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Mystic Zyl
05-12-2003, 08:50
If you could change anything about your natal chart, what would it be?

Mine would be that my Mars would be in any other sign than Pisces , like Aries direct. Mars Pisces for me is not a motivatng placement, in fact I know it is a determent position. And can we talk, the Mars-Pisces retrograde just about killed me. I could have lived in bed the entire time this summer.

What is your complaint? Or are you perfect? Either way let us know.

skytwig
05-12-2003, 09:14
Originally posted by Mystic Zyl
IAnd can we talk, the Mars-Pisces retrograde just about killed me. I could have lived in bed the entire time this summer.
:laugh: Oh my goodness that is funny!!! Only because i totally understand!!!!!!

This has been a really sucky time for me and it is due to my natal 12th house that has been thunked into by Saturn during this darling Harmonic Shmonic thingy......

Uranus, Mars and Sun all in Cancer in my natal 12th house and along saunters Saturn of the Lunar Eclipse and settles down like it is home....... in my 12th house....... excuuuuuuuse me!

What the heck was i thinking when i arranged the planets like this before i got here???????? Or did i agree to it!???? Whatever it was, I WOULD LIKE TO CHANGE IT, PLEASE ..........

thanks for the opportunity to vent, Mystic Zyl :D

dadsnook2000
05-12-2003, 12:21
Complaints! Do something about it. Change your chart. You say that cant't be done? Really? Well, you can.

Have a locational astrology chart done, then pick an opportune place where, for example, Sun is on the MC, Jupiter and Venus are on the Asc., -- what ever looks good within the range of choice you have. THEN, MOVE THERE, STAY THERE and bond with the area. You'll have your planets in different houses and the planets of your choice on the angles. Life will definitely look up.

Now, if you want to go with concepts that are a little more far out, and if you are capable (mind, belief wise) of going there, I'll refer back to a series of books called "the Seth material." Seth was a non-entity who spoke through a channel-person named Jane Roberts. Seth spoke thru Jane while she was in trance. One of his most profound sessions concerned his statement that "the world is a camoflage illusion" or something to that nature. In one of her many books Jane talks of being on vacation and noticing another couple that looked very much like her and her husband. This other couple looked tired and woudn't dance. She grabbed her husband and danced as a reaction to this other inactive and dull couple.

In a follow on session, Seth explained that at that moment she took her life in a new direction, she became a different person with an altered set of values. I DID A CHART FOR JANE AND FOR THAT MOMENT! I remember that there were similarities in the new chart/person relative to the original birth chart, but could see that a new "Jane" could be interpreted. IF THIS WAS TRUE, it would seem possible that some moments in our life permit us to move off at a tangent from our original path. WITHOUT MORE STUDY as a basis for understanding this, we have to start with the view that both a significant re-combination of birth planet patterns and an awareness-inducing evet-situation has to occur at the same point in time. If we strongly react or act or take a symbolic action while fully aware of what is happening, that may be the key to a new life tanger and a new chart.

Thats a lot to think about. Dav.e

Minderwiz
05-12-2003, 21:53
There's a boom industry relocation using Astrology - lots of book being written and practises set up. So Dave's very right about that as one way to get your chart changed.

There are some problems with it though. Mars is still retrograde in Pisces for Mystic because the relocation chart uses your birth time and date - it simply shifts the location.

Also strengthening some planets by making them angular may weaken others (Indeed you might have chosen more to weaken angular Saturn or Pluto than strengthen Jupiter in the eighth). So, for example you might find that your career takes off but your marriage breaks down - because you've not only strengthened the tenth, you've also weakened the seventh.

skytwig
06-12-2003, 01:00
Dave..... I do not understand this concept at all.... that's like saying, if you don't like the color of your eyes, change them.....

I can fake a different color, but i cannot actually change them.....

For me, evidence proves that the natal chart 'happens' in spite of relocation..... I have been in another state since my teen years..... i moved out of my birth city when i was 11...... At 52, I can tell you the natal chart is very much happening......

I did not even become aware of a natal chart and how it works until this year and I have been amazed at how it correlates with my life.... for me it has been a relief because I see it is a 'plan' in many ways and i am "right where I need to be".......

Messing with charts makes no sense, living life and responding wisely to it, however, does.

Thanks for the suggestion..... I think it needs some rework. :)

Minderwiz
06-12-2003, 02:16
Skytwig,

I think we need to be a little careful when we use the word 'change' here. No matter where a person moves they cannot change the moment of their birth - so the locations of planets by sign and aspect cannot be altered.

Therefore at most Relocational Astrology can only change the mundane emphasis of the planets - that is the area of life in which they have an effect. If you have, as Mystic has, Mars retrograde in Pisces then that is its condition, no matter where a you go and its energies are something that you would always have to live with.

