world and which provide a filter for the Sun's energies to interact with the world and others.

Dave provides an excellent analysis on this basis - and I don't think I can improve on it. What I can do is perhaps look at the Ascendant through other eyes. The eyes of the classical or pre-psychological Astrologer.

Now I don't think that this is the 'correct' way and that the psychological approach is wrong. Simply that as we are looking at Astrological method it may well be worth seeing an alternative. In practice both approaches may well yield very useful information for our view of Martha.

In order to keep things manageable, I'll do that as a separate post, however I can't resist taking up one of Dave's points.

Dave used the word 'Melacholy' as one of his descriptors of the Scorpio Ascendant. Now Scorpio is a Water sign - so strictly speaking its humoural association is phlegmatic - Cold and Wet - as opposed to melancholic which is cold and dry.

However, Scorpio is an Autumnal sign and in the Classical Greek Astrologers treated Autumn as Cold and Dry. So on a Seasonal basis Dave's description is just what we might expect through a Classical approach. Scorpio is cold and wet at an elemental level but cold and dry at a seasonal level. Strangely, Capricorn ruled by Saturn, the archetypal Melancholic, is Cold and Dry at an elemental level but Cold and Wet seasonally (its a Winter sign). So we have some link between Scorpio and Capricorn and between their rulers Mars and Saturn. This might prove useful later on.

Minderwiz
17-10-2003, 00:48
There is a substantial body of evidence that the earliest form of house division was the whole sign one. Using Martha as an example, her first house is Scorpio, her second Sagittarius, third Capricorn…..twelfth Libra. It appears that the degree of the rising sign was used by the fifth or sixth centuries AD, probably using an equal house system. The Ascendant point as such though was not particularly important, unless it was aspected by a malefic or a fortunate.

The first house dealt principally with the length of life, the temperament and complexion, the awareness and understanding of the native, the native’s stature and the general fortune and health of the native. The first house indicated general health, the sixth indicated ill health. I use the word ‘principally’ because other factors would be taken into account than just the house – Sun and Moon placements for example would influence the judgement on temperament.

I’m not going to attempt to read Martha’s length of life – I’m not fully conversant with the method and it has obvious ethical implications. The length of life was a real issue in classical and medieval societies, especially in relation to a new born.

Looking at Martha specifically, we first need to know who are the Lords of the Triplicity to which Scorpio belong. I will use the ruler’s attributed by Dorotheus of Sidon and the Arabic Astrologers. For Water these are: Venus, Mars and the Moon in that order. Venus will tell us something of the early part of her life, Mars the middle and the Moon her final years. Together they will give information about health and her rearing. Venus is in the tenth – a strong placement, though Venus is in Detriment in Virgo and has a square to Jupiter – so rather awkward early years but having the potential success. Mars is in the fifth House – a good placement and even better is in its own sign – her middle years will be strong and fruitful. The Moon as we have seen is in the second, which is quite a fair placement but is rather weak in essential dignity and squares her part of fortune. There may be some troubles in the final third of her lifetime which may adversely affect her health or wealth but nothing that foretells disaster.

The Ascendant ruler is Mars, in the fifth. This would classically be interpreted as indicating she will rejoice in her children and have many friends. The Sun is also applying to a trine with Mars and from its own sign of Leo. This is a classical indicator of great power and prosperity for Martha. Here we seem to have further evidence of the potentially successful business woman

As Mars is strongly placed and trined by the Sun, I would expect Martha’s health to be strong. Mars also rules the sixth of ill health, so health problems will be related to the head, she might be accident prone, cuts, wounds, fevers and blood pressure. However none of these ought to be particularly serious given the strength of the ruler of the Ascendant.

For temperament I’m taking something of an informed guess in saying she is a choleric person. With Ascendant ruler and Sun and Moon in fire and a Summer birth that seems a reasonable guess. The choleric temperament (earth) usually has a warm, dry, rectangular or square body, tight connective tissue, yellowish complexion, and are practical and rational, yet prone to anger, irritability, and impatience. We can add possible issues relating to gall bladder, liver, digestive and eliminative systems to the health list. Again though, I would doubt that these are serious.

This is only a passing attempt at using classical methods - space and the lack of my own skills in this area restrict the extent to which I can supplement this through the use of Arabian Parts, which are often based on the Ascendant degree (where the degree does begin to become important).

dadsnook2000
17-10-2003, 02:45
Just a quick comment or two. First, I'm really enjoying the range of discussion and comments here. This is how we learn, and the approaches that Minderwiz and I take are both quite different and yet similar. Thats life, thats astrology. We can only practice this craft through our experience, our understanding, our ability to bring learning and sensitivity to those we come in contact with. In fact, we may largly be shaped by those that come to us.

