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crystal cove
13-02-2004, 12:18
I've been studying the Coupes court cards tonight in my Hadar deck and I'm curious about the intriguing "crown" that the Roy wears. It seems to be a combination of a hat and a crown. In addition, there is a yellow light illuminating the crown part.

Would anyone like to share their ideas and/or knowledge?

Diana
14-02-2004, 18:02
twenty-one: I think the best person to answer this would be the wonderful Kris Hadar himself. He is very happy to communicate with Aeclecticians, but is unable to join our forums due to lack of time.

I will therefore e-mail him shortly and will post his reply as soon as I get it.

jmd
14-02-2004, 18:30
I also eagerly await Kris Hadar's reply.

What I find fascinating with this card - though not as obviously in the Hadar nor other post Conver decks - is that this 'head-gear' appears to be a quite distinct characteristic which may have been somewhat lost as to its significance with time.

On the Parisian Vieville deck, for example, the 'hat' appears more clearly as what seems like a Mongolian or Chinese royal 'helmet', with the 'flaps' turned somewhat up a little.

Even the robe he wears, for that matter, also seem to likewise reflect that far-eastern dress.

I've attached the image for the sake of those who do not have access to it.

With other Marseille decks, this 'dual' crown-hat is also reflected in this card, and of course, due to its similarity to the Bateleur's/Magician's hat, may be exegeted with that iconographic similarity in mind.

crystal cove
14-02-2004, 22:38
Just for comparison's sake, I took a look at the other Roy cards in the same deck and noticed that they all have hats that resemble the Bataleur. In addition, the Roy de Bastons and the Roy d'Espees both have the crown in the middle illuminated in yellow, like the Roy de Coupes. However, the Roy de Deniers has no crown, no illumination, and his hat is shaped strangely on one side. The only way I can think of to decribe it is something similar to a fish's or some other sea life's fin. ( I know, strange imagination) ;)

Oh, also, as I was going through the deck to find the other Roys, I noticed that the Papesse's crown is highlighted in yellow, too.

Thanks, Diana. I'm looking forward to his reply.

Rusty Neon
15-02-2004, 11:22
Tarot author Alain Bocher suggests that the King of Cups' hat appears to be the hat of a marquis.

Namadev
17-02-2004, 22:24
Hi,

I suppose that you most of you know about Hadar's web site.
Maybe some of you do not.
So :
http://www.krishadar.com/A/Index1A.asp


Alain

Diana
08-03-2004, 17:36
Due to a delay on my side, the response is a little late. Kris Hadar, as usual, replied immediately to my request.

In the next post is the translation of the text I received and Kaz has again put the pictures on her web-site. Thanks very much Kaz.

The original French text is in the post after the English version.

Diana
08-03-2004, 17:36
This is a simple question which reaches into the very foundations of Tarot. It is very intuititive, similar to the Papess… It is true that the Roy de Coupes’ hat looks like that of a nun… and one’s attention is drawn to it. But this an excellent question. So, instead of just concentrating on the Roy’s hat, let’s examine the hats of all four Roys. First observe the crowns. You will notice that the Roy de Denier doesn’t have a crown, but the wings of Le Diable [Devil]. The Roy d’Epée has a crown that seems to grow from his hat… the Roy de Bastons shows us the first layer of his crown… and the Roy de Coupes has a crown that is entirely visible… This implies that the Roys form a common structure and that each one reveals a stage.

The Roy de Deniers represents the riches that dwell within us. The Deniers refer to the earth.
The Roy d’Epées represents the combat of the spirit. It is not sufficient to have great inner riches, one needs to be conscious of these… The sword cleaves the air and air is the power of spirit!
Le Roy de Bastons represents the effort and the work necessary to extract what is in our inner depths : our soul. The baton burns… because it refers to fire, the energy necessary for any noble enterprise.
Le Roy de Coupes represents our heart, nobility, that which makes a being great. Without a heart, without love, without love for life, one cannot reach one’s soul. It is the cup of the Holy Grail that symbolises divine essence, our soul, the waters of the deep that link us to our divine origin.

