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M-Press
09-01-2004, 04:46
hello there!

I thought of posting this is the Tarot section, but I htink it belongs here... lemmeno if I'm wrong...

i'm in the final stages of my deck (visually it's done, but I'm working on understanding what I have done!!!!)
My deck is one that combines astrology as well as the Hebrew letters from the Kabbalah for the Majors.
The reason I made my deck astrological, is because the astro info helps me many times understand the cards better...
For example from seeing that the 2 of Rods is Mars in Aries, i understand better the way in which the person that holds the globe plans to act on it... I get the energy of the card better, it helps me focus on the quality underlined there...

One card i do not get, is Temperance...
there is all this water there, and mixing with grace, effortless mastery, and all that, and then BOOM! Sagittarius!!!! of ALL signs!
Unpredictable, freedom-all over the place, bursting with energy, definitely no tamed moving...
I am a bit puzzled...I'm not saying it doesn't make sense, i would just love to understand it!
Has anyone had the same thoughs when they saw this correlation?

thanks!

isthmus nekoi
09-01-2004, 05:41
Oo, good question..... I had to think about this for a bit.

Another name for Temperance is "Alchemy". I see that as the BOOM. From my view, Temperance doesn't just mix opposites together. It's the pattern of thesis-antithesis-synthesis. A new element is created from the dialectic of opposition. This is freeing in its own way, breaking out of a structure - if you're into Lacan, his master/slave relationship is a good example of this kind of oppositional structure. Temperance I've found is a very dynamic card...

I have also seen Temperance linked to Aquarius. Again, this idea of freedom is there...

miss_apples
09-01-2004, 05:55
hello...M-press have you ever seen the gendron deck by Melanie Gendron? This deck also uses astrological signs and the hebrew letters for the majors...and I looked just now and low and behold...Melanie Gendron used the sign of Saggitarius to corrilate with Temperance. From what I get from her book is that she sees temprace as being one with nature and saggitarians are usually in tune with nature and are completly facsinated by nature and all that nature has to offer.

M-Press
09-01-2004, 09:24
Thanks girls!

Maybe we start to touch something here...
Miss Apples-I looked at the Gendron deck! never seen before, thanks! And luckily one of teh samples was Temperance...i saw the nature thing...
It reminded me of how Achilleas (the Greek super-hero), was raised by thehmaster Centaurus (half man-half horse/sadge), in the ,mount of Pilio, in the nature...
Thanks for making me "bring this out"!!!!

Isthmus-
What you said about "thesis-antithesis-synthesis", is very interesting...
Now, what do you think "Alchemy" is exactly? i always see it as chemistry-of-the-beyond.... Maybe I'm wrong...
Please tell me why you think it's a boom... We might make more of it...
Now about breaking the structure... yea, I can see that.. breaking and making something new...
but where is the fire???? Why is it so modest in this card??? why all the other elements are stronger than the fire?

Is there any other card that the match is so...unique? i get all the rest...
by the way, it's a card I hardly ever get! another reason why i least understand it... I need Sag to help me...
;-)

isthmus nekoi
09-01-2004, 10:08
M-Press, I'm afraid I have a very strong Jungian bias when it comes to alchemy.... so I relate Temperance to the Jungian concept of the "transcendant function". Basically, the ego creates tension (and suffering) when holding two opposing poles of an archetypal energy, and refuses to give into either side. Eventually, the energy drops into the unconscious where a THIRD element arises to resolve the tension. The Hanged Man I think also shows this willingness to release the conscious structure and hang/suffer on the cross. 12=letting go of ego 13=death of ego, transformation, 14=the end product (or BOOM lol)

Also, 1+4=5, so again we have this idea of a new element breaking up a static structure.

As for fire, I see it very strongly in this card. I see it as mixing fire (wine) and water. Temperance I've read once refered to cutting wine w/water. Have you seen Thoth's "Art"? It's very firey.....

