@Minderwiz- essential and accidental dignities in natal

Ira

Hi.

Anyone can jump in with their input!

How do essential and accidental dignities (combust, mutual receptions) work in natal charts? What can be observed about a person or life patterns?

Thanks

Minderwiz

They work much the same way as they do in horary or other branches of Astrology. That is they give you an indication of how well or otherwise you handle particular areas of life by modifying the planet signifying of ruling that area.

Firstly, planets under the beams or combust (a medieval distinction, as before then the operative condition was that the planet was between helical setting and helical rising), indicates something of a difficulty in 'seeing' issues related to that area. The extent to which that happens will be modified by other conditions, for example if the planet is in one of its essential dignities, the Hellenistic authors would regard that as of sufficient protection to offset the condition entirely.

This condition is part of a cycle with the Sun and that cycle also includes retrograde motion and the conditions of being fast or being slow or even stationary. interpretations really flow from the nature of the condition.

However all of these conditions are to be treated as being secondary to the placement and function of the planet in your chart, which determines it's basic interpretation. Thus if Venus in a night chart rules your career then it's going to do reasonably well unless Venus is badly placed in your chart, in an idle house or afflicted by a malefic. If we assume it's not badly placed and there's no obvious affliction, then the basic interpretation holds. How far your career will go well, will be influenced by those accidental dignities but not reversed by them.

Mutual Reception and indeed Reception itself are more important. One of the key concepts in traditional Astrology is that a planet that is not in its own sign is dependent on its ruler to deliver its promise. This breaks down into two key issues. Firstly the extent to which planet and ruler 'get on'and secondly the extent to which the ruler is also well or badly placed.

Thus if Venus is in Sagittarius in your tenth house of career and is ruled by Jupiter in the Ascendant and in Pisces this promises great success. Venus in your tenth house of career and in Aquarius and ruled by Saturn in Aries in the twelfth and the promise is greatly reduced. Saturn is in Fall and also badly placed. The condition of Saturn will drag down Venus. Your career now will be moderately successful but nothing like as good as in the previous case.

Ira

Minderwiz said:
They work much the same way as they do in horary or other branches of Astrology. That is they give you an indication of how well or otherwise you handle particular areas of life by modifying the planet signifying of ruling that area.

Firstly, planets under the beams or combust (a medieval distinction, as before then the operative condition was that the planet was between helical setting and helical rising), indicates something of a difficulty in 'seeing' issues related to that area. The extent to which that happens will be modified by other conditions, for example if the planet is in one of its essential dignities, the Hellenistic authors would regard that as of sufficient protection to offset the condition entirely.

This condition is part of a cycle with the Sun and that cycle also includes retrograde motion and the conditions of being fast or being slow or even stationary. interpretations really flow from the nature of the condition.

However all of these conditions are to be treated as being secondary to the placement and function of the planet in your chart, which determines it's basic interpretation. Thus if Venus in a night chart rules your career then it's going to do reasonably well unless Venus is badly placed in your chart, in an idle house or afflicted by a malefic. If we assume it's not badly placed and there's no obvious affliction, then the basic interpretation holds. How far your career will go well, will be influenced by those accidental dignities but not reversed by them.

Mutual Reception and indeed Reception itself are more important. One of the key concepts in traditional Astrology is that a planet that is not in its own sign is dependent on its ruler to deliver its promise. This breaks down into two key issues. Firstly the extent to which planet and ruler 'get on'and secondly the extent to which the ruler is also well or badly placed.

Thus if Venus is in Sagittarius in your tenth house of career and is ruled by Jupiter in the Ascendant and in Pisces this promises great success. Venus in your tenth house of career and in Aquarius and ruled by Saturn in Aries in the twelfth and the promise is greatly reduced. Saturn is in Fall and also badly placed. The condition of Saturn will drag down Venus. Your career now will be moderately successful but nothing like as good as in the previous case.

Hi Minderwiz,

Thank you for breaking this down. I'll have this bookmarked as reference.

Larxene

Hello Ira,

Also note that in addition to what Minderwiz said above, each dignity or debility actually has its own quality, just as every planet has its distinct qualities when dignified, and when debilitated.

Let's say in a chart we find that Venus is of the sect in favour (night chart), in her domicile (e.g. Taurus) and in a favourable place/house (e.g. 11th place). In another chart we find the Moon in a night chart, in her domicile and in the favourable 11th place.

Although these two planets have similar setups (being of the sect, in their domiciles and in the 11th place), they nevertheless indicate different effects. Both planets' effects will be positive, but they are positive in different ways. With Venus, for example, the native may have harmonious relationships with friends and is popular with women. With the Moon, it may be that the native is lucky with friends, and gains money and property from associations or organisations, perhaps those who deal with women.

As you can see, there are some similarities (both deal with women), but there are also differences (luck, property vs. harmony and popularity with women). [Note that these are just examples, and are not meant to be exhaustive of planetary effects.]

In the same manner:

1. A planet in its domicile does not have identical effects with a planet in its exaltation.
2. A planet that is retrograde does not produce the same negative effects as a planet in its fall.

...and the list goes on.

