View Full Version : The Sun.....
TemperanceAngel
28-01-2004, 19:41
I know this is an optimistic card, of sorts, but it kinda bugs me...
What's on the other side of the wall and why is the child and horse moving away from it?
And why is the Sun also on the other side of the wall?
Thanks in advance XTAX
The Sun is giving life of renewing or transforming. The Sun is bright & mabee ones animal desires is breaking away from old boundaries with new life & strength. Mabee when we get this card it is telling us that we must be aware of our strength & optimism we get from renewing our life & we are innocent of this
strength.
Ths Sun gives life & growth.
Just an idea.
Originally posted by TemperanceAngel
I know this is an optimistic card, of sorts, but it kinda bugs me...
What's on the other side of the wall and why is the child and horse moving away from it?
And why is the Sun also on the other side of the wall?
Thanks in advance XTAX
The first part of your question is easy to answer;
Part of Waite's description of this card reads;
"...a walled garden-wherein are two children, either naked or lightly clothed, facing a water, and gambolling, or running hand in hand."
In other, older Tarot decks, you can see the children, and it may be that Waite, at one time intended to place the children on the card.
Try reading the description here for your other answers;
http://www.sacred-texts.com/tarot/pkt/pktar19.htm
Vincent
TemperanceAngel
29-01-2004, 17:45
Originally posted by Vincent
The first part of your question is easy to answer;
Part of Waite's description of this card reads;
"...a walled garden-wherein are two children, either naked or lightly clothed, facing a water, and gambolling, or running hand in hand."
In other, older Tarot decks, you can see the children, and it may be that Waite, at one time intended to place the children on the card.
Thanks, Vincent, that was really helpful as was the link, but for some reason that card is really bugging me at the moment, I think I have sunblock....
XTAX
Originally posted by TemperanceAngel
I know this is an optimistic card, of sorts, but it kinda bugs me...
What's on the other side of the wall and why is the child and horse moving away from it?
And why is the Sun also on the other side of the wall?
Thanks in advance XTAX
Well according to Waite in _The pictorial key_ "...It is the destiny of the Supernatural East and the great and holy light which goes before the endless procession of humanity, coming out from the walled garden of the sensitive life and passing on the journey home. The card signifies, therefore, the transit from the manifest light of this world, represented by the glorious sun of earth, to the light of the world to come, which goes before aspiration and is typified by the heart of a child."
For Waite the grey stone wall represented the past life bound by a narrow perception of reality.
As Pollack reminds us "...Once you realize the Garden of Eden is within you, you are free to leave it, taking it with you as you create a new life." The 4 sunflowers represent the 4 Qabalistic worlds & the 4 kingdoms of nature. In the B.O.T.A. deck there is a 5th sunflower bud representing the spiritual kingdom. The flowers behind the wall [representing Life & the Word]. As Case notes when stone is used in the Tarot it refers to the Hebrew word ABN which in turn relates to AB, the Father, and the one self of the Human race. human speech [the wall] is actually the manifestation of this union. The horse represents solar energy. The rays of the sun are alternatively wavy & salient represent vibration & radiation.
Hope this helps clear a few things up...:)
TemperanceAngel
29-01-2004, 18:13
Originally posted by mac22
As Pollack reminds us "...Once you realize the Garden of Eden is within you, you are free to leave it, taking it with you as you create a new life."
Interesting, in my meditation on it this week, I saw what was behind the wall as the 'field of dreams' and the Ten of Cups imagery symbolized this...
Maybe I am not ready to leave the field of dreams.....
For those of you who are new to AT, we have a mediating with tarot thread in the Using Tarot Cards Forum.
Everyone is welcome to join us :)
XTAX
Originally posted by TemperanceAngel
Interesting, in my meditation on it this week, I saw what was behind the wall as the 'field of dreams' and the Ten of Cups imagery symbolized this...
Maybe I am not ready to leave the field of dreams.....
