Aeclectic Tarot Forum - Jerry Kay Book of Thoth Tarot

The Vortex

29-10-2003, 17:34

Well, you lot weren't much help!
Here's what I've managed to find out -

the Jerry Kay tarot is very difficult to get hold of. Probably there were not many printed; the interest for tarot was not that great when it appeared. Only known copies are in Stuart Kaplan's and Frank Jensen's collections.
The deck was published in 1968 by Xeno Productions (which I believe was Jerry Kay's own company). A number of the majors are illustrated in Kaplan encyclopaedia vol. III. pg. 117-119 (even though the reduction in size does not do good to them; the original deck are relatively large).

Trev.

The Vortex

05-11-2003, 18:19

Ever get the feeling your talking to yourself....

I've managed to get a scan of 4 of the major arcana from the Jerry Kay book of Thoth tarot, it's here:- www.geocities.com/vftcult/JerryKay.bmp
(Sorry it's big)
Hope you like them.
Trev.

truthsayer

05-11-2003, 22:14

vortex,
sorry no one responded to your post. i for one, have never heard of this deck. thank-you for the website. we all love to look at rare and heretofore unheard of decks. wish you luck in finding a copy. perhaps if you contact tarot garden, jeannette or lorie may be able to help you find a copy through their sources.

http://www.tarotgarden.con

Cerulean

05-11-2003, 23:11

Sometimes I find things in out of way old bookstores. I will email you if I ever do see anything for a good price.

Mari H.

The Vortex

06-11-2003, 15:27

Thanks for your replies Truthsayer and Mari, I have found a copy of the deck, that's where the scans are from but 10 of the major arcana are colored in, and not to well done either, so I am still looking for a set,
I would be very interested in peoples thoughts on the cards so please take a look at them and let me know.
www.geocities.com/vftcult/JerryKay.bmp
Trev.

Cerulean

06-11-2003, 20:09

Kay, Jerry
The Book Of Thoth
Los Angeles, CA: Xeno Publications, 1968. Boxed tarot deck with booklet previous owner has colored eleven cards from the major arcanum (not bad). Bookseller Inventory #p658
Price: US$ 43.00 (Convert Currency)
Bookseller: Occult Bookstore, Chicago, IL, U.S.A. (Search this Seller's Books)(Ask Bookseller a Question).

I don't mind black and white comic book art or decks that try to mix their symbolisms. However since I tend to favor historic or engravings that remind me of Italian designs, this reminded me of a deck that I gave away, Arcus Arcanum.

If you check scans of the Visconti Gold, you might see the artist/author did incorporate traditional symbolism as well as later esoteric ones--I am guessing some of the other symbols refer to glyphs with 'tree of life/kabbalah'associations? I'm not certain if its the Etteilla or Golden Dawn school of Egyptology.

I'll check Kaplan after my evening class, but my first take was this wasn't from my favorite Milanese/Marseilles or Thoth workalikes....best wishes on your searches!

Mari H.

The Vortex

07-11-2003, 17:07

Hi Mari,
Yes those were the cards I bought!
Thanks for the references to simillar decks I'll check them out.
The booklet that came with the cards lists the sybolism of every aspect of evey major arcana card, interesting reading.

Trev.

Rusty Neon

27-03-2005, 14:07

This has been a useful thread. I'm bumping it, hopefully for more comments. If anyone else has more information about this deck (e.g., history, iconography, closeness of pip card images to GD Book T description, etc.), it would be appreciated.

Some eBay images enclosed.

Does anyone have scans of the pip cards?

Thanks.

Rusty Neon

27-03-2005, 14:14

http://www.tarotpassages.com/mkgtimeline.htm
A Timeline of the Occult and Divinatory Tarot from 1750 to 1980

1968/70 The Book of Thoth: The Ultimate Tarot by Jerry Kay published by Xeno Publications, 6311 Yucca St., Los Angeles, CA. Deck and booklet. B&W. Available as both 22 and 78 card decks, either in booklet form or as card deck.

Fulgour

26-12-2006, 05:30

Also curious... any recent news? :) Thanks!

Rosanne

26-12-2006, 07:25

Fulgour

26-12-2006, 07:41

The card backs are very interesting too:

Emily

26-12-2006, 08:07

Now I am very confused. I looked in Kaplan at this deck and it said 1968. Now the Thoth deck of Lady Harris was unpublished until 1969. So who is Jeremy Kay? His deck looks like another version of the Thoth of Lady Harris. Who copied who? Was the Thoth of Lady Harris available to view for some? I have been looking at the Projective Geometry that was suggested by jmd and to me that is the driving force behind Lady Harris's Thoth, if you compare the two decks. Are there any more such like decks out there? ~Rosanne

I'm not really much into Thoth history but wasn't the deck first used to illustrate Crowleys 'Book of Thoth' - then made into the deck in 1969? Maybe this Jeremy Kay published his deck based on the Thoth in 1968 not realising that a year later Crowleys Thoth would be published. When was 'The Book of Thoth' first published.?

