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lou
04-01-2004, 04:35
is it possible to see homosexuality in a natal chart? what are indicators of that?

Mystic Zyl
04-01-2004, 07:20
I feel the answer is yes. There are many books written on the subject. I just let a friend borrow them or I would have given you the titles and authors.

Lee
04-01-2004, 07:57
Astrology author Kevin Burk, on his website, writes that in his opinion the idea of astrological indicators for homosexuality is inherently homophobic, because most such theories depend on Uranus as a disruptive influence to "normal" sexuality. Specifically, he says:

"The idea is that Uranus, the planet of disruption, sudden change, and unconventionality in some way disrupts the "normal" heterosexual functions of either the Moon or Venus, and results in a man being gay."

To read the full discussion, go to his website, http://www.astro-horoscopes.com/ click on "Ask Kevin" on the right-hand menu, then do a search for the term "homosexuality."

Personally I feel that an astrological indication for homosexuality would be just as silly as expecting to find an astrological indication of gender.

-- Lee

Astraea
04-01-2004, 08:55
Lee, that is my view, as well. Sexuality is a matter of who we are -- our ontology as human beings -- and as such it is inherent, an aspect of our wholeness.

One comment about Uranus -- I believe that astrologers would do well to associate Uranus with phenomena which are not normative (a value-neutral term reflecting societal standards, which are by nature provisional and fluctuating), rather than encumbering it with labels like "abnormal" (which implies pathology).

Minderwiz
05-01-2004, 02:05
There are a number of approaches to this issue but I think Astraea hit the nail on the head by pointing out that the social conditioning of the Astrologer is probably the main factor influencing the sort of factors identified. Thus Astrologers who feel that homosexuality is 'unnatural' may look for challenging aspects or particular placements, whereas others who see homosexuality as natural may look for different indicators.

One of the big problems with identifying sexuality and indeed issues relating to sexual expression from a natal chart is that there is no modern agreement on where such indicators would lie. Traditionally sex is a fifth House matter and Mars and Venus would be significantly involved in any consideration. Modern psychological Astrologers have placed emphasis on the 8th House and made a lot more of the role of Pluto, and Uranus. This again probably reflects the value judgements of the post-Feudian generation !

lou
05-01-2004, 02:26
well, I speak from a privileged position if we talk about uranus, for I have it exactly squared to my natal venus (venus at 27°capricorn near to my discendent, uranus at 27° libra in the fourth house)!!!
I'm an heterosexual woman but that's not at all easy for me to have 'normative', regular relationships, as far as I can remember (i'm almost thirty) I never felt I wanted to really 'settle-down' with an 'established' love affair... uranus is quite an heavy, rough, intrusive planet if we don't understand its energy, I feel overwhelmed by it sometimes, for it has to express its (his?) personality, as well as I must express mine. After years and years (..not that much anyway!!) of self-investigation I finally came to the simple fact I have to live my way and accept my odd, quite original sometimes personal view on the whole heart-matters issues. so, I hate when astrologers come off with this old trivial commonplace matching uranus with perverted, debauched behaviours, and in their strange logic, something worst if possible, assuming it then will certainly lead to homosexuality (how poor little homophobic small-minded they are!) . so, I agree with you. thank you for replies.

Minderwiz
06-01-2004, 05:17
Thanks for the post lou,

It goes to show that even if Uranus does bring a certain individuality, or even 'oddness' to relationships there are more than one way in which an individual can express their sexuality in their own individual way - jumping to the conclusion that Uranus must imply homosexuality is just as facile as assuming that Uranus in the seventh means divorce (it can do but it can also mean a non-standard approach to marriage, which can work very well and bring happiness to both parties)

Shade
06-01-2004, 13:20
I personally can't think of anything in the chart that would provide clues to sexual orientation... what signs would you look for to tell if a person was straight?

paradoxx
24-01-2004, 05:14
While I don't think that a chart can identify a persons sexual orientation, it may provide insight as to how that individual handles and works with their sexual drive. Since the chart combinations are practically infinite I'm not going to elaborate but I can Imagine the signs of 'virgo, Libra, Scorpio, and possibly Gemini would be in play.

katrananda
27-01-2004, 10:06
I can't think of any astrological indicators of a person's gender or sexual orientation. You would have to believe that homosexuality is a result of personality rather than genetics, for starters. And isn't current theory that homosexuals are born, not made?
I've been told that Pluto retrograde is an indication of autism, and sure, my son does have that in his chart and is autistic, but it would also mean whole wads of people being autistic, so I'm holding judgement on that one.

