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Just a question.
The pillars in the
High Priestess
Justice
Hierophant
Are they all the same pillars?
Thanks for any replys?
Originally posted by ros
Just a question.
The pillars in the
High Priestess
Justice
Hierophant
Are they all the same pillars?
Thanks for any replys?
Yes in fact they are. This is part of the continuing thread through out the RWS deck. There are several features that continue through out the deck.
Originally posted by mac22
Yes in fact they are. This is part of the continuing thread through out the RWS deck. There are several features that continue through out the deck.
Then it is quite surprising that Waite should say of the Hierophant;
"He wears the triple crown and is seated between two pillars, but they are not those of the Temple which is guarded by the High Priestess"
If you want to understand Waite, you really should read Waite.
Vincent
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Vincent
Then it is quite surprising that Waite should say of the Hierophant;
"He wears the triple crown and is seated between two pillars, but they are not those of the Temple which is guarded by the High Priestess"
If you want to understand Waite, you really should read Waite.
Vincent [/QUOTE
Waite was both a Mason & a Mage do the pillars in the Hierophant represent J & B [Jachin & Boaz] no. But do they represent the division between the outer & inner wisdom... in my experience .. yes. The pillars represent several different dualities & dichotomies
...And yes I've read the ponderous Waite, as well as most of the major & minor occultists of the 19th & 20th centuries.
TemperanceAngel
28-01-2004, 18:56
Don't forget the Lovers are the pillars as well.....XTAX
Originally posted by TemperanceAngel
Don't forget the Lovers are the pillars as well.....XTAX
Hmm, I see Sun, Raphael, woman, tree of knowledge [with the five human senses] & the serpent, a man and a tree with 12 zodiac signs representing human life, the holy mountain. ...If here are pillars I must be missing them :)... not entirely beyond possibility...:D
TemperanceAngel
28-01-2004, 19:39
The two naked figures represent the pillars, a recurrent theme, YES, the two pillars again as two figures falling out of the Tower.
What is the Tower card representing?
The breakdown of structures (on the surface, I know...)
The Star pouring water from two jugs, there it is again and so on and so forth....
XTAX
HudsonGray
28-01-2004, 19:42
There was a whole thread about Solomon's temple & the two pillars & how the Masons used it in their ritual & had it end up in the Tarot cards Waite did. I think the thread was called Jachin & Boaz or something like that. It'll be in the archives. Solomon's temple has been one of the few long gone ancient buildings we have a lot of info on from recorded history.
(Here it is!)
http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=15291&highlight=Boaz
Originally posted by TemperanceAngel
The two naked figures represent the pillars, a recurrent theme, YES, the two pillars again as two figures falling out of the Tower.
What is the Tower card representing?
The breakdown of structures (on the surface, I know...)
The Star pouring water from two jugs, there it is again and so on and so forth....
XTAX
Interesting thought.....:D
TemperanceAngel
28-01-2004, 19:54
You will find in Racheal Pollacks, 78 Degrees of Wisdom she chats a bit, well quite a lot about it, it is also one of the common images that I point out to my students when we go through the Majors, it helps them see how all the cards connect to each other ;)
XTAX
Originally posted by TemperanceAngel
You will find in Racheal Pollacks, 78 Degrees of Wisdom she chats a bit, well quite a lot about it, it is also one of the common images that I point out to my students when we go through the Majors, it helps them see how all the cards connect to each other ;)
XTAX
That scrying mirror working good, eh? :P
Cuz I was just scoping that out in her book..:) hehe...
Originally posted by mac22
Originally posted by Vincent
Then it is quite surprising that Waite should say of the Hierophant;
"He wears the triple crown and is seated between two pillars, but they are not those of the Temple which is guarded by the High Priestess"
If you want to understand Waite, you really should read Waite.
