View Full Version : Why do you like the Rider-Waite Tarot Deck?
Rusty Neon
17-12-2003, 00:43
With all the various threads one sees which put down the Rider-Waite tarot deck for a variety of reasons, I thought it would be fair to have a thread highlighting the deck's virtues.
In my case, I like the Rider-Waite tarot deck for various reasons, including the following:
- The deck is and continues to be a pioneer in bringing illustrated pip card decks to the forefront in Anglo-American tarot.
- Its illustrated pip card make the learning of card meanings easier for newcomers to tarot, yet the deck has the depth to keep advanced tarotists satisified.
- It is a unique synthesis of the Etteilla and Golden Dawn tarot traditions.
- Its pip card imagery has, in effect, created a pip card lingua franca for tarotists of the Anglo-American tarot tradition.
- It is the basis of the imagery for a vast number of Anglo-American tarot decks. Learning its imagery helps in the study of other decks of the Anglo-American tarot tradition.
- There is a vast instructional and commentary literature relating to this deck.
- Its images are iconographic and memorable. Even to those who have no knowledge of tarot, this deck often defines what a tarot deck looks like.
- The artwork in the deck is both familiar and mysterious.
- Although there are many tarot decks inspired by the Rider-Waite deck, the pip cards of the Rider-Waite remain unique. A given R-W pip card has imagery that is intentionally 'ambiguous' enough to convey a wide range of intended or intuitive meanings. Virtually all decks inspired by the Rider-Waite (other than true clones of the R-W) have pip cards whose imagery convey a subset rather than the full set of the meanings conveyed by the R-W.
Jewel-ry
17-12-2003, 01:31
You have kind of hit the nail on the head here Rusty Neon. I dont really think there is anything else to say. I think the fact that the images are so well known and can be interpreted in many different ways is a good reason to like it. If I am working with a non conventional deck and the card doesn't speak to me I'll admit the Rider Waite image can be easily recalled and its meaning. Cheating probably!
J :)
Tarot Sparrow
17-12-2003, 02:18
I inspired this with my bashing, didn't I? :D
I don't hate the Rider-Waite, I think it conveys great messages and so many decks are modelled after it. It definitely is a pioneer. I just tend to go more for the eye candy decks than the plain looking ones. But not to fear, I plan to get the Radiant Rider-Waite, that one I like.
Rusty Neon
17-12-2003, 06:36
Dead Star, don't give yourself credit. I can assure you that you're not the source. I've been planning this thread for several weeks already.
Great to see this thread, Rusty Neon...
Though I may be one which often bemoans the deck's influence and popularity, it deserves to be amongst those which have a special place in Tarot history. It, like the Etteilla before it, dared to be both different to its predecessors and true to its tasks - in this case, presenting a deck with modifications which somewhat matched Golden Dawn views in its Major Arcana depictions, and depicted its pips partly based on the Sola Busca and, seemingly, comments by Papus.
The details which are repeated in various ways (such as the Moon's towers on XIII), or the Kircher Tree of Life (the version used by the GD) upon the High Priestess and the 10 of Coins, or the various other subtle - yet clear - depictions of elementals on various vestments, or indeed the letter Shin on the Fool, are definitely worthy of investigation...
As to your comment that its scenic pips makes it easier for newcomers to Tarot, I personally do not agree. It may make it appear easier, but, in my view, this is a deceptive ease which may in the long run make things more difficult. On this point, we may have to remain at odds - without thereby taking away from the wonderful contribution made by Waite and Colman Smith to twentieth century Tarot innovation.
:):):)
Le_Corsair
17-12-2003, 08:04
.... There's the art, an' the colors, an' the pretty backs, an' the.....
Oops. You said what I like about the RWS? :joke: :laugh:
Bob :THERM
Originally posted by jmd
It, like the Etteilla before it, dared to be both different to its predecessors and true to its tasks - in this case, presenting a deck with modifications which somewhat matched Golden Dawn views in its Major Arcana depictions, and depicted its pips partly based on the Sola Busca and, seemingly, comments by Papus.Hi jmd, do you have any further information on how comments by Papus may have influenced the RWS pips? I was quite intrigued by your comment.