The argument of those who support Relocational Astrology is that you can soften the effect of a Mars Retrograde in Pisces by in effect moving it from a house where it may be associated with major issues, such as the first, seventh, fourth or tenth to somewhere less prominent in life such as the eleventh or twelfth. However it still remains and it still effects your life.

I've read a few books on the area, as I suspect Dave has. I have not had enough experience in the area to make a valid evaluation. However I do know that may Astrologers are making some significant money out of giving relocation advice.

skytwig
06-12-2003, 02:25
So, in actuality, relocational astrology is about INFLUENCE......

Hmmmmmm.... so I guess that's why we end up moving at times.....

I just have a hard time with someone saying, don't like it, change it...... as if I can just read the planets and move...... maybe I need to move to another planet..... sometimes I think that is the dilemma.... teehee......

I am very new to all this (astrology), but what amazes me is how accurate it is. I don't like the idea of being tugged and pulled and shaped by planets, but I am willing to work with the energies....

As a Reiki healer, I am very energy oriented and work with the energies of nature, so working with the energies of planets is just an expansion of that..... kinda like riding ocean waves, rather than fighting them......

And as far as Saturn goes, he has definitely been influencing me and my history..... it is all good, just very uncomfortable....... :)

Indigo Rose
06-12-2003, 02:49
I have a Mars in Pisces; BUT not retrograd. How is that different?

Minderwiz
06-12-2003, 04:53
Skytwig

I also should have added that in order for relocation to have a significant effect, a person might need to move a significant distance - perhaps thousands of miles. For example, to get my Moon on the MC - affecting my career, I would need to move to New York; to get my Sun on my Ascendant I'd have to move to Indonesia.

The best I can do in the UK is to move to Cornwall, where I'll have Saturn on my Ascendant - a relocation of around 350 miles. On my natal chart Saturn is 2 degrees 20 minutes from the Ascendant in the twelfth.


Indigo Rose

Your Mars in Pisces will be somewhat stronger, more focused and more directed to dealing with the outside world. Mars is quite good in a Water sign, it rules the Water triplicity and it is the sign ruler of Scorpio. I've read that Mars rulership of the Water Triplicity was assigned to 'cool him down', a lot less rash a lot more considerate of others and a lot more sympathetic, Assertive but in a nice way :)

Tallarico
06-12-2003, 08:21
I would put a nice planet in my empty, lonely seventh house. I've got 3 in my second house...Uranus, Pluto, and N. Node...(i know, not a planet!) ;)

skytwig
06-12-2003, 08:28
Originally posted by Minderwiz
SkytwigI also should have added that in order for relocation to have a significant effect, a person might need to move a significant distance - perhaps thousands of miles.

Hmmmmm.... well, i moved from Michigan to the East coast of Maryland.... how would i know how that affects my natal chart... do a natal with my birth year for this location?

I've read that Mars rulership of the Water Triplicity was assigned to 'cool him down', a lot less rash a lot more considerate of others and a lot more sympathetic, Assertive but in a nice way :) Good, my Mars is in Cancer (in my 12th house :( )

Minderwiz
06-12-2003, 08:50
Originally posted by skytwig


Hmmmmm.... well, i moved from Michigan to the East coast of Maryland.... how would i know how that affects my natal chart... do a natal with my birth year for this location?



Yes- same time of birth (but allow for any change due to time zones as you want the same instant of birth).

It's possible that you might only find marginal changes in terms of Houses or even none at all - it depends where the planets are in relation to the House cusps. So you might well end up with the same Ascendant (sign but not degree) MC and houses.

Look to see which planets have changed houses and have a think what effect the shift in emphasis might bring. You might also find that aspects to the Ascendant and MC have changed and the Part of Fortune will also have shifted but probably not by much.

skytwig
06-12-2003, 08:54
Thanks so much, Minderwiz..... I'll check it out.... I do have a couple cuspy aspects.....

Minderwiz
06-12-2003, 09:22
If you find anything let me know :)

If you are interested in the subject area a good book is

Astrolocality Astrology by Martin Davis (which won the Spica Award in 2000)

Also there Planets in Locality by Steve Cozzi

and

Astrology on the Move by Sasha Fenton (OK but not as good as the Davis book)

skytwig
06-12-2003, 10:01
Originally posted by Minderwiz
If you find anything let me know :)

Thanks, Minderwiz, this is very interesting!

The main changes were:

1. Sun moved from 12th to 1st house (sun in Cancer)

2. Mercury (Leo) moved into 3rd house. (I am a writer and artist)

3. Moon and Saturn moved into 4th house (aghhh.... had to move in with my daughter this year!!!!).

Mystic Zyl
06-12-2003, 13:21
Just for the record I was not born during a Mars Pisces retro, but the Pisces retro in Mars was very bad for me. I typed it wrong. Is Mercury retrograde, yet, laughing?

