Tarot vs. Religion

[Tarot Sparrow]

I had a somewhat unsettling experience a few minutes ago and just wanted to share it with everyone. My Tarot of Mermaids that I have been awaiting for 2 months from Chapters Books in Canada was just recently cancelled from my order as they were unable to order it in. Currently, I am visiting with my grandparents in Penticton, B.C. so I decided I could try the local bookstores to see if they had it. There was only one main bookstore that I wanted to get ahold of, but I accidentally called the wrong number and reached a Christian bookstore. I didn't realize this until after I asked them if they had tarot decks. At first the woman didn't seem to understand me, but then she realized I meant tarot cards and said, "No, we are a Christian bookstore," and told me they didn't sell those kinds of items (she referred to "those items" with a specific word, but I can't remember what it was. All I know is it was something "non-Christian" or of that nature). I apologized and told her I meant to reach another bookstore, when she began to launch into a lecture about how I shouldn't be using those kinds of things, and what would happen if I got into them. I was shocked and as soon as I realized what was happening, I hung up the phone (as bad as that made me feel). Despite being a polite person I was not about to sit there and have some woman with no real knowledge of tarot lecture me on its evils and wrongdoings.

Even though I didn't stick around long enough to listen to much of this, I got the jist of what she thought about it and how she was trying to force this kind of belief on me that it was wrong. It was definitely uncomfortable, as I've never encountered this before. There are people who don't believe in tarot and that's fine, but I've never had someone actually try to preach to me about it being evil when they obviously know nothing about what it truly is and isn't. Especially from someone at a reputable bookstore, and over the telephone no less!

I know there are many Christians who use tarot cards, I in fact used to be one myself before I converted to Paganism and spirituality. But some people are just incredibly close-minded, no matter what their religious or ethical beliefs.

I'd like to start a discussion on this. If anyone has had similar experiences I'd love for them to share, and I'd also like to know what your views are on the subject of tarot vs. religion. How misunderstood is it really, and what is the general view on tarot in other religions? How do people arrive at the conclusions and assumptions that tarot is, essentially, a "tool of the devil"? Is there any way we could raise awareness on this?

[brandi124]

Well as christian myself I can tell you that I went through a lot of soul searching before deciding to pursue my interest in tarot. You're right-- it's a pretty common belief amongst I'd say most Christians that things like tarot and other forms of divination are frowned upon to say the least. Fortune telling is specifically warned against in old testament scriptures. As a believer in Jesus and the Bible I've been questioned once or twice about how I can also be a tarot practitioner as well and here's how I explain it...
I believe in tarot cards the same way that some people believe in Dr. Phil. Seriously. I mean the fact is is that he is usually right and his advice can be very useful but he can't change your life for you and it's probably not a good idea to "worship" him or anyother psychologist, psychiatrist, etc. I'm the same way with my cards-- they are a tool but I don't worship them in any sense of the word. I also feel like divination was given such a hard time in the Bible first of all because *it works* and second of all because it was distracting people from *God*. I do truly believe Jesus was a man and was the son of God-- that is a fact to me but I incorporate all kinds of spiritual practices into my life because they work for me. I personally do not choose to buy into the man-made bastardizations of christianity that have lead people to do truly heinous things in the name of Christ.

Surprisingly many of my christian friends have been incredibly understanding after I explain my tarot reading to them in this way. But I'm sure not all christians would feel the same way. I don't know in the end, I think it is imperative however to always show respect for other people and whatever spiritual path they are on.

[Shesawolf]

I was sitting in a Starbucks, waiting for my son. I had just bought the Radiant RW deck - I was enthusiastic to see it. Trying to be descreet, I didn't actually layout the cards, but was thumbing through them. A man walked up to me, and although very pleasant, he was trying to get me to go to his church. He was more or less implying that the cards weren't a bible, and if I wanted "real" answers, I should visit his church the following Sunday. I politely declined - and was very thankful that he got the hint that I didn't want to talk anymore and left. But, that wasn't too bad - not compared to your phone call.

But it has been very interesting learning that I can't tell many people that I read Tarot. Some folks that I thought wouldn't think twice about it, have almost been "spooked" when I told them. I've gotten to the point that when I see the "deer in the headlights" look, I have to tell them "Don't worry, I don't sacrifice animals, raise the dead, or drink blood... I get enjoyment from them - and it's that simple." And with an audible sigh of relief we continue talking.

But I have been preached to, and questioned, and drilled (never teased though). One friend said: "Tsk, tsk, poor baby." And once I was told the cards are "of the devil" and I was going to go to hell for reading them... All of this (fear) definately stems from a misunderstanding or misconceptions.

When asked to explain "why" (e.g. why they work or why I read them), I share the history and what the cards do for me. The best way I've been able to explain is with this analogy/story:
"Have you ever heard a song a dozen times, or seen a movie over and over again, and then one time - when you're having some problem - you're listening to that song, or watching that movie and *suddenly* you gain inspiration about your problem... a new perspective... or maybe now you understand something you didn't before? Well, the cards work like that: inspiration. It's all based on my own reality and sub-conscious needs, desires, lessons."

Some folks are dismissive, some intrigued, others want a reading, and others totally avoid the subject for ever more.

For me, I've learned to be careful about who I 'share' with, but I don't hide the fact that I read... I still feel too shy to read in coffee houses (or even on the airplane)... when asked, I'll answer the questions directly - my place is not to convince anyone that my way is true... they have their path - I have mine.

For those that lecture, I smile, say thank you for their opinion and/or the information, ask if they have a question (still smiling), and then continue on my path...

[Phoenix Rising]

I was just going to post a thread this morning about "conversation with a Christian" And yes I rang a christian book shop by mistake, and yes he told me it was cursed, and that the bible said that we are not to use those sort of things. So I could feel myself getting worked up, and he wanted to give me some literature about inviting Jesus into my life.
So of course I had to add a few things in there. I said "I don't fear God, and he will not strike me down because I'm using Tarot cards"
He said if I don't want to do it for myself then I should for my childrens sake!
But yes I was pretty annoyed afterwards, saying to myself "ignorant fool" So just a idea of what we're going to face, People have their own beliefs, so I'm not going to force my opinion on them either.
Yeah what can you say. I knew a lady who owned a metaphysical shop and she was a wiccan. She had alot of hassle with a group of christians and the local city council too, and she closed up shop.

[lunakasha]

Originally posted by Shesawolf
Some folks that I thought wouldn't think twice about it, have almost been "spooked" when I told them. I've gotten to the point that when I see the "deer in the headlights" look, I have to tell them "Don't worry, I don't sacrifice animals, raise the dead, or drink blood... I get enjoyment from them - and it's that simple." And with an audible sigh of relief we continue talking.

LMAO, Shesawolf!!! What an excellent comeback!!!
Thanks for making me chuckle! :laugh:

On a more serious note....I find it appalling, not to mention a little scary, that so many people in today's society--the 21st century!--still have such an ugly perception of Tarot and people who practice it. These so-called "Christians" are also the first to point out (whether you want to hear it or not) that homosexuals are going to HELL, that listening to rock music means you have a pact with the Devil, and the same with people who dress a certain way--the "Goth" look--it just goes on and on and on....

***Please understand that I am referring here to a specific group of Christians, not ALL Christians....you know who I am talking about, right? The holier-than-thou, born-again Christians who go out of their way to point all of us "sinners" in the right direction. Very much like the bookstore owner mentioned by Dead Star.

If you do not classify yourself as one of these people, then you have no need to be offended...;)***

I have nothing against Christians in general, but it is these fundamentalist groups, the "morally superior" few who give Christianity a bad name! I don't go up to complete strangers and try to force my religious views--or even tarot--down their throats. All I ask is for that same level of respect.

:) Luna

[brandi124]

I was just at a metaphysical bookshop a week or two ago and a man was standing out front with a sign on his chest saying that "homos are going to hell" and he was shouting at everyone who went into the bookstore that the witches inside were cursed and going to hell too. Well I don't know about WWJD (what would Jesus do) in a lot of situations but I'm pretty sure he wouldn't do THAT. Something, huh?

