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View Full Version : Move Tarot Deck Creation to Subscribers Only


skytwig
28-02-2004, 03:26
After reading this post (http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?s=&postid=250932#post250932), I am suggesting that we move the Tarot Deck Creation section to the more secure area of Subscribers Only.

We need a place to discuss our baby projects safely..... having the forum in the main area is akin to discussing our work in Times Square...... much too public.

Much as we may wish all people who come here are trustworthy and honorable, the truth is, theives go wherever they can get in freely......

I believe most of the artists of new decks are subscribers anyway....

:)

lunalafey
28-02-2004, 03:45
sounds reasonable to me

Major Tom
28-02-2004, 04:23
Speaking from a strictly personal viewpoint: I would vigorously resist any attempt to move the Tarot Deck Creation Board to subscriber only.

Let's step back a minute for the shock of seeing that a friend's work might be stolen from a public board and consider for a moment of the purpose of the board. Is it the purpose of the board to provide protection from the unscrupulous?

To my way of thinking the Tarot Deck Creation board exists to encourage everyone to create their own tarot deck and to provide a space where their work may be shared and discussed. This gives the artists the opportunity to showcase their work and receive feedback in what is a relatively supportive environment.

The Tarot Deck Creation board has to be public to fulfill its function. There are many more members who are not subscribers than subscribers who have posted links to examples of their work.

Regarding the case in hand with our dear friend Baba-prague, may I just point out that the work was stolen from her website and not the board, which due to size restrictions, doesn't allow for posting the high resolution images that would permit theft.

Please, let's not over-react over an upsetting situation. Keep the Tarot Deck Creation Board public!

Chronata
28-02-2004, 04:26
Right away this seems like a really good idea... IF it actually does protect artists and creators from having thier images stolen...

but, playing Devil's advocate for a moment... Don't a lot of people who create decks already have thier images on another website somewhere else? (I don't...but I know many who do...)

Would it really be protecting them at all then?

And my other concearn is for "starving artists" who may not be able to afford the subscription (I was one... for a long time!)
I think they still deserve a place to put up images and ask for help and guidence for thier creations.

Just my thought! :)

Demonesse
28-02-2004, 04:27
I agree with Major Tom. The Creation board is a vital part of the non-subscriber section.

Imagemaker
28-02-2004, 04:29
For the slight fee a thief would need to pay to see images in the subscriber section, I don't think such a move would be protection at all. And as MT said, the danger this time was the website as source.

Besides, the Bohemian Cats website only recently went fully active, didn't it? These AT images have been available for a comparatively long time.

Centaur
28-02-2004, 05:48
Originally posted by Major Tom
Please, let's not over-react over an upsetting situation. Keep the Tarot Deck Creation Board public!

I agree. This board acts as a forum by which the deck-creator can share his/her work and receive feedback. If this section is made a subscriber's only section, then that feedback would be reduced by a large extent, as there are a considerable amount of non-subscribers contributing to the discussion.

C

baba-prague
28-02-2004, 06:29
Well, in spite of this and the fact that I think I'm still in something of a state of shock, I also think it should be kept public.
edited to add - though Skytwig I really appreciate you starting this discussion. I think it's very important.

In fact, what happened to us is not simple theft - it was a con trick. But the fact that this person could steal work off the site - via AT - and use it to effectively blackmail us and back up his con is what really panicked me into removing everything (I also have both our web friends madly putting up copyright and trademark notices).

I think what would be very useful would be some sort of "advice to read" piece. Rather like the tarot history pages that tarotl have, I almost think we could do with a really thorough "basic advice on creating a deck" piece that includes some information on legalities and copyright, "tricks" used to take work (though I am in two minds about this - like i say I almost think it could be used as a tutorial) and also other useful and less scary stuff like lists of publishers, some printing advice, some first hand experiences, how to do a spreadsheet to make sure you don't actually lose money on your work, all that kind of stuff.

What I did think of a while back was a small closed group for some deck designers to discuss issues in absolute private. I know that sometimes there are things that people want to share but can't say in any sort of public forum - but simply putting it under "subscribers" may not be enough in any case. I know one deck designer here attracted some sort of stalker - but he/she (I won't say which) emailed me to say that - and did not say anything as far as I know in public (I hope if they read this they won't mind me saying this - I would never give any indication of their identity). It's actually one of my motivations behind my "deck reviews" thread - it was kind of meant as a "think twice" warning as much as anything. I just wanted to air the issue (I had a very odd demand for a deck for "review" which directed me to a porn site when I asked who he reviewed for - that was why I posted the thread).

In general though I think we should be able to be in the open.
The problem I keep coming back to is that a warning about putting "copyright" and so on across images would not have prevented our current situation - I'm not sure how anyone can be warned to look out for conmen. The problem is that conmen are believable - they have to be.

edited again to say - sorry I don't think I'm all that coherent tonight. I hope any of that made sense.

jmd
28-02-2004, 07:37
Again, the episode reminds me of a wonderful little quote I read over twenty years ago penned by J. G. Bennett in his wonderful The Dramatic Universe:Security can only be achieved at the cost of freedom...and of course, the 'security' is only ever partial, but the freedom already paid!

Those who have 'whacky' ideas they wish to discuss more privately in the subscriber area already have that option.

It is a pity to have to add copyright wordings to materials which are clearly the property of others... but understand the concerns given the legalistic and unscrupulous mind of some (as in the case of a person who registered a well-known name in a country which permitted such)!

HudsonGray
28-02-2004, 07:44
I agree too with keeping it off the subscriber section. There's too small an audience there compared to who it would benefit (knowledgewise) by keeping it up on the regular board.

We just have to be ultra careful about conmen & thieves, as they've always been around & always will be. But still follow up legally with those who are trying to rip people off. Sometimes even 'legit' things get turned around--I had a sale of 14 dolls to one store in California, the owner tore one apart, duplicated the pattern & sent to China to have 5,000 made. Fortunately two people who know me & my design contacted me when he advertised them in a comic suppliers catalog & I was able to get my copyright protected. I got a cut of the price he sold them at & restriction on him to never make another or I get triple damages.

They're out there, but they can be stopped. And even international thieving can be tackled--there are laws in place. I'm sorry you had this scare, Baba, at least you didn't have it get to the point where you actually lost anything. You're lucky. Prosecute the guy if you can.

skytwig
29-02-2004, 02:53
I encourage posters in this thread to read the thread I listed in my first post here.... there are numerous instances of internet theft listed. Here is what I posted there today, in response to Astraea's observation:


:
-----------------------------------------
Originally posted by Astraea

It worries me when I see any images of unpublished decks on the Internet, whether small/cropped or whole -- it's not only the image that can be stolen, but the idea (known in legal circles as "intellectual property"). Some of these wonderful artists might someday be confronted with a scenario in which they see their own designs staring back at them from a bookstore shelf. And the costs involved in proving and fighting copyright violations are enormous.
-----------------------------------------


by skytwig
Which is why I suggested in another thread, that we move Tarot Deck Creation to the Subscriber section.... it is like a Nursery of baby decks and we now have it flung so far out in public that anyone can 'shop' their for stealing.....

I really think we need to stop being so generous with our trust and accept that we are brilliant people with great ideas from whom others want to steal!!! Of all the forums on this site, this one seems to be most vulnerable and maybe even most valuable.....

One possibility is to have a similar forum in the open to the Universe section.... with warnings listed and encouragement of members to subscribe to the more private forum......

No matter what, we need to list warnings in this forum.... offering suggestions for how to post artwork.... i.e. small sizes, half pictures, etc......

skytwig
29-02-2004, 02:59
Originally posted by Major Tom
Regarding the case in hand with our dear friend Baba-prague, may I just point out that the work was stolen from her website and not the board, which due to size restrictions, doesn't allow for posting the high resolution images that would permit theft. Actually, if i have read her posts correctly, the theft occurred not through her website, but through her postings of artwork here at Aeclectic......

HudsonGray
29-02-2004, 07:10
It could have been taken from either, as both places had links to the pictures.

Just putting all this over to the subscriber section won't stop theft, anyone willing to pay to get into the subscriber area has access to whatever is posted anyway. What's needed is some form of 'lockdown' that can be put on a picture & not broken, so when it's clicked to copy, you can't copy anything.

Astraea
29-02-2004, 07:20
But even if a way is found to prohibit copying or printing an image, the theme or concept can still be stolen.

The Internet is the electronic version of the American Wild West at the turn of the 19th century -- it is easy to be an outlaw and get away with it, as unregulated as the Web is. And I'm not sure that we want all the regulations we would have to have in order to maximize on-line security. The Web is the global brain -- it's accessible somehow, in some way, to almost everyone with a will. Sadly, it seems to me that the only truly effective way to protect one's creative work is not to display it until hard copyrights are already in place.

Astra
29-02-2004, 12:31
Originally posted by HudsonGray
It could have been taken from either, as both places had links to the pictures.

Just putting all this over to the subscriber section won't stop theft, anyone willing to pay to get into the subscriber area has access to whatever is posted anyway. What's needed is some form of 'lockdown' that can be put on a picture & not broken, so when it's clicked to copy, you can't copy anything.
Unfortunately, HudsonGray, that's not possible.

