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TheoMo
04-04-2004, 06:15
I was just flipping through my RW deck and noticed how similar the the horses and position of the riders are on the Knight of Cups and Death cards. It's as if the Knight of Cups lost his blue trappings and wings on his feet and helmet and traded his cup in for a big black flag! Both horses are looking forward, with their right legs moving forward. Even the background is somewhat similar, with a flowing river in the back.

Anyway just thought it was interesting.

Centaur
04-04-2004, 10:01
Interesting observation. I never saw this until you mentioned it!

I see the Death card as representing the death of the old, and the birth of the new. In that sense, one might see the Knight of Cups as a creative soul, thriving with life. In the Death card we might think of him as having shed his old creativity, etc, and as about to be reborn?

Centaur

TheoMo
04-04-2004, 11:37
What first brought my attention was the horse - all the other horses are drawn so differently, it just seemed odd that these two are so similiarly depicted.

Centaur
04-04-2004, 20:29
Originally posted by TheoMo
What first brought my attention was the horse - all the other horses are drawn so differently, it just seemed odd that these two are so similiarly depicted.

I agree. It is very odd. Also, the background scene does seem to be quite similar, what with the river, etc. I wonder if anyone else might shed some light on this?

Centaur

WalesWoman
05-04-2004, 02:50
Me and Rachel Pollack, seems like I'm constantly referring to her, but in Seventy Eight Degrees of Wisdom, she has both pictures for Death and Knight of Cups in the discussion and description of the Knight. For all that, she doesn't have much to say about that except "he resembles Death, symbol of Transformation," and this about the conflicts of the Knight.

Basically this Knight is full of conflicts, between his committment to action and involvement of his questing nature and the passivity of water, his inexperience and undeveloped state. He has a hard time reconciling this contrast, so if the passive side denies his committments, he never allows his imagination to produce anything. His helmet and feet are winged, but his horse is slow.
The Death connection is following a genuine vision rather than escapism to transform himself by going deep with in to resolve his inner conflicts. It could be "the precise moment at which we give up the old masks and allow the transformation to take place" I couldn't find any reference in the Death description, but was struck by the similarity of terms, "lethargy" in Death and "passive" for Cups, refering to a desparate battle of the ego to avoid change (or in the case of the Knight) committments. The river might be "the unity of change and eternity" So this card could mean it's time to take on responsibility and grow into our adulthood, become more mature and make something of ourselves.

lark
05-04-2004, 03:44
Maybe the Knight of Cups is Death as a young man?

Centaur
05-04-2004, 05:49
Thanks for the information WalesWoman... I like Rachel Pollack's take on the tarot.

Lark, I agree that it does seem as though the Knight of Cups is Death as a young man. It is almost as though the people kneeling infront of Mr Death might be some of the individuals that the Knight of Cups in his younger guise may have come across in his earthly-life.

Centaur

mysticalowl
05-04-2004, 08:48
I think many of the cards have shared imagery and experiences if you look carefully enough for it. The threads that tie our lives together are so closely woven that at times it is hard to determine which one you are looking at.

:)

paradoxx
05-04-2004, 11:06
The connection is even simpler, both the Death Card and the knight of cups both represent the zodiac sign of Scorpio.

the knight of Cups horse looks as though he is dying of thirst.

lunalafey
05-04-2004, 11:12
Originally posted by lark
Maybe the Knight of Cups is Death as a young man?

Interesting, and quite fitting. Think about who Death must be as an individual. He needs to be strong, for the emotions of humans may interfear with his duty. He must be merciful, taking lives before thier time, because it's just the better thing to do.
A being of Love, sympathy and strength.

TemperanceAngel
06-04-2004, 09:21
Originally posted by lark
Maybe the Knight of Cups is Death as a young man?
Lark, I really like that!!!

I always think of the Knight of Cups as following your heart, dreams, ambitions.....
XTAX

TemperanceAngel
06-04-2004, 09:54
Just to add, I really like it when someones post stays in your head...Death is quite often not a physical death, so the Knight of Cups as Death as a young man could easily be seen as the emotional content of a death.

Does this make sense? Have I explained myself properly?

What happened to Vincent and Mac22, they really spiced up the RWS discussions, I miss them....