Fulgour

26-12-2006, 10:26

When was 'The Book of Thoth' first published.?"The Book of Thoth" was actually a magazine article,
with a 'first edition' on 220 copies published in 1944.
I strongly doubt that it was illustrated at that time.

According to the MKG timeline:

1944 The Book of Thoth by Aleister Crowley.
Also a very limited edition of the cards produced
in monochromatic brown.

1969 Publication of the Thoth deck through the auspices
of Grady McMurtry. The photography is not very good,
distorting the colors (Llewellyn or Weiser)

http://www.tarotpassages.com/mkgtimeline.htm

Rosanne

26-12-2006, 18:19

Some of the cards are distinctly alike- some not so alike. I find the 22 majors of Jeremy Kay very interesting. If he had seen the Harris deck and wished to copy it- I would have found more similiarities I am sure. Emily might be right as to not knowning about the publishing date of The Harris Thoth. Or-maybe the interest after Kay was high and then someone suggested "hey lets publish the Harris Thoth" There is a common basis and I guess it must be the Book of T. I enlarged the first two cards of Kaplan and the same cards of Harris Thoth for comparison. Harris Thoth looks like Projective Geometry was used on an already designed model/or Kay removed the projective Geometry in his illustrations. Interesting Neh? ~Rosanne

Aeon418

26-12-2006, 18:32

"The Book of Thoth" was actually a magazine article,
with a 'first edition' on 220 copies published in 1944.
I strongly doubt that it was illustrated at that time.
:laugh:
Sorry Fulgour, the first editions of the The Book of Thoth were, and are, beautifully produced hardbacks. The contents are identical to the modern paperback edition.

http://666books.com/Firsts/thothfin.JPG

Fulgour

26-12-2006, 22:23

:laugh: Sorry Fulgour, the first editions of the The Book of Thoth were, and are, beautifully produced hardbacks. The contents are identical to the modern paperback edition.[/url]Sor-r-r-r-y :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: Aeon418, there was a world war,
you see, and drugs were being used for needy things
so cold turkey Crowley winged a frenzied jibberjabber
and could only get it in print by doing so in his journal.

Fulgour

26-12-2006, 22:38

This is a set of Tarot cards and a 64 page booklet, The Book of Thoth: the Ultimate Tarot by Jerry Kay published by XENO Publications 1968, 1969. These cards and booklet are in mint condition. They are 4 inches by 6 inches. The booklet is the same size as the cards and is contained in the same plastic case. These cards are in black and white and were intended to be colored by the owner. There are no marks on any card or in the booklet. The plastic case has a piece of tape and a crack on the front. 78 cards, booklet and case. It's in the mail...;)

Rosanne

26-12-2006, 22:55

Hehehe "Cold Turkey Crowley".
Anyways if I had had the sense to turn back the page from Kaplan- I would have seen a paragraph about Jeremy Kay's Book of Thoth Deck.
At the time that Jeremy Kay designed his book of Thoth Tarot, Aleister Crowley's Book of Thoth was not widely available to the public.
So I take it that Kay was an 'insider'?
The Artist wished to create a deck that was similiar in concept and imagery to Crowley's work, while being artistically distinct from the art created FOR Crowley by Lady Freida Harris.
Strange is it not, that if he (Kay) was an insider he published his deck before Harris's was published.
The intricate, gracefully drawn black and white cards are generally quite different from those of Crowley(surely they mean Harris????) although the influence is clear in such cards as 11 Priestess and 1 Magus.
There are others that look like are copied from Harris, without the geometry angle-= maybe both had another source of illustration to draw from?

The author redrew the 0 The Fool in 1980, and it is clear he wished to depart from Crowley tarot in his new design.
I wonder why?
I would like to know more about Mr Jeremy Kay. Does anyone know any more?~Rosanne
Yay Fulgour you lucky little...... delver?

Fulgour

26-12-2006, 23:06

Hi :) Rosanne! I think the 1980 version of The Fool
was a separate project, and just a single piece job.

Maybe he designed it with himself as the model? :)
It seems like the fun sort of a thing artists will do.