-- Lee :)
Rusty Neon,
You have obviously put a great deal of thought in to this thread (as always.)
I have been sitting here trying to think of the reason why I chose a RWS based deck. I and guess the reason is because of the ease at which I can move from one deck to another.
I have done comparitive studies with my decks and have found that, while many cards are RWS based, some are Thoth based, and I like that a variey styles influenced the artist's in their designs. Clearly it states an open- mindedness of the artist and a williness to see anothers point of view.
I never find myself bored RWS based deck, and I cannot think of how many times I have looked at a card and thought "I never noticed that before." or have a new meaning brought to mind.
Choosing a deck and style is always something very personal, as is a method in which one learns.
I prefer the illustrated pips, ( I like the pretty pictures) and as you say, it is intuitive reading.
My friend was literally raised on Thoth, and she has both styles of decks, I find that she has no difficulty moving from one deck to another. She can pick up any one of my Riders and read them.
as always Rusty.. another thought invoking thread :)
I did not start with this deck but I started to study seriously with this deck. I have no idea now how I got this deck but I use it all the time now. I think it it just opens your mind naturally without having to try. Also I think it has all the answers to all our questions if we ask. I have other decks but I feel this one is the most natural. But what do I know. lol
i never liked the rider-waite-smith because i disliked the way its illustrated pips make cards appear as either 'bad' or 'good'.
i did finally break down and got one for it's historic value and study purposes.
lo and behold, i discovered the 'spaces' on the cards! while it will never be a favorite deck i am enamored by the empty spaces; so much can be read into them.
Imagemaker
17-12-2003, 13:50
I think the deck provides the basic alphabet of modern tarot readings--having the illustrated pip cards makes all the difference for those learning to read.
And since nearly the majority of tarot books refer to RWS as their standard demo, you can learn a specific author's approach to the basic "alphabet" (images/symbols), and then expand your tarot literacy into other tarot imagery--like Thoth or Osho Zen or Haindl.
The familiar feels secure and sure, too, if you're reading during a very stressful time and want absolute clarity.
I'm new here (thanks, gerbear!) so please excuse if I am posting information that has already been posted; althoughI did read through the thread and didn't see this mentioned previously. I highly recommend http://home.comcast.net/~vilex/ for really cool ultra-detailed information about the various RWS versions and some knock-offs. Holly (site owner) has dedicated a lot of time to researching the idiosynchrasies of these decks, including the (horrible) decks blatantly produced by de Laurence, without regard to copyright (note that he does, however, copyright his plagiarized material from A.E. Waite!).
Cerulean
17-12-2003, 20:32
I liked it better after finding some nice printing samples available by Pamela Colman Smith and two 1971 decks that to me had a nicer line quality than some modern reprints.
It turns out the more I look at her teachers at the Pratt Institute and her work, the more East-West influences and names that I liked from the Meiji period come up for me. I see it from a skewed perspective, though.
------------------------------------------
This is more about PCS as a designer who had some printmaking and Japanese inspired influences.
Her book of the Russian Ballet black and white prints for Ellen Terry is available through vendors at abebooks.com for under the triple digit price of a DeLaurence deck. To me it shows her ability to design for negative space (known as notan).
After reading the Kaplan biography with information from the writer and historian Melinda Boyd Parsons (I will try to correct this if the name is wrong from Volume III of Encyclopedia of the Tarot), with samples of her work in black and white, I noticed PCS had listed herself as a student of Arthur Wesley Dow and Ernest Fenollosa in one of her biographical listings
Arthur Wesley Dow:
http://www.findarticles.com/cf_dls/m1248/11_88/66888244/p2/article.jhtml?term=
----------------------------------
From an online google search of PCS biography/Kaplan's bibliography:
Parsons, Melinda Boyd. "The Rediscovery of Pamela Coleman Smith"
master's thesis, University of Delaware, 1975.
------. _To All Believers -- The Art of Pamela Coleman Smith_ .
exhibition catalog, 1976.
