View Full Version : 9 of Swords in the Marseilles decks
If you look at the 9 of Swords in the Grimaud, the Vieville and the Dodal deck, you will notice that the middle Sword, at the top, is not completely centered - it is slightly to the right.
I think this is important. And that the decks that do not respect this have missed out on a detail that is not just a little printing mistake.
I am not sure though what this would mean - I keep on nearly getting the answer and then it slips away.
dolphinprincess
27-11-2003, 03:00
Diana-
I don't own a Marseilles deck, nor have I ever studied them...
so I probably have no business posting here :o)
But, I read your thread and this came into my head - so I thought I'd share it just in case..
10s are "completion".. a 9 is "almost" at completion...
the sword being off center could mean that 'it is almost there'... 'almost centered'.. .. and that reaching the 10 will allow one to move that little step from the right to the center...
sorry if this makes no sense... :o)
Welcome to this corner of the forum, dolphinprincess!!! :)
That makes good sense. But why to the right and not the left? In those days, I don't think people were aware of the right and left functions of the brain. Although they may have known this intuitively, or through deduction.
dolphinprincess
27-11-2003, 03:06
I like the inference to the right side of the brain - but I am not really sure why it would be to the right as opposed to the left..
I am now going to be thinking about that all weekend :o)....
maybe it has to do with how figures in the cards are depicted? you can see in the figure cards, looking to his left/right, left/right orientation of the figure in the card itself.
maybe the orientation of the middle sword in the 9 is along these lines, i dont know, just a suggestion that might (or not) make sense.....
Hi Diana, I've read somewhere that in decoding Marseille majors iconography, the right hand side of the card indicates the future and the masculine.
Perhaps the sword being offset to the right is a reminder that the matter is yet to be completed and that resolution lies in taking action?
That must be a big big part of it, Aoife! And it fits in with what Kaz said as well.
Of course, the Grimaud deck is the most interesting here because the Sword is golden (or yellow) - the only one of this colour in the Sword minors, and the the "guard" (or whatever you call it in English) of the Sword it is touching, is also yellow. The other "guard" is red.
Colours are also very very important in the Marseilles decks.
Rusty Neon
27-11-2003, 08:51
Originally posted by Diana
Of course, the Grimaud deck is the most interesting here because the Sword is golden (or yellow) - the only one of this colour in the Sword minors, and the the "guard" (or whatever you call it in English) of the Sword it is touching, is also yellow. The other "guard" is red.
Colours are also very very important in the Marseilles decks.
Diana ... I know that you don't put much stock into authors.
Author Marie-Thérèse des Longchamps sees the yellow-bladed sword in the 9 of Swords as corresponding to the yellow-bladed sword from the Justice trump card. (OK, I guess she ignores that the sword handle is differently coloured between the two cards.)
She suggests that the touching of the yellow and non-touching of the red in this case could indicate that one has to decide whether one has "a moral authority to exercise over others (yellow = human laws)" but not whether one should enter into the "domain of higher knowledge (red = divine laws)".
Little Baron
01-08-2004, 01:27
Interesting observation. I don't think that I would have noticed it, had you not pointed it out Diana.
I also noticed that the base of the sword is closer to the left than the right, making the whole sword diagonal. The whole uncentred sword is so 'off centre' that I agree with you that it must been for a reason and cannot be a mistake.
I havn't read with this deck yet but will look out for this when the card comes into a reading. Maybe it is like a hint; pointing at another card in the spread that is a little to the right of the centre and giving the reader a little nudge, saying 'thats the one to look at - thats where the message of this card is at - thats the niggling problem'. The way that it edges to the side like that is kind of sly, don't you think?
I was also thinking (or grabbing at straws, more like) of the Waite '9 of swords' and how that image of the women in bed is related by a lot of people to mean anxieties. If that card was taken from an image such as this, maybe the 'non-centred' sword suggests an inbalance of the mind and a tendancy to see things in an unrealistic way, due to the anxiety. Things can often seem very unclear when you are upset, distraught or confused and maybe this sword is highlighting that; how what is in your mind has somehow become dislodged for that period of time and your focus is not aligned properly.
Am I correct in thinking that the direction of 'right' is the future and left is the past. If that is so, maybe it is worries about the near future that is a problem in this card as well.
I probably have got it all wrong, but working through these cards is becoming very enjoyable and fascinating and opening up so many possibilities for me. I am sure that there will be many more as I get deeper into them. The possitioning of the suit symbols in the cards I have been researching so far are already becoming recognisable and throwing out tons of new and fresh ideas at me.
Best wishes
Yaboot
Just to add to what has been said already....I think of the yellow as indicating intellect/air and red as creativity/fire/passion.
Also agree with Right = masculine/active....(Aoife)
and "almost completions" ...dolphinprincess
Rusty's reference is another way to look at it as well...
This is a wonderful observation, Diana, since it isn't in the other decks I have...
I would say that I see it as an almost there activity/project/phase of life...but one that needs to be moved forward actively through careful thought or wise decision-making....using the yellow as Rusty mentioned only perhaps to the extent of the decisions, thinking being carried out by someone on this plane as opposed to a decision from "higher authority."
terri
I can remember the first time I had enough Marseille decks
to make a comparative study of the Pips. What seemed
most striking was the realisation of how many careful details
there actually were, and how much pleasure the artists took
in crafting their images, with all the complexities of an Escher.