Mystic Zyl
06-12-2003, 13:29
Hmmm I think I'll relocate to Las Vegas, it is over 1000 miles and warmer too.

skytwig
06-12-2003, 13:32
Originally posted by Mystic Zyl
Hmmm I think I'll relocate to Las Vegas, it is over 1000 miles and warmer too.

But is Las Vegas in the right direction? :laugh:

Minderwiz
06-12-2003, 21:23
Thanks Skytwig

Sun in the first is much stronger than Sun in the twelfth - you will be more self assured, your health probably benefitted and you can focus your creativity better through your interaction with the world.

Mercury into the third will have helped your writing develop, Saturn in fourth - a greater emphasis on father, family, the family struture (the family as a unit), Moon in fourth would suggest security in the family (which I suppose is moving in with your daughter :) )

skytwig
07-12-2003, 02:30
Originally posted by Minderwiz
Sun in the first is much stronger than Sun in the twelfth - you will be more self assured, your health probably benefitted and you can focus your creativity better through your interaction with the world.... Saturn in fourth - a greater emphasis on father, family, the family struture (the family as a unit), Moon in fourth would suggest security in the family (which I suppose is moving in with your daughter :) )

Weird thing is, minderwiz, that I come from a very abusive family, father is mentally ill and not in treatment (much of his harm was directed at me...... I 'divorced' the family 7 yrs ago) , so with Saturn in Cancer right now, the clearing out of old issues is very prominent!!

But I really see it as necessary so I can do the other part of the work I came her to do (Jupiter/Aries is in my 10th house, by the byy :) )...... True 'security' is being uncovered, because, right now, there is very little.... my daughter is ambivalent about these arrangements. I can literally depend on no one but Spirit....

(I can say, during this lifetime, I have consistently ached for "home" ...... :( )

But Spirit is Love and what is more dependable and consistent and life supporting than that????? :)

Thanks for your time and help, minderwiz..... it's given me more info to consider...... :)

Tallarico
07-12-2003, 03:59
Minderwiz, or anyone who could answer this...

Mercury in Cancer in the 12th house...psychic abilities, channeler or not necessarily...
Thanks.

dadsnook2000
07-12-2003, 05:50
We each have a chart that contains the whole set of planets, signs and houses that everyone else has. What is different for each of us is how they are arranged. As several have noted, we continue to express the birth chart throughout our lives. That's fine -- but is it enough? Progressions and transits are two of the several tools we have to look at opportunities that come up from time to time WHEN WE CAN MAKE A CHANGE. If you have an aspect pattern of two or three planets in your chart, you know how you express it. Often this expression focuses more on one factor and less on another factor.

If you have options, you should express them all (my quote). We can do two things to more fully or differently express ourselves. First, we can make sure that we give each planet in our chart an opportunity to truly be part of us. Don't focus on Mars when the Moon needs just as much space. Second, each major transit or progression to a natal aspect pattern from a planet that is in that natal pattern gives us a chance to focus on that particular energy. When another transiting or progressing planet also hits that natal aspect pattern at the same time, THEN YOU HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY TO EXPAND YOUR HABITUAL EXPRESSION OF THAT NATAL ASPECT PATTERN.

Expanding your sensitivity and expression is called growth. You can literally grow out of your chart as you knew it at one point. Keep in mind that many are used to looking only at a few aspects such as the conjunction, opposition, trine, square, etc. There are other aspects that are just as important -- they are found when you divide the circle by 5 or by 7 for example.

One of the biggest areas that is overlooked is that of EQUAL ARCS. Pick two planets in your chart that you feel are significnat in your life's experience. Measure the arc in degrees and minutes between them. YOU NOW HAVE TWO OPTIONS.

First, when ever those two planets re-establish that arc, no matter where they are in your chart, their energy comes back into your life in a big way. You can channel this familiar engergy into any other planet that they contact (by hard aspect or by mid-point) and thereby add a new planet and form of expression into your life.

Second, find any other pair of planets in your chart that have a closely similar arc. If one/more exists, then that pair of planets and the first pair of planets can share a common mid-point. When ever that mid-point is transited by any of the several planets involved, then the whole group of planets (and the combined energies they represent) can be expressed.

The point of this is that you can change your chart by growing from its perceived limitations and by adding complexities and expanded opportunities to it. Dave.

Minderwiz
07-12-2003, 08:12
Tallarico,

We all have psychic ability to some extent, so we can certainly start from the possibility that this placement could indicate the ability to channel.