------. "Mysticism in London: The Golden Dawn, Synesthesia, and
'Psychic Automatism' in the Art of Pamela Colman Smith." In _Spiritual
Influences on Modern Art, 1987.
Moakley, Gertrude C. "The Waite-Smith Tarot". _Bulletin of the New
York Public Library_, October 1954.
Rusty Neon: Thanks for this thread!
I like the Rider-Waite Tarot for all the seasons aptly covered by Rusty Neon, JMD & Imagemaker.
It remains a definitive deck for its images, details & symbolism. Its card designs are such that one does not need a book to determine meanings for each of the cards. (Ignorant of Tarot books, the LWB left me cold & it was many years later that I found there exists a wealth of printed material on the deck.)
The first time I saw its images was on what was then Zolar's New Astrological Tarot Fortune Telling Cards. The green, red, black & white colours used are awful. Subsequently, I stumbled upon the actual deck, then published by Samuel Weiser. That is when I found out the colours in the Zolar deck did not do it justice. It has special significance as my first Tarot deck. Since then, the discovery that there are other versions/printings of Rider-Waite (not the re-coloured versions by Mary Hanson-Roberts nor its clones) only add to its intrique.
TemperanceAngel
18-12-2003, 16:20
*Rusty James oh Rusty James....*
Sorry Rusty Neon, I watched Rumble Fish last night, brilliant, without a doubt.
You know I very rarely look in this section, because, well being a RWS gal, I never know anything about other decks....
Thanks, Rusty Neon, I will be back to chat more about my FAVE deck :):):)
XTAX
MoreMagic
18-12-2003, 19:05
Simple me, I was taught with a RWS deck and didn't know for a long time that there were other options. Sometimes I find all the choices overwhelming, and I tend to stay with what I know, and can easily work with. Not the most sophisticated of reasons for preferring RWS and clones, but I think I am not alone in this...
TemperanceAngel
20-12-2003, 18:22
I had my first reading at 17 with RWS and at 19 bought my first deck, RWS :)
Although I have always thought other decks were beautiful, that's really all they have meant to me, beautiful images :)
RWS, couldn't read without it, it is the deck that can deal with issues of the 20th Century, taking us into the 21st and will continue to do so for at least another 100 years.
I love the images, they speak to me so well, the symbols, color and art.
I like the fact that they make sense to my clients as well, if they look a little puzzled I will show them the image and I then see clarity in their faces.
After 15 years I can still look at the deck and see new things :)
So many reasons, the list is endless :D:D:D
XTAX
There is just an ease that comes with reading with this deck. I love all the symbolism and you don't have to be knowledgeable in any particular form of spiritualism to be able to glean meaning from these cards. They speak volumes.
This is also the deck I learned with and I think that has a lot to do with why I love it so much.
Voodoo_Shaman
27-12-2003, 10:30
I like my RW, especially my Radiant, and that funny smell is gone. Thank Good. I thought about the question, and could not come up with a good answer. I do not know why I love my rwt, buyt I just do. I know there are a gazzilion decks out there with better art, and all that Jazz. But for me personally, I have tried to read with them, and it just does not feel the same. I get confused, and the readings are never as good.
The RWT are like an old friend, that brings confort, and you know like the back of your hand. Okay so many people do not like them. Oh well, that is their opinion, and it is respected. I like mine, it works for me. And that is all I have to say about that.
Voodoo Shaman
"... nicer line quality than some modern reprints.
It turns out the more I look at her teachers at the Pratt Institute and her work, the more East-West influences ..."
Mari: Thanks for bringing up some more details about Pam's history. I'm always up for more info about her influences and her style. I've gone through art school a couple of times for different degrees, and taught art at the local university, and I never really get enough information about my favorite artists and styles.
Rather few of us tarot enthusiasts look at the RWS Tarot as a set of 78 artistic compositions, and it's certainly a valid point of view.
---
I have always preferred the visuals of the RWS to other forms/versions of tarot. For me, the Thoth is too angry, arrogant, and exclusive, and the Marseilles is too repetitive and european for my mindset. That's neither right nor wrong; it's just my taste.