Aeon418

27-12-2006, 05:07

Sor-r-r-r-y :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: Aeon418, there was a world war,
you see, and drugs were being used for needy things
so cold turkey Crowley winged a frenzied jibberjabber
and could only get it in print by doing so in his journal.
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh::laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
That's what I like about you Fulgour. You never let the facts get in the way of a good yarn. :laugh:

A little bit of research would have revealed that the original edition of The Book of Thoth was printed on hand made paper, and therefore exempt from wartime paper restrictions. ;)

Emily

27-12-2006, 06:40

So that's probably what happened then - Jeremy Kay's deck is a Thoth clone. And he would have seen the images from the book, got his deck in print before Crowley's Thoth.

It might even be classed as the first Thoth clone deck. :)

Rosanne

27-12-2006, 06:54

Hi Emily! It would seem so- that it is a clone. The first inspiration, as I know nothing about Mr Kay- might have come from Crowley's Journal called The Equinox: Book of Thoth -A Short Essay on the Tarot of the Egyptians, Equinox Volume III, No.V. (I understand there were 10 issues) Then he expanded that and self published in 1944 The Book of Thoth to go with the Cards painted by Freida Harris. I will wait until Fulgour receives his deck and see what the LWB says. Interesting, as I did not know the Thoth was ever cloned. ~Rosanne

Emily

27-12-2006, 07:10

If Fulgour gets a few more scans up, it will be interesting to see the Minors.

The deck might even take the award for being the first ever clone deck to be published before the original. LOL

Aeon418

27-12-2006, 07:23

might have come from Crowley's Journal called The Equinox: Book of Thoth -A Short Essay on the Tarot of the Egyptians, Equinox Volume III, No.V. (I understand there were 10 issues) Then he expanded that and self published in 1944 The Book of Thoth to go with the Cards painted by Freida Harris.
Not quite. The Book of Thoth actually is the Equinox vol III, no.V.

Volume I, no.1 - 10: The Review of Scientific Illuminism was classed as a journal because of it's bi-annual publication. This is despite the fact that each number was hardback and over 200 pages each! (Sometimes 400+ pages.)

Volume 2 is classed as a volume of silence for obvious reasons. :laugh:
Volume 3, No.1 was Crowley's attempt to restart the Equinox series. But due to various financial problems and hysterical persecution of OTO members in Detroit, No.2 was never published and only survives as galley proofs.

After this the Equinox was continued in a rather sporadic fashion. Some of Crowley's later books were released under the imprint of the Equinox, even though they have little in common with the original Equinox, which was a mixture of magical instruction, plays, short stories, book reviews etc., etc. The editions after Vol III, No.2 are all books in their own right. No.3 The Equinox of the Gods, No.4 Eight Lectures on Yoga, No.5 The Book of Thoth, No.6 Liber Aleph, No.7 Shih Yi (I Ching), No.8 The Tao Teh King, No.9 The Holy Books of Thelema. Some of these weren't even published in Crowley's life time.

Fulgour

27-12-2006, 12:44

That's what I like about you Fulgour. You never
let the facts get in the way of a good yarn.Whilst I am a member of this forum, I am not
the topic of this thread, or any of the others
where you follow my posts with like mockery.

I am uncomfortable with you making me the
subject of your posts and would prefer that
you direct your comments to the discussion.

...do you have "The Ultimate Tarot" by Kay?
do you have the book that comes with it...?

Aeon418

27-12-2006, 13:21

Whilst I am a member of this forum, I am not the topic of this thread, or any of the others where you follow my posts with like mockery.
The trouble is that you repeatedly make statements about the Book of Thoth/Crowley that bear no relation to the actual facts. I know that you dislike Crowley. That's ok. :) But skewing well known historical facts because of this is a little dodgy. ;)

Fulgour

27-12-2006, 13:59

The trouble is that you repeatedly make statements about the Book of Thoth/Crowley that bear no relation to the actual facts. I know that you dislike Crowley. That's ok. :) But skewing well known historical facts because of this is a little dodgy. ;)Who's facts... yours?

As we see here: Jerry Kay wrote and published
"The Book of Thoth" (with Tarot cards) in 1968.

Insert facts [ HERE ] and let's get on with it! :laugh:

Rosanne

27-12-2006, 15:45

Hehehe Fulgour, OCD Moths with winking tics are attracted to the light- darting about, flapping their wings, spreading Moth dust- but they cannnot stay away from the light. Metaphorically speaking- when one lands on your palm- Clap hands! .....but to stay on topic have you any idea the age or Birthdate of Mr Kay? I have only found the Kaplan bit about him. ~Rosanne