[Macavity]

I think it depends on how much time and energy YOU want to spend? I do sense there's comfort in finding kindred spirits and indeed licking one's wounds. It sounds an unpleasant experience. But it may be that's exactly what SHE had to resort to herself - on some Christian forum? No excuses, but when someone challenges our deeply held beliefs, it sets up a kind of... "cognitive dissonance"? For some this MUST be dealt with immediately or their whole system is perceived under threat? Methods are various and indeed documented! This may e.g. be quite aggressive - as in "putting up a fight" or simply repeating over and over (often learned) stock answers for any such situation.

Where folk have invested hugely in faith and derive rewards in doing so, why would they (or anyone) change? Often there are (perceived) VERY negative consequences of doing so - "Going to Hell" might be a very REAL fear! On the other hand, many (esp. on the internet) find a state of almost continual conflict is great fun? Witness the prolifereation of political, religious, recovery forums? I just observe that there's less chance of a "punch on the nose" online... or on the telephone? But seriously, I've yet to see anyone say: "Wow, my Friend - You've really opened my eyes on that one - I'm changing my mind"! :laugh:

I'm sure a cognitive expert would say you're "awful-izing"? (Isn't it awful that... ;)) This is usually deemed counterproductive? I say maybe a little is good for you - We're all human! Otherwise complain re. this person's professional conduct? Potential loss of revenue and all that! })

Macavity

[Indigo Rose]

I am a "devout" Christian, in that I believe in and serve Jesus Christ and the Hebrew God of the Bible. I worship Jesus and live in an effort to honor his commands. I am not a saint and believe that GRACE covers a lot of my mistakes. I also read Tarot. I too have been victimized by people who have condemned me to hell for reading Tarot. It is a shame because they fail to realize they are actually bringing judgment on themselves, according to the Bible.
Romans 2:1
"You, therefore, have no excuse who pass judgment on someone else, for whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things."
Romans 2:6
"God will give to each person according to what he has done."

I am sorry for to all of you here who are not Christians, and are continually ASSAULTED by my supposed brethen in the Christian faith. They are wrong.

My father, who just passed, suffered terrible persecution from many Christians in his life. He was Bipolar and Paranoid Schizophrenic, and in this past 2 years suffered from Dementia. He was told by ministers and fellow Christians that HE WAS damned to hell and the voices he heard were demonic spirits. Well of course that is a lie. He was mentally ill. This is a scientific fact. However, my father had a beautiful and loving spirit....and HE LOVED JESUS. He would never accept those lies from supposed Christians, and instead clung to the word of GOD and the Lord himself. He never lost his faith in Jesus, just his faith in man.
Jesus taught us to love one another, not condemn each other to hell. The Lord holds the keys to eternity, not mankind. I am truly sorry that all of you who are not Christians are forever being given the wrong vision of who Jesus Christ is and what he stands for. Please accept my apologies as a Christian.
Live in LOVE.
Blessings,
Indigo Rose

[HOLMES]

when i first saw this thread name i thought i was looking at a discussion is tarot a religion, does tarot come from religion, is there religous undertones in the tarot,

but intead got christian religion judgements vs the tarot,
so i had to take second gear shift,

there is no comeback unless i want to get into a debate with someone who calls the tarot evil,for their minds are made up, but if they asked me , how does it work, who made it, then that gives me something to debate about,

for me to answer the evil comment would be me to have to defend my tarot understanding, and possible beliefs, and attack their beliefs by explaining, oh the church preached that divination was evil as to keep the power for themselves in the middle ages.
(i dont' even know that for a fact and that is a discrimation comment on my end ).

i do know that once i was attacked by energy i could feel when a lady said i dont' believe in that,
i said you don't have to believe in that , it works and that is all that matters to me,
i was just 19 to 20 at the time, and so i reacted differntly.

the only way to combat this if one wishes to is to start a campign with a book , newletter, and furthermore, however then people would say , how come you handing out newletter like the jevoh witiness. and i would say , beats me just wanting to share,
but that is a route i don't want to take for it would take too much energy, time, resources, and what is the use, ?
beats me

[lunakasha]

Originally posted by Indigo Rose
I am a "devout" Christian, in that I believe in and serve Jesus Christ and the Hebrew God of the Bible. I worship Jesus and live in an effort to honor his commands. I am not a saint and believe that GRACE covers a lot of my mistakes. I also read Tarot. I too have been victimized by people who have condemned me to hell for reading Tarot. It is a shame because they fail to realize they are actually bringing judgment on themselves, according to the Bible....I am sorry for to all of you here who are not Christians, and are continually ASSAULTED by my supposed brethen in the Christian faith. They are wrong.

Please accept my apologies as a Christian.

Hi Indigo!

You have absolutely nothing to apologize for...you obviously are a loving and compassionate person who does not use religion as an excuse to attack other people...it is really sad that the church has persecuted you and your father the way they did. This was exactly the point I was trying to make...that none of us, Christian or otherwise, should be making judgements about other people. We should all try to love and accept one another, which is what God/Jesus/Spirit expects us to do....

Thank you so much for sharing your experience...and I am so sorry about what happened to your father.

:) Luna

[Thea Lynx]

Hi Dead Star,

I was raised heavy duty catholic and only left that path five years ago - I won't go into the long list of my problems with that church, they are my own and I wouldn't try to influence anyone or want to seem like I was engaged in catholic-bashing, which is not the case. I became pagan long before I took up the Tarot as a serious study. But it is not because I am pagan. I was drawn to the Tarot long, long ago, but did not embark upon serious study for a number of reasons.

There is room for the Tarot in any faith path. Any faith path will have its conservatives, liberals and hard core fundamentalists. I do not judge them, I refuse to allow them to judge me.

Should I ever return to christianity, or any path other than that which I am now on, the Tarot will go with me. It is not a religion, it is a path to self-awareness that expands my soul, my beliefs, my intuition, my participation in the world.

Thea Lynx

[Khatruman]

This type of question comes around again every so often, where a tarot enthusiast encounters a religious adherent who does his or her best to convince the tarotist that the cards are evil. Someone who works hard to do this has most probably shut down a previously open mind and one can really do nothing more than "hang up" as you have done, whether that is to literally shut off the conversation or pleasantly divert it. More times than not, I have heard the closed-minded person to be a "Christian."

Without launching into my thoughts and experiences again, I would rather use this opportunity to offer my latest observation on the religion/tarot clash, geared more specifically to Christianity and tarot. I have found that there are two extremes among followers of Christianity as to how they stand on the issue of tarot. Of course, people being people and different depending on who you talk to, not all Christians fall onto one or the other side, but my experience has shown it to be quite polarized.

You will have the Christian who sees more in the spirit of Christianity, and will embrace tarot as a tool to become closer to God, seeing its positive ability to help one tap into an understanding of God and the world. If Christ answered the question on what is the greatest commandment with two: love your neighbor as yourself, and love God with all your heart, then this group will see tarot's possibility in allowing one to connect with his fellow human, through reading and understanding each other, and its possibility of being closer to God, in seeing that a deep force works in all things, including the cards.

Then you will have the Christian who looks more at the religion of Christianity, following the rules taught in church and the warnings of Satan's temptations. This Christian's faith is built on obeying the teachings of the sheperds of the church and not thinking independently, but following. Straying from any path not laid out explicitly by Scripture and Pastor constitutes falling onto the Devil's path. To this Christian, tarot has been taught, if taught at all, to be an instrument of Satan to sway God's followers. God commands and we are to obey.

I think it was in Rachel Pollack's wonderful book The Forest of Souls where I picked up a new understanding even of the Scripture linguistically which makes a significant difference. In many English translations of the Scriptures, there is a word that is translates as "commands"--that God commands this, and God commands that. Command is an assertive, if not aggressive word, and gives one the impression of a domineering parent's edict. The word that is translated as "command" though, actually is closer in meaning to the English word "desire": God desires us to do this, God desires that we be that way. What a more magnificent word is "desires"! There is a deeper emotional connection in that word, a heat and fire. There is intimacy and closeness, as of a God who is not towering over us and barking commands, but of one wrapped around us and expressing love and wants.

I prefer to see God as deeply entwined within me, around me, through all humanity rather than one aloof, above and glaring down upon me. God is not just the blinding Sun in the sky, but the warm rays that pour through my skin, lights my world.

