Liber Legis

[isthmus nekoi]

Just wrote a paper on this for school. I highly recommend reading this in conjunction w/his 'extenuation' in order to gain understanding of the Thoth deck. Crowley's descriptions make some important links and elabourates on imagery only touched upon in the Book of Thoth.

The Law is for All should contain both the text from Liber Legis and Crowley's notes. I would recommend the 1975 version published by Llewellyn.

[bagheera444]

Greetings

noticed your post for understanding the thot tarot

i might suggest a look at the Vision and the voice by Crowley as well to add weight to your propostion on understanding the Crowley tarot. In it are numerous ideas that explore the tarot from a Enochian Aethyr point of view ,said to be deeper than qabalisitic study of tarot.but bringing in aspects of the New Aeon as prescribed in lib Al linking to what you wrote

The Thelemic point of view and new Aeon mnemonics laid out in THe book of the law is really only useful for those who accept Liber Al as a document in class A ,who want to apply the Thelemic "Cult"ure to there study of the Said Deck


For those of us that study the Crowley Tarot free from thelemic "cult"ure doctrine, are able to explore from other angles
and still gain good insights with or without The book of the law

Regards
Bagheera

[isthmus nekoi]

lol, not suggesting you can't study the deck w/o Liber Legis, but I've found it helps. I'd hardly call Thelema a cult either if that is what you mean by writing "cult"ure. Cults function on fear, manipulation and money. Maybe some Thelemic groups function on the same thing, but not the Liber Legis itself. LL is just a book :)

The cards whose meanings are most affected by LL are The Heirophant, The Tower and THe Aeon, I've found. Especially the Aeon.

[bagheera444]

Greetings,
thelema itself as percieved by those who study that particular strand of thought would probably not see it as a cult. A philosophy ,a way of being ,a path to enlightenment -whatever some even i'm sure don't mind viewing themselves as being part of some cult! Are you a thelemic follower , if so, sorry i offended your principles!
Have you just discovered Liber Al? Be warned !
I can understand your zeal if this is the case. applying it's concepts to tarot is sounding a bit faddish thou.Wouldn't you agree?

the manifestation of thelema in occult groups like O.T.O with its FEARFUL (percieved) initiation rituals and threats of decapitation or disembowlment are quasi masonic but to some, veiled threat or not a scary thought and not at all the actions of a normal gathering of people. The demands for more MONEY the more initiations you take sounds a bit cultish .The CONTROL aspect (something you missed )begins to appear here as leaders who are undeserving even of their pompous titles ,MISLEAD, MISINFORM and generally act as pretend masters who unfortunately believe their own sense of self worth while looking to exploit the good will (thelema) aspect from within its membership.

To insist on secrecy ,to manipulate members for power, profit ,or some misguided spiritual principle is i hate to say it a wee bit cultish

To accept Liber Al as your holy book above others is as maladjusted to real life as those who take up some jihad in the name of some God while following some misguided principle in a holy book . link here to liber al vel legis

I hope you know where you stand with yourself on this.Don't be a sheep a follower wake up to yourself without the props or the hole in your wallet. I've seen what being involved in a group like O.T.O .Heavens Gate ,Scientology can do to people who take leave of their senses

Bagheera444

[isthmus nekoi]

Woah Bagheera... thanks for your concern but.... chillax! No, I'm not a follower of Thelema - I thought it was clear I was just talking about the book. Much of the commentary for The Law is for All was written in black humour and should be taken as such. Liber Legis is a very brief text and doesn't have anything to do w/cults; although you could interpret it that way. But honestly, you can put a cultish interpretive slant on any text that is numinous and ambiguous. Anyone who binds themselves to a text in such a way is asking for trouble.

[paradoxx]

Originally posted by isthmus nekoi
Cults function on fear, manipulation and money.

Government

[Kiama]

Originally posted by bagheera444
the manifestation of thelema in occult groups like O.T.O with its FEARFUL (percieved) initiation rituals and threats of decapitation or disembowlment are quasi masonic but to some, veiled threat or not a scary thought and not at all the actions of a normal gathering of people. The demands for more MONEY the more initiations you take sounds a bit cultish .The CONTROL aspect (something you missed )begins to appear here as leaders who are undeserving even of their pompous titles ,MISLEAD, MISINFORM and generally act as pretend masters who unfortunately believe their own sense of self worth while looking to exploit the good will (thelema) aspect from within its membership.

To insist on secrecy ,to manipulate members for power, profit ,or some misguided spiritual principle is i hate to say it a wee bit cultish

Hello Bagheera444,

I think that there is a big difference between the philosophy of Thelema itself and the groups that follow Thelema. Amongst my Thelemic friends, the OTO is seen as a pale shadow of its former self, and is very much shied away from: it is viewed with contempt for its actions, and seen as nothing more than an excuse to take alot of dangerous drugs. Thelema itself however, cannot be a cult because it is a philosophy. When it is applied in some groups however, those groups may become a cult, but not the philosophy they hold onto.