When I see Scorpio ascendant signs I expect to see an angular, strong nose and chiseled lips. When I see Pluto conjunct the Ascendant degree I expect to see a longer head shape, close set and intense eyes, a thin nose in some cases. I first read about these attributes in a Alan Leo book from the early 1900's and have found them to be quite perceptive and applicable.

In Martha's chart, the expected ASC attributes are not obviously there. She has some aspects of the Leo Sun, perhaps some of the thinness associated with Pluto. Her manner is one of smiles and a sense of quiet nuturing sensitivity -- a complex softness that suggests understanding, guidance, patience, firmness. Others may be able to express this better than I. I just wanted to bring up some discussion on how the ASC degree might be expressed. Dave.

Minderwiz
17-10-2003, 03:04
I'm pleasantly surprised at how differing approaches are leading to similar conclusions. No one approach is right, despite the views of one or two 'experts' out there.

As Dave says a diversity of views leads to a more considered review and analysis.

I've no idea what Martha looks like - does anyone know of an internet link to a photo?

M-Press
17-10-2003, 03:23
Hi!
It's funny how among my friends I'm considered an "expert" in astrology, and here I feel like a baby , learning to...crowl!

Thanks so much for all these insighful comments and discussussions!
Some of the recent comments , reminded me the following:
- Scorpio Asc: I see those as people who when you first meet the, they need to first observe, feel the ground, evaluate the situation, and only then they act.
When I saw Martha on TV, although she has that "shiny Leo look", when interviewed, one can see that she first waits to hear "all the facts", and then she bursts in, in mighty confidence, but never before she has figured out where she stands. (so, the scorpio ASC controlls the uncontrollable Mars in Aries)...

Dave wrote: "When I see Scorpio ascendant signs I expect to see an angular, strong nose and chiseled lips."
I never saw that as a Scorpio ASC, although now that i think of it that way, I can already think of a few.
BUT, i myself have a whole "philosophy" about people with such characteristics (unaware of their rising): These are usually people, that while your interests are mutual, they are your best "back" and friend. If their interests shift though, they are exactly those to stub you in the face and in the heart!
Is that about the "all or nothing" scorpio approach? Just putting it out there... I've had this "theory" for years...

dadsnook2000
17-10-2003, 04:40
Minderwiz has asked about Martha and what she looks like. I can suggest the following sites:

www.cnn.com/CNN/Programs/People/Shows/Stewart/Profile.html

This profile offers pictures, biographical background and comments on her father, a gallery of pictures. EDITED: In the above URL, once I posted it, the full address didn't print. The middle portion should read /People/Shows/Stewart/Profile.html I guess the URL was just too long. Dave. END OF EDIT.

www.marthatalks.com

This site has a personal letter from Martha and is frequently updated. It doesn't show many photos but it has a personal letter showing her mode of expression.

Dave.

Minderwiz
17-10-2003, 06:29
Thanks for the links Dave.

The pictures aren't that good to judge facial characteristics but from the accompanying article on CNN website it does sound as though she is definitely Choleric! - if the accounts are true there's definitely anger, irritability and impatience!

gloria
18-10-2003, 00:22
Posted by gloria on 13-10-2003 11:33:
Reading your post Minderwiz I realised I'd missed out Moon square Neptune.

"I have just read that this could show, amongst other things, that associates, (business associates?) could prove to be unreliable.

Also a possibility for her to be deceived by women."


Posted by Minderwiz on 13-10-2003 17:29:
"Gloria,

Neptune's in her eleventh so it would be a female friend rather than a business associate. I tend to take Neptune as self deception rather than deception by others - but unrealistic expectations, hopes and aspirations could well be involved with Neptune in the eleventh and these could relate to friends.

So whilst a friend might not purposefully decieve her she might have unrealistic expectations, which when not fulfilled lead her to believe that she was deceived - she shifts the responsibility."



It would seem she has been let down by a male business associate.
Douglas Faneuil has agreed to a plea-deal Oct 3rd in which he admitted to passing on the insider tip. In exchange for plea he is expected to testify against MS.
He was a friend (11th house) at one time I would imagine.

Her being deceived by women would surely be apt, considering her husband had a number of affairs, one being Ms’s aide.

Gloria.

dadsnook2000
18-10-2003, 02:53
Some great views, Gloria. As I've always said, "If you have options then exercise them all." A Jupiterian view that applies to astrological symbolism -- sooner or later all/most options will show up in how ones experiences or expresses one's chart.