Hope this helped,

Larxene

Ira

Larxene said:
Hello Ira,

Also note that in addition to what Minderwiz said above, each dignity or debility actually has its own quality, just as every planet has its distinct qualities when dignified, and when debilitated.

Let's say in a chart we find that Venus is of the sect in favour (night chart), in her domicile (e.g. Taurus) and in a favourable place/house (e.g. 11th place). In another chart we find the Moon in a night chart, in her domicile and in the favourable 11th place.

Although these two planets have similar setups (being of the sect, in their domiciles and in the 11th place), they nevertheless indicate different effects. Both planets' effects will be positive, but they are positive in different ways. With Venus, for example, the native may have harmonious relationships with friends and is popular with women. With the Moon, it may be that the native is lucky with friends, and gains money and property from associations or organisations, perhaps those who deal with women.

As you can see, there are some similarities (both deal with women), but there are also differences (luck, property vs. harmony and popularity with women). [Note that these are just examples, and are not meant to be exhaustive of planetary effects.]

In the same manner:

1. A planet in its domicile does not have identical effects with a planet in its exaltation.
2. A planet that is retrograde does not produce the same negative effects as a planet in its fall.

...and the list goes on.

Hope this helped,

Larxene

Yes it has, Larxene. Thanks for the insight

I'm adding all this as reference atm, and doing my own observations on the side.

Minderwiz

Larxene is right, it's important to consider both the planet and the nature of their essential dignities(or lack of them) in your interpretation and especially how that dignity for that planet is likely to be expressed. I think it was Robert Schmidt who made a comment on Albert Einstein's exalted Mars in Capricorn as explaining his eccentric behaviour to his family and children (Mars rules his fifth house as well as his tenth house of career).

I'll see if I can find the quote and post it because Scmidt makes a couple of observations on the explanation of essential dignities. It's in a video of one of his lectures, so it might be difficult to track down.

Larxene

Minderwiz,

According to what I remember from Curtis Manwaring, a planet in detriment has its effects "turn bad". The planets in detriment have positive effects, but those effects become ruined eventually. Another characterisation is that a planet in detriment fails to deliver on its promises.

There may be other things too, like a planet in domicile is like the owner of a house, and a planet in exaltation is like a VIP, but I don't know if this originates from Schmidt or other astrologers.

I am currently interested in researching this subject because Lilly's table shows that, for example, domicile has a higher value than exaltation, whereas Maternus would have it that a planet in exaltation is better than a planet in its domicile. Perhaps they are both right. So I am trying to figure out in what sense domicile is superior to exaltation, and vice versa.

Then we have the trigons. This dignity is very important for both Dorotheus and Valens, but is inferior to domicile and exaltation according to Lilly. My sense is that trigons have power over a particular topic within a subset of one's life span, and in that sense may be inferior to domicile, as the latter have power over a particular topic for the entire life span. Of course neither lords may be activated as time lords at any particular time, and so their effects may not be apparent during the time they are inactive. But trigon lords also affect one's overall eminence, whereas there is no known techniques which utilise domicile lords to forecase eminence. So in this aspect, trigon lords may be superior to domicile lords.

Bounds and decans are the most obscure dignities. I am unsure of the rationale behind these dignities. I do not use the decans because there is not much documentation about it in the Hellenistic texts. Nevertheless, I think they were used to forecast ailments, illnesses, injuries and bodily weaknesses, once upon a time.

Larxene

Minderwiz

Larxene,

Don't take Lilly's table too literally. It's a Medieval device and you won't find an equivalent in earlier Hellenistic Astrology. I think even Lilly is apt to 'stretch' those scores. The essential dignities seem to have originated separately. The decans are Egyptian, The others are probably Hellenistic but were parts of different systems that came together, rather as the house meanings did. I think the general conclusion on these is that they are not originally part of the same system but very early on became incorporated into current practice. It's not clear where the bounds or confines come from but it seems there were different systems even before Ptolemy's variant (which according to Ptolemy, he found in an ancient text). The bounds that came to be dominant are those describes as Egyptian, but unlike the decans, the term probably refers to those used or developed in Alexandria, a Greek speaking city.

I find the easiest way to look at it is by realising that Hellenistic Astrologers did not interpret planets in signs. Rather they interpreted planets in the domiciles of other planets. So Venus in Aries (in detriment) is interpreted as Venus and Mars acting together, or at least Venus acting under the influence of Mars, or in a way that will 'please' her host. The result is a Venus that tries to act out her natural signification but gets sidetracked or unduly influenced by her host. A more aggressive Venus, if you like. Thus Venus' effects will not be what they were if Venus were in Pisces (exaltation), influenced by Jupiter. The latter is likely to be more beneficial to the native (but beware of excesses) than the former.

Also remember there is a difference in the interpretation due to the Sect of the chart. Venus in Aries will signify different behaviour in a Day chart compared to a Night Chart, where Venus is the benefic of Sect and Mars is the Malefic of sect. You would expect more 'perversion' of Venus in Aries in a Day chart where Venus and Mars are both out of Sect and Mars is more malefic and Venus less benefic.