This is why the Roy de Denier is sitting on a circular throne that symbolises a cup, the cup that the Roy de Coupes has opened in order to offer it to his Dame de Coupes. It indicates that it is in our deepest being, that are hidden our riches, our soul, that we need to give birth to!
That is why the Roy d’Epées is sitting on a tomb… to indicate that this soul will not be born, if we do not accept to die in order to be reborn…
That is why the Roy de Bastons is an architect who traces with his baton the rules that preside over any noble enterprise…
… and that is why the Roy de Coupes has opened his cup, because it is by opening his heart that his soul can take flight… This is possible only from the moment that one is in the domain of love… for love is a gift of the soul, from the instant one can offer it to the most beautiful of Ladies, the one who has precisely allowed us to discover that we have a soul!!!

Don’t forget that in my last intervention [on Aeclectic], I pointed out… that the Roy de Coupes was in the antechamber of his Dame, the Royne de Coupes, who is sitting on her four-poster bed. [ Hadar’s Véritable Tarot de Marselle – What is it true to? (http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?threadid=21791) ]

One of the principles of the troubadors in the Middle Ages was: one cannot be courteous, if one is not in the domain of love. It is love that makes us grand, noble, generous, chivalrous… It is through love for the noble cause that is the D’ÂME, that one can attain one’s divine dimension.

[Note from the translator: It is impossible to translate the word-play that is D’ÂME. “Dame” means “Lady”. “Âme” means “Soul”. So Kris Hadar is playing on these two words]

All the Roys have light coming from their hat… except the Roy de Denier. Obviously, to have a soul is one thing, but to be conscious of it is another. The awakening of the soul is the task of the Roy d’Epées, the Roy de Bastons and the Roy de Coupes… even if it is the Roy de Deniesr who symbolises the raw riches!

The light of the three Roys is closely linked to the Papess who also has a light coming from her crown… This indicates once again.. that it is the woman who crushes the serpent under her foot…. that it is the woman who gives birth to life… that it is the woman who is the mystery… that it is the woman who owns the key to all that is sacred! The proof? She has the power to read the BOOK where all is inscribed!

As you can see, Tarot is like a treasure hunt… each element of a card links to another in order to express the “game of knowledge”. It is obvious though that it is essential to know the rules!

I am attaching herewith images of my own deck, and also images from the 1700 Dodal deck… so that the [Aeclectic] members can see for themselves that I am not inventing anything and that, indeed, all this makes sense!
http://home.hccnet.nl/k.van.rijn/tarot/DodalHadar.html

Diana
08-03-2004, 17:55
Here is the original French text of the above post:

Cette question est une question anodine qui touche au fondement même du Tarot. Elle est très intuitive, à l'image de la Papesse... Il est vrai que le chapeau du Roy de Coupes ressemble à celui d'une none... et que cela attire l'oeil. Mais cette question est excellente. Alors, au lieu de rester accrocher au chapeau du Roy, regardons les chapeaux des 4 roys. Observons maintenant les couronnes. Nous constatons que le Roy de denier n'a pas de couronne, mais les ailes du Diable. Le Roi d'épée à une couronne qui semble naître dans son chapeau... le Roy de Bastons nous permet de voir la première rangée de sa couronne... alors que le Roy de Coupes a une couronne qui est entièrement visible... C'est dire que les Roys forment une structure commune et que chacun en expose une étape.

Le Roy de Deniers, c'est la richesse qui réside au fond de nous. Les deniers font appels à la terre.
Le Roy d'Epees, c'est le combat de l'esprit. Il nr suffit pas d'avoir une grande richesse qui nous habite, il faut en prendre conscience... L'épée fend l'air et l'air est la puissance de l'esprit !
Le Roy de Bastons est l'effort et le travail nécessaire pour extraire ce qui se trouve au plus profond de nous : notre âme. Le bâton brûle... car il fait appel au feu, l'énergie nécessaire à tout noble entreprise.
Le Roy de Coupes est le coeur, la noblesse, ce qui fait la grandeur d'un être. Sans coeur, sans amour, sans joie de vivre, on ne peut attendre son âme. C'est la coupe du Saint-Graal qui symbolise l'essence divine, notre âme, l'eau des profondeurs qui nous rattache à notre origine divine.