This is especially easy to see in the charts of public figures as they live out the energy of their charts very strongly. Its only the couch potatoes that sit home year after year and complain that nothing ever happens for them. Have you ever done a chart for a person who thinks life is a spectator sport? I'm glad M-press suggested this chart, we are getting a lot out of it. Dave.

Minderwiz
18-10-2003, 04:01
Just a quick marker for future discussion.

MS has Uranus in the seventh and I know that a number of modern Astrologers, such as Carol Rushman, take that as a possible sign of divorce.

The argument being that the native (Martha) requires to maintain their own individuality and idiosyncratic expression in a relationship. This demand for substantial independance eventually leads to a breakdown in the relationship.

Now I gather from the CNN link that Martha is indeed divorced and given gloria's comments about her husband's affairs - perhaps we could look at her relationships when we get round to Venus (ruler of the seventh) and/or Saturn and Uranus (both in the seventh).

Back on the theme of Ascendant and MC, It occured to me that there aren't very many books devoted to the Midheaven as such. One that I do have is by Stephanie Jane Clement - The Power of the Midheaven. So I thought it might contribute to the discussion if I use her approach and also contrast it with a traditional approach to the MC. Both will give some useful insights or supporting evidence for the ideas we have formed up to now.

gloria
18-10-2003, 17:55
I mentioned the midpoint (Sun and Asc.) conjunction with Neptune a couple of posts back.

I would imagine it to be important in the chart (please tell me if that isn't so), but as I have no idea how midpoints are interpreted, I wonder if you could throw some light on the subject.

Hope I'm not jumping the gun here, I don't mean to.

Gloria.

gloria
18-10-2003, 19:02
I’ve always been a bit jumbled in my mind as to Asc and Midheaven definitions.

But I think I go along with the Midheaven being our goal in life, not necessarily in terms of career, it could show our personal or spiritual aims.

And the Ascendant shows the way, or how we will go about achieving that goal.

What I find interesting is the tendency for us to identify and admire the qualities of the sign on the Midheaven, whether or not we have those qualities ourselves.
This makes me think that we must, even if it’s on an unconscious level, be continually striving to reach our Midheaven status.

Gloria.

Minderwiz
18-10-2003, 19:47
High aspirations coupled with persistence, can endure through all sorts of challenges. There’s a desire to achieve social status, they want to be at the top. Lots of self confidence, ability to lead, and excellent organisational skills.

But the can be hypersensitive to humour, may take jokes seriously and thus may take offence at a humorous jibe (taken from Ebertin). Also very loathe to change their minds, rather withdraw from a discussion altogether - refuse to play again till the rules are changed. Can respond to situations with sustained effort. Can bring dignity to any situation and indeed demand dignity from others in formal and informal situations. Also they can strip dignity from friend or foe with one sentence or one word. Can use this to control others but probably only as a last resort – its not true Leo leadership.

She has her Midheaven in the middle of Leo – the neurosis common to the pure fixed sign is the ability to avoid inconvenient facts about change – this manifests through a fear of change – a better approach is to create space to allow change to occur and to act in a magnanimous way when doing so and to encourage it in others. Alice Bailey is quoted as saying Leos function through sensitivity. Hypersensitivity is a pivotal problem with Leo Midheavens and they begin to have a positive affect on the world when they have been personally affected by the world.

I would expect that aspects to the MC will modify the reading. In Martha’s case she has the Sun conjunct the MC (as already noted), Mars is trine the MC from Aries where it is dignified and the MC is sextiled by Jupiter. All of these strengthen the MC, the link between creativity and the MC, suggesting that she will make a career out of her creativity and possibly business expansion. The Mars trine suggests that her career may be closely linked to her personal creativity, may be linked to her hobbies, how she relaxation, or her other interests – which suggests a career related to the leisure market. The fifth also rules her children so possibly her children may indirectly lead to her career or be involved in her career in someway. Jupiter in the eighth may have a slightly negative to potentially very negative effect. The eighth is the House of taxes! So there may be an ‘easy’ approach to tax returns or tax liability may grow quickly. Jupiter needs to be directed and kept under control to ensure that eighth matters do not grow out of proportion.

The MC is also biquintile to the Part of Fortune. I’d actually be careful of this as neither the MC or the Part of Fortune reflect light, so arguably this is not a true Aspect. However the Part of Fortune does lie in Pisces, ruled by Jupiter and as we have seen Jupiter does aspect the MC. The Part of Fortune covers her health as well as her success in life. Jupiter’s rulership from the eighth perhaps suggests again that success will again depend on other people’s money, commercial activity, creativity.