Having read the thread so far, I suppose I'm changing my mind to agree that the forum should be public rather than subscriber, but I think that we need to put up a sticky that shows all the ways that graphics can be ripped off - baba-prague, the thieves know this already - it's the unsuspecting artists that need to have a feel for how EASY it is to grab graphics off the web.

Sorta simple - for the graphic to be displayed on your computer, the file has to be downloaded first. While you're looking at it, you go into Temporary Internet files, find the graphic, and copy it to a new location. Thereafter, you have the file to work with. Disabling right clicks doesn't work, putting it into Flash files doesn't work (screenshots with Alt-Print Screen or grabbing the Flash file itself are both possible) - at least, not if the person who wants the file is willing to go to any trouble at all.

Nevada
29-02-2004, 12:58
Originally posted by skytwig
One possibility is to have a similar forum in the open to the Universe section.... with warnings listed and encouragement of members to subscribe to the more private forum......

No matter what, we need to list warnings in this forum.... offering suggestions for how to post artwork.... i.e. small sizes, half pictures, etc...... I agree with listing warnings, but I'm not convinced the Subscriber-only section would be more secure. All someone has to do is subscribe, to have access to whatever is posted there. Even in the subscriber section, artists would need to exercise caution, use watermarks, and so forth. I also think the Tarot Deck Creation forum helps attract a lot of newcomers before they subscribe.

JMD speaks profound wisdom. There are risks in life. It's up to the individual to decide what risks to take. It's sad that theft occurs, and I deplore it, but freedom requires some risk.

If someone wanted to post artwork in the Chat forum instead, couldn't they do so, in any case?

Nevada

baba-prague
29-02-2004, 21:19
I've edited this down to just the bare bones as I hope anyone interested has read it. I'd rather only leave the very basic information on the forum. I hope you understand. Perhaps soon I can get back to normal without having to be so cautious!


So - it isn't simple bootlegging. It's actually more serious in a way because it was actually about trying to get us to sign away our rights.

The access to files on the internet makes it easier for such people, and that's what has woken me up to how very careful you have to be. Formerly I thought that if you only showed say, fifty cards, then nothing could be bootlegged. In fact, the clever people are not out to bootleg, they are out to OWN other people's work - and to get documentation to prove it.

Astraea
29-02-2004, 23:02
Baba-Prague, this is awful. Do you know how he first became aware of your work?

baba-prague
01-03-2004, 00:28
again - assuming this has been read I'm removing any details. Hope no-one minds.

If I sound calmer it's because I did a reading which was absolutely to the point and said that as long as we are active and balanced - and rational, not emotional - then in fact all will be fine. It was an almost scarily to the point spread, one of those you can read off in a few minutes.

Plus I have to say that seeing Lotte's first attempts at playing with a kitten also cheered me up - she can't decide if she wants to play or is too terrified - this with a little wobbly three week-old kitty. Lotte is a dear and makes us laugh a lot - but brave she isn't! (whoops - maybe need to add here that Lotte is not a person but the youngest of our two cats.)

Astraea
01-03-2004, 07:04
This sounds like a very, very close call which will end in your favor. I hope that the authorities will take appropriate action and that your work will be 100% safeguarded.

baba-prague
01-03-2004, 19:54
Thanks Astraea, I do think it will be alright, and as Alex says, perhaps it's the kind of lesson that will serve us well at some time in the future.

I hope that the lessons can be summarised - in not too much detail - and passed on to others here. I assume that if it can happen to us it can happen to anyone.

Astra
02-03-2004, 02:15
baba-prague - it might happen to anyone, but YOU were in the position of having a deck on the market that is actually beginning to make money, with signs that the next one would, also.

I suspect that any sticky put on the Tarot Deck Creation section should accent that - the real con men don't start moving in until there's something there to steal. The more someone thinks they have to gain by stealing intellectual property, the more tempting it becomes, and I can see how your and Alex's work would be looking increasingly tasty to someone who wants to make a quick buck.

Solandia
03-03-2004, 15:37
I'm sorry to hear that someone attempted to steal baba-prague's intellectual property - I hope the situation is easily resolved.

Tarot Deck Creation will be staying as a public forum for now. Regarding the copying of images from the forum: anyone wanting to see images posted as attachments in TDC must be a registered member.

While this doesn't provide perfect security, it does prevent the general public from downloading card images displayed there. (Unfortunately, links to images located on other websites are a different story; in that case is up to the individual webmaster or designer.)

~ Solandia