If we take a more modern view of the twelfth as the House which shows how we try to go beyond ourselves and link with the divine (or the universe) then that would seem to fit.

Cancer is seen as a caring and nurturing sign, Mercury here will communicate, emotionally, instinctively and sensitively. All of these might enhance the chances of channeling.

However there are other possible interpretations, Mercury in the twelfth might communicate in a hidden or behind the scenes way, or through institutions and it could play one of its traditional roles of trickster as the twelfth is also the House of self deception.

If there are other signs in your chart that would suggest mediumship then this could give you a communications channel but on it's own it could show up in a number of ways.

If you feel that you are being called to channel then go ahead and try. Don't rely on your chart here - as Dave says above we can develop from that original potential. There may be transits or progressions that are 'pushing' you in that direction - so give it a go.

Tallarico
07-12-2003, 08:48
Well, no I am not being called to channel. I was trying to put together my basic understanding of what I know now. So I came up with:

Mercury:communication
Cancer:emotions
12th house:psychic

so with this arrangement, I thought maybe I could explain my interest in the metaphysical and perhaps would find a special talent with that.


There is something else that puzzles me. I have no planets in my 7th house. Perhaps that is why I am still single? (and I have lived half my life ;) )I think Saggitarius is ruling the house as Leo is my ascendent. (did I get that one right?) WHen there are no planets in a house is that area not "activated'? Does it mean I have to work harder than the average bear in that area?

Minderwiz
07-12-2003, 09:04
The interpretation that you put forward is a possible one but I would look for more than one indicator of this level of psychic ability if I were going to draw that as a firm conclusion. One problem with Astrology is that planet / sign / House combinations can manifest in various ways in people's lives. So one person with this combination might be a medium but others might be ghost writers for mediums who want to write their autobiographies, or indeed ghost writers for the rich and famous who want to write their autobiographies :)

Don't worry about the lack of planets in the Seventh, that's nothing to do with you being single in itself. The planet ruling the sign on your Descendant (the seventh cusp) will give an indication of marriage and partnerships. If you are a Leo Ascendant (as am I) your Descendant will be Aquarius.

I use the traditional rulers so I would take Saturn as the ruler of your Seventh - its difficult to be precise without knowing where Saturn is in your chart and what aspects it makes but a fairly general interpretation might well be that you are either likely to marry an older partner or marry later in life (than average). You are likely to be quite careful in entering a relationship but once in you are committed.

skytwig
07-12-2003, 09:16
This thread started out so funny and has developed into a seminar...... :) Thanks!

So I get the idea of working with the energy of my natal chart (thank you Dave)..... I would see that as emphesizing things that might not come easily to me? Or working to open areas that are not so easy to open?

But watching the transitions to see when opportune times develop?

One question I have, too, is the double thing.... I am Cancer with Cancer rising and Mars and Uranus in Cancer.... my son is a double Pisces (lot of death in his childhood!!! poor baby.....)

So what is up with that? with the double thing? someone told me it is because we didn't get it right in the last lifetime, which really sucks as a concept......

What do you think?

Tallarico
07-12-2003, 09:30
Skytwig

We have 2 well educated kind people helping us get an education! Dadsnook and Minderwiz.

I only have a beginner's book, but I am hoping for more at CHristmas!

Thanks Dave, Thanks Minderwiz!


Karen

dadsnook2000
07-12-2003, 10:46
Skytwig, we choose (I believe) our time and place and circumstances of birth. Choosing an Ascendant with Mars and Uranus (and Sun?) all in the same sign probably isn't any sort of punishment. Why would we do that to ourselves. I suspect you are on an accelerated path in some areas. Think of it as being enrolled in an "honours" course. This might be impatience on your part or just a determination to address some key issues.

We did some interesting things awhile back with Containments. This is a nice way of looking at planetary groupings without having to worry about aspects, signs, houses, etc. If you would care to post the Counter-Clockwise order (no signs & degrees, just what come first and what comes next) of your ASC and rising planets we could see if some interesting observations arise. The order of the planets, as we have shown in another thread, can be very enlightening.

But one thing is certain, all that stuff in the rising sign certainly points to bringing all those specific energies into your personality and your daily living experience. Dave

skytwig
07-12-2003, 10:59
Thank you so much, Dave.

I don't know if I'm looking at this chart right, but here are the planets in the bottom left corner (counterclockwise)

Sun, Mercury, Pluto. Venus, Moon, Saturn, Neptune

:)

Moongold
07-12-2003, 11:09
Fascinating discussion.

How do you create an arc, Dave. Pardon me if this is a naÔve question J.

I am not able to change my location at present, and I live just a few minutes from the hospital where I was born. I have written to the hospital requesting confirmation of time of birth but that was such a long time ago now Iím wondering if they have it on record. Havenít heard anything back from them yet.

