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Tallarico
16-11-2003, 23:46
Hi all,

My question; When I look at my natal chart (just signs and planets, sometimes w/houses) without including aspects (because I am a beginner/novice), I often don't seem like I should be, according to the chart! I wonder how much does life experience change us from the natal chart or does it not and I am missing something?

Leo Sun, Asc
Aries Moon
Cancer Merc
Gemini Venus
Virgo Mars

Thanks,
Karen

dadsnook2000
17-11-2003, 03:29
If you can't identify with your chart, based on the statement made, I would suspect three areas to investigate.

FIRST, there is the possibility that your Ascendant degree is wrong. This could be due to confusion over the time zone in effect at the place you were born or the recorded birth time is incorrect.

SECOND, you may have been born in one location and then have moved to your present location where you have either lived for a long period of time or where you strongly have identified with. This would, in effect, give you a new birth location.

THIRD, your aspect patterns may be highly significant, so much so that the text-book description of signs and houses are not as appropriate. You need to look for conjunctions, square and oppositions primarily.

Dave.

Tallarico
17-11-2003, 04:03
Thanks for your help!
Well, I know my birth time is correct. : )
I've had a natal done 3 times by diff ppl, every program and website says Leo. Even with the Daylight savings time fiasco! (I hate it)
I was born in Kansas, however Dad was in the Airforce, then flew for TWA, so I moved quite a bit, (12 times by age 12!)
So I could check the birth chart using NJ where I live now...



While I am alot like a Leo and look like one, not much like an AriesI tend to be more like a Cancer in social situations! Perhaps Mercury explains that. And also like a Cancer when I have been wronged...

Do year progression charts affect your mood/behavior/attitude?
Karen

Minderwiz
17-11-2003, 05:05
As Dave has pointed out it's possible that re-location has had an effect and there is a school of thought in Astrology that argues relocation has the effect of altering the chart (the planets remain in their natal positions but the houses alter - as the Ascendant is dependent on your birth location.

The birth chart shows potential at birth - it is possible to work with the challenges and adapt your behaviour - the birth chart is not a predestination.

It seems that the charts you have had done are accurate, however if you wish to post your birth details

time (hh/mm)
Date (dd/mm/yyyy)
and place (location)

Dave or I or one of the others can have a look to see if there is any clear reason why the chart does not 'work'

Tallarico
17-11-2003, 05:44
Ok, I guess I could... : )
meanwhile I'll check it out in my current location and see what I get. (on a website)


August 1, 1961
5:11 am
Salina, Kansas
(Saline County, USA)

Thanks!

WoW: edited to add: I went to alabe.com for a free chart and put in my data. I got Cancer rising, and a few different planet/house positions.
I live now in Toms River, NJ USA.

I find this so fascinating! I didn't know things could change depending on (house) moves and things!

Minderwiz
18-11-2003, 06:38
Well the issue of a relocation is debatable, though I must admit I find the subject fascinating.


If the move has an effect it is at the level of Houses in your chart - the Sun sign / Moon sign, etc are still the same.

Edited to add: If you take your present location the Ascendant does indeed shift into Cancer. Moreover if there is a twenty minute error in your birth time (sooner rather than later) you would also have a Cancer Ascendant, even in Kansas.

It is sometimes possible that the birth time entered on a birth certificate is the time when there was an opportunity to enter up the details of the birth rather than the actual time of birth. If you haven't already its worth checking with your parents.

Tallarico
18-11-2003, 08:07
Thanks Minderwiz

Altho it is on the BC as 5:11 AM, I will still check!

dadsnook2000
19-11-2003, 10:15
Tallarico, I've run charts for you relative to Salina, KA and Toms River, NJ. The Salina, KA birth chart has an Ascendant of 3 Leo 59 with an MC of 21 Aries 36. The Toms River, NJ location has an Ascendant of 22 Leo 58 and an MC of15 Tarus 50.

The Saliana, KS birth chart has the Asc bracketed by the Sun (in the first) and Mercury in the 12th. The Toms River, NJ chart has Uranus on the Asc. So, one question is, "Do you feel that you now express Sun/Mercury or Uranus characteristics in your personality and in your environment. The answer will be more a matter of degree rather than inclusive/exclusive characteristics.

As for the aspects in your chart -- remember that I had noted a possibility that your aspect patterns could overshadow houses and signs in their expression. Afterall, the "planets" are energy.