XTAX
Everything in it's own time. The Tarot is after all a journey of self discovery. :)
Originally posted by TemperanceAngel
Thanks, Vincent, that was really helpful as was the link, but for some reason that card is really bugging me at the moment, I think I have sunblock....
XTAX
If you wish to know the divinatory meaning, then Rachel Pollack might be as good as any other writer, but if you wish to know the meaning of the symbols, as Waite intended them, then you will usually have to look further afield.
If the answer cannot be found in Waite himself, the next best bets are Golden Dawn material, Eliphas Levi, and of course, the Bible.
Israel Regardie says of the card;
"The Sun has twelve principal rays which represent the Twelve Signs of the Zodiac. They are alternately waved and salient as symbolising the alternation of the masculine and feminine natures."
(On the subject of the rays, has anyone been able to work out what that strange squiggle alongside one of the rays on the right of the XIX, might be?)
The two children that Waite refers to in his description, are also referred to in the Philosophus Ritual of the Golden Dawn;
"The two children standing respectively on Water and Earth represent the generating influence of both, brought into action by the rays of the Sun. They are the two inferior and passive Elements, as the Sun and Air above them are the superior and active Elements of Fire and Air. Furthermore, these two children resemble the Sign Gemini which unites the Earthy Sign of Taurus with the Watery Sign Cancer, and this Sign was, by the Greeks and Romans, referred to Apollo and the Sun."
There is also a connection to the Fool card, signified by the red feather worn by both the child, and the Fool.
Waite seems to be a little clearer than usual in his description of this card, but if all you want are the divinatory meanings, then the LWB is fine.
Vincent
Indigo Rose
30-01-2004, 03:41
Originally posted by TemperanceAngel
Thanks, Vincent, that was really helpful as was the link, but for some reason that card is really bugging me at the moment, I think I have sunblock....
XTAX
I made an interesting observation, that I had not noticed before. The expression of the Sun in both the Rider Waite and Universal Waite is odd. The left eyebrow is slightly lifted so it appears that the Sun is giving a smug expression. When I spend too much time looking at it, it bugs me. Perhaps that is one of the elements you are responding to TA.
Indigo Rose
30-01-2004, 04:02
Originally posted by Vincent
(On the subject of the rays, has anyone been able to work out what that strange squiggle alongside one of the rays on the right of the XIX, might be?)
Vincent
Here is one person's theory.
http://home.comcast.net/~vilex/SunComparison/main-Sun.html
Originally posted by Vincent
"The Sun has twelve principal rays which represent the Twelve Signs of the Zodiac. They are alternately waved and salient as symbolising the alternation of the masculine and feminine natures."
(On the subject of the rays, has anyone been able to work out what that strange squiggle alongside one of the rays on the right of the XIX, might be?)
The 11 straight rays to the Sun connect to the physical plane, and the 12 wavy lines to the mental plane. (As well as the feminine/masculine principle.)
The Hebrew letter resh meaning 'face' or 'countenance' is assigned to The Sun. Feelings are expressed via the face.
My personal opinion about the wavy black line is that it is the reversed glyph of resh, if you turn the card upside-down.
I have read somewhere that the Hebrew alphabet is hidden somewhere in Rider Waites trump cards.
Gloria.
TemperanceAngel
30-01-2004, 16:23
Originally posted by Vincent
If you wish to know the divinatory meaning, then Rachel Pollack might be as good as any other writer, but if you wish to know the meaning of the symbols, as Waite intended them, then you will usually have to look further afield.
The thing is, it is not the divinatory meaning or symbols, I am just having a block with the card and it is not the image, but more what is on the 'other side of the fence....'
Does that make sense??
I don't know why this thread was moved? It is RWS card that I am talking about, not another deck....
I do feel there is a breakthrough coming...
XTAX
i dont pm ppl to tell them i move a thread they started, i just do it and leave a redirect.
i might have been wrong here in that decision, so i leave it to the moderator here to toss it back to me if they think it should.
firemaiden ???
