Aeclectic Tarot Forum - Ever seen this deck???

Witchylust

26-11-2003, 17:19

I was recently given a new Tarot deck (well, new to me... it has been well loved) I have looked thru every list of Tarot cards I can find on the internet and not been able to identify this one. It came to me in an old perfume box (Lielong's Whisper) dating back to the 40's or 50's. I have no idea if this accurately reflects the age of the cards though. Here is a brief description of the cards.

They are a pen and ink artwork deck. Simple lines. The back of the cards bear the initials MB (or perhaps MR as they are Olde English script.) They were most likely white and browne when they were new although the background color has been tinged to off-white now. The design is of leaves on a vine intermingled with the various symbols of the minor Arcana.

The face of the cards are uncolored pen and ink drawings. The inklines are different colors for different suits. Pentacles are Green... Cups are Blue.. Wands are Purple... and Swords are Red. Major Arcana is Black. I cannot find a signature or such on the face of the cards although they do each seem to bear astrological or elemental symbology hidden within.

If anyone knows the title of this deck or someplace I might look for further information it would be greatly appreciated :)

Le_Corsair

26-11-2003, 17:24

Welcome to Aeclectic, by the way. Feel free to stop by the New Members forum to introduce yourself, we are always happy to have new insights.

Your deck sounds intriguing. Are the minors fully illustrated, or do they just use suit symbols (pips)?

Bob :THERM:

Witchylust

26-11-2003, 17:28

Originally posted by Le_Corsair
Welcome to Aeclectic, by the way. Feel free to stop by the New Members forum to introduce yourself, we are always happy to have new insights.

Your deck sounds intriguing. Are the minors fully illustrated, or do they just use suit symbols (pips)?

Bob :THERM:

I'm working on getting some pics on as we type. The Minors are fully illustrated... thanks for the welcome and I'll keep working on getting those pics :)

Dark_angel

26-11-2003, 17:31

Sounds like a beautiful deck!

Witchylust

26-11-2003, 17:49

Originally posted by Le_Corsair
Welcome to Aeclectic, by the way. Feel free to stop by the New Members forum to introduce yourself, we are always happy to have new insights.

Your deck sounds intriguing. Are the minors fully illustrated, or do they just use suit symbols (pips)?

Bob :THERM:

OK... got took a couple of pictures... but it says that I cannot post attachaments... any suggestions? :)

Kigh

Le_Corsair

26-11-2003, 18:03

Originally posted by Witchylust
OK... got took a couple of pictures... but it says that I cannot post attachaments... any suggestions? :)

Kigh

(Bob knocks self in head) That's right, I think only subscribers can post attachments. Well, you could subscribe..... :joke: Or possibly someone will come along in the next few minutes and identify it from the description. Probably Mari Hoshizaki. Maybe a few questions..... Ok. What order are Strength and Justice numbered?
Do they seem to resemble the Rider-Waite deck, or the Marseilles deck, or something totally strange? I'm going to guess RWS, because that deck sounds so familiar to me.

Bob :THERM:

Witchylust

26-11-2003, 18:14

Originally posted by Le_Corsair
(Bob knocks self in head) That's right, I think only subscribers can post attachments. Well, you could subscribe..... :joke: Or possibly someone will come along in the next few minutes and identify it from the description. Probably Mari Hoshizaki. Maybe a few questions..... Ok. What order are Strength and Justice numbered?
Do they seem to resemble the Rider-Waite deck, or the Marseilles deck, or something totally strange? I'm going to guess RWS, because that deck sounds so familiar to me.

Bob :THERM:
rofl... I just reread my last post "Got took"??? <eyeroll>
Strength is VIII
Justice XI
They really don't resemble the RW or the Marseilles enough to toss them into either pile. Inasmuch as anything their complete lack of coloring other than the pen lines themselves. They've really thrown me for a loop after all these years LOL

Cerulean

26-11-2003, 21:49

It sounds like the Masquerade Tarot, with simple pen and ink drawings of figures and different colored backgrounds, the figures have masks on them.

I don't think it is the Tarot of the Origins from Lo Scarabeo.

www.tarotgarden.com has a search listing. You can also use the advanced search features and choose "Black and White and 2-Color" listings and 78 cards to come up with over 100 titles.

You can also email info@tarotgarden.com and let them know that you'd like to identify this if possible.