(To be honest, I too don't see the match very easily, or at least as easily as other cards. My explanation makes me wonder if I'm stretching this too far, as I'm sure I could find links w/Temperance to any sign.......)

miss_apples
09-01-2004, 12:57
see now when I get the temperance card I immediatly see the need for patience and balancing. So I actually get a Libra feel from the card. But I can see the sag thing to with nature, because nature is balanced and patient. hmm...at least most of the time. Okay Im just jabbering about nothingness now...lol

M-Press
09-01-2004, 17:57
Libra feeling, ah?
Yeap, that's what i get too... also a bit of Virgo, like I have to keep my wings a bit under control, or the need to work very hard before I can achive that effortless mastery...

I looked at the thoth again, Isthmus...
yes, sure fiery...She's making SOME soup there... a very different feeling, of let's say the tarot of Prague...
But that also made me smile, because i wondered whether my Temperance is fiery! So I looked at it again...
(and even managed to figure out how to upload it, so you can see too...)haven't touched my site in ages!)
http://www.sakki-sakki.com/samples/samples.html

Someone that looked at my cards for the first time, a non-tarot person, asked me whether this is supposed to be a calm card...
I said why? "Because it doesn't seem so, she said...Because of the separation of the wings, there is an anxiety in the card...
BUT NOW, after all we said, I see how the Sag quality comes here-shooting in many directions... Put apart and put back together differently, like you say Isthmus, thesis-antithesis-synthesis.
Not that I want to harm the poor angel!

One of the most fascinating things about this process is, that I find doing things right, even if I don't know it!!!! For example, I think the colors do give it a fiery feel...

One more thought: maybe this breaking of structure brings the new creation into something more attuned, and balanced with nature?
Because, for me, temperance is also the perfect way in which I make my coffee... Exact amount of coffee, sugar, milk, temperature, size of cup. I do it effortlessly, but it took time to master, and nobody else can do it the same way...
So, my coffee, is one with nature now, rides smoothly... Like the sun going away to leave room for the moon, and then the moon hides to show the sun. A smooth arrangement in nature...

What do you think????
I'm going away for the weekend, I'll see if I'll make any nature connections!!!!

THANKS SO MUCH for cooking this with me! :)

Moongold
11-01-2004, 08:10
Hi M-Press –

I am a Sagittarian and Temperance means a lot to me.

I really like Isthmus’ comments about alchemy. Alchemy is about psychic transformation (see the two cccups and the liquid going from one to another?) and that certainly requires and generates a special kind of energy. There are so many approaches to representing this energy. One of my favourite decks is the Tarot of the Sephiroth and I absolutely love the Temperance image here. The energy is so evident.

from Pamela Eakins in Tarot of the Spirit
Temperance is the force which integrates and balances all things –the great mediator. Temperance elicits reaction from action, reception from emission, cold from hot and moist from dry. Temperance connects the seeker to the sought. In the divine marriage of the Tarot, the Empress and the Emperor wed. Their qualities blend. It is the quality of Temperance - the activity of blending qualities - that enables them to stay together. Similarly the activity of Temperance unites the Sun and the Moon as well as all other heavenly bodies…………Temperance is the dynamic energy behind every bond and within every nexus.

Temperance is tempering – a really appropriate quality for a Sagittarian too. I have so much energy, M Press, it is good to ground. It can burn you out and be really unproductive unless put to good use or tempered with something else. I get on really well with Scorpios. My most significant relationships have been with Scorpios.

In the long term spiritual or karmic sense, I think one of my life lessons is about integration - the light and the shadow.

Does that help? It isa great question for a Sagittarian.

Moongold

poivre
11-01-2004, 09:05
Temperance "..the arrow of concentration of the fiery life force brings about the manifestatin of the higher ideals, which leads to elevated states of consciousness.
This key teaches you to verify your destiny as a manipulator of the life power, the kundalini. This should be verified by actual practice and tesing until you feel the presence within."