XTAX

TemperanceAngel
06-04-2004, 09:56
Originally posted by lunalafey
Interesting, and quite fitting. Think about who Death must be as an individual. He needs to be strong, for the emotions of humans may interfear with his duty. He must be merciful, taking lives before thier time, because it's just the better thing to do.
A being of Love, sympathy and strength.
luna, I just re-read your post properly and I think maybe we are along the same train of thought here....
XTAX

jema
06-04-2004, 14:47
Of course I have a naughty mind at times, perhaps the Knight of cups is the giver of "small deaths"
;-)

lunalafey
06-04-2004, 15:36
Originally posted by jema
Of course I have a naughty mind at times, perhaps the Knight of cups is the giver of "small deaths"
;-)

ROFL!

lark
07-04-2004, 01:20
Originally posted by jema
Of course I have a naughty mind at times, perhaps the Knight of cups is the giver of "small deaths"
;-)
Yup he did that just for practice.
Then when he grew up, he got into the big time stuff...
Death with a capitol "D"

In my notebook my two keywords for the Knight of Cups upright are Lover and Desire.
So your naughty little suggestion fits in very nicely with how I've always seen him.
Of course he means others things to but I always start there.

Lilly
12-11-2004, 16:37
Hi all,

I just wanted to share these ideas, but know, please, that these ideas represent how the cards speak to me, so you may not see them the same as I, so, with that in mind, here's my contribution to this thread. :)

Knight of Cups
Cups is represents Water -- It's zodialogical signs are Cancer, Scorpio and Pisces.

The energy of water is flowing and various intangibles play a large part in the energy of water. It's an element of deep emotion that can range from the exteme compassion to self-pity.

Water respresents the dreamers, mystics, artists and anyone who is in touch with the deeper dimensions and people who tend to need time alone in the inner realm.

The Knight, as in all suits, is a messenger, and he carries the news of some immediate importance. In the case of the Knight of Cups, its' most likely to be news related to emotional or spiritual issue, something is about to change emotionally and there is an air of expectancy regarding his message; perhaps the person for whom the card is selected it's a marriage proposal, or promotion at work or something.

Incidently, the Swords is similar to Cups in the sense that Swords is related to the emotions and (the Knight of ) an approaching difference of opinion with someone close to the reader, either a business partner or lover, brother or sister or spouse or parent.

Here are two suits related to the intangible, water (Cups) and air (Swords) and they are both on white horses! Death, too, is on a white horse! ... and ...

And of course, card 13 powerfully suggests a putting away of the old. Something deep and personal or emotional is about to be turned away. Superficial changes won't get the job done. (Note the King lying dead beneath the horse -- suggestion, the end of established or previous authority)

The Death card is related to Scorpio, which is the ruler of life's ultimate mysteries including, I guess, sex, death (the end of past authority, law, tradition) rebirth and regeneration (the rising sun and its growing energy).

Another note, in each of the knight cards you see only what each suit is related to: that is to say, Swords, an air sign, shows blowing winds; Wands, a fire sign, shows a wand being held like a lance, although I'm not sure how the element of fire is represented here, unless it's in the fact that the horse is the same color as the wand; Pentacles, an earth sign, shows a plowed earth in the background, and Cups, a water sign, has the river.

I believe that all four suits are represented in the number 13 card, since it's message applies to everyone eventually, although I can't exactly tell you how they are all represented ... I'd like to see if anyone else see's all four suits represented on this card.

So, did the Knight of Wands grow up an move into the majors from the minors? I doubt that. If the knight "grows up" to be anything, he would the King of the suit where he served as knight. Death was never a knight, or anything else for that matter, it has just always been, and will always be. The only real constant in the universe is change.

This is my first post on this forum, although I've been reading and learning for some time, now.

Peace to you all.

Lilly

cutiecutie
30-11-2004, 14:11
this is an interesting thread. just thought I would mention that I got the
Knight of Cups and Death cards after asking if someone would contact me soon.

Dstar
30-11-2004, 22:13
Sorry to be a party pooper :) but I don't see that much similarity between the two cards. The important thing to note about the horse's posture in these cards is it's head, and there is a clear difference in these two. There is also a big difference in the posture of the knight and Death, the knight is clearly stiff and self absorbed or 'blinkered' in the picture...Death rides much more easy and confident, almost standing on the stirrups, and Death seems completely aware of the surroundings, unlike the Knight.

There is a river in both cards, but there is a river flowing through many of the cards...perhaps the same one...that carries us through life and beyond. Interestingly, the Knight of cups looks as though he is about to cross that river...or will he stop and perhaps fill, or empty his cup? Or perhaps his orientation at a right angle to the river shows that, for the moment, he is removed from the flow, pausing, lost in thought, or too concerned about the water in his own cup? Death though, matches the flow of that river...marching slowly but confidently, as it does, not stopping, swallowing all in the path.

Sorry, it's only my opinion...but they seem quite different. I think perhaps there is a similarity in the 'steadiness' of the horses.