Mari Hoshizaki

Witchylust

26-11-2003, 22:46

Mari... Greetings,
Bob said I would hear from you :-)
First, let me say thank you for your input and suggestions. Now on to the actual post...This is dis-similar from the masquerade deck in that the artwork is far more detailed and the background on every card is white. The faces are also unmasked. I did try the search page that you referred me to ... to no avail. I suppose this is to remain a mystery for now, although I will send a request for identification.
If anything comes of it I will be sure to let everyone know. The curiosity is making me insane <g> I've posted some pics of a few cards to some other areas as well in the hopes that someone will recognize them.

Kigh

SherryZoned

26-11-2003, 22:54

Witchylust,

can you link us to the otehr places that have the pics?

Witchylust

26-11-2003, 23:05

http://groups.aol.com/_cqr/religiouswomyn?mmch_=0
Try this link... click "photos" on the left of the page. The pictures are listed as "unknown tarot deck" Feel free to send them to anyone that you think might be able to help :)

Kigh

jmd

26-11-2003, 23:43

Interesting, WitchyLust... I seem to recall having this this deck somewhere - could very well be in the Encyclopedia of Tarot, which I do not have access to at this moment.

The pips are certainly totally taken from the RWCS deck - with small modifications, but the XIII Death card seems to suggest either an influence on or from the BOTA (which returned to the more traditional depiction of this card).

As others undoubtedly will too, I shall check my Encyclopedia and a couple of other sources when I get home (it's afternoon here).

You certainly appear to have picked up a little treasure :)

Cerulean

27-11-2003, 02:37

1. Holly Volley's website has a picture of a 'Rider-Waite' style deck from a coin operated vendor--her Rider Waite page also has card backs. The link below has very close variations.

http://home.comcast.net/~vilex/ShipofFools.html

2. It has the look of an English novelty deck and if it has a Rider Waite variation, she would probably know... you can email her. You might also ask her if it might be a variation of one of the Zolar Astrological Tarots, as they did have Rider-Waite style images in front and a wide variety of printing

3. At Tarotgarden.com, you might put "Leng" in the search engine and check the Thomsen Leng tarot, because the art style might be around 1935.

This is assuming it is a close variation to the Rider Waite prior to 1971.

Best of luck. I think you will enjoy the hunt...if you have a local new age bookstore or resource that stocks one of the volumes of the Encyclopedia of the Tarot by Stuart Kaplan, that's another resource. It's fun to uncover something old or new!

Mari H.

P.S. It has all 78 cards? What are the dimensions?

Le_Corsair

27-11-2003, 08:28

I don't think it's the Thomson-Leng, that one is fully colored, or the examples I've seen have been. It is similar to the Beville Tarot that Tarot Garden recently purchased on Ebay, that one also had suits of different line colors. If that is indeed what you have, you have scored a rarity, Tarot Garden paid over 400 dollars US for their sample. You might query them about details of the card back, that is probably what will definitively identify it. I'd link to the original thread which showed images, but the seller has removed them from the website.

This one is definitely an RWS-style deck, however. I just wish I remembered what it was, because I think I saw it on Ebay in the last month or so.

Good hunting!

Bob :THERM:

Tallarico

27-11-2003, 09:02

In the Death card, is that a signature on the bottom...MW?

Le_Corsair

27-11-2003, 09:10

Originally posted by Tallarico
In the Death card, is that a signature on the bottom...MW?

It's possible, but I think it is the astrological symbol for Scorpio, which is the sign usually associated with Key XIII.

Bob :THERM:

Lee

27-11-2003, 10:25

Originally posted by Le_Corsair
It is similar to the Beville Tarot that Tarot Garden recently purchased on Ebay, that one also had suits of different line colors. If that is indeed what you have, you have scored a rarity, Tarot Garden paid over 400 dollars US for their sample. Tarot Garden has the Beville in their database now, you can see the cards by searching at their site for "beville." Witchylust's deck isn't the Beville, although they are similar in being line drawings in different colors for the suits.

Mari, thanks so much for identifying the Leng deck, I've been intrigued with that one since first seeing it in the Encyclopedia, and was very happy to be able to find scans of it at Tarot Garden.

-- Lee

Witchylust

27-11-2003, 12:05

Originally posted by Mari_Hoshizaki

Mari H.

P.S. It has all 78 cards? What are the dimensions?

Yes, it does indeed have all 78 cards. The dimensions of the cards are 3''(w)x 4.5''(l). There is some slight variation (too slight to be measurable) in the length of the cards... I noticed another tid-bit as I was searching and studying; hoping :-\ to dub them with a name. The fool is facing the (r) and it seemed that in most RW the figure is (l) facing. At any rate, I have been awake and obsessing over this deck for far too long to continue to go without coffee. :)

Kigh

jmd

29-11-2003, 00:33

Being stumped, I decided to contact Frank Jensen (the editor of the now stopped Manteia).