Minderwiz
27-01-2004, 20:55
Katrananda,

You are quite right to be sceptical.

Pluto is retrograde for 160 days per year and 44% of the population have Pluto retrograde in their charts. Clearly 44% of the population are not autistic, so I think we can dismiss that one - or at least in this form.

Nor is it anything to do with Pluto's sign. Pluto has an irregual orbit but the quickest passage through a sign is 13 years. Clearly again 44% of children born over a 13 year periood are not autistic.

If there is any validity at all in this claim it would have to relate to Pluto's placement in the chart by House or angle and to the aspects Pluto makes and receives. It might be possilbe to identify possible indicators based on this, for example a twelfth House Pluto Retrograde making a hard aspect to Mercury Retrograde. However even that as a claim is highly dubious and we would really need some proper research.

If we accept that the Birth Chart shows potential then not everyone with such an indicator would develop autism but we would expect a significantly higher proportion than for the population in general.

Personally, I have grave doubts as to whether autism would show up in the chart, though it very much depends on the definition used.

katrananda
28-01-2004, 17:24
Minderwiz: Thankyou. I've only delved a little into astrology, but I found it hard to believe that Pluto retrograde denoted autism. This theory was trotted out by the same person who keeps phoning me, citing references that Venus in Aquarius means kinkiness. I am so over that conversation!
I have heard some people say that autism can show up in a chart, looking at difficulties with communication, 'self'ishness etc. Sure enough, some of that is present in my son's chart. But his chart also indicates he has a lot to say.
Well....he does. Just not in any language spoken on this planet.

dadsnook2000
29-01-2004, 06:39
Many years ago I purchased a book titled, "Homosexuality In The Horoscope" written by Karl Guenter Heimsoth, M. D., published by Charakter-Konstellation, Munich, 1928 and later reprinted by the American Federation of Astrologers.

The book builds a set of meanings for signs, planets and rulerships, then goes on to review various medical authorities views on homosexuality. Having built a basis of definition, the book introduces two charts to illustrate the application of these astrological and medical factors and terms.

Then a section with some 30 charts is used to define astrological chart patterns which define the inclination of homosexuality. These seem to be very detailed, numerous, and -- by extension -- possible vague or conflicting. In other words, reviewing this book some 20 years later, there seem to be no hard and fast rules given.

I do note the following items which I can quickly and visually dig out of this extensive and boring text:

1) Uranus in the 5th seems to be one common component but is not a constant factor.

2) The rulers of the 5th and 11th are opposed and located in the 4th-10th house axis -- or they have an inconjunct aspect to each other with one in the 4th or 10th house.

3) Mars and Venus have a hard aspect to each other.

A couple of decades ago I did a chart reading for a gay man who agreed to participate as part of our astrological study group meeting. As we explored the chart -- my memory is hazy about this event some 24 years ago -- there were a lot of conflicts along the parental axis. He noted that his mother was very strong and bullying while his father was very quiet and retiring. I had observed that the parents had provided a poor role model for him. I then picked out a point in time when his romantic involvements had started and that there seemed to be some unease there. He noted that this was true. I remarked, "Too bad there wasn't an older women handy to make your introduction into sexual experiences easier." He laughed as he noted that an Aunt had made an overture but it didn't result in an actual experience.

