View Full Version : The Hierophant (and followup merged)
STARGAZING
03-02-2004, 12:13
I am very new to the Tarot. And new to this site also.
I have a question about the Religion of the artist in the Ryder-Waite deck. Does anyone know the Religion of the deck. The ceptor on this card has the symbol.
Thank you
STARGAZING
04-02-2004, 13:57
Hi Again,
So am I to assume that this is not an important thing to know in studying this deck, and this card in particular ????? I know I have had no luck myself in trying to find out the answer to the Religion of the writer of the deck.
Your help in this would be greatly appreciated.
Stargazing
Hi STARGAZER
Waite was a member of the order of the Golden Dawn.
I don't know what religion he was, I don't think any in the way that society would define religion.
Pamela (Pixie) Colman Smith the artist who drew the cards was also a Golden Dawn member.
She later became a devote Catholic.
The Rider-Waite Smith deck has a vast array of symbolism from many different religions.
Not just one. I hope this helps.
Original Destiny
04-02-2004, 17:04
Religion has no meaning here... its what the cards say to our inner mind that counts... each card has an image... let this image seep into your mind and let it speak to you..
I also think that the religion is of the reader. The reader will identify with their own belief system.
Although I agree with what has been said above, I also think that the religion of the artist 'dictates' in some way the images in the cards. The Robin Wood deck's Hierophant is a perfect example here. (Bluergh.) A Pagan artist who's had bad run-ins with the church has decided to portray the Hierophant card as a very very bad card indeed. :(
As to Arthur Waite, I believe he was a Gnostic Christian, though of course he had the Golden Dawn influences.
Kiama
FourLeafClover
09-02-2004, 15:10
I tend not to see the Heirophant as being a card about religion in the worshipping-a-deity sense, though if that's the issue in question then obviously he can represent that.
To me, he's a card about following ANY traditional action or knowledge or ritual. He can represent going to school (where there's learning in a strictly structured environment), following family traditions, or just doing what's expected of you, or what you think is expected of you.
Depending on where he sits in a reading, he could be telling you to stick to tradition because going your own way at this time will get you nowhere, or he could be warning you that you're letting others do your thinking for you.
I don't like the Rider-Waite Heirophant, by the way. I dont' know what it is about him that bothers me, but... ick. He's just annoying, somehow. I think the Ancient Egyptian Heirophant is much better.
Phoenyx*
09-02-2004, 17:30
Yeah, I've never liked the RW Heirophant either. That was always the card that makes or breaks a deck for me, not Death, or The Devil, or The Tower, always the Heirophant, but its because I've had bad run-ins with Church officials, sooooo.... :P
TemperanceAngel
09-02-2004, 19:49
Originally posted by Vincent
It is impossible to understand Waite, and his deck, without some sort of idea of his religious beliefs.
He was originally a Roman Catholic, but soon became interested in various forms of Christian Mysticism.
Reading the Bible can offer great insight into the symbolism of his deck.
Revelations is particularly interesting.
Gosh I have studied RWS for 15 years and never known anything about his religious beliefs....
Maybe that's where I have going wrong :laugh: just kidding ;)
Thanks for the Waite info, Vincent!
I would say that you don't need to know anything about Waites religious beliefs to understand his (and Pamelas) deck.
We all have our own unique study style with the Tarot, and on AT we get to share these :D XTAX
STARGAZING
10-02-2004, 12:53
thank you all for your insight.
I have spent hours looking for something about the Religion of the deck. I understand and feel the connection with myself and my cards, and they talk with me on a regular basis. But I never had a real connection with the Heirophant, ever. This now helps me to understand so much more about the character on the card.
I have not been invoved with the Tarot for long, and I am looking for a new deck, ( I thought I would start with the deck I found the most common and the easiest to learn with) But so far I have become a much stronger and grounded person.
I love what I have gotten from the Tarot, and I cant wait to see what happens next .....................
The Arthurian Tarot Deck (I hope I have spelled that correctly)
Has anyone seen that Deck or used that deck? I was thinking of purchsing that as my next deck. Anything opinions would be greatly appreciated.