A Case for 'Marseille' Roman Numerals:
The following inscriptions arrange
in an Alpha-Numeric sequence:
I II III IIII V VI VII VIII VIIII X
XI XII XIII XIIII XV XVI XVII XVIII XVIIII XX
If these standard substitutions are made,
IV IX XIV and XIX
Nine and Nineteen will be out of sequence.
...which has nothing to do with why double-yoo
is capitalized VV but in most longhand is uu ~
that was something worked out (well, almost)
between the English and the French :joke: :laugh:
Originally posted by Fulgour
A Case for 'Marseille' Roman Numerals:
The following inscriptions arrange
in an Alpha-Numeric sequence:
I II III IIII V VI VII VIII VIIII X
XI XII XIII XIIII XV VI VII VIII VIIII XX
If these standard substitutions are made,
IV IX XIV and XIX
Nine and Nineteen will be out of sequence.
Hi...Fulgour...
I follow you up till XV....
then instead of VI VII...etc.
it becomes XVI, XVII, XVIII, XVIIII, XX and XXI
I think you implied that the X was before the VI at 16...etc.
terri...
My first few decks, I though numbers were missing...LOL
I got some extra decks so I have the Camoin, Hadar, Grimaud, and Conver laid out in photo albums...with all pips for As, Deux, etc. on one page...so four Aces of one deck on one photo page. The albums are smallish and I can easily lay out four sets at once or find them quickly. I agree, it helps.
terri
The last among the seven Pythagorean numbers (three through nine),
nine is the limit to which the generative principles of number reach.
Ancient mathematical philosophers called nine the “finishing post”
and “that which brings completion.”
from: Santa Cruz Mountains Art Center (http://www.mountainartcenter.org/number9.htm)
Originally posted by Fulgour
:laugh: Thanks! My post has been edited accordingly! :joke:
No problemo...I know you and how meticulous you are!
terri :D
Originally posted by tmgrl2
I got some extra decks so I have the Camoin, Hadar, Grimaud, and Conver laid out in photo albums...with all pips for As, Deux, etc. on one page...so four Aces of one deck on one photo page. The albums are smallish and I can easily lay out four sets at once or find them quickly. I agree, it helps.One thing I did was try to unequivocally determine right side up from upside down.
It was amazing to find all the little tricks the artists played, and then when there
really was no clear way to tell, to see just which cards those were, and wonder why.
There is so much I haven't looked at in my decks, I wouldn't know where to begin. So I wait till I see something or someone posts something, then I examine them.
terri
Originally posted by tmgrl2
There is so much I haven't looked at in my decks, I wouldn't know where to begin. So I wait till I see something or someone posts something, then I examine them.You're right, and I can see my comments have been terribly obscure.
Sometimes, mostly always, my inclination is to cast a wide net.
One never knows what might come up, and I do resist limitations.
For the purposes of this discussion, however, the tip of the Sword
does indeed incline to the right, meaning I know not what...
Originally posted by Diana
If you look at the 9 of Swords in the... Dodal deck, you will notice that the middle Sword, at the top, is not completely centered - it is slightly to the right. The Dodal VIIII appears ambiguous on this, but the V is aslant.
We might pause here to ponder, on the III V VII and VIIII, do
the Swords point up or down when viewed supposedly upright?
And is X an exception to the "rule" altogether, in and of itself...
Doğru söyleyeni dokuz köyden kovarlar.
Speak the truth, and be dismissed from nine villages.
Turkish Proverb
After nine months the cord is cut, a birth.
Separation from home, travelling abroad, a stranger / foreigner, an exile, a cutting (of the apron strings), anxieties related to separation.
Some unusual thoughts Kwaw. Sword = Truth? What does the proverb actually mean, could it be saying that honesty is not always the best policy? Its a bit of a conundrum but certainly makes you think.
thinbuddha
05-04-2011, 06:29
What does the proverb actually mean, could it be saying that honesty is not always the best policy?
I think that it means that people aren't always ready to hear the truth, and will exile the person who tells that truth from their life. Examples? Your child is selling sex for drugs. Your dad is not your biological father, but your grandfather is. You just aren't the next American Idol. Yours is not the greatest country on earth. (etc.)
good examples thinbuddha:)
Nine represent the end of all things that have a beginning, i.e., it is a number of time (according to, for example, Cornelius Agrippa). Swords represent things that cut or pierce, like a needle, added together which recalls to mind the proverb:
A stitch in time saves nine.
thinbuddha
09-04-2011, 01:26
A stitch in time saves nine.
Can anyone explain this proverb?
oak_woman
09-04-2011, 02:14
Yes :)
If a garment (for example) has a tiny hole that needs mending, just taking one small stitch straight away will prevent that hole from getting bigger and needing nine stitches to mend it (= more work).
thinbuddha
09-04-2011, 08:48
OK, thanks. That makes sense.
So the 9S could be seen as a card representing damage done because you did not take timely action when needed?
OK, thanks. That makes sense.
So the 9S could be seen as a card representing damage done because you did not take timely action when needed?
Yes, I think so -- or a call to act before a situation gets worse.
Yes, I think so -- or a call to act before a situation gets worse. I thought this sounded familiar. Yes, in one method I have used the 9 Swords is a card of fore-warning.
I think in a negative postion or with accompanying negative cards it could be read as 'damage done' due to not taking earlier action.
Bee :)