Minderwiz
19-10-2003, 04:48
Having tried a modern reading of Martha’s MC, I’ll have a go at a classical one and see what that comes up with. I’ve based this on the 9th Century Arab Astrologer Abu Ali Al-Khayyat.

Firstly we look at the lord of the tenth (the Sun in Martha’s case) and the lord of the Ascendant (Mars) and see if there is any relationship between them. In this case both are in their own signs and are connected by a trine – the conclusion is that Martha will have a kingdom and great power (for kingdom read business empire). As the Sun (lord of the tenth) is applying to Mars (lord of the Ascendant) – kings and princes (presidents and senators) will summon her unasked (ask for her advice) she will certainly move in high circles being prosperous and powerful.

Al-Khayyat says that the profession is shown by the planet oriental (east) from the Sun and occidental (West) of the Moon and in either the Ascendant or MC. In Martha’s case this is Venus in Virgo in the tenth. In the book I’ve got Al-Khayyat inconveniently says there are professions associated with Venus but neglects to say what they are (he assumes I already know). According to Al-Biruni, another Arab Astrologer, Venus professions involve Works of beauty and magnificence, fond of bazaars, commerce, measuring by weight, length and bulk; dealing in pictures and colours, goldsmiths work, tailoring, manufacturing perfumes, dealing in pearls, gold and silver ornaments, musk, white and green clothes, maker of crowns and diadems, accompanying singing, composing songs, playing the lute, feasts, games and gaming.

Lilly saw Venus professions as:

'Musitions, Gamesters, Silk-men, Mercers, Linnen-Drapers, Painters, Jewellers, Players, Lapidaries, Embroiderers, Women-tailors, Commodities which adorn Women either, in Body (as Cloaths) or in Face, (as complexion-waters.)'

This seems quite a variety of things, so I’d be interested to know how far the US members see these as fitting Martha.

Venus is also exactly in opposition to her Part of Divorce – is this an indicator that divorce will result, most likely through work consuming her time?

I’ve already commented on her Part of Fortune in the fifth House. Her Part of Vocation and Status is in the second – seemingly linked to possessions and money – which suggests she is likely to be seen as a trader or a moneymaker. It’s ruled by Saturn from the Seventh. Saturn is in it’s own decanate so it has some dignity but it still suggests that there may be some hard work in achieving the promised success – things might not come as easy as the other indicators seem to show.

dadsnook2000
19-10-2003, 05:55
Venus also brings qualities of balance, harmony, and is associated with adornments and appearance. Martha's line of products are color coordinated -- towels match hand cloths and bath rugs, pillow covers match sheets and bedroom curtains, plates and napkins are coordinated, etc. Her food preparation TV shows offer coordinated food courses, all carefully planned for ease-of-preparation and attractiveness. Every aspect of her commercial offerings is in harmony and supports all other parts of her product lines. Dave.

Minderwiz
19-10-2003, 06:34
Thanks Dave,

Strangely, Stephanie Jane Clement simply kept to the Midheaven by sign and didn't consider any planets within the tenth. Rather as some Astrologers just consider the sign of the Ascendant and only go on to modify things when looking at the first house.

As Venus was coming up in the Traditional view, I left it to them to comment.

As you say, the products are clearly Venusian in nature and do follow the harmony/beauty/balance principle. What you describe is an excellent twentieth century application. I think both modern and traditional Astrology would take up Venus in the tenth.

A problem using a traditional approach is the clear culture and economic differences between the ninth and twentieth centuries. I doubt the average ninth century homemaker went in for easy to prepare meals and colour co-ordinated linens. But the rich merchants and nobles would have gone in for well designed and colour co-ordinated fabrics. She may have changed the clientele and the product base a little but the traditional Astrologers did come up with some products which seem to be reasonable hits.

They came up with colours (colour co-ordinated) linen and a Mercer is a dealer in textiles and fabrics , they suggested 'feasts' and that does seem to fit the TV shows theme, and the came up with drapery.

Has she tried out any perfumes, or cosmetics?

dadsnook2000
19-10-2003, 10:15
REPLY TO MINDERWIZ
I'm not knowledgable about perfumes and toiletries, etc., offered by Martha Stewart. However, the old classical interpretations do have a drama inherent in them that is some times lacking in more modern comments. Of course, life was harsher then, shorter, and more likely to have external-unforeseen events thrust upon one's person. Today we live in a more predictable, ordered, longer life experience that has more variation possible -- the interpretations have to either be broader or be related to a dialog between the astrologer and client in order to be specific.

SUN IN THE 9th, MOON IN THE 2nd.
A friend and mentor, Robert Pellitier (Planets in Houses, Para Research, 1978) wrote an extensive book which is probably the most under-appreciated reference text of all time. The book examines derivitive houses and provides comments on all of the planets plus Sun-Moon combinations by house and derived house. I'd like to extract a few of his comments for us to consider.