Vincent [/QUOTE
Waite was both a Mason & a Mage do the pillars in the Hierophant represent J & B [Jachin & Boaz] no. But do they represent the division between the outer & inner wisdom... in my experience .. yes. The pillars represent several different dualities & dichotomies
When you say "... in my experience", what exactly does that mean?
Why do you believe they are the same?
Waite explicitly says that these two sets of pillars are not the same.
He also makes a further distinction between the two;
"He is the ruling power of external religion, as the High Priestess is the prevailing genius of the esoteric, withdrawn power."
These two concepts are almost opposites
The pillars of the Temple in the High Priestess card are representative not only of the pillars of the Temple of Solomon, but also of the pillars on the Tree of Life, which you can see in the Veil behind her.
They are clearly different from the pillars on the Hierophant card, and there is a reason why they are different.
...And yes I've read the ponderous Waite, as well as most of the major & minor occultists of the 19th & 20th centuries. [/B]
He's not always easy to understand, but if you want to understand his deck you have no choice but to study it.
Vincent
In my experience means simply that... in my experience dealing with thousands & thousands of tarot spreads & clients in the last 25+ years.
I never said the pillars were identical in the 2 cards... In fact I went to pains to note that even Waite was aware of both the similarities & the differences.
It's easy to quote Waite or others..It's a bit more difficult to state your own beliefs & WHY you believe them.
I stand by my reply to the iinitial post. And even Waite was far too wise a Mason, Mage, Rosicrusian & occultist to assume that any of the symbols of the Tarot has/had a single interpretation/meaning.
There are other folks on this forum as well as respected authors who agree there is more than a single meaning to the pillars...
TemperanceAngel
29-01-2004, 01:36
If a symbol only had one meaning it wouldn't be a symbol ;)
I, personally, like to read books about such topics, but come to Aeclectic to hear peoples opinions and comments. It's always great to hear a quote fron an author that you have never heard before too :)
Keep your thoughts coming....XTAX
Originally posted by TemperanceAngel
If a symbol only had one meaning it wouldn't be a symbol ;)
I, personally, like to read books about such topics, but come to Aeclectic to hear peoples opinions and comments. It's always great to hear a quote fron an author that you have never heard before too :)
Agreed. I'm finding this forum very useful.
Keep your thoughts coming....XTAX [/B][/QUOTE]
Thanks ...will do....:)
Since Vincent seems to like quotes from Waite's _Pictorial Key to the Tarot_ thought I'd oblige..:) "The true Tarot is symbolism; it speaks no other language and offers no other signs. Given the inward meaning of its emblems, they do become a kind of alphabet which is capable of indefinite combinations and makes true sense in all."
Does this mean that the two people chained with the Devil
symbolize another pillar?
I have read that these are the two people in the Lovers that chained themselves to their wrong choices.
VI Lovers & XVDevil both numbers are 6 XV=15=1+5=6
Indigo Rose
29-01-2004, 16:55
Originally posted by ros
Does this mean that the two people chained with the Devil
symbolize another pillar?
I have read that these are the two people in the Lovers that chained themselves to their wrong choices.
VI Lovers & XVDevil both numbers are 6 XV=15=1+5=6
I am not sure of the connection of the pillars to the Lovers and Devil card, but I DO AGREE with the concept that the Lovers are chained to wrong choices in the Devil card.
Blessings,
Indigo Rose
Originally posted by ros
Does this mean that the two people chained with the Devil
symbolize another pillar?
I have read that these are the two people in the Lovers that chained themselves to their wrong choices.
VI Lovers & XVDevil both numbers are 6 XV=15=1+5=6
And please note the chain can be lifted over the head....
Indigo Rose
29-01-2004, 17:01
YES, so TRUE Mac22. We are able to escape if we choose to see that fact!
:)
Originally posted by mac22
Agreed. I'm finding this forum very useful.