MAJOR ASPECT PATTERNS:

Mercury tightly opposed to Saturn, Saturn trine Mars, and Mars in a loose sextile to Mercury (considered here only because of the oppositon and trine). Perceptions and their interpretation and meaning are questioned as to how to categorize them. Rules have to be considered; how will others react? The wider oppositon to Jupiter (which conjoins Saturn) may make this cautionary approach a little less structured, more subject to variables depending upon what the situation is. Do you cover your butt most of the time, but loosen up in other situations?

Sun trines Moon and squares Neptune. This particular trine brings a sense of "honesty" to it. The regal sun likes to be admired and in situations where you can sit on a pedestal and be admired, but there is a basic self confidence in this -- people know that you work for what you get. The Sun square Neptune can either seek to dramatize your image and personality or can make you hard to understand in terms of your needs and vision.

WHICH CHART DO YOU WANT TO FIT INTO?
The above statements having been made (intended to get a reaction out of you AND to intensify possible expressions so that we can see how/where they fit), we can now look at your birth location and your current location.

Does the Sun/Mercury-at-the-Ascendant thing (strong self-expression, clear speech and sunny/talkative aspects express themselves? This would suggest the birth chart being strong. Did you have any unique friends, friends with unusual businesses or achievements in Kansas? Does the Uranus/Ascendant thing (strong willed, sudden impuliveness, liking for colors and new experiences) seem more like you? If so, your current location chart may be stronger. Mars trine the Toms River MC and Saturn inconjunct the Uranus-and-Ascendant points could show up -- Energy seems to work better in NJ in terms of achievement and personal vision, greater care is taken in terms of what is said, what is agreed to.

These statements need to be considered before we can look at the chart as a whole. Many of the aspect patterns are "islands unto themselves" -- meaning that the personality has chunks rather than a blended whole. There isn't an overly clear aspect pattern that seems to dominate and provide a focus. We'll have to wait untill you can tell us which of these complex patterns seems to be more obvious within you. Dave.

Tallarico
19-11-2003, 10:38
wow Dave, Thanks! You are so knowledgeable. I have to reread and think...I'll post again.

Tallarico
20-11-2003, 07:54
for me atleast...

I fall in the middle...

Does the Sun/Mercury-at-the-Ascendant thing (strong self-expression, clear speech and sunny/talkative aspects express themselves?

strong self expression, yes, clear speech, yes.
sunny/talkative, no

This would suggest the birth chart being strong.

Does the Uranus/Ascendant thing (strong willed, sudden impuliveness, liking for colors and new experiences)...

strong willed, yes, colors (deep dark rich tones) yes
impulsive, no
new experiences yes and no!

Perhaps I am somewhere in the middle? Is that possible?
I think life experience has taught me caution...I used to very very impulsive...I have never been overly sunny...somewhat shy at times...

yes I cover my butt and then yes I loosen up!


Sun trines Moon and squares Neptune. This particular trine brings a sense of "honesty" to it. The regal sun likes to be admired and in situations where you can sit on a pedestal and be admired, but there is a basic self confidence in this -- people know that you work for what you get. The Sun square Neptune can either seek to dramatize your image and personality or can make you hard to understand in terms of your needs and vision.

Oh so true...the part about being admired but I am not dramatic, I am hard to understand in terms of need and vision!

Dave am I shedding any light? Can I be a combination, or perhaps it is aspects I need to look into?

Karen

dadsnook2000
20-11-2003, 10:17
It is my sense that you carry more of your Salina, KA birth chart, in terms of angles and houses, than you do your relocational chart for the NJ area. I believe, also, that my view that aspects are making more of an impact on you than are signs and houses is also appropriate.

Lets look at some elements. The Mercury opposition to Saturn and Jupiter; clear speech (Saturn tends to preciseness), caution (Mercury's opposition to Saturn does that), loosening up after initial caution in your response (thank Jupiter for that).

Talkative; you said no. Mercury is away from the Ascendant a bit. Perhaps you have learned to think before voicing your ideas and this leads to less talkativeness. Note also that Mars is in Virgo/3rd house and trines Saturn -- careful expression. letting actions speak instead of words.

Sun rising in the 1st house; you said "strong self-expression." But this could also be an Uranus influence, particularly with the dark or vivid colors.

The drama and admiration comes from the Sun/Leo trine Moon/Aries aspect -- this works for either chart.