But rather than merely choose the RWS visuals over the others, as if to say they're artistically the least offensive of a mixed lot, I find something deeply evocative in the style that turns the RWS Tarot into something special.
Part of that is in the compositions: colored open space mixed with figures and symbols. Some compositions are calming and pleasing, (such as the 6 of Cups or the 8 of Pentacles). Some are frontal and hieratic (such as the 9 of Cups or the High Priestess). Some are motion-filled and turbulent (such as the Tower, or the 2 of Pentacles), or dour and bleak (the Emperor or the 5 of Cups or the 8 of Swords). Each has its own set of reasons for being exactly as it is. None are abstracted to mere shapes or colors, none are simply personal or arbitrary.
Part of that is in the not-quite-right perspectives and anatomy (reminiscent in some ways of Meiji-period artwork, which was so in vogue at the time.). This is done on purpose. If you look at her other artwork, it's clear that Pamela Colman Smith had excellent skills in academic draftsmanship.
Her influences include Japanese art, with its calm open spaces balanced with densely-drawn figures, and also medieval European art, with its flattened perspectives and mannered gestures. Like Cezanne or Picasso or others at the same period in western art, the intention was to break with representational, 'official' art in order to portray something deeper, and Pam Smith was attempting to distill a set of symbolic meanings (for a given card) into the simplest possible arrangement of figures and environments.
That effort involves manipulating relative scale and torquing perspective, but in a restrained way that doesn't call attention to itself. It's all the more impressive when you consider that many cards are intended to contain multiple meanings that might seem contradictory, yet the compositions for all of them function well for a variety of meanings.
Part of it is in the colors. They remind me of the earliest color comics, early poster advertising, and the spread of fine-art aesthetics into mass-produced items. Bear in mind that at the time (1910 or thereabouts), mass production art printing wasn't especially sophisticated. The choice of colors was limited and metal plate lithography was in its infancy. Also, no one is sure what Pam's input into the final color choices might have been, but the gray/yellow/pink/brown/blue range reflects, to me at least, something of the flavor of the times.
I like my Rider Waite tarot, this mainly means the clone decks - Radiant Rider and the Universal Waite, because I had such a hard time trying to learn and get inspired by unillustrated pip cards that by the time I bought my first Rider deck I was very close to giving up. Although I have since found the Soprafino decks to be very pretty.
I like the imagery, and the story of the Fools journey through the Majors made me see for the first time what I had been missing. The Minors make you use your imagination, the first card I ever entered was the Rider Waite Empress card. Its a deck I can always use, I can study it well with my other Rider Waite 'clone' deck the Morgan Greer.
I could go on forever why I like the Rider Waite imagery and artwork - its a beginners deck and also a deck you need never move on from.
isthmus nekoi
28-12-2003, 11:28
It's straightforward and I don't have to meditate upon it for ages if I don't want to, I'll always get a clear answer quickly.
It adapts well to changes in its environment - I don't need any rituals w/this deck and it gives me great flexibility in reading for others.
It's proper, well mannered and extroverted which makes it a fine deck for reading on others. Plus it's printed on a tough stock that can take the shuffling of my drunkest querents!!
It pulls me right into line when I've gone to far (by giving cards telling me to stop) but is willing to indulge me in my little experiments.
...Synesthesia...Synesthesia~as simple as I feel the weights!
And as often as not, I feel them floating too.
The 'geography' of this deck is its own world,
and the clones are usually more like pictures.
Annabelle
10-04-2006, 16:30
It's straightforward and I don't have to meditate upon it for ages if I don't want to, I'll always get a clear answer quickly.
This is true for me as well - this is why I "like" the RWS and its ilk (I favor the Universal Waite for its colors and faces).
However . . . this means that in truth, I like the RWS because I know it so well. It is "straightforward" for me because I've studied it and used it so much.