Another way of dealing with this is knowing yourself really well and deciding to use the energies creatively. I had some difficult transits recently and they seemed to affect me spiritually and physically on the day in a major way. I wonder whether I might not have been able to deal with this differently had I been aware.

I could remember to look at the major transits in advance and think about how they may affect me and how awareness may change this.

Today I have some hard Moon transits and Iím simply spending the day alone rearranging my unit and thinking positively about most things. Oddly enough, I had a Moon square Uranus transit at 5.55am this morning and I had another feeling of unease at almost exactly that time of being outside the general thinking of a particular group of people. This feeling is quite characteristic of this transit Ė being outside the norm. Instead of reeling to that I stayed with the feeling for a few minutes and then walked through it calmly, continuing with my writing, because I was right (for me) and it was OK. Itís about being aware and true to oneself and not the victim of aching unease. I only just checked these transits now, while writing this post.

It seems to me that this may be a more realistic approach Ė for me anyway ~ knowing myself really well and making choices about how to manage the energies.

Moongold

Minderwiz
07-12-2003, 21:12
Whilst like any transit, transits of the outer planets perfect at one minute in time they are likely to be effective for at least weeks and quite possibly months.

The reason for this lies in their slow movement. For example Pluto is currently at 19 degrees 35 minutes Sagittarius. If we allow an orb of two degrees either side for the transit to be noticeable (and some might allow wider orbs than this) - we have to go back to the 4th October to find it at 17 degrees 35 minutes - over two months ago and it will not reach 21 degrees 35 minutes till 4th February next year.

For someone who has, say their Moon at 19 degrees 35 Gemini, this transit is going to be in their lives for four months.

Unfortunately, relocation will not help here. The natal Moon remains at 19 degrees 35 Gemini, no matter whre on Earth the person relocates to - so this transit will be 'endured' just the same. It is possible that a relocation moves the Moon from being angular and therefore reduces the transit effects somewhat but the Moon is such an important part of the chart that it will still be felt at a significant level. If the relocation moved the Moon to an angle then the transit might well have been intensified a little.

As I said above, relocation may 'improve' the chart in one area but it usually has costs as well - some other part of the chart is weakened. Relocation is always but always a balancing act - there will be gains and losses.

dadsnook2000
07-12-2003, 23:55
OK, there are four easy approaches to measuring arcs. The first; your computer software may be able to do this for you. Second, you have to allocate 30 degrees for each sign, starting with Aries, plus the degrees and minutes of a planet's position to get it's total degrees and minutes from the aries point. Third, this last approach can be done easily with a hand calculator. The fourth easy approach will be noted later in this post.

We will look first at doing the calculations, and following that an easy way to approach what might look like a daunting task.

CALCULATIONS:
Example: If you had Planet One at 17-Leo-10, you would add 30 degrees for each sign starting at Aries (Aries, Taurus, Gemini, Cancer -- four signs = 120 degrees). You would add 17 degrees and 10 minutes for a total of 137 degrees 10 minutes. This is the postion of Planet One.

You would do the same for another planet. Lets say that Planet Two is at 21-Libra-20. Its position from the Aries point would be 201 degrees 20 minutes.

Now, you subtract the smaller position value from the larger to get an answer of (201-20 minus 137-10) 64 degrees and 10 minutes of arc.

APPLICATION:
When you print out a chart it is relatively easy to estimate an arc just by looking at the chart. A computer printout that is plotted against an actual circle (and not against a 12 house diagram) can permit you to use a divider or even a ruler to measure between points on a circle -- this helps you find apparent equal arcs.

Let us say that you have a heavy transit that seems to be symbolizing events in your life but these events seem to reflect more than the transiting and contacted planet's meanings. The FOURTH EASY APPROACH is to run a mid-point listing. Look for any pairing that involves the transiting and the transited planet. Among these pairings, look for a common mid-point (within a degree or so at most). Highlight these pairings. The planets that are involved in these pairings, when you measure their positions and arcs will likely yield come equal arc pairings. Any other planet having an equal arc with the transited or transiting planets will be involved in the interpretation.

THINK ABOUT IT. If you have a square between Moon and Saturn for example, you cannot ever transit either Moon or Saturn without bringing the other planet into the interpretation. The same is true of equal arcs. Its just that the use of arcs is often too much for early-on students to assimilate. After awhile it just comes naturally. Dave.

skytwig
08-12-2003, 03:08
Dave and minderwiz.... you two are good teachers.... thank you

You're right, Dave, I am struggling to understand the ARC thingy, but your last statement about squares made so much sense! So, to a certain degree, a square requires ACCEPTANCE.... kinda like working with a condition that won't change?