Stargazing *****
ScarabFlight
10-02-2004, 17:03
I'm not sure about the religion, but the sceptre looks vaguely Egyptian to me. I'll have to do more research but it looks like a djed column. I know that some people think that they were some type of ancient battery *shrugs* maybe there is a religious meaning too. :) I'm still new so I have lots to learn!!
TemperanceAngel
10-02-2004, 18:15
STARGAZING,
Just a wee note from personal experience of years of reading I have found the Hierophant to be associated to education, particularly at a tertiary level :)
Nothing to do with religion, as such, but still a system, you may find that this helps you look at the Hierophant in a different light ;)
XTAX
TemperanceAngel
10-02-2004, 18:17
You may want to purchase Racheal Pollacks, Seventy Eight Degrees of Wisdom, it will definatelt help with questions like that :) XTAX
crystal cove
10-02-2004, 19:11
I agree completely with TA in that the Hierophant (I don't know why but I hate that name/label) symbolizes education and knowledge to me. I see him as a "teacher" or one who interprets, rather than a religious figure. Although I guess the point could be made that a priest/pastor or whatever functions in that capacity.
TemperanceAngel
10-02-2004, 19:25
Yes! But also it's been 100 years since the deck was drawn, so I feel that the Hierophant has moved with the times! XTAX
Originally posted by TemperanceAngel
Gosh I have studied RWS for 15 years and never known anything about his religious beliefs....
Maybe that's where I have going wrong :laugh: just kidding ;)
Thanks for the Waite info, Vincent!
I would say that you don't need to know anything about Waites religious beliefs to understand his (and Pamelas) deck.
We all have our own unique study style with the Tarot, and on AT we get to share these :D XTAX
We are probably talking at cross purposes here, so let me clarify a little.
If you want to know what the Tarot means to you, then you don't need to do any study at all. You can just look at the pictures, and make up your own meanings for any of the symbols, in a sort of free-association exercise. And, there are a lot of Tarot instructors that promote this method. They will say, that whatever meaning the symbol conveys to you is the correct meaning.
Of course, this is good for everyone, because no-one can ever be wrong, and if people wish to take that approach, I have no problem with it.
(Which bring us to another point. Some people use the Tarot for fortune-telling, and this "intuitive" method seems to me, to be as good as any other. The Tarot does have other uses though, and it should be noted that there is a difference between the divinatory meaning of a card, and the symbolic meaning of a card.)
Now, if you wish to know what Tarot meant to Waite, and you wish to know why he chose any particular symbol for any particular card, then the above method is worse than useless.
This information cannot be divined by free-association, intuition, spirit guides, or any other method, but hard work, and even then there will be mysteries left unsolved.
For instance, a recurring theme throughout the PKT (and hence, Waite's deck) is mention of what Waite calls "The Secret Tradition", or "The Secret Doctrine".
What exactly is "The Secret Doctrine"?
Other examples might be;
Why is the sun in the Fool card white, rather than yellow as it is in other cards?
What is the name of the angel on The Last Judgment?
These questions become much easier to answer if you have some knowledge of Waite's religious and mystical beliefs.
Of course, you don't need to know the right answers to these questions to use the deck for fortune-telling. You don't even have to ask the questions, to appreciate the deck.
But I don't think you can "understand" the deck (as far as is possible, without having Waite around to confirm or deny), without studying the man and his history.
Finally let me reiterate that I do not propose that there is only one way to learn Tarot, or that no enjoyment or appreciation of the deck is possible without delving deeply into Waite, but the answers to some of the questions that might be posed about his deck, lie in that direction, and will lead to a better understanding.
Vincent
TemperanceAngel
11-02-2004, 01:07
Vincent, what text(s) do you use to establish Waites meanings?
I am very interested to know :)
Originally posted by Vincent
This information cannot be divined by free-association, intuition, spirit guides, or any other method, but hard work, and even then there will be mysteries left unsolved.
So where do you think Waite got it from then?
A lot of information that the Golden Dawn discovered (and Waite himself) was channelled in from the Divine or whatever you would like to call it.
Some other examples are: The Creator, Great Spirit, Almighty Power, God.
Now I am not saying all the information was channelled, but a lot was.
We all work with the same source.