He summarized his move to homosexuality as resulting from a poor example of his parents, a series of mishaps with exploring sex with girls he knew, an overture by an older woman which did not work out, and a male friend who was very consoling and led him to explore an new form, and safe or successful form, of sexual experience. I no longer has his chart but my sense was that it contained the criteria noted above that I quoted from the book. Hope this contributes to the discussion. Dave.

kwaw
30-01-2004, 09:54
According to Firmicus (circa 330 AD) Saturn in 7 will produce a
homosexual if, in the case of a man, it is in Capricorn or Libra and
in aspect to Venus; in the case of a woman a lesbian if it is in
aspect with Mars. Otherwise it will merely make for an 'effeminate' man or a 'masculine' woman with a fondness for dressing up in the clothes of the opposite sex and for dancing on the stage. If Venus is in Capricorn and in aspect to Saturn the body 'will smell like that of a goat', making sexual relations unpleasant, but this problem is reduced if Jupiter trines either Saturn or Venus. If Mars is square Saturn then there is an addiction to 'all kinds of base vices; they also practice impure intercourse (oral sex) with their wifes'.

I do not necessarily agree with his interpretation, but give it for
its curiosity value and a glimpse of life in 4th century Rome [and to highlight the ridiculousness of the whole concept].

Kwaw

Minderwiz
31-01-2004, 06:05
Dave,

An interesting book, though from your account one that may well be rather vague in terms of any rules. I would be interested in the 1928 medical views on homosexuality because I think the issue of definition here is vital. If we include in the definition reference to unusual, rebellious (against sexual 'norms'), abnormal and self-centred then Uranus might well be seen as a symbol. However if we take homosexuality as a mode of expressing sexuality which is different but not abnormal then perhaps Uranus is not appropriate.

The fifth house rules sex and the eleventh rules friendships (amongst others), I can just about see the idea of tension between sexual desire and friendship being related to homosexuality but such an opposition might simply mean that looking after one's children (also fifth) gets in the way of enjoying a good night out with one's friends. The tenth/fourth axis could possibly reflect the tension between the inner self and the social persona felt by many homosexuals and perhaps a symbol of being 'in the closet' rather than out of it. However without some case histories to confirm this, I for one would be very careful of giving it any validity.

Returning to the issue of definition, in a real sense your work with an openly homosexual subject gets round this issue. Even so it leads to looking for confirmation in the chart and I would be very loathe again to make any judgement on the chart of one person.

dadsnook2000
31-01-2004, 09:28
The book I noted, having been written some 75+ years ago, was a little stiff and detailed in its language. I gave it a quick glance and noted the three criteria given earlier. The Uranus factor didn't seem to me to be a constant. The parental axis, 4th-10th, and its rulers and planets located there were the key factors along with the inconjuct aspects between the rulers -- these seemed to be highly consistent.

I would think that parental upbringing, family roles, and home vs external pressures would be primary influences that could cause a social situation that could contribute to homosexuality.

These factors would probably not reflect any physiological inclination or imperative. I'm not sure that can even be shown to be a chart factor or set of factors. Just identifying the book's view that the 4-10 rulers were inconjunct as one single factor that seemed consistent in most cases or that a harsh mars-venus pattern (square, opposition, semi-square, inconjunct) was often a chart factor -- these could be significant even if not the only factors.

Anyways, the single personal interview or reading that I did that specifically explored homosexuality was cited only to show that there might be some validity to the book's findings. Although I have done a few other chart readings for gay people, those readings did not deal with their lifestyle as such. In any case I no longer have those charts nor do I remember any details about them.

Perhaps others could comment on the 4th-10th house rulers being in an inconjunct, of Uranus being in the fifth (although I think this may not be significant at all), and of Mars-Venus aspects that are problematic. Dave.

Lee
31-01-2004, 11:26
Originally posted by dadsnook2000
I would think that parental upbringing, family roles, and home vs external pressures would be primary influences that could cause a social situation that could contribute to homosexuality. It seems to me that this sort of analysis would not be valid, because the generally accepted scientific theories on the causes of homosexuality no longer revolve around environmental issues. The current thinking is that homosexuality is something which we're born hardwired with. If that's the case, then issues such as parental upbringing etc. really don't have anything to do with it, and thus, the rationale for Heimsoth's theory doesn't really hold water.