And Minderwiz.... one thing i have noticed is that I feel transitions more on their approach than on the other side of the transit... it tends to drive me nuts. i don't know if it is all the Cancer i have in my chart or what, but i feel like a darned barometer at times.....

The last moom eclipse/Harmonic dance had me almost climbing the walls before the actual night.... but the eclipse itself was a fantastic experience; i swear I could feel the alignment of sun,earth, moon and was meditating as it happened..... it was a relief....

I think of animals and how they 'read' and react to nature .... that's how strong it gets for me.....

I have been exploring Astrodienst since we first brought up Relocation charts (they have them there for free) and I am blown away by the articles they have on my birth influences, expecially Saturn ..... all that trouble with my family is there.... all the rejection and harm.....

What do you two think of Astrodienst..... and what other sites do you think well of? :)

Moongold
08-12-2003, 03:31
My software does a solar arc chart. Is that what we are discussing. or something different?

I always wondered what it was.

Many thanks

Moongold

Minderwiz
08-12-2003, 06:33
Solar Arcs are one way of doing progressions - you progress all planets by one degree for each year of life. This is based on the mean solar movement of one degree per day (Solar Arc) so it's a version of the day for year progression. The difference being that ALL planets are moved by the daily movement of the Sun.

A good(ish) book is Solar Arcs by Noel Tyl.

Skytwig, there's good Astrological theory to support your experience that it's applying Transits that are more evident than the separating ones. For this reason many astrologers will cut down the 'exit' orb to say one degree and use two degrees for the applying orb.

Dave makes the important point that transits will affect not only the planet transited but also other planets linked to it through aspect.

I think both Dave and I use AstrolDeluxe by Halloran software - this easily enables a switch between placements measured by zodiac and placements in degrees. It also allows a quick check midpoints, aspects to midpoints and transits to midpoints.

skytwig
08-12-2003, 07:07
Yes, I can also feel the 'touches' of transits, we all can, i think..... how they affect other aspects in our chart (which is actually a description of our energetic formation; our 'construction').....

and I think as Moongold pointed out, we learn how to work with those influences..... If I understand that something is affecting me, especially if it is dramatic in some way, I will lighten up on myself.... I will even laugh at it sometimes, which really has a lightening affect....

What is difficult for me is when it manifests very dramatically in the situational aspects of my life, like my relationship with my daughter right now...... the issues cut so deep it is really befuddling.....

But what I am doing in this is looking within, praying for revelation, for awareness, and for guidance as to the work, the spiritual work, i am being called to do in this situation..... Saturn is the Teacher, in many ways, for me right now..... Saturn is exposing the underlying structures and some of them just need to be changed!!! Their worthiness is past, they need to have new beliefs and new ideals woven into place.... and the truth is, there are new beliefs in place, they just need to replace the standard stuff from my past..... in a very deep way, not superficially as it has been.....

I think we experience a kind of reincarnation within lifetimes..... I felt it when i got my Reiki attunements 6 yrs ago..... and it was at that time that i 'divorced' the very dysfunctional birth family..... so it would make sense that Saturn would demand a deep shifting.......

But the work, too, can be, ok, we have this heavy stuff occurring, how do we lighten it up and and some faerie energy in this.... something to help us through? (Maybe it is time to get the Fey Tarot, who knows :) )

Oh, and Dave..... what was that about the containment stuff you started to explain a few posts back?

dadsnook2000
08-12-2003, 11:15
Skytwig. Search for threads with Containments or for Planets in Containment. We did an extensive thread explaining this sort-of unknown theory. You can get the whole story there. This system lets you interpret a chart without houses, signs, aspects and rulerships. The individual statements or interpretations of the components will read differently than aspects, etc., but the whole interpretation will be very valid. Dave.

dadsnook2000
08-12-2003, 11:52
What are the "Containment" interpretations in your chart?
You provided the following CCW order: Sun, Mercury, Pluto, Venus, Moon, Saturn, Neptune.

Sun-MERCURY-Pluto: Core values influence perceptions, and those perceptions lead to purposeful thoughts and conclusions. The Sun, which represents a strong drive to integrate various portions of the personality, utilizes logic and accute perception to concieve and construct wide-scale concepts. Ones values can be clearly communicated with great effectiveness and persuasion.

Mercury-PLUTO-Venus: An intense communicator, these people can tend to over-sell ideas, over-value passion and the possessions of others, swindle or bargain intensely -- even when others do not want to participate. Words can seem like greed unless carefully directed and expressed.

Pluto-VENUS-Moon: An intense sensuousness can be aroused by others or by a perceived need. One who may love too much, too easily, too soon. An emotional "jumper."