I thought that if none of us are able to identify it, at least he may have more information.

Before I paraphrase his response, I should mention that the deck still seems to awaken a memory in me of it being included in a book - which I will now have to slowly peruse though my shelves (in a couple of weeks - too busy at the moment).

Frank Jensen says he has a copy - so at least we know someone else with the deck - but that he has been unable, as yet, to obtain further information about it. He suggests a possible 1940-50s date. Again, I didn't ask for his reasons, but would trust his judgement on this - subject to further evidence.

Not much help...

Witchylust

29-11-2003, 01:34

JMD...

Thank you again for all your efforts in helping to identify this deck. LOL, It is good to know that I am not the only one left wondering about it. Perhaps Frank will run across more information at some point and share it with us all. I noticed recently that the deck I have still has the scent of the perfume that was once in the box the deck has been stored in over the years. London is one of the places that is listed as a production area for the perfume. It was last produced in the 40-50's which leads credence to the guess at the dates. Of course I am curious as to what Frank felt the worth of the deck was as he was bidding, but as I stated before... it could be worth 10 cents and I would still be thrilled with it. My thanks again...
Be well and Blessed,
Kigh

Emily

29-11-2003, 04:58

Hi Witchylust,

Is the deck printed or does it look like it might have been hand-drawn onto the cards? Couldn't whoever gave you the deck give you any more information on it. If it is from the 30's or 40's it might have been someone who wasn't satisfied with the Rider Waite and decided to do their own version. The line drawings do seem to be finer than the Rider Waite and they look like quality cards.
It looks like a lovely deck, hope you manage to find out more about it. :)

Voodoo_Shaman

29-11-2003, 11:33

About four weeks ago this same deck was posted on Aeclectic as being sold on e-bay. It went for about 400.00. I remember reading the small replys and posts, gotta look through the forum, because I remember it well. Infact the cards images were posted on e-bay. This memeber had the same deck, and did not know the name either. That is a really nice deck. Keep it safe.

Le_Corsair

29-11-2003, 15:32

Originally posted by Voodoo_Shaman
About four weeks ago this same deck was posted on Aeclectic as being sold on e-bay. It went for about 400.00. I remember reading the small replys and posts, gotta look through the forum, because I remember it well. Infact the cards images were posted on e-bay. This memeber had the same deck, and did not know the name either. That is a really nice deck. Keep it safe.

Voodoo_Shaman, you are referring to my thread on the Beville Tarot, I think; although the deck here seems very similar to the Beville, I think Lee is of the opinion that it isn't the Beville, and I tend to agree with him. Look carefully at the scans shown in this thread, and then look at the scans of the Beville at Tarot Garden (they are the purchasers of the Beville), and you will see that there are differences. The Beville looks to have been hand drawn by an artist, and the "mystery deck" appears to use the line drawings of Pamela Coleman Smith, but in multiple colors instead of black.

Bob :THERM

Witchylust

30-11-2003, 01:54

Originally posted by Emily
Hi Witchylust,

Is the deck printed or does it look like it might have been hand-drawn onto the cards? Couldn't whoever gave you the deck give you any more information on it.

The deck is printed... but it is interesting to note the variances in the borders of the cards in comparison to more 'modern' cards where everything is perfectly even and balanced. Unfortunately the woman who gave it to me didn't have any real inforrmation on it herself. She was told that the deck had once belonged to someone accused of Witchcraft, at which point the deck was hidden in the perfume box that it now resides in. A lovely romantic notion but who's to say how much of it is truth :)
We do know now that there is at least one other copy. The person that owns that one, has also been unable to get any information on it :-p

Emily

30-11-2003, 08:36

Hi Witchylust,

That was what made me ask, the borders of the cards made me think the artwork was maybe hand drawn or even hand-printed onto the cards. Knowing the story, true or not, gives the deck more feeling of mystery to you. You may never find out where it came from but it is a rare find. :)

Le_Corsair

17-12-2003, 03:40

I thought that I'd bump this thread, and also offer a question.