C'est pour cela que le Roy de Denier est assis sur un trône circulaire qui symbolise une coupe, la coupe dont le Roy de Coupes a ouvert pour l'offrir à sa Dame de Coupes. Il indique qu'au plus profond de soi se cache notre richesse, notre âme, qu'il va falloir faire naître !
C'est pour cela que le Roy d'Epee est assis sur sur tombe... pour indiquer que cette âme ne naîtra pas, si nous n'acceptons pas de mourir pour renaître...
C'est pour cela que le Roy de Bastons est un architecte qui trace de son bâton les règles qui président à toute noble entreprise...
... et c'est pour cela que le Roy de Coupes à ouvert sa coupe, car c'est en ouvrant son coeur que son âme peut prendre son envole... Cela est possible qu'au moment où on est en amour... car l'amour est un don de l'âme, dès l'instant quand on peut l'offrir à la plus belle des Dames, celle qui nous a permis justement de découvrir qu'on avait une âme !!!!

N'oubliez pas que lors de ma dernière intervention, je vous avais indiqué... que le Roy de Coupes était dans dans l'antichambre de sa Dame, la Royne de Coupe qui est assis sur un lit en baldaquin... Hadar’s Véritable Tarot de Marselle – What is it true to? (http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?threadid=21791)

Un principe des troubadours du Moyen-âge dit : qu'on ne peut pas être coutois, si on n'est pas en amour. C'est l'amour qui nous rend grand, noble, généreux, chevaleresque... C'est par l'amour pour une noble cause qu'est la D'ÂME, qu'on peut attendre sa dimension divine...

Tous les Roys ont une lumière qui sort du chapeau... sauf le Roy de Denier. Évidemment, avoir une âme est une chose, en prendre conscience en est une autre. L'éveil de l'âme se fait par les Roys d'Epees, de Bastons et de Coupes... même si le Roy de Denier en symbolise la richesse brute !

La lumière des 3 Roys est intimenent rattachée à la Papesse qui avait justement une lumière qui sortait de sa couronne... Pour nous indiquer encore... que c'est la femme qui écrase le serpent du pied... que c'est la femme qui fait naître la vie... que c'est la femme qui est le mystère... que c'est la femme qui possède la clef de tout le sacré ! La preuve ? Elle a le pouvoir de lire le LIVRE où tout est inscrit !

Comme vous le voyez, le Tarot est un jeu de piste... chaque élément d'une carte nous rattache à une autre pour exprimer le « jeu de la connaissance ». Évidemment, encore faut-il en connaître les règles !

Je joins à cet email, les cartes de mon jeu, mais aussi les cartes du Dodal de 1700... pour permettre à tes membres de constater... que je n'invente pas... et qu'effectivement, cela a du sens !

http://home.hccnet.nl/k.van.rijn/tarot/DodalHadar.html

jmd
08-03-2004, 18:15
It is certainly wonderful to read the study and musings from another - so a thankyou to both yourself and Kris Hadar.

As this thread is about the King of Cups, I shall also make some comments in the threads regarding the other Kings, but here limit myself to just this King (though of course the specific light source he mentions transcends the single King).

If I note the differences and similarities between the Dodal and the Hadar with regards, specifically, to this card, what is noteworthy is also that he seems of the oldest amongst the four Kings (with the barberousse King of Coins).

I realise that Hadar did not solely seek to replicate any individual deck, but rather create. What is here interesting is that whereas the Dodal seems to present his Cup as open and blood-filled, and the 'cap' seems to resemble an ambiguous representation of half of the Tablets which could easily refer to the Old Testament, Hadar chose to render the Cup 'cap' or 'flap' more correctly, thereby also removing this quite meaninful iconographic ambiguity.

Jewel-ry
11-03-2004, 05:52
I have only just got round to reading this. Amazing!

Diana, please say a really big thank-you to Kris for this. I have all of these cards around me and understand them so much better for having read and understood this (sometimes I have to be spoon fed literally!).

I wonder if this 'staging' also applies to the other court cards? What do you think? I shall look at them as soon as I get a chance.

J :)

crystal cove
11-03-2004, 23:24
A big thank-you to Diana and Kris Hadar!

The reply answered all my musings in one of the later posts and I'm quite satisfied. I feel privileged to be able to study from people with so much knowledge.

Diana
12-03-2004, 02:41
I am certain that Kris Hadar will be happy to respond to any question we ask him about his deck. And I will be equally happy to translate the answers and post them on Aeclectic. :)