Ed-a Thoth Requirement?

[jog1118]

hi there to everyone...just would like to ask a question:

does the use of the thoth require elemental dignities or have you guys tried out readings without the ED's?

since i've had my thoth deck (that was just last month) i've always felt that ED's is a must for the thoth...

looking forward to your replies...

:smoker:

[Rusty Neon]

Although both the Golden Dawn and Crowley used EDs, you certainly don't need to use EDs to use the Thoth deck. You can use EDs; combination of EDs and reversals; reversals; or simply use the cards upright without use of reversals or EDs. If you don't need EDs to use the RWS deck, you don't need EDs to use the Thoth deck.

[Thea Lynx]

Hi Jog,

I didn't use elemental dignities initially when working with the Thoth as I just had no clue what they were. Even my Ziegler Mirror of the Soul didn't seem to address the subject, so I tried to view the overall spread and consider the full range of meaning - from real positive to real negative - for each card. Then, a short time ago I came across a simple explanation (maybe too simple for those more knowledgeable than I). It referred to Wands and Cups as positive and Swords as Corrective/Negative and Disks/Pentacles as mostly neutral. A card can be influenced to the negative or positive aspect depending on the card that came next to it in the spread. Using that general guideline seemed to work very well. For example, if the Empress was followed by a Sword, it could indicate a more negative "reversed" meaning would be more appropriate in that instance. But, I'm just learning how to apply the concept of dignities and am not using them in all cases on all Thoth style decks. Pehaps once I have time to study the concept more I be able to apply it more confidently.

Thea Lynx

[FourLeafClover]

Sorry, but, what's an ED?

[inanna_tarot]

Originally posted by FourLeafClover
Sorry, but, what's an ED?

I second that! Need more ED info here people!!

Sezo
x

[Phoenyx*]

Elemental dignity (or is it dignitary?), each of the suits is associated with an element. Each of the elements seems to have an opposing element.
In the LWB that comes with the Thoth, the spread given (I believe it is the Golden Dawn spread...someone help me out here) groups the cards in groups of threes. The middle card is affected by the elements on either side of it, thus the elemental dignities.

(Edit: Added the following)

After getting off my lazy butt, here's the spread given in the LWB, in case you don't have it anymore:

13...9....5...................................................4...8...12

.............................2...1...3.......................................

14...10...6..................................................7...11...15

Card 1 represents the querent and the nature of the problem and primary influences.
Cards 2 and 3 in conjunction with card 1, are the key cards describing the nature of the situation and the personality of the querent.
Cards 13, 9, 5 and 4, 8 and 12 indicate two potentials for the future. If the complement one another then 13, 9 and 5 are a development of 4, 8 and 12. If they conflict, then 4, 8 and 12 are the path the puerent's path will naturally go unless action is taken to change this course. 13, 9 and 5 would be considered possibilities of alternative acton.
Cards 14, 10 and 6 assist the querent in making whatever decision is necessary. They indicate the psychological basis and implications of the issue.
Cards 7, 11 and 15 show forces operating beyond the querant's control - destiny or karma - to which the querent can adapt. These may constitute advice as well.

[Rusty Neon]

Originally posted by Triquetra
The middle card is affected by the elements on either side of it, thus the elemental dignities.


Yes, that's the basic idea of elemental dignities (EDs). For more detail, see the www.tarotmoon.com and www.supertarot.co.uk websites and various threads on Aeclectic including the following:

http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=20116

http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=18688

http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=17439

For other threads, go onto the search function and search under: elemental dignities

http://www.tarotforum.net/search.php?s=

[HOLMES]

for the longest time at least a decade i thought the term
"ill dignified "was refering to the reversals of the cards and not the elemental energy in conjunction of the surroundign cards.

it doesn't have to be toth requirement, just as the astrology, qabalistic doesn't have to be a requirement.

with that in mind it becomes quite the depth study when we go what was this meaning and that meaning.
i think elemental dignities deals with just the astrological element of the card in conjunction with the surrounding card ?
making a kind of aspective reading ?

[Original Destiny]

I guess i take a very open view on the Tarot.... for me there are no set rules... you have to do what feels best for you.... its all about imagery, and imagery deals with impressions, feelings and intuition... the beauty of the Tarot is its openness. it works on the senses not on cognitive processes.... So go with what feels right for you... SENSE your needs and if you need to Use elementals then do so....

[FourLeafClover]

While I admit I'm VERY much a beginner, I'm going to say that ED's (now that I know what they are) are probably not necessary. All spreads have places where a card would naturally be taken positively or negatively.
For example, in a Celtic Cross, the 2 of Swords "Peace" would be taken very differntly in the "Outcome" position than it would in the "Obstacle" position.

[Phoenyx*]

I believe it depends on the reader. Personally, I *love* the elements, so, my attraction to the elemental dignities is strong. If a reader isn't attracted to them, there is still so much other stuff going on in the Thoth, that you could very well read without them.

[Thea Lynx]

I have to agree with Triquetra about the EDs - Now that I have learned a bit about what they are, I find that when I work with a Thoth style deck, they make a lot of sense and help to clarify the spread. Mostly, I am doing a small daily spread for myself, but I occasionally get the opportunity to read for another, and have found it most helpful to use the system the deck was designed for. Many times, I have found meanings from a Rider style seem most pertinent to a Thoth spread and vice versa - I too have learned to go with my instincts in this regard. As one other student in my Tarot class says, the cards don't lie - you just have to learn how to listen.

Thea Lynx

[Macavity]

I think if used to maximum potential then the philosophy is really quite different from a "meanings plus spread" reading. Instead of adding elements later on, they are used at the start, but principally as an adjunct to counting and pairing techniques. It is these then that create the Tarot "story" - Much indeed, as suggested by Crowley. (Though we know what HE allegedly thought of "fortune telling"!) The cards then work quasi-independantly of the deck used. (Great news too - for some of us!) But a most crucial point is that card divinatory ideas are added as a THIN layer at the very end. I do recommend PHB's book (Recently got one myself!) :D

http://www.aeonbooks.co.uk/tarotmagusai.html

Perhaps not for the VERY beginner. But certainly quite approachable... Not e.g. to be rejected just because... it's the Thoth deck, it might be Hard etc., it's Magick etc.

Macavity

Empashioned plea over! :laugh: