View Full Version : reversed symbols for RWS or Universal Waite
Just a question.
Would there be a card that when it is reversed shows a picture or a symbol other than the upright way?
I always look at the card the upright way & never thought of reversing the cards & looking for hidden symbols.
Thanks for any replys.
ScarabFlight
18-02-2004, 23:38
Ahh, very interesting question! I will look forward to checking and seeing what others have to say.
The only thing that I've noticed/read about is the shield on the chariot. It is supposedly (sp?) a mason's apron upside down. What this could be seen to represent, I'm not sure, purity maybe? Keeping yourself clean? I'm still in the information collecting stage. lol Not so far into the interpretation stage :)
OakDragon
04-04-2004, 01:52
As soon as I found this thread, I just had to go through my RRWS deck and look at all the cards upside down! LOL
The Devil has the upside down five pointed star above his head.
The cup on the ace of cups seems to have an upside down M on it... I've never figured out what that's supposed to represent.
The High Priestess' scroll says "TORA" on it upside down, though I suppose that could be interpreted simply as how it would look naturally from the viewer's point of view.
Interesting to note also that, visually, the wands in the eight of wands seem to produce the same effect whether the card is upside down or not, almost as if the card was visually intended to have a similar meaning upright or reversed.
Originally posted by OakDragon
The cup on the ace of cups seems to have an upside down M on it... I've never figured out what that's supposed to represent.
The only mention I've ever found about that upside down "M" is in "Pocket Guide to Tarot by Alan Oken"
He says "The letter on the cup is an upside-down "M" indicating that "matter" is ready to recieve the blessing from heaven.
The Hanged Man reversed looks a wee bit like an electrified Michael Flatley (isn't that his name?) ...River-dancing.
Originally posted by ros
Is there a card(s) that when it is reversed shows a picture or a symbol other than the upright way? The Hanged Man is different in these decks than in the
original Marseille. He left leg is crossed behind, which then
comes out matching The World dancer. ( 12 ~ 21 )
But held to a mirror, he will be seen as IIX Le Pendu of old,
the very glyph of Saturn... but that's a whole nother story.
Originally posted by lark
The only mention I've ever found about that upside down "M" is in "Pocket Guide to Tarot by Alan Oken"
He says "The letter on the cup is an upside-down "M" indicating that "matter" is ready to recieve the blessing from heaven.
Does Alan Oken say why he believes that to be so?
It doesn't sound very likely to me. Why should it be an an upside down 'M' at all, and even if it was, why should the 'M' stand for matter?
Perhaps it is not any sort of letter at all, upside down or otherwise... you may want to read what the Golden Dawn had to say about it, a far more reliable source than Alan Oken.
Vincent
Hello Vincent..
Why don't you tell me what the Golden Dawn has to say I have no book on the subject.
I did not say I believed what Alan Oken said.
I just said in all the books I have read, and to date I have read over 140 of them, his book was the only one that actually mentioned the letter on the cup.
So if you have other info please feel free to share it with us.
I have read Mr. Oken's book as well, and to me it seemed he
had found his own answer to this enigmatic addition to the
Ace of Cups, though the combination he suggests is extreme.
If there ever really was anything definitively namable as
The Golden Dawn (other than some Victorian magicians),
I'd be interested in hearing their official verdict as well.
Originally posted by lark
Hello Vincent..
Why don't you tell me what the Golden Dawn has to say I have no book on the subject.
I did not say I believed what Alan Oken said.
I just said in all the books I have read, and to date I have read over 140 of them, his book was the only one that actually mentioned the letter on the cup.
So if you have other info please feel free to share it with us.
Quality of Tarot books, rather than quantity, is the key.
There aren't all that many GD sources of Tarot, and I believe they are all online. If you are looking to find out what any particular symbol in the RWS means, then your best bet is to start with the PKT, then 'Book T', and then anything written by a Golden Dawn member.
Vincent
Originally posted by Fulgour
If there ever really was anything definitively namable as
The Golden Dawn (other than some Victorian magicians),
I'd be interested in hearing their official verdict as well.
Why don't you just put a sticker over it?
Vincent
Originally posted by Vincent
Why don't you just put a sticker over it? Actually, I have a wooden capital letter M (about 6" x 6")
that I keep topsy-turvy right next to a large print-out I made of
The Ace of Cups from The Pamela Colman Smith Tarot of 1909
(printed by Rider & Co. London).
I think Waite wanted her to paint a big W for his EGO and she
skunked him with an M. Anyone looking at any of Pam's letters
can easily tell an M from a W. She had a unique style, and
a good eye. The M as W is a lot like the Marseille Ace's design.
Waite never even mentions this, by the way. What a guy.
Originally posted by Vincent
Quality of Tarot books, rather than quantity, is the key.
There aren't all that many GD sources of Tarot, and I believe they are all online. If you are looking to find out what any particular symbol in the RWS means, then your best bet is to start with the PKT, then 'Book T', and then anything written by a Golden Dawn member.
Vincent
Sometimes you can not get to quality untill you have gone through quantity.
There are only a handful of book that I view as having any value.
Thank you for the references I will check them out.
Although I am not a big Golden Dawn fan.
Another place I have seen the upside down M is on the alter cloths and robes of the priests in the catholic mass.
Checking out catholic symbolizm might be interesting.
What does that M mean to them?
Originally posted by Fulgour
I think Waite wanted her to paint a big W for his EGO and she
skunked him with an M.
Do you have any evidence for why anyone should believe this to be so?
Why do you think this is more likely than Alan Oken's explanation that the 'M' stands for 'matter'?
Originally posted by Fulgour
Anyone looking at any of Pam's letters
can easily tell an M from a W. She had a unique style, and
a good eye. The M as W is a lot like the Marseille Ace's design.
Waite never even mentions this, by the way. What a guy.
Yes, it's hard to distinguish what is more infuriating; what Waite does say, or what he doesn't.
Vincent
Vincent: I get the impression you have read many of these works you recommend as reading material. Am I wrong in supposing that you have read something in these materials about this letter that looks like an inverted M? If so, perhaps you could share what you have read about it?
Originally posted by ros
I always look at the card the upright way & never thought of reversing the cards & looking for hidden symbols. In terms of Polar Opposites ~ have you ever considered
that the face seen on 18 The Moon, could be (imaginatively)
our friend from 9 The Hermit.
The way the face on The Moon looks over the landscape below,
much like The Hermit looking down from his mountaintop...
and there's the classic version from antiquity of the stock
character portrayal of the moon, an old man with a lantern,
a stick or branch ~ and a dog.
"Light, seeking light, doth light of light beguile."
the eye, seeking enlightenment, deprives itself of the power to see
ie; excessive study frustrates the search for truth by making
the student blind ~ so get out and enjoy the sunny days
Shakespeare ~ Love's Labours Lost
http://www.shakespeare-online.com/plays/LLL_1_1.html
Penelope
13-07-2004, 20:24
Originally posted by Fulgour
In terms of Polar Opposites ~ have you ever considered
that the face seen on 18 The Moon, could be (imaginatively)
our friend from 9 The Hermit. Maybe we're seeing the dawning of The Age of Aquarius!
northsea
13-11-2007, 17:14
Robert Place says the RWS Ace of Cups 'M' stands for Mary, receiving the dove.
MikeTheAltarboy
14-11-2007, 02:27
Robert Place says the RWS Ace of Cups 'M' stands for Mary, receiving the dove.
That seems more likely.
Mary also belongs to Binah (As Queen of Heaven), and thus is associated with Briah, the world which the suit of cups represents.
It might also stand for "Maris", the sea, also to do with Binah.