From my own experience, I'm gay and haven't experienced such issues as parental upbringing, family roles, home vs. external pressures etc.

From the case study that Dave relates, it seems to me that the person has issues with self-acceptance. He is ashamed of being gay and therefore is looking to outside influences which have "caused" him to be gay. In other words, he sees himself as basically a straight man who has been "warped" into a gay man by external causes, rather than accepting himself as who he is and finding positive ways to express himself as such. I think it would be more fruitful to explore these issues of self-hatred and blame, and see what the chart says about them, rather than to identify astrological factors as indicative of homosexuality, which as far as I can see, as Minderwiz points out, is really impossible to do without making some very unlikely and sometimes insulting assumptions and value judgements about the nature of homosexuality (for example, the use of the word "problematic" in the last sentence of Dave's post).

-- Lee

dadsnook2000
31-01-2004, 12:51
Good points. I have no real means of fully understanding the gay person's feeling and drives -- or their origins. However, it seems to me that any 4th-10th axis rulers and their inconjunct or other aspects could be significant -- if not as a "cause" factor, then as a "dealing with it" factor. After all, the 4th house as basic values and the 10th house as public posture can serve as a way of portraying the conflicts, pressures or issues that may have to be faced in a world where acceptance may be an issue.

As for Mars and Venus, the conjunction is often related to one who "has bedroom eyes." I tend to see the conjunction as signifying "poise" that results from having a balance or sense of how to use these two energies work and can be applied.

As was noted earlier by others, and from my own brief review and thoughts on this subject, I can't see Uranus in the 5th as having any consistent relationship to homosexulaity. It would seem to be a very narrow energy to be able to reflect any type of complex human condition. Most astrological determinations depend upon, like Tarot, a number of intermixed factors. There are only simple answers in beginners books and cheap software.

Thanks again for the input. Dave.

Moongold
31-01-2004, 19:09
Originally posted by Lee
It seems to me that this sort of analysis would not be valid, because the generally accepted scientific theories on the causes of homosexuality no longer revolve around environmental issues. The current thinking is that homosexuality is something which we're born hardwired with.

I didn't know this was the case and think there is still substantial argument for psychosocial and environmental influences as well. Or are you simply referring to male homosexuality?

I think the reality is more that we simply don't know what mix of influences result in homosexuality in men or women , and I think it is a very individual thing. I have been a gay woman all my life by instinct and preference, but there have been times when I have almost entered significant relationships with men for whom I had great affection and respect. At those times, however, I ultimately chose not to. Many people are some sort of continuum, I think, and this makes causal theories and explanations even harder.

I wish science and society would put more energy into acceptance rather than searching for causes. Homosexuality is not a medical or social health problem like mental illness or alcohol/drug dependence, where one can see value in determining causes so as to find treatment or cure.

One last comment, astrology has provided me with a highly plausible explanation for the kind of spiritual experiences I have had. This has been invaluable but I expect nothing more from it. Perhaps I do not know enough yet but it seems that one always sees things in hindsight. Some people may have enough self-awareness and insight to see potential indicators of trouble or opportunity, however.


Moongold

Minderwiz
31-01-2004, 21:04
Moongold,

I agree with your comments wholeheartedly. Personally I find it difficult to classify as 'abnormal' the sexual behaviour of a significant minority of the community. Indeed, as there are a myriad ways in which people can and do express their sexuality, it is exceedingly difficult to suggest that there is a 'normal' sexual behaviour.

Furthermore, for most chart readings, sexuality in this sense is incidental. Issues of long term and short term relationships can be handled through the seventh and fifth house respectively, by ruler, sign and placements. I see no intrinsic distinction between these issues for heterosexuals and homosexuals or for men and women or for people into BDSM or Cross Dressing, or any other behaviour.