Venus-MOON-Saturn: Possessions and valued associations are acquired and collected for their future use. Friends are cultivated and appreciated, and kept for a lifetime. Older acquaintenances are listened to. Collections are shared. One draws on ones own experiences and resources to meet strategic goals. These people can be planners, pack rats, collectors, ones who share their resources carefully.

Moon-SATURN-Neptune: One has to overcome a basic sense of being vulnerable, of fearing the future. A structured lifestyle can safely permit responses and free-wheeling involvement with art, fantasy, large social structures. Outside of a defined lifestyle, there may be reason for fearing the public or the perceived fashions of the public mind. Judgement is best exercise on familiar ground.

As you can see, these interpretations do not use aspects, houses or signs but merely the prior and following planets. The idea is that the middle or focus planet builds upon the prior planet in such a way to move towards the meanings of the following planet. If you find these observations wrong or applicable, I'm sure that both Minderwiz and I will both appreciate your sharing your views. Minderwiz may have a different view of these combinations but I'm sure he'll still be interested in your response. Dave.

Nevada
08-12-2003, 12:02
Originally posted by Mystic Zyl
If you could change anything about your natal chart, what would it be?

Mine would be that my Mars would be in any other sign than Pisces retrograde, like Aries direct. Mars Pisces rx for me is not a motivatng placement, in fact I know it is a determent position. And can we talk, the Mars-Pisces retrograde just about killed me. I could have lived in bed the entire time this summer.

What is your complaint? Or are you perfect? Either way let us know. My Mars is also in Pisces, in my 4th house, and there are times that I swear I border on agoraphobia. I'm very much a homebody, always have been. I enjoy travel for pleasure, but when I was forced to travel alone on business, it just about killed me to leave home. It didn't help that my dog learned the sound of the zippers on my suitcase, and if he heard them he'd come give me this accusing, "where do you think you're going?" look.

Nevada

firestorm
08-12-2003, 12:08
If I could, I'd change my Aries Moon. It's very volatile and it's taken me most of my life to control its effects. Not to mention the fact, I read in an astrology book once that Taurus Sun and Aries Moon don't mix together well in the same chart......I guess I've never forgotten that.

dadsnook2000
08-12-2003, 12:16
Enough of Mars Rx in Pisces. How would you like to try on Saturn Rx in Pisces, opposite the Sun & Neptune, and square Jupiter? Now you have something to think about. Conservatism versus Core Values and Ideals, struggeling with Opportunism. All of this in angular houses, no less. Ohh. Its taken awhile to work this all out, believe me. Dave.

dadsnook2000
08-12-2003, 13:52
Volatility can be due to many things. With Mercury square Uranus, Venus squaring an opposition between Jupiter and Pluto, and Saturn squaring an opposition between Sun and Neptune -- well thats enough to contribute to quite a complex situation!!!

A Taurus Sun that doesn't connect directly with the Moon/Mars combination might get lost in the weight of the aspects noted above -- that plus Moon conjunct Mars. Besides, a negative thought is NOT (edited) very helpful. It's those T-squares that can make things work for you, sooner or later.

I'm a little familiar with the Sun-Saturn-Neptune combination. In my case Sun conjuncts Neptune and opposes Saturn -- I build bridges between concepts and structures, ideas and plans, a way to succeed, etc. My pattern also t-squares my Jupiter so I can get away with building dreams into reality. How do you express your pattern?

The Venus square Jupiter-opposite-Pluto suggests one who can arrange situations, or artistically represent big ideas -- marketing, real estate development, concept designs, whatever. Any form of that in your real life? Especially with the Mercury & Venus pattern, there tends to be an artistic quality in some way. Dave.

Mystic Zyl
09-12-2003, 00:09
Firestorm, Moon in Aries was what gave you the courage to tell that person off in the bookstore! I can imagine you might fly off the handle at times, but sometimes it is needed. This placement probably kept you from being a doormat.

Mystic Zyl
09-12-2003, 00:10
So dadsnook, what you are saying you won't sell out for money. I hope you run for a political office.

isthmus nekoi
10-12-2003, 06:55
I think things are fine in my chart but it would have been nice though, if my sun got some planetary support being weakly placed (in 12th, squared by its ruler, Saturn). I don't mind the 12th house placement though. You don't need much sunlight and take well to closed in places. Very good trait for the studious researcher lol.

One thing I would like to change is the transiting planets. Could transiting Jupiter trine my sun all the time?...... :D

skytwig
10-12-2003, 07:11
Originally posted by isthmus nekoi
I think things are fine in my chart ..... One thing I would like to change is the transiting planets. Could transiting Jupiter trine my sun all the time?...... :D Wow, I am envious.... could you tell us more about your natal chart, isthmus? :)

isthmus nekoi
10-12-2003, 07:23
lol... the Saturn square sun thing activating 8th and 12th houses isn't something I'd wish upon anyone else!! Hm.. there's nothing really spectacular about my chart, but everything depositing to a Jupiter-Venus mutual reception is pretty nice :) Maybe it's the optimistic Sag moon that keeps me pretty happy w/my lot!