"You will always be able to distinguish yourself as long as you can prove that your accomplishments are valuable. You tend to overextend yourself . . . There is a constant struggle between your desire to assert yourself, confident that success will naturally follow, and your apprehensions about personal or material security. In time, circumstances offer a reasonaably high probability of success."

Now, since we have entertained the idea that the Sun is angular and has a 10h house influence, lets look at SUN IN THE 10th, MOON IN THE 2nd as a comparison.

"Your ambition is stimulated when you realize that there are many available opportunities through which you can exploit your creative potentials and gain a position with greater social status. You know that this will require a lot of hard work, but you willingly accept this, determined to gain the greatest yield from your efforts, for you have decided there is no other way to achieve the material security you want. . . . You believe you can offer the world something of value. . . . Your early conditioning was important in your rise to prominence because your parents, especially your father, served as a catalyst to seek the best use of your potentials. . . . management is best suited to your temperment . . . "

If one were to take these words, written 25 years ago, as a good interpetation of Sun in the 9th and Sun in the 10th relative to the Moon in the 2nd, then it offers something important for us to consider.

Consider this: The sign on the cusp of an angle, ASC or MC, will bring all of the planets in that sign into that angular house. This statement can be valid if you compare the 9th and 10th house Sun interpretations given. For Martha, the 10th house SUN fits better with her reported life facts than does the 9th house SUN. Now, we have to examine our own charts and other's charts to see if it is valid to move a cadent house planet "forward" when the sign reaches into the angular house. Comments? Dave.

Minderwiz
19-10-2003, 19:34
Dave,

Thanks for those interesting extracts - really food for thought.

Working backward :)

'The sign on the cusp of an angle brings planets in that sign into that angular house.' - This seems close to the very old whole sign house method (though that was Ascendant based) - For Martha with a Scorpio Ascendant her tenth on whole signs is Leo, so all Leo planets would be considered as 10th House on this old method and that fits with the view you describe.

On whole sign houses, the tenth and the second are trined - so we would expect planets in the second to work easily with planets in the tenth - we could therefore treat the Sun as being Trine the Moon - indeed before the advent of more accurate measurements that relationship between Sun in Leo and Moon in Sagittarius would have been the perceived aspect. If the Moon is the relationship to the public then here we have a desire for a career that brings public recognition. The Sun is the father figure - but the mother provides the framework (the tenth is the house of the mother) in which rearing takes place. Fire signs here provide the drive and adapatbility to succeeed.

From our considerations up to now, I think your view of the tenth / second Sun and Moon is a good one.

Minderwiz
19-10-2003, 19:49
Dave

This thread seems to have settled into a discussion between the two of us, and while there may be some more interesting things to say, it might also be worth launching the next thread.

We could either go planet by planet - Mercury through to Pluto or we could 'bunch' them a little - either in pairs or take the remaining personals - Mercury, Venus and Mars, to gether and then either Jupiter and Saturn as a pair followed by the outer planets or take the non-personals as a bunch.

I don't mind how we sequence them - but as we work our way through we will probably find less and less new things to say - because each planet has aspect or other links which we will be talking about as we go.

dadsnook2000
19-10-2003, 22:54
Yes, its time to move on. I'll start the next thread. I believe that the dialog between us in the latter stages of each thread is helpful to the many viewers-but-non-participants as the comments by all of the participants are in the earlier stages of each thread.

I like to challenge my way of thinking and the approach that others take as a means of getting a more playful approach into the use of astrology. I believe your "grouping" suggestion would be most appropriate, so I'll launch the next step in a few hours.

Meanwhile, this thread can still be posted to even after we start the next thread. Dave.

Minderwiz
19-10-2003, 23:24
Originally posted by dadsnook2000

I like to challenge my way of thinking and the approach that others take as a means of getting a more playful approach into the use of astrology.



I think that is a very good approach - one of the problems as we get into Astrology is that we tend to fall into routines and switch off to possible new (or old) techniques which might help. Challenging assumptions and methods makes us question our methods and procedures. We learn more, even if we come to the conclusion that we were on the right lines to begin with :)

isthmus nekoi
20-10-2003, 11:33
quick notes:

- Martha's progressed sun would have been in 10th roughly since she was 8 yrs old after which it will have been in 10th for a significant amount of time, during which it would have conj her natal Venus.

- Minderwiz, the products Martha creates are for homemakers, and in America, this is largely a female demographic (VEnus). She also has a show which involves cooking and throwing parties, and home decor.