Originally posted by TemperanceAngel
The thing is, it is not the divinatory meaning or symbols, I am just having a block with the card and it is not the image, but more what is on the 'other side of the fence....'
I never questioned this before, but looking at the card now, one of the feelings i get about the fence is: The child is inside of some kind of protected area. As a playground, the garden of a house, or even a park. He feels sure of himself, safe and secure here cause he knows the place and knows nothing can harm him. But outside is the real world, wild, unknown, where the sun can burn oneself, where happiness has another face, where one is not "the king of mambo" to say it somehow.
The sun comes after the moon. Nature vs mankind, chaos vs order. Each one can be viewed on a different side of the fence. Think about the Empress/Emperor pair and after the Moon/Sun to see what i mean.
Another take can be the limits or limitations one finds when trying to expand his/her happines.
Or even you can take this card as your inner child and the fence being the barriers you use to keep it under control or hidden.
I dont know...
firemaiden
31-01-2004, 06:46
The wall is inherited from the Marseilles card. In fact Rusty Neon opened a thread about the Wall in the History Forum: Le Soleil/The Sun -- The Wall (http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=21949).
What is on the other side of the wall? I know, I know... it's...
"the Other Side..."
TemperanceAngel
31-01-2004, 07:49
Originally posted by firemaiden
What is on the other side of the wall? I know, I know... it's...
"the Other Side..."
I am going to read the thread in full Firemaiden posted....
But for now, my breakthrough has come from the RWS participants....((((thanks))))
It is my shadow card the Sun, so to want to stay in the field of dreams seems resonable, because it's my shadow, and the point is that having the Sun as your shadow card means you need to breakthrough the wall and shine on the other side :) That's part of the lesson.....XTAX
TemperanceAngel
31-01-2004, 07:53
How boring, it seems as though it's all about me...
Cosmic Toaster, more cheese please......:D:D:DXTAX
firemaiden
31-01-2004, 08:14
Here Temperance Angel, is a thread I started about "Wall" -- only it was the Nine of Wands -- Wall? (http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=19340)
The use of explosives was suggested.
TemperanceAngel
31-01-2004, 08:21
Oh no, I can't believe the Nine of Wands has entered (a lifetime card for me...)
Will be reading tomorrow...yeah I know it never comes, but for me it is Sunday (my husband is working...)
*tap tap tap*
removal is happening of the wall...
*Just like to add my silliness that I am feeling of this, and that Judgement is the same, OH, it really is silly now...
My dreams tonight will bring liberation of the wall ( and I don't live in Berlin, by the way....) XTAX
firemaiden
31-01-2004, 08:29
Oh... another thing, TA, the Sun as "Shadow Card" -- the Tarot is teasing you. ;)
TA;
The sun is not one of my favorite cards either. The feeling I get from it is that old saying "Make hay while the sun shines because it isn't always shining." Since the sun is in the background and the child is riding away from it over the wall, I always feel that the child is leaving the safety of that light and moving on to other areas that aren't going to be so enjoyable. But they are going with a smile and with youthful exuberance and optimism that things will continue to be bright and shiny and that they can conqueor anything.
Dexter
TemperanceAngel
31-01-2004, 18:51
Originally posted by Vincent
There is also a connection to the Fool card, signified by the red feather worn by both the child, and the Fool.
So there would have to be a connection to Death as well, seeing as Death wears the red feather (slightly tattered) on their helmet.
The Fool, Death and the Sun...
Beginnings and ends, cycles, transitions....
Just rolling with my thoughts here, is the Sun a breakthrough in this?
Or is the Sun nothing to do with breakthrough?
XTAX
Edited to add my friends' thought about the Sun: Don't get to complacent...
Originally posted by TemperanceAngel
So there would have to be a connection to Death as well, seeing as Death wears the red feather (slightly tattered) on their helmet.
The Fool, Death and the Sun...
Beginnings and ends, cycles, transitions....
Just rolling with my thoughts here, is the Sun a breakthrough in this?