Astrological Correspondence-
"Mercury and Sagittarius. The things of the earth (4) must be understood as manifestations of pure energy(1). Unless we can consciously direct our mental energies (Mercury) toward a deeper understanding of this concept (Sagittarius), we cannot possibly hope to develop along the lines of spiritual consciousness.
We need accumulated experiences to temper ourslves into something more fitting , and 14/5 supplies the necessary testing situations." ...."What lesson in tempering does this experience teach me?" "Strong anger is diluted-tempered-by adding another quality, such as forgiveness. The profound development that can result from the proper handling of the vibration produces great wisdom and understanding.
I'm not familiar with astrology ect. & this with Mercury added I thought you might like the extra info.
The Divine Triangle by Faith Javane and Dusty Bunker

HOLMES
11-01-2004, 11:43
be it known that i am not an astrologer having nothing but two books that were sent to me by a good friend :O).

the saggitarian archer is a centuar, a creature with the rear qarters of a horse, and the torso , head and arms of a human being, this suggest a complicated nature, combing beast with human, instinct with reasons, body with spirit. the sagittarius deeper purpose is to conconcile these opposties, the pradox in the sing nature is difficult to detect , only emerging in the form of sudden change in interest.
from the ultimate astrolgy by nicholas campion.

knowing temperance as i think i understand it.
it is about balance,
so, yes we have complicate natures by balancing we can combined beast with human. the primal instincts of our beasthood with the higher instincts of the reasoning of our humanhood.
for me temperance means peace.
to understand these things through peace is the only way we can balance it out.

i see, and freedom are keywords for sagittarus from the astrolgy for beginners book by william w hewitt , bless his late soul.
for me temperance is seeing the elements combing as they truly do ,
and the freedom to work with those changes.
hence that is why the lady is playing with the water trying to get it perfectly balance .. but with water it is very hard to tell by eye when it is exactly half.
suppose the water is hot , and suppose the water as it flow through the air into the next contianer which represents earth takes on those qualities before mixing with its own water element in the container.

M-Press
12-01-2004, 00:17
Hello all!

THANK YOU SO MUCH for your posts...
I think that in this case of Temeperance, it's another proof that you can not learn tarot in any other way than experiencing it...
I've read so many books, but what just came to the surface for me through this thread, is way more valuable...
It so happens, that Temperance, hardly ever shows up for me! (I wonder why...)

The use of astrological factors combined with the tarot, has helped me a lot in understanding the tarot, but NOW after the above insights, i feel that I've learned something else as well!

Temperance, does not represent Sag, but is showing how a Sag can utilize best it's potential...(thanks Moongold!) So, the projection is mutual...

So when i think of temperance now and link it to nature, it's also about something "working" in a natural way... this is where the effortless mastery comes from. When something eventually seems easy to make, just because its flow is so perfect.
Even the Centaur, a hybrid, the "complicated nature" it's still graceful, smart and fast. It combines two worlds.
and as Holmes wrote "temperance is seeing the elements combing as they truly do , and the freedom to work with those changes."
I must say, now I truly see the Sag in temperance...

and as final note summarizing my new learnings-Ros wrote "Strong anger is diluted-tempered-by adding another quality, such as forgiveness."
This takes me to the mixing that can be done in many levels, physical, mental and spiritual...

I now wonder, whether I should change anything in my Temperance card...
I think i'll leave it as is, simply because all these insights can not just be spelled out... it's all the result of experience-everyone's experience, and in the magical that comes out by studying the tarot...
:)

aqua
12-01-2004, 04:18
Originally posted by isthmus nekoi
Oo, good question..... I had to think about this for a bit.

Temperance I've found is a very dynamic card...

I have also seen Temperance linked to Aquarius. Again, this idea of freedom is there...

Well im an Aquarian Sun..with a Sag rising

I never heard of the Temperance being linked to Aquarius so I am not doubting but think its so interesting to say the least..
Ive always considered myself The Star, quiet and secretive thinking the Aquarian influence, and yet other times I find myself very outgoing and the complete opposite, which ive always attributed to the Sag rising, outgoing, freedom and nature loving.
but then im fairly new to both Tarot and Astrology, keeping both an open mind and always learning.