Is it possible that this deck a variant of the Insight Institute Tarot? (http://www.tarotgarden.com/database/dbsearchengine.php?search_type=instock&pageenter=28[/url) The date that WitchyLust gives for his deck sounds about right, and the Tarot Garden description of the Insight Institute Tarot says that "...other printed versions were also made." Do all of those printed versions follow the images of the silk-screened version shown on the Tarot Garden database? The Tarot Garden description of the Insight Institute deck states it is blended from RWS and Marseilles imagery, another similarity to the "Mystery Deck."

Bob :THERM

jmd

17-12-2003, 04:14

This is an interesting reflection, Le_Corsair... I'm sure one of us will eventually find some reference to it...

With regards to the Insight Institute's deck, however, I seem to recall that its pips were more Marsilles like, whereas the deck in question appears to have its pips depicted scenically. Still, as you said, there could be various versions, and the date and place (the UK) seems to fit with Frank Jensen's thoughts.

I am going to have another look through some of my books and see if something emerges. The deck is seems just to ring too much of a bell...

Witchylust

22-12-2003, 14:27

Originally posted by Le_Corsair
I thought that I'd bump this thread, and also offer a question.

Is it possible that this deck a variant of the Insight Institute Tarot? (http://www.tarotgarden.com/database/dbsearchengine.php?search_type=instock&pageenter=28[/url) The date that WitchyLust gives for his deck sounds about right, and the Tarot Garden description of the Insight Institute Tarot says that "...other printed versions were also made." Do all of those printed versions follow the images of the silk-screened version shown on the Tarot Garden database? The Tarot Garden description of the Insight Institute deck states it is blended from RWS and Marseilles imagery, another similarity to the "Mystery Deck."

Bob :THERM

The major arcana does seem to be more similar to this deck than many others I have looked into. As stated in Jmd's reply the pips are indeed fully illustrated, and there seems to be a bit more detail to the other cards. I intend to get a pic of the back of the cards posted soon as well. Hopefully there will be more to tell soon :)

Witchylust

22-12-2003, 14:29

Originally posted by jmd
This is an interesting reflection, Le_Corsair... I'm sure one of us will eventually find some reference to it...

With regards to the Insight Institute's deck, however, I seem to recall that its pips were more Marsilles like, whereas the deck in question appears to have its pips depicted scenically. Still, as you said, there could be various versions, and the date and place (the UK) seems to fit with Frank Jensen's thoughts.

I am going to have another look through some of my books and see if something emerges. The deck is seems just to ring too much of a bell...

Heard back from Holly(i) at Taroteer again today. She still has had no further look in the search. Everyone is in agreement with the original idea that it is from 40-50's Brittain. Maybe the back of the cards will kick someone's memory into overdrive :)

Witchylust

24-12-2003, 14:54

OK, so I finally got a pic of the back of the tarot cards in this deck. It's posted at the same site as the others : http://groups.aol.com/_cqr/religiouswomyn?mmch_=0

Just click the "view all collections" box

Maybe this will be the key to dredging up why these seem so familiar to many folk :)

Le_Corsair

24-12-2003, 15:22

Thanks, Witchylust! I admit my own ignorance, I don't know which deck this is; the only thing the back calls to mind is that the "MB" might stand for Milton Bradley, the US toy corporation. If it is a British deck, though, that probably won't be the answer.

Good luck, everybody!

Bob :THERM

Witchylust

24-12-2003, 15:31

LOL, I'm glad to hear we aren't the only one's that thought of Milton Bradley. I did do a websearch to see if they had ever produced a deck. I did find an old card game: a parlor game but it wasn't actually a tarot deck. They also produce a LOTR deck apparently. So I now know far more about Milton Bradley and card games than any human really should LOL

Tallarico

24-12-2003, 18:11

LOL Witchy, but can you remember the song...Milton Bradley makes a good one, it's the Twister, Spin the spinner and watch it stop, Twister ties you up in a knot!!

Oh oh, I'm scary...

Le_Corsair

02-04-2004, 10:30

I'm going to bump this thread, because it has been a while since anyone looked at it, and also because we have new members who might recognize it. I'll take the opportunity to attach photos of the mystery deck, just in case Witchylust takes them down from her web page. :)

Bob :THERM

Le_Corsair

02-04-2004, 10:31

And also....

Bob :THERM

Le_Corsair

02-04-2004, 10:32

Aaaaand also....

Bob :THERM

Le_Corsair

02-04-2004, 10:33

Aaaand last but not least....

Bob :THERM

Le_Corsair

14-04-2004, 21:35

I emailed Stuart Kaplan of US Games with scans of Witchylust's Mystery Deck, and Mr. Kaplan didn't recognize the deck, either, although he said he especially liked the image of the VI of Cups. He had not heard of the Beville Tarot either, which just goes to show how many small companies and individuals out there are producing tarot decks.