Or is the Sun nothing to do with breakthrough?
XTAX
Edited to add my friends' thought about the Sun: Don't get to complacent...
Re: the Red Feather - Waite may be hinting that the Fool has been transformed through the mystical Death and now appears as an innocent small child.
As for the single child - Waite seems to suggest that, at this late stage in the journey, the mystic must be transformed into a small child. The source may be the New Testament: “Suffer the little children to come unto me”. See Mark 10:15 (and Luke 18:17): “...anyone who does not welcome the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it.”
The red banner represents action, and bravery - the pointed staff is concentration. The child holds the banner in the left hand, showing mastery.
And to add to my earlier exegesis of the sunflowers they also represent the four Jungian "functions": Sensation, Feeling, Thinking, and Intuition.
TemperanceAngel
31-01-2004, 19:27
OK OK, what about this: The Sun follows The Moon, and I know this is not a discussion about the Moon, but it is the inner, feminine and the unconscious.
The Sun being the outer, masculine and conscious.
One feels like a child, young and free, things are moving into the consciousness.
On the other side of the wall we find the Moon, and we need to walk away from it to feel freedom. A renewal of sorts, transcending into Judgement and then the World...phew....
XTAX
HudsonGray
21-11-2004, 22:36
I looked through the archives here but didn't see anyone talking about this particular item regarding the Sun.
There's a site that shows the old 1909 printing of the Sun card next to the more recent 1970's version of the Sun card, reproduced line for line (though the eyebrow on the left side of the older card has a break in it, whereas the newer one has a straight line).
Is there any significance to the superflius line on the top of the Sun? That ray that goes off the top of it, there's no reason for it to be there, but it's faithfully reproduced on the later printings, just as it looks on the original.
Here's a URL to see it at, side by side:
http://www.sacred-texts.com/tarot/tcc/tcc03.htm
Here is one person's theory.
http://home.comcast.net/~vilex/SunComparison/main-Sun.htmlHolly Voley calls it the "Oh S ~ " Line...
The Sun is a card that makes me think of William Blake. In his most famous work, the Songs of Innocence and Experience, Blake explored how the open state of innocence we have as children transforms into the wisdom of experience as we are exposed to the world's sufferings. Yet in Blake's vision, these two states were not the only possibilities... there was also the possibility of returning to a state of innocence, except it would not be the pure innocence of childhood, but a wise innocence. Like this guy (http://www.nodntap.net/tarot/osho_zen/images/innocence.jpg) in the Osho Zen Tarot. Wrinkled and grey with age, but with the twinkling eye and delighted joy of a child to whom the world is an endless fount of wonder.
from "The Voice of the Ancient Bard"
by Wm. Blake
Youth of delight come hither,
And see the opening morn,
Image of truth new-born.
Doubt is fled & clouds of reason.
This state of wise innocence can only be reached through the road of experience. I cannot look at the Sun card in isolation - when I see it, I see it as part of a sequence of four cards, from the Tower to the Sun.
First, there must be the shattering of the illusions and defenses, the ego walls, we have built up around ourselves in the Tower. When the walls come down, there is the utter nudity and openness to the flow of things in the Star. But we are not finished with the process. The Star is only a temporary respite as we experience the initial glow and relief of release from our "mind-forg'd manacles."
The demolishing of the ego armor we used to protect ourselves from unpleasant truths lets all of the monsters and creepy crawlies in the basements of our subconscious emerge. Fear and panic all can rush through us as we get a glimpse into our own madness. We can only finish the work of the Moon if we face and surrender to all of the creatures of our shadow sides, releasing all the ugly and frightening things we have locked away inside ourselves.
Only then can we experience the rising of the Sun and a fresh new state of wise innocence. We have experienced the totality of ourselves and let it go, and now can experience the world as it is in itself, rather than seeing it through the distorting lens of our own defensive and ego needs.
krazymayj
22-11-2004, 21:23
i like temperance angels opinion of comparing the sun to the ten of cups, very true....