Having said that, I do not oppose or resist research into natal charts to see if there are any patterns of significance - Dave's attempts are perfectlly valid as an attempt to see if different lifestyles are reflected in the chart. What is nescessary though is that such research is repeated to see if any identified patterns routinely show up, even 30 or 40 subjects are insufficient and lifestyles change over time in the light of social acceptance.

In practice though there will be significant problems - Lee rightly points out that some people may have difficulty accepting their sexuality or indeed recognising it - should we distinguish between such people and those quite happy with their sexuality in terms of the chart factors we look for? I can well see a case that someone who has difficulties with their ability to express their sexuality (whatever it may be) may have hard aspects that involve Mars or Saturn or the Fifth House rulers, Pluto and Venus may also be involved.


Much of the discussion has assumed a dichotomy between homosexuality and heterosexuality but there is clear evidence that some people may have both types of relationships and be quite happy with life. That suggests that rather than a dichotomy there is a continuum of variation between purely homosexual relationships and purely heterosexual relationships. What sort of chart variance would we expect for bi-sexual relationships?

Finally, Dave was very careful in the way that he chose his subject and involved him in the process and great care in the process itself. That care and sensitivity to the subject as a person is essential, otherwise we can make terrible mistakes in jumping to conclusions based on one or two factors.

Moongold
31-01-2004, 22:45
Thanks for your comments Minderwiz.

I have no problems with Dave or Lee's observations. They are both sensitive and intelligent commentators.

My observations are purely general, with a little life long wishful thinking thrown in :)

Moongold

Lee
01-02-2004, 05:59
Originally posted by Moongold
I didn't know this was the case and think there is still substantial argument for psychosocial and environmental influences as well. Or are you simply referring to male homosexuality?Hi Moongold, no, I'm not making a distinction between lesbians and gays.

I think I should clarify my position a little more. I agree with you that there hasn't been conclusive evidence of the causes of homosexuality. However, I think it's fair to say that environmental causes have failed to be proven despite numerous attempts to do so. There's no conclusive evidence of "hardwiring" either, but since both potential causes are unproven, it seems more useful from a sociological standpoint to simply assume the hardwiring theory and proceed from there, because the environmental scenario carries with it the possibility for much silliness, i.e. parents taking dolls away from little boys and fire trucks away from little girls. This silliness has a tendency to evolve into truly harmful scenarios, such as gay people being committed to mental hospitals, which was the norm not too long ago. I agree, Moongold, that discussion of causes isn't fruitful, and that's why, like you, I would prefer to see more energy given towards self-acceptance and tolerance.

I agree with you, Moongold, and Minderwiz as well, that sexuality is a continuum and no one is 100% one thing or the other. Again, I feel that where we fall on the scale should be simply accepted as hardwired, so that we can put our energies into figuring out how best to live our lives without assigning blame or trying to change our orientation, whatever it may be.

I think I would differ with Minderwiz, though, in that I don't see research into astrological indicators of homosexuality as being particularly valuable. It seems to me that such research would have the same drawbacks as any astrological research, that is, what's being studied is so subjective that no conclusive answers are likely to come from it. Also, I must again state that no matter how carefully and sensitively it's handled, we will still be making unwarranted assumptions, especially when we compare the modern western world with the situation, say, 40 years ago. For example, suppose I were a 17-year-old gay man who happens to have been raised by two lesbians. As gay adoption becomes more common (at least in the U.S., I don't know if it's becoming more common elsewhere), such a scenario is certainly possible. Presumably, in this situation homosexuality wouldn't be seen as unusual or rebellious, there wouldn't be parental pressures, and, if the family lives in a large metropolitan area where there is a significantly-sized gay community, there wouldn't necessarily be very many 10th-house vs. 4th-house conflicts, either.

My point here is that even if we look to the chart for indications of how the sexuality is dealt with rather than its cause, we will still find it difficult to do so without making unwarranted assumptions based on outmoded or prejudicial (even unconsciously prejudicial) biases.