Hope I made some sense here.

[Kath]

When I got my Thoth deck, very early in my tarot journey, I ordered it through the mail, and had it delivered to work (as opposed to home, where I’d have to pick the parcel up from the post office). Being rather naive, I wanted to show them off. I showed them to my boss, who is a devout Christian.

My boss literally jumped back about a foot, and told me that tarot was evil, that it was used to conjure demons and communicate with the devil, and that I shouldn’t ‘play’ with them, because I risked possession, or summoning evil beings into my life.

To say that I was shocked would be an understatement. This came from a man whom I respect, and whom I consider an intelligent person, and with whom I’ve had some very interesting and insightful discussions on theology and Christianity.

After this, my boss and I had a little talk and I asked him what was the Christian view on tarot cards and the like. He basically said that divination was wrong, and against the teachings of the bible. Of course, it’s different if a Christian has a ‘gift’ whereby they can see the future (that’s a gift from God), but tarot was the tool of the devil (as are astrology, runes, etc.)

That little incident taught me to be careful with who I show my cards to, and to never assume the way people will react. It also makes me a little wary of having my cards or reading a tarot book in public. I don’t think I could do readings in a coffee shop for fear of having someone telling me I’m going to hell. :(

But, in my boss’s defence, he has never preached to me, or told me I was going to hell, and we still continue to have very interesting discussions about theology :)

[DeLani]

Yes, we get that sort of thing all the time here in the Bible Belt. And I think it's getting worse, more virulent, with Bush II in office. (Seriously - holy war type stuff).
I've been beat up at school, told I couldn't silently meditate on the cards in the library (though vocally praying to the Hebrew/Christian god was OK), and even had parents sign a petition to get me kicked out of a middle school because I was a Witch! (which I am - and how did they find out? Someone broke into my locker and found my Tarot cards! Did they get in trouble for stealing? No...)
I did an interview with the local news station about Wicca on Halloween (of course), and part of the interview dealt with the Tarot (I of course pointed out that you don't have to be a Witch to use the Tarot, and pointed out all the Christian symbolism, etc...). While the segment that was aired was pretty good, it had to start off with comments from "the other side of the aisle" - they actually had a Catholic priest on talking about how Wicca is Satanism! Now would they have done that if they were interviewing a Jew about Hannukah?
These types of Christians are so pushy - they have no regard for freedom of religion, or even common respect for other people's beliefs. They want the world to do as they do, and are not above using violence to enforce their beliefs.

[nocturnaldreamr]

i was baptised into the christian faith.. my parents doing.
i grew up and went to church, and to me i never really "got" it, and it became a chore for me to go. i hated going and came up with every excuse i could to not go (like clean my room. hahah). after awhile my parents got sick of my b.s and my opinions so i was allowed not to go. i have taken religion classes and i have read some parts of the bible and like, it just never made sense to me.
i went through a bad time, after i started to learn about the world we live in and then all the happenings in it (sept 11, war in iraq...) and then this started to make me think of all the past things in history that have happened and i came up with all sorts of questions and i drove my mother crazee with them.
she hated when i asked them, because she never had an answer for me (because she is very sensitive with her faith and won't open mindingly answer my ponderings), so i went to the minister at the church i used to go to. ( i never really quit the church for good, i just didnt go. i still went to social crap for the teens like the 30 hour famine retreat.. FUN).. anyways, i talked to the minister for 2 and a half hours, and it was amazing, i was getting some answers, but they werent to my liking. he was pretty biased in his answering and it did feel he was trying to sell me his faith.
i wanted to know the good ol question about adam+eve= cain and able (2 men...) where's their ladies?.. and with so limited 1st people, wouldn't mankind be inbreded? if god promised no more floods, why was there MORE floods?, is god so loved his people, why is there pain, poverty, disease, wars, intolerance, unexceptingness etc etc etc?...
i told him about how i am fasinated with the tarot and astrology. i told him i had played around with ouija boards before, tarot, and i had checked my horoscope. according to his bible, that meant id go to hell and all that crap. he was saying that u had to have faith and not look into the future.
i then had a huge question that was the result of my religion class and the learning of all religions.
all religions say they accept others, don't kill.. blah blah love your neighbour..
however... they say if you follow any other "god", your "going to hell"... so what i was thinking, does this mean, that in the eyes of muslims who believe in their "god", are hindus going to hell for believing in their "gods" and not muslim "god", or in the eyes of hindus, are muslims going to hell for believing in their "god" and not hindu "gods".????
this is alot of my babbling....
any one have any opinion on what i babbled?
i'd love to know what you think!
=o)

[Tarot Sparrow]

Thank you all for your replies. They were very interesting and insightful. It amazes me how awful people can be. I'll have to think about this some more, I've just had a bad day in general. I'd love to hear more. I think everyone should have equal rights and respect the beliefs of others, it's the only humane way to live in my opinion. Otherwise what's the point?

[Tarot Sparrow]

Alright, here are my views on the subject. So just bear with me while I vent...

I believe all people should be treated equally, no matter what their beliefs or lifestyles are. People should respect others and what they believe in, because if you can't do that then what's the point of living? If someone is going to devote their life to something that has no absolute proof of existence or truth then they should at least let others do the same.

Belief can have no right or wrong. It's discrimination. Despite what we believe for ourselves, we should be tolerant of all cultures and religions. I support gay rights and pro-choice abortion just as I support Christianity and Buddhism and all religions and beliefs without actually practicing these things myself. How one can enjoy themselves in their own life if they devote their time to making it difficult for other people, I don't know. We have no right to assume that our religion or beliefs is the only true faith or righteous path, because there is no proof and because we all deserve to live in an unbiased society. No one should pass judgement on things they dont understand, and when they do understand others' beliefs and lifestyles they should really keep their negative opinions/comments to themselves, because nothing gets accomplished by trying to force our beliefs on others, except making them feel attacked and hurt.

I really dont understand why people are so opposed to tarot, though. I know plenty of Christians and all sorts of people who practice tarot as a way to bring them closer to God and their understanding of life, which is the true purpose of tarot. I find it interesting what Kath said about Christianity, for example. If the Bible is against such things as tarot, runes, and other divination tools that are used to "tell the future" but at the same time supports self-prophecy, the ability to see the future as a natural gift from God, there is a remarkable contradiction here. They often believe that somehow by using tarot cards, which are essentially cardboard and ink, we are running the risk of contacting the spirit world and allowing ourselves to become possessed by demons, and things of that nature. But most tarot readers will agree with me that this is impossible, as tarot cards have absolutely no supernatural powers. They are, truly, cardboard with pretty pictures on them. That being said, all power in using most divination tools is within the reader, the person who uses them by relying on their own judgement. And if that is truly the case, and the fact were made widely known to people who believe otherwise, wouldn't that also be considered "a gift from God"?

To me this seems quite silly on their part, and I feel much better having thought of it. It's ridiculous to think such a thing can be evil really, and I feel sorry for people who allow themselves to be that, well really, dumb. I have no problem with them believing or not believing in something, but if their beliefs against such things as tarot cards are contradicted by their belief in natural God-given gifts to the people who possess them, there really is no logic or basis behind such reasoning that tarot cards are evil or dangerous.

I'm in no way directing this at Christians in general of course, only towards that specific group and anyone else who passes judgement on things they don't understand, because it's really quite silly. I've decided that the next time anyone tries to attack my belief in tarot, I'm simply going to say, "They're cards and ink. Get over it."

[Phoenyx*]

Originally posted by Dead Star
I had a somewhat unsettling experience a few minutes ago and just wanted to share it with everyone. My Tarot of Mermaids that I have been awaiting for 2 months from Chapters Books in Canada was just recently cancelled from my order as they were unable to order it in. Currently, I am visiting with my grandparents in Penticton, B.C. so I decided I could try the local bookstores to see if they had it. There was only one main bookstore that I wanted to get ahold of, but I accidentally called the wrong number and reached a Christian bookstore. I didn't realize this until after I asked them if they had tarot decks. At first the woman didn't seem to understand me, but then she realized I meant tarot cards and said, "No, we are a Christian bookstore," and told me they didn't sell those kinds of items (she referred to "those items" with a specific word, but I can't remember what it was. All I know is it was something "non-Christian" or of that nature). I apologized and told her I meant to reach another bookstore, when she began to launch into a lecture about how I shouldn't be using those kinds of things, and what would happen if I got into them. I was shocked and as soon as I realized what was happening, I hung up the phone (as bad as that made me feel). Despite being a polite person I was not about to sit there and have some woman with no real knowledge of tarot lecture me on its evils and wrongdoings.