Mr. Kaplan gave me a heads up on the publication of Volume IV of his Encyclopedia, also, he said that it will be out this fall, at this point lacking only the Index, Bibliography, and Introduction.

Bob :THERM

Lee

15-04-2004, 05:57

Thanks, Bob! :)

-- Lee

Cerulean

26-07-2004, 00:49

http://www.angelfire.com/realm/venus307/tarotgallery.htm

Scroll to the bottom. Different style

Don't know if the backs are the same as those posted, but it shows a game in that genre by MB...

laura_borealis

26-07-2004, 02:36

I had forgotten about this thread!

Another Milton Bradley fortune telling reference... I was trying to see if MB ever used a different logo than the plain red M, blue B that I remember from all my games as a kid. I haven't discovered the answer to my question, but I ran across this pdf file of MB game rules, including "The Game of Fortune Telling." Scroll down a ways to see the rules. It looks like they used a regular playing card deck.

We are no closer to Witchylust's deck, but the questions and meanings MB give for fortune-telling are amusing! :)

Witchylust

25-05-2005, 12:17

I've continued to look for more info on this deck with no luck. It does not seem to have any correlation with the Milton Bradley game cards. I've just perused thru tarotgarden again hoping something new had appeared, but
no :( At any rate, I hope that everyone has been well and made some terrific finds for their collections. One more legal battle to finish up and then perhaps I can actually dedicate a little more time to visiting on the board.

Be well and Blessed,

Kigh

stella01904

25-05-2005, 12:35

MM ~ I'm as mystified as anyone else, but I want to mention that the artwork strikes me as 1930's. Also the fact that it is not colored - great depression and all. Just a guess. BB, Stella

Witchylust

25-05-2005, 14:47

MM ~ I'm as mystified as anyone else, but I want to mention that the artwork strikes me as 1930's. Also the fact that it is not colored - great depression and all. Just a guess. BB, Stella

MM Stella, Not sure if you've read the entirety of this thread, but the box that these were kept in prior to my acquisition in is an old perfume box (40's)Actually, I still keep them in the box. The cards, to all appearances, were placed in this box and kept there for heaven knows how long. The perfume is Lucien Lelong's 'Whisper'. It is almost impossible to get 'Whisper' products...seems they are highly collectible and have been for some time. Interestingly enough the scent still lingers on the cards and in the box. OK< I am just rambling now... and couldn't begin to tell you why I find the tie-in with the perfume so intriguing, so.... enough!
Blessings,
Kigh

Lillie

25-05-2005, 17:15

I have read this whole thread with absolute fascination.

I have no idea about the deck, except that the art really reminds me of something I just cannot place.
The face of the woman in 9 of discs...

My mother used to draw faces very like it. She was taught to draw at school in the 40's.

But apart from that it really reminds me of something I cannot place.
I'm going to be thinking about this for days!

Wonderful deck, lucky you!

stella01904

25-05-2005, 21:37

MM Stella, Not sure if you've read the entirety of this thread, but the box that these were kept in prior to my acquisition in is an old perfume box (40's)
MM ~ It just strikes me as 30's, maybe even late 20's. The women are drawn with very thin eyebrows and 30's style Jean Harlow hair, look at the 9 of Pents. Almost reminds me of Disney's Snow White. By the 40's everyone wore more pronounced eyebrow, and the hair had less of a bobbed look. (Don't mean to act like a know-it-all, I'm not! I just love old movies and you get good at guessing dates after awhile. ;) ) I meant the deck could have been published in the 30's and only later found its way to that wonderful perfume box. If decks could talk...no, if we could understand everything they have to tell us...! BB, Stella

Witchylust

25-05-2005, 22:59

MM ~ (Don't mean to act like a know-it-all, I'm not! I just love old movies and you get good at guessing dates after awhile. ;) ) I meant the deck could have been published in the 30's and only later found its way to that wonderful perfume box. If decks could talk...no, if we could understand everything they have to tell us...! BB, Stella

MM again...No worries, you don't sound like a know it all. For me it's musicals <g>

It actually didn't occur to me that I sounded as though I were insisting they were 40's era til I re-read my post. What I was *trying* to convey (LOL) was that they seemed most likely from the same era as the perfume OR earlier :) I, of course, now have to go back and look at the details of all the cards again after your attention to the detailings of style. Thanks for the insight!
Be well and Blessed, Kigh