I think overall I agree with what Minderwiz suggests, which is that homosexuality shouldn't be separated out, but rather, since everybody, gay or straight or whatever, deals with the same kinds of issues in their lives, we should see the chart as applying equally to the straight client or the gay client.

-- Lee

Minderwiz
01-02-2004, 07:25
Thanks for the comments Moongold and Lee.

Just one point - I didn't say that I thought research would be valuable - just that I don't oppose it and that I thought Dave's approach was valid.

I'm not at all sure that the research would be valuable, both because of the difficulties of definition, which we all agree about, and because I doubt that it would yield much of use to the average astrologer. Research into problems with sexuality might have some value in the rather specialised fields of medical and (true) psychological astrology.

For those of us who are amateurs, I think we just work on the basis that sexuality is difficult, if not impossible to isolate in a chart and that we use the same approach for all, otherwise, as Lee says there is a real problem of making unwarranted assumptions or leaping to unwarranted conclusions.

Obviously if the subject declares a particular sexual orientation that might alter the reading a little in that we now have more context but that is probably as far as it goes.

Lee
01-02-2004, 22:01
Sorry, Minderwiz, I hadn't meant to suggest that you said it would be valuable. Just clumsy wording on my part. :)

-- Lee

Antonella
22-02-2004, 21:54
an opposition between Venus and the Moon in a woman's birth chart is an indicator of homosexuality - the same doesn't apply if the same opposition is present in a man's chart.

Antonella
22-02-2004, 23:17
...I didn't know Uranus would be an indictor of homosexuality, not even in the 5th house - that would be defined as 'peculiar sexual behaviour' which doesn't preclude homosexuality.

Homosexuality is not a learned behaviour. it's inborn in the individual. When you talk to gay people (or lesbians) they'll all reveal that they always felt that way, they always 'knew' since they were children.....
I feel that an 'induced' homosexuality is simply a physicological problem, not the 'real thing'.

I agree that Pluto is a great indicator of an individual's sexuality in a birth chart...

arachnophobia
30-09-2005, 16:10
well, I speak from a privileged position if we talk about uranus, for I have it exactly squared to my natal venus (venus at 27°capricorn near to my discendent, uranus at 27° libra in the fourth house)!!!
I'm an heterosexual woman but that's not at all easy for me to have 'normative', regular relationships, as far as I can remember (i'm almost thirty) I never felt I wanted to really 'settle-down' with an 'established' love affair... uranus is quite an heavy, rough, intrusive planet if we don't understand its energy, I feel overwhelmed by it sometimes, for it has to express its (his?) personality, as well as I must express mine. After years and years (..not that much anyway!!) of self-investigation I finally came to the simple fact I have to live my way and accept my odd, quite original sometimes personal view on the whole heart-matters issues. so, I hate when astrologers come off with this old trivial commonplace matching uranus with perverted, debauched behaviours, and in their strange logic, something worst if possible, assuming it then will certainly lead to homosexuality (how poor little homophobic small-minded they are!) . so, I agree with you. thank you for replies.


If you think that seems tough, lou, try Mars in Capricorn opposite Uranus in Cancer, in a grand cross!!!! (And I identify as just a hetero and f as you) ;-))

What would astrologers say about my equally hetero son's Uranus in Scorpio in the 1st house, I wonder? lol

rainwolf
30-09-2005, 17:09
In the book Dave mentioned in the beginning, there is a place in the intro where it talks about the degrees (i believe it is 8 deg leo and some other point) and they must fall on the cusp of a house 5-12.

I'm guessing the orb would influence the degree and I find this suprisingly accurate. I dont have the book so I cant say for sure what they are.

isthmus nekoi
30-09-2005, 21:49
Homosexuality is not a learned behaviour. it's inborn in the individual. When you talk to gay people (or lesbians) they'll all reveal that they always felt that way, they always 'knew' since they were children.....
I feel that an 'induced' homosexuality is simply a physicological problem, not the 'real thing'.

Even if inborn, there are a number of things you can't tell from a natal chart, e.g. gender, nationality etc.