Keep your thoughts coming....XTAX
Thanks ...will do....:)
Since Vincent seems to like quotes from Waite's _Pictorial Key to the Tarot_ thought I'd oblige..:) "The true Tarot is symbolism; it speaks no other language and offers no other signs. Given the inward meaning of its emblems, they do become a kind of alphabet which is capable of indefinite combinations and makes true sense in all." [/B][/QUOTE]
This cannot really be interpreted as "make up anything you want about the deck... all opinions are valid", can it?
The question asked was; are the two sets of pillars the same?
My answer was no, and I then went on to show exactly why I thought so, and this did indeed rest on quotes from Waite, who despite what you might think, is undoubtedly the best authority on the deck.
You gave the answer "yes, they are the same", and rather than using facts to support your opinion, you give the credentialist argument;
"...in my experience dealing with thousands & thousands of tarot spreads & clients in the last 25+ years."
How exactly, is experience relevant?
Some people can have 25 years experience of being incorrect.
I have no problem whatsoever with you taking any symbol from the deck and imagining it to mean whatever you might want it to mean.
If you want to think that these sets of pillars are the same, then that is fine, but that doesn't mean that Waite thought they were, especially when there is evidence to the contrary, in his own words.
Vincent
Rusty Neon
29-01-2004, 23:39
Originally posted by ros
The pillars in the
High Priestess
Justice
Hierophant
Are they all the same pillars?
Hi ros ... I'd say that, even though all three cards show pillars, those pillars are at different places, and so aren't the same pillars. The Priestess would be at her temple. The Hierophant/Pope would be at his temple/cathedral. The goddess in the Justice card would be at her palace/temple. I can't see each of the three being in the same exact same building.
Originally posted by Vincent
[This cannot really be interpreted as "make up anything you want about the deck... all opinions are valid", can it?
Make up? I offered an interpretation, exegesis [one differing from either you or Waite]
The question asked was; are the two sets of pillars the same?
The original post referred to more than 2 cards. Besides I answered this in more than one post...The pillars are similar but not the same.
If you want to think that these sets of pillars are the same, then that is fine, but that doesn't mean that Waite thought they were, especially when there is evidence to the contrary, in his own words.
Vincent
You're welcome to be a strict Waite constructionist if you wish...:) For me the Tarot is a live vibrant book whose symbols are not the exclusive property of any single occultist, mystic, Mason, mage or author.
Originally posted by Rusty Neon
Hi ros ... I'd say that, even though all three cards show pillars, those pillars are at different places, and so aren't the same pillars. The Priestess would be at her temple. The Hierophant/Pope would be at his temple/cathedral. The goddess in the Justice card would be at her palace/temple. I can't see each of the three being in the same exact same building.
Excellent points.
TemperanceAngel
31-01-2004, 18:31
Originally posted by ros
Does this mean that the two people chained with the Devil
symbolize another pillar?
I personally would seem them as another set of pillars, but as we can see from this thread that we all perceive the symbols diffferently....
XTAX
Originally posted by TemperanceAngel
I personally would seem them as another set of pillars, but as we can see from this thread that we all perceive the symbols diffferently....
XTAX
Occult symbols by definition are open to interpretation & exegesis. Are they not?
I think I read somewhere (can't remember where now!) that wherever a figure is seated between two pillars, they are the pillars of the Tree of Life, and the person seated between them is on the Middle Pillar. This certainly makes sense with the High Priestess who is on the path between Kether and Tiphareth, at the top of the Middle Pillar and in between the other two.
Temperence also has been mentioned as having 'pillars': the two different jugs of liquid. This card also lies along the middle pillar, as does the World, the woman in which is holding two rods...
Just some observations...
Kiama
Originally posted by Kiama
I think I read somewhere (can't remember where now!) that wherever a figure is seated between two pillars, they are the pillars of the Tree of Life, and the person seated between them is on the Middle Pillar. This certainly makes sense with the High Priestess who is on the path between Kether and Tiphareth, at the top of the Middle Pillar and in between the other two.