I would never use the Tarot for fortune telling, that word, is one of most unfavorite when it comes to talking, studying or reading Tarot :)
xTAX
cartarum
11-02-2004, 13:39
i think that if you understand the type of lifestyle that the deck promotes, you may find that it mirrors a judao-christian beleif.
but we must realize that most of the worlds religions share motifs
in the form of jungs archetypes. that is exactly what the cards utilize to bring their message across.
by examinging this card ,
we have ended up being influence by its archtype.
the teacher exists to teach system, to promote wisdom in the systme but it is the reversed heirophant who is too rigid that causes us to rebell.
the hieorphant will alwasy have universal, personal, religous, and who knows what else kind of meaning to the individual.
i don't know what waite religion is for me it has no bearing,
i am more concerned with the heirophant on a universal, and for myself a personal level.
if one uses religion for a bearing of a deck, or any sort of discrimation such as i don't use that deck for it is too religous, or too native american, or too evil (which is what i thought for the longest time of the toth after i heard of his rituals but now i am growing to learn to like it ).
we will lose out on what could be a good experience, a good study, a good interpation of the card.
religion may agian serve to divide us , like it has done so many times in religous wars, religous meetings, religous groups,
why is the heirophant not the end all ? for there is more to life then religoun
and perhaps that is the greatest message of the heiorphant. ?
Rusty Neon
11-02-2004, 18:57
A suggestion ... For future reference, perhaps this thread should be retitled as "The Religion underlying the RWS deck" or something along such lines.
TemperanceAngel
11-02-2004, 19:01
It's great to have new people in this Forum, by the way, it has really made for interesting chat :)
Originally posted by Vincent
Why don't you like using the word fortune-telling?
It's a real personal thing, which I don't think know if I could put into words....someone asks me if I am a Fortune Teller, and my skin prickles. I suppose I feel like it demeans the Tarot and my work with it, I do not tell peoples fortunes, well not in my eyes anyway.
I was referring to Pamela Colman Smith being a psychic artist who channelled symbols in via her art, which would mean the Minors and Courts of the RWS deck.
Vincent I would love you to recommend some books, maybe I will pm you. If we ever have a scholarly debate you would win hands down....
And as for that Marseilles deck, it is great for historic purposes, but the imagery I find just too primitive to work with, but pretty to look at ;) xTAx
STARGAZING
12-02-2004, 10:50
Well, I never thought my little question would bring such interesting reading. Everyones input has taught me so much. And yes I am very new to AT, and the tarot, and I am finding I am spending alot of time reading and rereading so many things that have been posted.
Vincent, I would also be very interested in some books or material that you could recommend.
Frank Hall
30-06-2004, 21:01
Looking into this image of the Hierophant, I wonder if he is my inner Teacher,in touch with the Divine beyond outer teachers,or if he is the truly inspired outer Teacher calling me to my Higher Self,or if he is fixed and lifeless religion in the obedience way of it,no questions asked or allowed?His right hand,raised in benediction;his three-tiered golden crown; and his left hand,holding up the triangular golden staff point to the Divine beyond.Between the two pillars,he bridges them with his heart warmth--radiant red.His face bears a serious frown,though.Why?
Penelope
27-07-2004, 17:29
Originally posted by STARGAZING
The ceptor on this card has the symbol.
The name for the staff is a CROSIER (pronounced "crow's ear")
Originally posted by Vincent
The thing the Hierophant is holding, is a sceptre. Waite describes it as such. He says;"...In his left hand he holds a sceptre terminating in the triple cross..." He also says of the Triple Cross "...it is the cross of the patriarchal See, both Greek and Latin--of Venice, of Jerusalem, for example--and it is the form of signing used to this day by the priests and laity of the Orthodox Rite..."
Vincent
It is SAMECH the 15th letter = XV THE DEVIL
I'm not convinced that it isn't a crosier. Please see the following article on it.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04515c.htm
Originally posted by Shatril
I'm not convinced that it isn't a crosier. Please see the following article on it.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04515c.htm
What part of the article?
"...says that the end is sharp and pointed wherewith to prick and goad the slothful, the middle is straight to signify righteous rule, while the head is bent or crooked in order to draw in and attract souls to the ways of God..."
"...The origin of the pastoral staff [crosier] is at times associated with the shepherd's crook..."
Waite plainly calls it a 'sceptre', and there is a major symbolic difference between a sceptre and crosier.
Vincent