Analgous to this, I will bring up the religion/philosophy of Christianity: many would say this is certainly not a cult, but when you look at the Nunneries that are a 'subsidiary' of the umbrella-term that is Christianity, many would say they are cults indeed. But the teachings of the Bible can not be seen as a cult because they are merely words until acted upon by somebody.

(I hope I explained that okay...)

As for studying Liber Legis alongside Tarot, I think isthmus-nekoi is onto something here, especially when referring to the Thoth deck.

True, one can definitely use the Thoth deck in readings without understanding anything of Thelema, but the fact is that Crowley designed it based on Thelemic principles, and these concepts are imbued in the deck itself. If you wish to study the Thoth deck for other purposes, say, because you wish to understand each image in the context of that specific deck (instead of in the context of traditional Tarot meanings), then I would say it is essential to understand where on earth Crowley was coming from! Since Liber Legis is seen as the primary work of Thelema, I would say it's a pretty good place to start.

The Lust card in the deck is a primary example of what I'm talking about: if you wish to use the deck for divination, then this card will take on the traditional meanings of Strength. But if you want to understand the concepts behind the card, you will need to first understand what Crowley throught of women, his concept of the Whore of Babylon, and his 'Scarlet Woman'. All these concepts are written about or alluded to in Crowley's works, and in Liber Legis you could say that the whole of Chapter 1 is devoted to this concept.

(Agh! I've just become a centre of pestilence...! It says in Liber Legis that anybody who discusses it will be a centre of pestilence. Ah well...)

So, that's my personal take on all this. :D

Blessings,

Kiama

[firemaiden]

Kiama that is beautifully put. I would love it if we could go through the deck in this study group and discuss the relevant revelations from the Liber Legis.

[Kiama]

Originally posted by firemaiden
Kiama that is beautifully put. I would love it if we could go through the deck in this study group and discuss the relevant revelations from the Liber Legis.

Ah, but that would of course make us all 'centres of pestilence'... })

I'd like to do this though. I don't know much about it, though. I'm sure there is somebody somewhere on Aeclectic who knows lots about Liber Legis and the Thoth deck though...?

Kiama *A centre of pestilence*

[jema]

if you go on with that idea(of a study group) even i might get out from the rock i have been hiding under...

[Macavity]

Well, here's a quick 'n' easy work out for those so inclined? <mostly joking> })

http://members.fortunecity.com/patrickm/liberp.htm

I don't know whether this is "true" but it seems to illustrate some of the techniques one might use on such material? I think it might be fun to play around with some of these sundry Hebrew Alphabet games to get the idea? Who knows what you'll come up with? I had also been e.g. puzzled by some of Crowley's Egyptian (Pantheon) names! This site e.g. usefully points out that they were likely obtained from the Wallis Budge translations, which, although perhaps out of favour with modern Egyptologists, were very much at the cutting edge when Crowley was a lad? :)

Macavity

[isthmus nekoi]

Thanks for the link, Macavity!

Oh yes, and if people are willing to discuss, I'd love to. Just the incredible power and pressure of the astrological transits Crowley was under when he 'wrote' LL is just......... when I saw that, that's when I believed that he wasn't totally exaggerating when he wrote that he channeled the whole text...... yes, yes, I'd love to talk about all this in conjunction w/the Thoth deck.

[Kiama]

Well, seems like there's a lot of interest here. :D Go on then, let's give it a go...! I'll have to track down a copy of Liber Legis first however... *Goes hunting* I'm sure it's own the net somewhere...

I suppose we should start at the beginning, with Chapter 1? There are only 3 chapters, one spoken by Nuit, (Chapter 1), and the last two spoken by male Gods (can't remember their names!) Maybe one was Osiris, and the other Ra? Or was there Horus in there somewhere... I think Horus was the Last (3rd) chapter...

Kiama

[isthmus nekoi]

Yes, that's correct :) God the Mother, God the Father and then the synthesis, the child. The text (which is very very short) is available here:
http://www.sacred-texts.com/oto/engccxx.htm

[Kiama]

Thanks for the link to Liber Legis, Isthmus!

Now, how do we go about discussing it in relation to the Thoth deck? Should we do one chapter per thread, and just see where it takes us? I think it would be a little difficult doing it card-by-card, because not all cards are found explicitly in the text.

Kiama

[isthmus nekoi]

I think if we base discussion on the cards, it would be most on topic. If I recall correctly, The Hermit, The Hierophant (grade of the lover) and The Tower (grade of the man of earth) relate germantically (is that a word lol) to Thelema. Strength and The Aeon are also good places to start. Esp the Aeon for obvious reasons.

If we go chapter by chapter, we'll fly off on a lot of tangents. But most of them would be worth flying for I'd reckon!

[yinpox]

My father used to study karate and each time he wanted to test for a new belt (the next grades initiation) he had to pay for the test. How else is the dojo, lodge, going to keep the lights on?
In THE COMMENT after the text of liber al it states "All questions of the law are to be decided only by appeal to my writings, each for himself." Telling people to make up there own mind does not sound very "cultish" to me.