Temperence also has been mentioned as having 'pillars': the two different jugs of liquid. This card also lies along the middle pillar, as does the World, the woman in which is holding two rods...
Just some observations...
Kiama
great points.
TemperanceAngel
03-02-2004, 19:57
Originally posted by Vincent
I have no problem whatsoever with you taking any symbol from the deck and imagining it to mean whatever you might want it to mean.
If you want to think that these sets of pillars are the same, then that is fine, but that doesn't mean that Waite thought they were, especially when there is evidence to the contrary, in his own words.
Vincent you have to remember that Waite was part of a very secret society (refer to Rustys thread in Talking Tarot)
Waite was not telling all in his descriptions of his deck, it is more about what Waite didn't say rather than did...
Remember that if a true symbol can be defined, then it is not a symbol anymore. We need to remember the essence of symbols :)
From Merrium-Webster on-line:
Symbol 1. An authorative summary of faith or doctrine: creed
2. Something that stands for or suggests something else by reason of relationship, association, convention or accidental resemblence; especially a visible sign for something invisible; a lion is a symbol of courage
Sorry to go off topic there folks, but I do think that in a discussion forum it is about discussing ones ideas, interpretations and thoughts. No offence meant, the Pillars will always provoke an interesting discussion, one that people will differ in ideas...:) XTAX
Originally posted by TemperanceAngel
Vincent you have to remember that Waite was part of a very secret society (refer to Rustys thread in Talking Tarot)
Waite was not telling all in his descriptions of his deck, it is more about what Waite didn't say rather than did...
Remember that if a true symbol can be defined, then it is not a symbol anymore. We need to remember the essence of symbols :)
From Merrium-Webster on-line:
Symbol 1. An authorative summary of faith or doctrine: creed
2. Something that stands for or suggests something else by reason of relationship, association, convention or accidental resemblence; especially a visible sign for something invisible; a lion is a symbol of courage
Sorry to go off topic there folks, but I do think that in a discussion forum it is about discussing ones ideas, interpretations and thoughts. No offence meant, the Pillars will always provoke an interesting discussion, one that people will differ in ideas...:) XTAX
This is pretty much what I been saying Waite is NEVER gonna spill the esoteric secrets about the meanings of the symbols of the Tarot in any book available to the public. :D It was against his nature.
TemperanceAngel
03-02-2004, 22:15
Originally posted by mac22
This is pretty much what I been saying Waite is NEVER gonna spill the esoteric secrets about the meanings of the symbols of the Tarot in any book available to the public. :D It was against his nature.
I thought as much, mac22, just thought I would elaborate a bit for you....
Which makes me wonder is there such knowledge available as to Waites true meanings?
XTAX
Originally posted by TemperanceAngel
I thought as much, mac22, just thought I would elaborate a bit for you....
Which makes me wonder is there such knowledge available as to Waites true meanings?
XTAX
Sure there is in the private writings of Yates, Blackwood, Jones, Regardie, Crowley, Mathers, Fortune, Knight, Case, Lotterhand, Underhill, Machen and others.
It takes gleaning but it's doable...:)
TemperanceAngel
03-02-2004, 22:55
Originally posted by mac22
Sure there is in the private writings of Yates, Blackwood, Jones, Regardie, Crowley, Mathers, Fortune, Knight, Case, Lotterhand, Underhill, Machen and others.
It takes gleaning but it's doable...:)
That's a big list!
I am planning on Crowley first, so many books, so little time...
I am thinking a maybe good to get a thread going re: Waites secret meanings or something like that.....could be really interesting :D XTAX
Originally posted by TemperanceAngel
That's a big list!
I am planning on Crowley first, so many books, so little time...
I am thinking a maybe good to get a thread going re: Waites secret meanings or something like that.....could be really interesting :D XTAX
I'm up for it :D Mathers, Yeats, Waite, and Machen were known to hang out at the British Museum at the same time, looking for similar books.