Great topic though, it's good to look for these aspects, and perhaps you are right...and I haven't seen it yet.

D.

Vincent
01-12-2004, 08:39
Sorry to be a party pooper :) but I don't see that much similarity between the two cards.

I can see the similarity, but whether the similarity has any intended occult significance, is something else. The divinatory meaning for the Knight of Cups is given as; Arrival, approach--sometimes that of a messenger... which does have a kind of grim similarity with Death.

But, as someone mentioned in the Hermit and Moon thread, artists have their own favourite images they might use in different works. Just like a guitarist will use the same riff in different songs.

Many people have noticed the similarity between these two cards, and Durer's painting of 'Knight, Death, and the Devil' which you can see here;
http://www.msjc.edu/art/djohnson/art100/100lecture8.html

It's interesting to note the parallel between the Christian Knight, (in Durer's engraving), ignoring Death and the Devil as he travels on the road, doing God's work, and Death, (in Waite's card), ignoring royalty, priesthood, women and children as he also goes about God's business.




Vincent

Scion
01-12-2004, 15:16
The divinatory meaning for the Knight of Cups is given as; Arrival, approach--sometimes that of a messenger... which does have a kind of grim similarity with Death.
...
It's interesting to note the parallel between the Christian Knight, (in Durer's engraving), ignoring Death and the Devil as he travels on the road, doing God's work, and Death, (in Waite's card), ignoring royalty, priesthood, women and children as he also goes about God's business. Vincent

Have noticed this similarity in the past, and commented on it when they pop up together in readings.

The combination always makes me think of a quote from Strauss' Salome: "The secret of love is greater than the secret of death." This can be read two ways: either that love is more powerful that Death or that Love's power is more hidden than Death's.

...There's also something about both being messengers that are ineluctable and actively passive. Their similarities might be a reminder to avoid the cookie cutter readings of death/bad, emotions/good. They are almost sides of a coin; the arrival of love can be as ferocious and terrible as death and death can be as gentle and transformative as love.

Dstar
01-12-2004, 22:13
Yes, the similarity between the RW 'Death' card and Durer's engraving of 'Knight, Death, and the Devil' is no coincidence.

It's no secret that the Waite/Smith Death card is based on Durer's engraving, but I hadn't looked at Durer's engraving for myself until now. Straight away I could see there was a massive similarity...too much... I'm an artist myself, and could see that these two images were related in a big way.

So I copied the image from Vincent's link, and using photoshop, laid a digital image of the Death card over the top of it...adjusted the transparency so I could see the two images together...and waddaya know!!!. I was very excited to find that the two images match perfectly. The Knight and Death, and the horses, match absolutley 100% in both proportion and posture (or as near 100% as needed to show this is a copy). Every detail, even Death's helmet is an exact match of the Knight's as far as it's proportions go...the shape has been altered a little, but the proportion of it, and the near perfect match of the visor, leave no doubt in my mind that this is a copy rather than just an influence.

Obviously some details were changed and some slight adjustments made, but clearly Durer's engraving was used for more than influence. The Death card is a perfect copy, using Durer's as a base to get everything in proportion...almost as though traced.

So I went on to look at Durer's other works... looking for other influence on Smith's cards. Durer created a massive amount of Paintings and graphics, it would take an age to trawl through the detail in all of them. I found these two paintings look very much like they influenced Smith's Emporer - http://www.abcgallery.com/D/durer/durer44.html

Fantastic topic this....

D.

CreativeFire
02-12-2004, 19:20
So I went on to look at Durer's other works... looking for other influence on Smith's cards. Durer created a massive amount of Paintings and graphics, it would take an age to trawl through the detail in all of them. I found these two paintings look very much like they influenced Smith's Emporer - http://www.abcgallery.com/D/durer/durer44.html

Fantastic topic this....

D.

Very interesting thread to read through, in particular regarding the influence of Durer's works and the images in the RWS.

Dstar, with the link you have posted for the Emperor, I also immediately noticed an image element from the Thoth Emperor as well in the painting on the right - the two headed eagle, which can be seen on a shield at the feet of the Thoth Emperor. I know this is the RWS Forum but I just couldn't help mentioning it - and it makes me think that Durer's paintings may have influenced more than just Colman-Smith perhaps. I have attached a scan of the Thoth Emperor below.

CreativeFire

ArcanoMáximo
26-04-2005, 03:42
then the Knigth of Cup may be Joe Black from the Brad Pitt movie, obsessed for eat the delicious peanut marmalade just like a little boy? Forgiving his work for some little time? Sounds like a good clarifying image!
Am*