The Mercury-Saturn aspect also squares the MC giving you that good old "T-Square", astrology's great motivator and action tool. Throw in Jupiter and you have a balanced and thoughtful sense of goals and struggle to achieve recognition. Link that into the Sun at the Ascendant and Sun-trine-Moon and you have the ideal poster girl. Do you carry autographed photos with you? Just kidding -- BUT you could very well be an image for a product or a spokesperson for a company (maretking, press) or become identified with a cause. It will all happen if it hasn't yet.

Watch the Sun square Pluto symbolism. Too much intensity can interfere with personal charm an ability to be diplomatic with others.

Where drama and idealism, as related to Neptune, isn't so strong I would think the NJ chart (with Neptune at the IC) isn't so applicable. One other note: you have some 5th harmonic elements in your chart, not so obvious to many astrologers. These 72 degree/multiples of aspects strengthen the need to live a specific "life style" which provides you with a framework for your strengths. When you get to a point in your astrological studies where you can handle harmonics you might learn something from the 5th harmonic.

Have fun. Dave.

Tallarico
25-11-2003, 11:01
Dear Dadsnook,

Firstly thanks for all, your help with my chart, it's still so difficult! Today I ordered a book, that I used to have but got misplaced over the years. It is called "The Compleat Astrologer" by Derek Parker. Hopefully it will refresh my memory and give me some more insight. Any recommendations for easy to understand books. Aspecting is what is the hardest for me so far....

Karen

Lee
25-11-2003, 23:36
Hi Karen, there's a thread that's at the top of the Astrology forum index which has several recommended books. Here's a link:

http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=15205

Have fun! :)

-- Lee

Tallarico
26-11-2003, 00:31
Thanks Lee. I have been so scatterbrained lately. I should have checked!

dadsnook2000
26-11-2003, 00:45
Karen, I think its great to look for, and to study, books that define and explain aspects. "Aspects" are the traffic cops of planetary energies in that they "combine and emphasize" the symbology of the planets involved. Note the words "COMBINE" and "EMPHASIZE."

When you study aspects keep in mind that there are two types: Natal and Transiting/Progressing. The natal aspects tend to form a semi-permanent set of expressional patterns. Your life's experience will refine and emphasize an individualized response to these aspects. As life moves forward, individual transits will both energize and present variations on those natal patterns. This is when you have the opportunity to learn or to evolve those energies. RULE #1: The natal pattern is always there, transiting patterns provide an opportunity to expand and/or modify the way in which you typically respond to that planet in your chart.

The conjunction is pure combinational energy; the two/more planets can blend and strengthen each other. Don't always think that Saturn, for example, is not good for Venus. RULE #2; Each planet has both positive and negative symbolism. Conjunctions are like the number ONE; wholeness, potential, focus, etc.

Oppositions symbolize both adversity and projection. Think of two people pulling on a rope, and of a mirror showing you what you are. Within these terms you can define and expand the idea behind oppositions. Note also that a conjunction can have a wide span of degrees alloted to it (perhaps 8 to 12 degrees) while the opposition cuts the chart's circle in half -- so perhaps the opposition should be held, aspect wise, to 6 to 8 degrees. RULE #3; oppositions are not "bad", they point out where you see "others" at.

Trines split our circle in three, so aspects can be a little tighter if you wish, perhaps 4 to 6 degrees of orb. Trines permit an ease of expression. Like a motor's magnetic flux field, the encourage a continuous form of predictable expression (movement). They do not challenge us but help to resolve the two-ness of the opposition by bringing in a third element. Two planets can be in trine, or three planets (or more) can be in a grand-trine pattern. RULE #4; In any case, look for a smoother form of expression of the planets involved.

Squares between planets, and especially the T-square (two planets in opposition, both square a third planet) provide the GO POWER in a chart for those lucky enough to have them. Squares present a challenge. T-squares present a multiple challenge. How will you work out planet symbolism where each planet works through a different element -- fire and water for example. The T-square adds a third element -- earth square fire and earth opposite water as another example -- with the fire planet squaring both the earth and water planets. RULE #5; squares represent struggle, conflict within and without, and the need to work out a process for yourself or to use the process to benefit others.

All of the other aspects can be related to these primary aspects. Sextiles (60 degrees) are communicative focused versions of trines. Semi-squares (45 degrees) are struggle-joriented versions of squares (as are three semi-squares -- 135 degrees). Inconjuncts can be thought of, for your learning process, as oppositions requiring an adjustment in how you deal with them.

Its basically that simple. Trust me. Don't kill yourself over details, do a lot of charts, do some reading, have fun. Dave.