Even though I didn't stick around long enough to listen to much of this, I got the jist of what she thought about it and how she was trying to force this kind of belief on me that it was wrong. It was definitely uncomfortable, as I've never encountered this before. There are people who don't believe in tarot and that's fine, but I've never had someone actually try to preach to me about it being evil when they obviously know nothing about what it truly is and isn't. Especially from someone at a reputable bookstore, and over the telephone no less!

I know there are many Christians who use tarot cards, I in fact used to be one myself before I converted to Paganism and spirituality. But some people are just incredibly close-minded, no matter what their religious or ethical beliefs.

I'd like to start a discussion on this. If anyone has had similar experiences I'd love for them to share, and I'd also like to know what your views are on the subject of tarot vs. religion. How misunderstood is it really, and what is the general view on tarot in other religions? How do people arrive at the conclusions and assumptions that tarot is, essentially, a "tool of the devil"? Is there any way we could raise awareness on this?

Heh, apparently Dead Star, you've never been to Mississippi. Being a witch (and "out" about it), I've had things from people trying nicely to "save my soul" to people honking at me on the Interstate and waving Bibles at me. And when they find out that I also read Tarot....heh....yeah Delani is right, it has gotten so much worse since Bush II is in office. People have gotten so much more intolerable.
Tarot seems to make it all worse. Being a witch is bad enough in their eyes, but reading Tarot as well....its unheard of for them! I've gotten mixed feelings from people who just think that I read the cards, from a polite eye-rolling, to "What's she gonna do, have a full time job during the week and read Tarot cards during the weekend?!" *laughter*
*sighs deeply* That's why I love this place so much, I can actually freely talk about my love of Tarot.

[Simone]

Originally posted by Triquetra
...I've had things from people trying nicely to "save my soul" to people honking at me on the Interstate and waving Bibles at me.

Having been raised in a mild catholic environment (I "left the club" about 10 years ago), but having had the incredible luck to have parents who let me have my choice, I've never been in contact with this kind of fanaticism, except from a distance. But it leaves me shocked each time I encounter it - how can one not respect other people's choices?

And then the big question about how do those people come to the conclusion that Tarot is evil?? There must be going on a real huge campaign of misinformation and intentional occultation, and all this about a few "scraps of cardboard with pictures on them" :joke:

It all just leaves me puzzled and real sorry for what's happening. And, by the way, I have never heard of something similar in European countries, at least not nowadays (witch hunting and burnings are out since a few years :laugh: )

Trying to save a soul by taking away the possibility to choose ... wow, how incongruent.

But I realise it's the choice they made...

Love
Simone

[brandi124]

yeah Delani is right, it has gotten so much worse since Bush II is in office. People have gotten so much more intolerable.


That is so true. It reminds me a lot of things I read about the era of McCarthyism. When people are scared they are capable of some pretty awful behavior. It's like people want to feel secure at any cost-- even if it means incriminating innocent people just for being different. Has anyone seen the movie "Bowling for Columbine"? I think it should be mandatory viewing all across America and I'd highly recommend it to anyone abroad.

[Alissa]

Originally posted by nocturnaldreamr
however... they say if you follow any other "god", your "going to hell"... so what i was thinking, does this mean, that ... in the eyes of hindus, are muslims going to hell for believing in their "god" and not hindu "gods".???? I am not a Hindu scholar, but have studied the religion, and I can say no where in Hinduism's teachings does it prosletize, or to pass judgment of the God/s/ess/es which someone worships. It is a religion that encourage worship of God or Goddess however you may interact with them, personally.

The Hindu pantheon is comprised of thousands of Gods and Goddesses and even those Gods that are not "Hindu" are still respected by this faith, who believes that every path that leads to Divinity is the same path, regardless.

It is a religion that does not actively convert, nor does it preach an afterlife punishment for worship of "false idols".

My own belief... all the Gods are One God, and All the Goddesses are One Goddess, and we are each of us microcosms of that same Divinity.

To Hindus, this means that *any* authentic path you take to God will lead you to your own "salvation" as the Christians say.

Why do some religions say, "My way or the highway?" This is my belief. Some people are at diferent stages of personal evolution. They are ready, or not ready, for certain Mysteries of existence. Those who are less "prepared" as an individual soul may need a religion that "makes sense" to them, simple answers to hard questions.

To me, trying to talk Spirituality with certain Christians, Muslims, Jews, Catholics, or anyone who is stuck in their own religious box, is tantamount to trying to explain calculus to a 5 year old. It's beyond their capapabilities, at this time, to understand. They aren't "there" yet. They need black and white answers that take the guesswork out of Spirituality, a nice road map to get them from birth to salvation, with a minimal effort.

So why get upset when a 5 year old doesnt get it? Why try to change their minds? When they are ready, they will ask their own questions, and search for their own authentic answers, not the ones that were accepted but went unquestioned.

Namaste~

[Diana]

The Hindus are not better than the Christians, the Muslims, the Jews.... you name it, you'll find extremist madmen.

http://www.freedomhouse.org/religion/publications/India/summary.htm

For years now I've been reading horrific stuff about Hindu extremist violence in India... all in the name of their gods.

If only religion were the Opium of the People, as Karl Marx said (this expression is wrongly attributed to Lenin). At least then it would make people dopey and sleepy.

Organised religion has created some of the worst scum that have existed and exist and will exist.

And getting all excited about Tarot shows just how petty and stupid they are. If ever a religious nutcase tries to get all het up about my Tarot deck, I will squash him like a worm.

[HOLMES]

hasnt' religion created some really good people ?
that is like saying tarot readers have been some of the worst frauds around or pychics readers have been one of the worst fraud arounds,

i know a very religious girl in high school who never judged me, listened to all my talks about the bible, course in miracles, and tarot cards. i listened her to her talks as well.
it was very interesting,

i had a person come up to me who i thought was going to call me infidel, but he said i sincerly believe your people are one of the lost tribes of isreal. (us native canadian the lost tribe of isreal who knew )

any how my point yes religion has created some of the worst scum, and it has created some of the best people as well.

[Alissa]

Originally posted by Diana
The Hindus are not better than the Christians, the Muslims, the Jews.... you name it, you'll find extremist madmen. Nor did I imply they were superior, or "better," just that the faith *in and of itself* does not pass judgment on the worship of Gods outside their own accepted religion.

And there are extremists in every movement, be it religious, political or social. I agree, they're the ones to watch out for.

[contrascarpe]

Hi all -

I grew up Catholic in a small Massachusetts town. I was exposed to Tarot at an early age (around 7) because my parents were cool and encouraged free-thinking to my brother and me. Since my brother was 9 years older than me, I was exposed to things that alot of my peers were not, so I was never prejudiced about alot of things and kept an open mind.

Personally I have never been the victim of bashing by conservative Christians but I have seen it occur. A few years ago a local newpaper had a great article about Wicca and Tarot but a few days later the letters to the editor were swamped by small-minded people. The only reaction I have seen so far was from an uncle of mine. I told him at Christmas that I was getting serious about Tarot again and I thought it would interest him since he was an artist. He became obviously uncomfortable with the situation. My Mom later told me she thought it was because when he was young he had a female friend who was raised by parents in a satanic cult, and he probably associates the two.

That being said, I am not a practicing Catholic anymore - as Thea Lynx said previously, there are just too many issues for me to get into. I have not given up completely on my faith, but I am finding my spiritual path going in different directions.

One quick funny story about Catholic non-tolerance. I grew in a very "holy" four block radius. Across the street from me was a Catholic Church locally dubbed the "Irish Church". Across the street on the other side was yet another Catholic Church known as the "French Church". Finally on the other side of that Church was my Parochial School, affliated with the French Church. Well, being of French descent, I was part of that congregation and for six years went to the school there. Of course we had to have religion class every day and we were constantly told that it was a sin to attend the Irish Church, even though it was the same faith. How is that for non-tolerance? Of course my Dad couldn't resist going to the Church closest to us so I guess I sinned every Sunday, hehe (not to mention that the pastor was better and the Church itself was more beautiful).

Sorry for the long-winded reply, but I guess the bottom line is that I grew up not being afraid to be myself. I am not afraid to openly read tarot books or thumb through cards. I am not afraid to tell people my love for the art. I have had male friends over the years who laughed at me, but this was never religious - it was always macho crap or just a non-belief in things spiritual. Things like that (and religious non-tolerance) only fuel my fire to delve into it deeper and become more open about it.

Dan

[Macavity]

I lost a good online friend (who become a real-life friend) to these people (www.5solas.org) As a fairly devout believer from a Catholic/Orthodox background, my friend started to take part in an online "Bible Study" group. Gradually we began to notice her opinions becomming more and more extreme. She took a big dislike to my personal (and lay) interests in Ancient Egypt and Hieroglyphics, as the "Work of the Devil" and "Idolatory". Hmmm... Good job I wasn't yet into Tarot then? :laugh: But I knew I was on the way out, when she started to question WHY I believed in evolution: Which was "obviously a lie" spread by academics... <sigh>

Most of the hatred on this Calvinist Baptist site (or rather of it's of leader) seems to be devoted to another brand of... Arminian(?) Baptists. They seem to be too DUMB to figure that Catholics (like my friend) aren't part of their Protestant Reformation! Mind you, she seems not to realise that this might lead to her excommunication? I don't think her brother, a priest, would be too keen either! But we have all learned to leave well alone. It's saddening (and maddening) nonetheless. :(

Wierd People.

Macavity

[DewDrop]

I myself is a christian so no affence to all the christians in the world!
When that is said id like to explaine my point of vju.

When a person finds something that makes him feel realy good, he will atomatically think that this is realy good for everyone, and that the opposit is the "evil".

I belive that "Dead star" meet a christian that belive that his "citrus icecram" that he loves is the best for everyone, and that "chocolate" must be tasting like the devil!

But hey, what about the belives of science; Everyone is different from eachother?

What makes me happy doesn´t nessesarily make u happy, isnt that right?

[Indigo Rose]

The truth in all of this is that humans are egocentric. No matter what our belief systems are everyone thinks their own ideas are correct. It is only by choosing to evolve and open our minds, that we can begin to respect other people's beliefs. Every religion has extremists, who hurt others in the pursuit of their own beliefs. For me the path I choose is to live what I believe: Love and be Loved.....all else is TRULY secondary.

Blessings,
Indigo Rose :)

[Tarot Sparrow]

It's been so interesting to read all your views about this. I can't possibly reply to them all separately :D but I will say it amazes me how widespread this can be. The world is misinformed about a lot of things in my opinion, and tarot may be the least of them all. People are definitely very egocentric at times, and believe their way can be the only right way. Just as they believe they are better than other species, more powerful and smart, they believe that what they think can't be wrong. I am a strong believer in my own faith myself, but the difference is that I take pleasure in that fact, rather than trying to prove other faiths wrong. It's just a pointless waste of time to do that, really. I'm all for open discussion but again, I think we should all be created equal and our beliefs treated the same.

By the way, I also loved Bowling for Columbine. Michael Moore is a smart man (and despite the tragedy in this world he gave me a good chuckle).

Thanks for all the replies, wow! It's really interesting. I hope we can keep this thread going for a while.

[nocturnaldreamr]

Originally posted by Dead Star
By the way, I also loved Bowling for Columbine
......as did i! i saw that movie about a month ago, and whoa.. it was shocking and really choked me up... to the point where you're about to cry, but no tears come.


this thread is so very interesting. it's sorta like religion class all over again. in religion we would get into huge analytical babblings about the world and the religious aspect of it's people.

i have been called an athiest before by many people, but the definition for it isn't me. athiestism (if thats how to spell that word to put it in that grammar-ed way) is, from what i learned, when you oppose all religions and don't believe in any of them..
i think i am agnostic. i don't follow any religions, but i don't oppose them either. whats right for other's isn't nessecarily right for me. i am happy the way i am living. i feel i have to learn through experiences and aquire my own theories, philosophies and knowledge, before i decide (if i do) what spiritual path to take......as for now, im free spirited and jumping in mud puddles...
=o)

[DeLani]

Ellie79 - while you are right that every person believes their own opinion is "right," not everyone necessarily believes that the opposite is "evil." Just read through this thread; how many here have said about one belief or another, "it's not what I believe, but I respect your belief in it." ?
While you can say that religion has made some very good people, I do believe that humans are by nature spiritual beings. We don't necessarily need organized religion to fill that need for spirituality, but we usually do. What is the problem, is monotheistic religions that indoctrinate (not educate - to educate is to open the mind and encourage thought) their followers that all other religions, gods, and practices are EVIL. And must be destroyed.
While it is very enlightened to respect other religions, and even small-minded ones, as just where each person is at their stage of evolution, you have to take into account the amount of political/social power these small minded cultists (I do call them a cult) have in American society (Southerners, back me up on this one). Every candidate for American president has to go on and on about how Christian he is, what church he goes to, etc. All the way down the governmental heirarchy to the school boards, which in most mid- to small-sized towns are almost totally filled with the Christian right. They crush dissent, they violate non-Christian's rights with impunity (how many jobs have I lost because I'm not a Christian?), and they work hard to put their religious beliefs into law, so that all must obey them.
So, in some instances, you can't just dismiss them as the fruitcakes that they are. Next thing you know, DHS will be knocking on your door to take your kids away, because some "neighbor" accused you of performing obscene Satanic rituals. It happens all the time. If you are going to be an out Tarot reader (at least in the Southern US), you are going to have to expect a lot of this kind of thing. Especially if you have kids.

[Tarot Sparrow]

I can't believe how much you've been put through where you live, DeLani. I know it's not just you; but I think you do have bad luck in that area! Perhaps people in certains areas of the country and all countries live lifestyles that cause them to oppose certain things more than others. I hope it's not like that in Idaho :D Where I'll be moving soon...I'm not sure what it's like where I live now (a small town in B.C.) because I don't really know any tarot readers here at all, not a single one (although my friend's mom had a deck of cards, she never used it) and I've never made it known that I am a tarot reader to anyone other than this friend (she's Wiccan), and of course my family knows to some degree and don't mind. But I imagine that there would be a lot of people here that would be opposed to such a thing if they knew (although that's mostly because I think most of the people in my town are complete jerks and very immature, that being most everyone in my old school and a lot of the adults and city council as well). My friend was often attacked for one reason or another, sometimes for being a witch. Hopefully things will be alright when I move. Although it isn't always so.

[Kosmos]

Well, there's already a LOT of reading on this thread, so let me just say that I identify.

[jmd]

With regards to the original question, I personally see Tarot as well grounded and established with a firm foundation in esoteric Christian Hermetic principles - irrespective as to how it may also have been accepted and modified by various other movements, whether religious or secular.

Why certain individuals tend to view the Tarot as incompatible with their particular religious view probably varies from place to place, and religious view to religious view.

It seems, however, that within Christianity at least, those with a more Protestant impulse may be more likely to initially dismiss Tarot.

With regards to the Catholic Church, I must admit that I have found some of the views expressed a little mystifying. Many important contributors to Tarot's development, and many of its users, are firm Catholics.

Amongst other Christian churches, there are many who undoubtedly either have no explicit position, or no antagonistic position, with regards Tarot. What they may have are particular views as to how and why they are used. Whether or not we agree with those views, of course, will depend as to where we stand in relation to stated or implied spiritual underpinnings.

It seems that, apart from Islam - with its explicit abhorence of depictions of human beings - no other particular populous religion has, without indirect cause, need to reject Tarot.

As for personal experience, I have yet to meet someone who can claim to legitimately show how and why Tarot should not be used by a member of their religion (again, except for Islam)... in the end, they seem to revert to no other than their own Divine ignorance which they mistake for, and presume to be, knowledge.

[purple_scorp]

Originally posted by jmd
As for personal experience, I have yet to meet someone who can claim to legitimately show how and why Tarot should not be used by a member of their religion (again, except for Islam)... in the end, they seem to revert to no other than their own Divine ignorance which they mistake for, and presume to be, knowledge.

jmd

your statement reminds me of a "revolving-door-discussion" that I seem to have with many different people about astrology. They seem totally ignorant about planets having an ability to be able to affect our lives, yet, when I ask them what control the tides, they always answer "the moon".

Religion vs Tarot, both are very personal things and should be nobody else's business but your own. Perspective is a wonderful thing, if it is not abused.

I do not consider myself a witch but it is interesting to note, from my personal experience, that a lot of people associate Tarot with Witchcraft. I guess some people are just more comfortable with pigeon-holing everybody in life.

I live in a small country town of about 300 people. A couple of friends started a small circle of light and one of the girls was really protective of her community persona. She wouldn't let us discuss any subjects in public and actually chastised me at one point for discussing my spirit guide at a non-circle gathering. Another friend was curious and had asked me some questions. So I was just offering my explanation.

It was just after I'd separated from my husband and my friend told me that discussing topics like that, if the wrong person heard, could be detrimental to the future custody of my children. My husband already knew all about my spirit guide anyway.

This same friend had told me at another time that she had been part of a church that did not accept anybody leaving. She had said that they used to pray that bad things would happen to those that left the church, so that they would, in desperation, return to the church again.

And on a final note, I am not married to my Tarot cards, or any other divinitory tool that I own. However, using these tools is kind of my religion. I believe and have faith in myself. My Aunty once tried to point that out to my step-father who is a Church Elder. He dismissed my beliefs and practices as a load of rubbish.

Yeah, ignorance is bliss!

Cheers

purple_scorp

[mj07]

My parents are Baptists (the New England variety), very devout (dad's a minister) and when I was growing up they were even more conservative than they are now. I was taught that playing cards were evil, as was rock music and anything else "secular". The reasoning I remember they gave against using cards was that they were designed by anti-christian person for some king in Europe (notice the ambiguity) and that the joker is supposed to represent Jesus. That's what I remember them telling me. Obviously Tarot is even worse since it's used for devination, which to their mind is directly from the devil and if you do it you're opening yourself up spiritually to become possessed by a demon.

I'm not sure what my parents current beliefs are, but I do know that they stand pretty firm in the idea that objects can be tools of evil. It's kind of weird, the idea that in-and-of-itself a piece of cardboard with a picture on it is dangerous and powerful enough that you could lose your soul!

Needless to say, my interest in Tarot is yet another thing I have to hide from my parents. I know they would completely flip if they found out (and this coming from a 39 yr old!)

[Imagemaker]

in-and-of-itself a piece of cardboard with a picture on it is dangerous and powerful enough that you could lose your soul!

And the irony is that for many of us, Tarot becomes a path by which we more clearly connect with our soul, when we couldn't with the rigid, conventional means pushed by fundamentalists.

And sometimes the kindest thing one can do for oneself and the conventional parents is just not bring up the subject--both sides have more peace of mind that way, since neither side's opinion will ever be changed.

[DesertHowler]

In my practice of healing, I use techniques that make tarot seem pretty tame in the eyes of some religious people. Two techniques are Reiki/pranic healing/energy medicine and shamanic journeying. To avoid religious conflict, I ascribe my methods to angels...angels have good publicity. I describe energy healing as angels working through me. Shamanic journeying is contacting angels (I don't mention some of my angels have foot-long fangs). I've found most people to be more comfortable with this explanation as it fits their world view much better. I find most people to be quite accepting if I pick my terminology carefully. They want to believe and as long as I don't present conflicts, things work OK.

Of course, my family doesn't count as they don't believe I can do such things as I'm not a religious person [Catholic family, so devout that they have had several virgin births].

I haven't done much with tarot in this respect though. I'm sure it can be made to fit, especially using some of the less recognizable and bizarre decks.

Works for me...

DesertHowler

[Imagemaker]

so devout that they have had several virgin births.

LOL! Well, that helps the AIDS crisis . . .

[Macavity]

"The Brethren believe all that is written is the word of God... The Bible is their one standard, and to that the constantly appeal. The know nothing about the acts of Parliament, articles of religion, catechisms, or rules drawn up. The Bible, and nothing but the Bible, is their guide."

Edward Crowley (1865 - Member of the Plymouth Brethren)

...and Father to a somewhat wayward Son? :D

Macavity

[mj07]

Originally posted by Macavity
"The Brethren believe all that is written is the word of God... The Bible is their one standard, and to that the constantly appeal. The know nothing about the acts of Parliament, articles of religion, catechisms, or rules drawn up. The Bible, and nothing but the Bible, is their guide."

Edward Crowley (1865 - Member of the Plymouth Brethren)

...and Father to a somewhat wayward Son? :D

Macavity
hee hee! somehow that makes me feel SO much better about being the daughter of a Baptist minister! maybe there's hope for me yet?? :D

[Phoenyx*]

I had an experience yesterday, that has sort of scared me for my decks. My mom, who is normally okay about my decks, suddenly said they were evil. And with her ultra-conservative husband moving back in, this has me worried for my decks, especially since I live with them. Right now, I'm trying to get together a listing of all the "occult" books and decks I have, and try to find a hiding space for them that is still within the house.

*sighs* I hate to have to do this, especially when I thought everything was okay.

[Tarot Sparrow]

Originally posted by Triquetra
I had an experience yesterday, that has sort of scared me for my decks. My mom, who is normally okay about my decks, suddenly said they were evil. And with her ultra-conservative husband moving back in, this has me worried for my decks, especially since I live with them. Right now, I'm trying to get together a listing of all the "occult" books and decks I have, and try to find a hiding space for them that is still within the house.

*sighs* I hate to have to do this, especially when I thought everything was okay.

I'm sorry to hear that Triquetra. Maybe you could try to explain to her why tarot can't be evil? Even if she doesn't listen, at least you tried..

[retrokat]

As mentioned earlier by JMD, many of the founders of early tarot were also staunch Catholics (even families whose members included popes!). I'm not a Christian myself, but I found Christian symbolism very important when developing my own tarot deck.

There are legends and archetypes that have universal attraction, that are part of our (Western) combined cultural memory - some of these symbols appeared in decks such as RWS and Marseilles, and I brought in more elements into play as well when I was constructing my deck. St Francis of Assisi, the Garden of Eden, God Creating the Animals, the Nativity etc - you don't have to be a Christian for these stories, whether you believe them to be literal or metaphorical, to have resonance.

I hope that the Christian iconography that I've used helps Christians to use the deck in a way that feels right for them (say, for contemplation and prayer). For the rest of us, it's an acknowledgment of the part these symbols play in the development of modern society, regardless of our personal religious beliefs.

In regards to Islam, hmmm... perhaps I should try making a deck without people in it? I like a challenge!

[Imagemaker]

In regards to Islam, hmmm... perhaps I should try making a deck without people in it?

Would this also mean that the deck couldn't have a hand, as in the Aces, or any body parts?

I can see how the essence of many cards could be depicted with an object only--tower hit by lightening, broken swords--but there is a sense of action that is lost when the human element is removed.

A worthy challenge!

[Alissa]

My Islamic understanding is certainly incomplete, but I believe it is forbidden to reproduce any of the natural creatures in Allah's world, not just humans.

Therefore, representations of animals and possibly even plants and flowers, would also be off limits in a strictly Islamic illustratated deck.

Talk about a challenge... that would be a tough deck to create.

[Imagemaker]

And I can see how any form of illustration of objects could be interpreted as showing a face or another "shape" and susceptible to condemnation.

Perhaps a "keywords only" Islamic Tarot?

[DewDrop]

Originally posted by Triquetra
I had an experience yesterday, that has sort of scared me for my decks. My mom, who is normally okay about my decks, suddenly said they were evil. And with her ultra-conservative husband moving back in, this has me worried for my decks, especially since I live with them. Right now, I'm trying to get together a listing of all the "occult" books and decks I have, and try to find a hiding space for them that is still within the house.

*sighs* I hate to have to do this, especially when I thought everything was okay.

I know a drastic way of protecting your things, but as i said it is drastic; you can buy some kind of box with a lock, it can be wood, metall or any kind of material that you find in your liking. It should not be a small box becaus that draws the attention and makes realy no change.
Get a big one; for exsampel there is these big ones of wood with metal edges that the sailors used in old times and the newmerried had their stuff in, they usually have a big lock with a big black key. U can use it as a table in your room with a tablecloth over. Your mother would hopefully like the table and not think more about whats in it.
And in extreme cases if they throw it out the window or try to burn it up, your thing will not get hurt and ofcours be perfectly safe.

[Tarot Sparrow]

Originally posted by Ellie79
I know a drastic way of protecting your things, but as i said it is drastic; you can buy some kind of box with a lock, it can be wood, metall or any kind of material that you find in your liking. It should not be a small box becaus that draws the attention and makes realy no change.
Get a big one; for exsampel there is these big ones of wood with metal edges that the sailors used in old times and the newmerried had their stuff in, they usually have a big lock with a big black key. U can use it as a table in your room with a tablecloth over. Your mother would hopefully like the table and not think more about whats in it.
And in extreme cases if they throw it out the window or try to burn it up, your thing will not get hurt and ofcours be perfectly safe.

Hey, good idea! :D I mean, if you need it.

[Nevada]

Dead Star,

I used to sell some products related to astrology at a swap meet (flea market), and I recall many people coming up and trying to "save" us, sometimes in groups. They were mostly young adults with a sort of glazed over look in their eyes that indicated to me they were pretty much brainwashed to behave this way. In any case, it's rude. It has less to do with religion than it does with intolerance. Yes, it's a little frightening, because when carried to extreme this kind of sentiment can result in abuse (of the sort Indigo Rose mentions against her father), violence or hate crimes, and even terrorism and war. But it's not just a Christian thing. It's bigotry, and it's global in occurrence. It's based on fear and lack of independent thinking. These are for the most part people who quite sadly are not thinking through their religion, but are blindly following a fear-based dogma that others are feeding them. Very sad, but really more sad for them than for you. You have the clearsightedness to question and to find the path that's right for you.

((((Indigo Rose))))
So sorry to hear about your dad's passing.

Nevada

[nina]

Hello,
Consolations to Indigo Rose and thanks for putting in some compassionate words so we Christians don't all look like the Grand Inquisitor.
I think it is such a difficult and lifelong struggle to live life as a Christian that if you are really applying yourself to it you don't have the time or the pride to point fingers at anyone else for their efforts at finding truth.
I have encountered condemnation from some scientist friends of mine for my religious beliefs- sometimes outright and very insensitive ridicule- and I dread any of them ever discovering my interest in tarot. They wouldn't call me damned, just stupid and irrational.
At least we all have an open safe haven for discussion here.
-nina

[Tarot Sparrow]

Originally posted by Nevada
Dead Star,

I used to sell some products related to astrology at a swap meet (flea market), and I recall many people coming up and trying to "save" us, sometimes in groups. They were mostly young adults with a sort of glazed over look in their eyes that indicated to me they were pretty much brainwashed to behave this way. In any case, it's rude. It has less to do with religion than it does with intolerance. Yes, it's a little frightening, because when carried to extreme this kind of sentiment can result in abuse (of the sort Indigo Rose mentions against her father), violence or hate crimes, and even terrorism and war. But it's not just a Christian thing. It's bigotry, and it's global in occurrence. It's based on fear and lack of independent thinking. These are for the most part people who quite sadly are not thinking through their religion, but are blindly following a fear-based dogma that others are feeding them. Very sad, but really more sad for them than for you. You have the clearsightedness to question and to find the path that's right for you.

Thanks for that, Nevada. It certainly isn't just a Christian thing, nor just a religious thing for that matter. And you're right, it is more about intolerance than anything else. I do indeed feel sorry for those sorts of people, I just wish I was able to pity them without them bothering me :laugh:

[inanna_tarot]

Hmm just wondering, are there any christian denominations that are actually okay with the idea of tarot?

Very interesting thread btw! Normally i skip threads like these, glad i found it :)


Sezo
x

[Jeanette]

From a book, "Instructions in the Catholic Faith" c. 1976, rev'd. 1980: Lesson 43, the 1st Commandment, names superstition, faith healers, astrology, palmistry, crystal gazing, ouija boards, spiritualism a/or spiritism, dreams, fortunetelling and the like and these are all considered sins (among many, many other things). I think these are listed as sins because it is giving adoration to others besides God and that only God can know things of the future. I guess the concern is that if people go around predicting things happening in the future (that only God can know) and then it happens, then that person has powers that only God has. Or that person is in danger of thinking they are God-like.

I'm just interpreting this book. I don't think of myself as having powers that are God-like or otherwise when I read tarot cards. I think the tarot cards are a wonderful tool to help analyze relationships in life, situations we deal with, and whatever is on our minds that causes concern. I might add that this book encourages marriage to the point if a woman is married to an abusive, alcoholic, adulterer and whatever else he may be, she should STAY MARRIED because divorce is WRONG. This book is something else, I keep it around for shock value!

In my personal life, tarot cards have brought me closer to God by showing me how everything in life has meaning and value, and that there is good sometimes even in bad situations.

[Tarot Sparrow]

I might add that this book encourages marriage to the point if a woman is married to an abusive, alcoholic, adulterer and whatever else he may be, she should STAY MARRIED because divorce is WRONG. This book is something else, I keep it around for shock value!

Yikes! That's a little extreme...

[Khatruman]

Originally posted by Nevada

I used to sell some products related to astrology at a swap meet (flea market), and I recall many people coming up and trying to "save" us, sometimes in groups. They were mostly young adults with a sort of glazed over look in their eyes that indicated to me they were pretty much brainwashed to behave this way. That's what I think bothers me most with much of the religious fanaticism: people being trained not to think for themselves. One of the most difficult jobs I have as an educator of high school students is getting them to open their minds to new possibilities, to see things in a new light, critically analyze and assess them. When fanatics "argue" their point, they do it through canned lines, quoted scripture, etc. and are told they shouldn't question, they need to accept it all as the leaders say it is, or else they risk the devil swaying their point of view. It thus becomes useless to argue since the very act of you arguing reinforces their training that it is the work of the Devil.

Though I only have a passing knowledge of Judaism, one of my observations on the Jewish faith is that the young are taught to think, to question, to understand rather than memorize. I cannot offhand remember what it is called, but there is even a tradition of Hebrew scripture which is creative storytelling, where holy persons actually rewrite or expand upon scripture story. In this way, it becomes a living thing, rather than an aloof body of words that must be untainted.

It is a shame to see a young mind shut down.

[Tarot Sparrow]

Originally posted by Khatruman
That's what I think bothers me most with much of the religious fanaticism: people being trained not to think for themselves. One of the most difficult jobs I have as an educator of high school students is getting them to open their minds to new possibilities, to see things in a new light, critically analyze and assess them. When fanatics "argue" their point, they do it through canned lines, quoted scripture, etc. and are told they shouldn't question, they need to accept it all as the leaders say it is, or else they risk the devil swaying their point of view. It thus becomes useless to argue since the very act of you arguing reinforces their training that it is the work of the Devil.

Though I only have a passing knowledge of Judaism, one of my observations on the Jewish faith is that the young are taught to think, to question, to understand rather than memorize. I cannot offhand remember what it is called, but there is even a tradition of Hebrew scripture which is creative storytelling, where holy persons actually rewrite or expand upon scripture story. In this way, it becomes a living thing, rather than an aloof body of words that must be untainted.

It is a shame to see a young mind shut down.

That's very interesting Khatruman. This is probably one of the reasons why Christianity never worked for me. Too many rules, to the point where it can seem overly-demanding and less giving. At least that's how I came to feel about it. I know there are plenty of Christians who read tarot and can find a place in their religious beliefs for it, and I commend them for that. But for the people who are essentially brainwashed into thinking there's only one right path and if they don't follow it, they're doomed, it's just sad and I don't think any religious group should have a right to convince people that they should not think for themselves or question or wonder. How can anyone be truly happy or spiritually fulfilled that way?