Which leaves me wondering, why did I come to know it so well in the first place? Why not a different deck? I think the art in the Thoth is a lot cooler - why didn't I start there, for example? And actually, the very first deck I ever bought (over a decade ago) was the Aquarian - why didn't I study that deck in depth, and make that my starting point with tarot?
For me, it boils down to the fact that I'm a bookish sort of gal. Whatever I'm learning, I'm going to read a book on it first - maybe even two or three books. And the most of the books I ran into used the RWS for their illustrations. And so I turned to the RWS as a starting point (mind you, this was a little over a year ago . . . and I had lost my Aquarian deck somewhere in the preceeding decade).
So it's never been a question of "liking" the RWS for me; it was just there and so I gravitated towards it.
I love this thread! I'm so glad it got bumped up, because I'd never seen it before.
I love the RWS. (Well, alright, the recoloured decks, I suppose. I have the Universal, and I especially love the Radiant.)
I love the readings I get with the RWS. The images on the cards are vague enough that they can be read in many ways. In my readings, I place a heavy emphasis on the surrounding cards for each card, and how each card interrelate. The images on the RWS are vague enough that I'm able to look at the reading as a whole, and allow the card images to "talk" to each other much more easilly than I can with many of the other tarot decks that I've used.
The RWS also always gives me an answer that I don't have to ponder for too long. I can just dive right in.
I started learning how to read tarot cards with the Thoth, but after a couple of months, I bought the Universal Waite, and that was the deck that I read with on and off for a couple of months. I thought that I had learned everything I could from it, and that it was time to move on, but I've returned to the RWS more times than to any other deck. It has the uncanny ability to grow as the reader's ability grows. I've found few other decks that are able to do that.
I doubt I'll ever be done learning from and with the RWS, and I think that is why I love it the most.
The main reason I like the RWS is very simply because it works. Its success is a testament to this fact. I'm sure there are other decks that work too, but this is the deck I started reading with and I'm still reading with it. If it ain't broke, don't fix it I always say. I like other decks too for studying and meditation, but for divination I can always rely on this one.
-fof
The RWS is still one of my favourites mainly because as Fools_Fool says it works.
I've got the Giant RWS to hand and I did a reading with it this morning for the first time in ages and just two cards managed to blow me away. Even just the shuffling of this large deck is enough to get focus and then you lay them out and the images are just so in your face - the colours stand out without being garish, they lose no clarity for being so big. I haven't used the RWS for a while but this morning I realised why I still love this deck. :)
I love the RWS simply because of the wonderful and unique pictures of Pamela Colman Smith.
Chronata
11-04-2006, 13:23
OOOh! This is a cool thread!
Thanks for bumping, Annabelle...I hadn't seen it before either!
I love all the answers...in some ways they sum up what I love about this deck.
But for me...there's more...and I find it almost indefinable.
It's something like Rusty said...this deck's images are both familiar and mysterious...
There's something so wonderful to me about the simplicity of the design when you first look at it...that slowly reveals it's complexity as you study it more...
it opens up layers...like few other decks do.
I think it has to do with the fact that this is really the first tarot deck I had ever really seen. I remember making my own based on the titles I got out of an almanac when I was 10 years old.
and then when I saw the RWS the images were absolutely right to me...
as if they were imprinted on me somehow.
Of course...I thought that's what a tarot deck ought to look like! Sort of medievel...yet not quite...sort of 20th century occult, full of archetypes and angels, and magical writings...and sometimes just a great picture that brings a great emotion.
I am sure I had seen tarot decks before I was 10...but I was not sure what I was seeing. Chances are good that it was the RWS.
When asked to think of a card...the RWS image will always be the first one that comes to mind. I think because they are the essential images of the tarot for me... I first ones I fell in love with.
The first ones I studied.
But I know it also goes far beyond that for me...because my appreciation for Pamela Coleman Smith and her work keeps excellerating and growing...
I hope very soon, as my current cycle( of not picking up the tarot at all) comes to a close...that this will be the deck that I choose to re-inspire me.
I know that each time I revisit it after a long absence, it continues to re-delight me, and show me new things.