Minderwiz
10-12-2003, 08:39
Now that's what I call a happy chart - Jupiter and Venus rule!!!

It's just unfortunate that from time to time some dreary planet like Saturn puts his head over the wall and says that life's going to be difficult for the next month or so.

Nice to see you back Isthmus !

skytwig
10-12-2003, 09:05
Originally posted by dadsnook2000
What are the "Containment" interpretations in your chart?
You provided the following CCW order: Sun, Mercury, Pluto, Venus, Moon, Saturn, Neptune.

Sun-MERCURY-Pluto: Ones values can be clearly communicated with great effectiveness and persuasion. This is true.... i am a writer and a speaker.

Mercury-PLUTO-Venus: An intense communicator, these people can tend to over-sell ideas, over-value passion and the possessions of others, swindle or bargain intensely -- even when others do not want to participate. Words can seem like greed unless carefully directed and expressed. I used to be in sales.... couldn't be nasty or sneaky enough to make the money my intelligence would 'normally' allow..... As i stated before, i am a speaker who can captivate the audience..... I feel tremendous responsibility for that.... which is the Pluto influence?

Pluto-VENUS-Moon: An intense sensuousness can be aroused by others or by a perceived need. One who may love too much, too easily, too soon. An emotional "jumper." Hmmmmm, no.... I am passionate, but very cautious (I am a Crab afterall!)

Venus-MOON-Saturn: Possessions and valued associations are acquired and collected for their future use. Friends are cultivated and appreciated, and kept for a lifetime. Older acquaintenances are listened to. Collections are shared. One draws on ones own experiences and resources to meet strategic goals. These people can be planners, pack rats, collectors, ones who share their resources carefully. Yes and no.... I do honor older people and their experience..... I don't have lifetime friends..... I know this is a Cancer thing, but I really could care less about possessions...... I do value my gemstones and my books and my art stuff, but I'd say the thing about the moon that is so strong with me is the unconscious and the psyche..... I am fascinated by Psychology and the Brain, especially the history of a person's brain and disorder development!!!

Moon-SATURN-Neptune: One has to overcome a basic sense of being vulnerable, of fearing the future. A structured lifestyle can safely permit responses and free-wheeling involvement with art, fantasy, large social structures. Outside of a defined lifestyle, there may be reason for fearing the public or the perceived fashions of the public mind. Judgement is best exercise on familiar ground. This one i don't understand.... I am a gypsy spirit......

Dave.... i appreciate you doing this for me..... i rhink I see the gist of it and could probably understand it better if i try to work it to match my personality more specifically ....... maybe finetune what you wrote.....

:)

firestorm
10-12-2003, 15:05
Dadsnook: Complex situation doesn't even begin to describe it.
My Gemini ascendent brings even more life to the party. :D

I'd have to say that I build bridges between plans and people. No matter what I've ever done, I always find myself in a leadership position, whether I like it or not!

Too funny! I was a marketing manager before I quit to stay home with my kids, I began real estate investing 4 years ago and interior design is a huge hobby for me and most who know me have been encouraging me to get into that field! Thank you for all your insight, I'm just starting to learn about planetary positions so I really appreciate it.

Mystic Zyl: You crack me up! :D You're right though. Are we still going shopping? ;)

Mystic Zyl
12-12-2003, 02:43
Sure Firestorm, lets shop. I live 10 minutes away from the Michigan state line, in Toledo Ohio. Barnes and Noble will never forget us!

isthmus nekoi
12-12-2003, 11:29
Originally posted by Minderwiz
Now that's what I call a happy chart - Jupiter and Venus rule!!!

It's just unfortunate that from time to time some dreary planet like Saturn puts his head over the wall and says that life's going to be difficult for the next month or so.

Nice to see you back Isthmus !

Oh, I just read this... thanks Minderwiz :) Oh dreary Saturn. There I was being so concerned about the Saturn-Saturn square when I should have been paying attn to his opposition to my poor little sun!! lol. That's okay: natal Saturn quintiles Venus so he's my planet of tough love....

skytwig
13-12-2003, 02:16
Originally posted by Mystic Zyl
Sure Firestorm, lets shop. I live 10 minutes away from the Michigan state line, in Toledo Ohio. Barnes and Noble will never forget us!

Wow, what is the michigan connection here????

I was born and raised in Battle Creek.....

Maybe it's the Big Water..... oh, how I miss it!! (Michigan was a perfect place for a double Cancer.... mermaid blood, you know.......)