[Agathe]

Hi everyone,

What I hate most is preaching. I have a friend with whom I was very close few years ago. Our close freindship died when she became literally obsessed with religion. She stareted preaching me about my relationship and when I told her about my interest in Tarot she only said that she wished I hadn't told her that. There are some people I know that have no idea about me using Tarot. I just do not feel like listening to them preaching me how unbelievably evil it is for me.
Every single fortuneteller I know in Poland believes in God and goes to pray in church. I do it as well and like I said in one of the earlier threads Tarot brought me closer to God.
So, Dead Star, I think I would do exactly the same thing as you did. I would just hung up on such person, even though it's kind of rude.

Blessings,
Agata

[inanna_tarot]

in a way, i guess its like when people talk to you online.
Normally i get some wacko wanting to save my soul - and when you cant put them straight you block them/ignore them whatever. So hanging up is the same really (though abit more personal its more direct) , but these people have to understand that one works for them isnt the same for everyone else!

Im so glad to see other Christians here embrace tarot and arent so blind as them lot! A classic line i say when people look at me funny for learning astrology is ..
Sir, i have studied it, you have not - Issac Newton!!!
If one of the founding fathers of modern science was openminded, then everyone else should at least try to be!

well its something like that anyways - shuts em up!

Sezo
x

[Badturtle]

Originally posted by Indigo Rose
The truth in all of this is that humans are egocentric. No matter what our belief systems are everyone thinks their own ideas are correct. It is only by choosing to evolve and open our minds, that we can begin to respect other people's beliefs.

From the Avatar Course exploring that I have done, I've come to understand that not only do we think our own beliefs are correct, we each truly only exprience that which we personally believe.

I feel fortunate to have evolved a personal cosmology that allows me to easily believe in God & spirituality as well as to appreciate the many tools of spirituality including tarot, faeries, runes, angel cards, etc. At the same time, as Indigo Rose has hit upon, as I deepen my ability to sheerly appreciate other points of view, I find that my own is received compassionately as well. Along those same lines, I've discovered many friends who are deeply religious yet practicing tarotists.

My suggestion is to stay encouraged and realize that everything we deal with reflects our own personal opportunities for growth. Happy exploring!

[Tarot Sparrow]

Agathe - Thank you. I don't like hanging up on anyone, but after evaluating the situation in my mind I figured what they were doing was more rude than what I was about to do. Especially after I had just apologized and told them I'd try the other bookstore and was about to get off the phone when they butted in.

Inanna_tarot - Great line! :D

Badturtle - Definitely. No one wants to have this kind of experience but it's inevitable, so we might as well take it as a learning experience and try not to let it get to us.

[thanatos]

the first and last experiance that I had in regardes to religion V taort was after I had a relationship breakup

I was serching for answeres and felt that the "church" was not provideing me with the nessesery answeres that I was after so I turned to what they refer to as the occolt

the taror reading that I was given helped me to under stand the situation better and enabled me to cope with it better

[Tarot Sparrow]

Originally posted by thanatos
the first and last experiance that I had in regardes to religion V taort was after I had a relationship breakup

I was serching for answeres and felt that the "church" was not provideing me with the nessesery answeres that I was after so I turned to what they refer to as the occolt

the taror reading that I was given helped me to under stand the situation better and enabled me to cope with it better

This is what I don't understand about religion. Everyone chooses their own path, the one that works best for them. How can any religion condemn those who can help a person better than they can? They can't expect their beliefs to be right for everyone, and it just seems to me that since most religions are for inspiring people and bringing out the best in them and helping them, we should all be able to accept the fact that some people are happier elsewhere. Isn't that what's most important? It's as though people have simply lost their way...

[Glass Owl]

Yes, we get that sort of thing all the time here in the Bible Belt. And I think it's getting worse, more virulent, with Bush II in office. (Seriously - holy war type stuff).
I've been beat up at school, told I couldn't silently meditate on the cards in the library (though vocally praying to the Hebrew/Christian god was OK), and even had parents sign a petition to get me kicked out of a middle school because I was a Witch! (which I am - and how did they find out? Someone broke into my locker and found my Tarot cards! Did they get in trouble for stealing? No...)
I did an interview with the local news station about Wicca on Halloween (of course), and part of the interview dealt with the Tarot (I of course pointed out that you don't have to be a Witch to use the Tarot, and pointed out all the Christian symbolism, etc...). While the segment that was aired was pretty good, it had to start off with comments from "the other side of the aisle" - they actually had a Catholic priest on talking about how Wicca is Satanism! Now would they have done that if they were interviewing a Jew about Hannukah?
These types of Christians are so pushy - they have no regard for freedom of religion, or even common respect for other people's beliefs. They want the world to do as they do, and are not above using violence to enforce their beliefs.

Speaking of the Bible Belt, a few month ago there was a problem with Tarot readers holding Pyschic Fairs at a Florida Books-A-Million due to complains from a local Fundamentalist Christian group. The Fairs are cancelled now :(


For over five years our local Books-a-Million store (store #781 at 9570 US Highway 19 North in Port Richey, FL 34668) has supported a small local group. Every month, on the second Saturday of the month, they have hosted a Psychic Fair at the Joe Muggs’ Café in the Books-a-Million bookstore. The Psychic Fair offers Tarot readings for interested people.

This is not only a community service to the Port Richey area, but a place for those persons with an interest in New Age or Metaphysical topics to come together, talk, commune and buy new books. Five years ago one psychic reader began the Psychic Fair with a reading here and there throughout the day; now six readers cannot keep up with the demand. The readers are constantly busy from Noon to five o’clock, bringing many regulars back month after month. This fair has really built a sense of community in this area.

On Friday evening, October 13, 2006, the host of the Psychic Fair received a phone call from Alexis Brown, the store manager of this particular Books-a-Million, telling the host that she could no longer host the Psychic Fair which was scheduled to take place just hours later (the following morning, Saturday, October 14, 2006).

Allegedly, Books-a-Million corporate had received over 150 letters of complaint from a local Christian Fundamentalist group who had just become aware of the Psychic Fair; and, after five years, Alexis had been instructed by corporate to not allow it to continue.

If this was truly the case, she could have had the common courtesy to let the event coordinator know a few days in advance, not less than 18 hours in advance, so that an alternate location could be obtained and the Psychic Fair participants could be notified. Instead, the manager called late Friday evening, telling the coordinator she could not show up the next morning! Not only was this spiteful, rude and inconsiderate, it was downright disrespectful to the fair’s coordinators and many of Books-a-Millions’ customers. Many dollars had been spent advertising this event and half a dozen readers were booked to show up for readings. Dozens, if not hundreds of patrons of the psychic fair (also potential book-buyers and café patrons) were planning on attending this event.

To read the whole thing, here is the link:
http://www.petitiononline.com/counter2/petition.html

[rebecca-smiles]

I think that this is terrible behaviour given the strong focus these days on religious tolerance. It is as though Paganism and its close fellows are some how exempt from all of this!

I'm not just saying this with respect to Christianity which has a long history of conflict with paganism/wicca/etc, but the general ignorance towards it from secular authorities. The reason that we have secular intitutions is to enable freedom. Yet they flout the tolerance they feel obliged to give Islam, Judaism, Buddhism, Sikhism but when it comes to this particular minority...none of these would be acceptably called satanism or entirly fictitous statements made about them with such conviction.

I am agnostic and not affiliated with paganism, but grew up as one. It still gob-smacks me when i tell people this and they say i am a satanic devil worshiper. or that means i'm a witch. or i do spells (i never was into magic). I politely tell them no, and explain "it's more nature worship, or more acurately veneration. You don't have to be a witch to be pagan. I don't believe in the devil. The morality may not be preached in a gospel but is inherent in the philosophy" etc. but sometimes i am still met with "No, you DO do magic and of course you are a witch, my *whoever* has told me all about it. he/she is an expert".

It is high time that the profile of wicca and pagansim were raised to Wicca and Paganism. The minority factor shouldn't exclude their beliefs from serious interfaith and religious tolerance dialogue;.

[ilweran]

It is high time that the profile of wicca and pagansim were raised to Wicca and Paganism. The minority factor shouldn't exclude their beliefs from serious interfaith and religious tolerance dialogue;.

I strongly agree. I was very angry that the Archbishop of Canterbury, Rowan Williams, a few years ago apparently descibed druids as 'pot-smoking layabouts'. Great way to build up an interfaith dialogue.