I never liked the flat coloring that much. But the deck works, no doubt about that. And then, half a year ago, I got the Radiant Rider. And that got me back again and although it is not my favourite deck I love it very much. It is often picked by querents as well. We all know it works, no matter what :)
Blessings
Im trying to remember my first impression of the RW deck - I have a feeling it was very tepid. I dont remember being wowed or gobsmacked or spun-out by the pictures, actually I think I had no idea what the pictures were saying.
My association with the deck now is quite different - I have a great respect and attatchment for it - which has come at a cost - the price of studying something that didnt come naturally - and in doing so, it taught me better than I think any other deck has. So its more like a friendship.
Thats what makes it so special for me - the deck talks to me - and I respond to it like a friend. I dont have to 'think' with this deck (no comments - I can hear you all sniggering lol) - the illustrations just prompt me and Im away 'reading'. I couldnt say that another exact RWS deck would do the same - I'd have to get to 'know it' - now I sound a little kooky :P
I like the way the deck has worn, and that we have a history together. I like the way its the right size for my hands and that its so familiar.
There are other decks which I feel attatched to and think their 'colors' or designs are better - but my RW has a personality - its like family around here :).
Many Blessings
Elven x
Was my very first one, and its almost 10 years with me now. I have been very unfaithful to it, but it's always forgiven me!
It is a classic, that's why it so popular. Not too drawn toward particular systems or obediences (you could read with it even if you knew nothing about hermetic traditions). I find it pretty neutral, fits into most belief systems and new decks connect right aways.
It's a good beginners one. Then, one can move on to fancier ones, no problem.
Chronata
11-04-2006, 17:08
Thats what makes it so special for me - the deck talks to me - and I respond to it like a friend. I dont have to 'think' with this deck (no comments - I can hear you all sniggering lol) - the illustrations just prompt me and Im away 'reading'. I couldnt say that another exact RWS deck would do the same - I'd have to get to 'know it' - now I sound a little kooky :P
Heh! I'll join your Kooky Club Elven...
because it talks to me too! (Not quite as much as my own does...but then, it has a different personality!)
There's something else about it...
as a beginner deck, I absolutely recommend it.
I know this is from my own experience but...
after you study it enough, know its history, its meanings, its color associations, and all the little fascinating quirks...
you really can read with any other deck in the RWS tradition...any clone, any thing even half heartedly BASED on it...
Because you have a foundation...and you can see where all the artists took the basic of this tradition and expanded to thier own personal taste.
For instance...often when I read with the Hanson Roberts I will go on and on about the image...
sometimes even when it's not there...
Like in the Hanson Robert's Fool...I will say things like..."well, there is that little dog nipping at his heels, which means..."
It actually took me a very long time to realize that the little dog wasn't even pictured in the card! :D
But I knew it was there!
Because it's there in the RWS.
Alpha-Omega
15-04-2006, 14:09
I love the RWS deck cause i been useing it for 5 years and i know alot about it. I have 2 versions of. My fav is the Universale cause the colors are very clear and bright. You can see more details.
Another distinction between RWS and the older Tdm type decks is that, in the former, there are no cards of ambiguous orientation. Each card has an upright and inverted meaning. In older decks, it is not always certain which end is up. This may be one of the main reasons for the RWS's continued popularity.
ArcanoMáximo
15-04-2006, 23:55
i love it too because i feel that is the only one that has been really almost literal at my readings, since i started to use it, with the directions of Rachel Pollack, my experience as rider has changed, sincerely!
RWS was my first deck and I had it for years before I even knew there were any other decks out there. The symbols and images on it are burned into my memory. It's not my favorite deck, but now that I do work with other decks, it tends to act as a 'control' - if I don't get what a card is saying, I can refer back to the RWS image to jog my memory and usually I can start to see how the card I'm working with expresses many of the same ideas in a different way.
I really love discovering the various interpretations artists have expressed in different decks but for me, RWS will always be the standard-setter.
a_shikhs
16-04-2006, 02:57
RWS was my very first deck. Its a very simple deck to read and understand and very traditional too.. I love this deck but dont read with it these days.. :)