View Full Version : Tarot - Cosmic Joke or Sustainable Truth?
Moongold
17-04-2004, 20:06
There are posts throughout Aeclectic about intuition and what it means. We listen carefully and politely to the experience and thoughts of people, and often let them go unchallenged in their beliefs. Is it enough to simply accept uncritically what people say in tarot readings? Sometimes I think there is just a little bit of desired reality and people grasp at that whilst ignoring all other signals that this may in fact be “non-sense”.
In readings it is human to misperceive some random “hits” and to see patterns where there are none. It is human to focus on the random hit and to ignore all other information which might be saying “Hey No. This is non-sense”. It is human to attribute magical, intuitive powers to particular individuals because we want to believe that someone has the answers.
Does the power of Tarot lie in the simple reality that sometimes we want the loving attention of a reading, the affirming experience that someone is focusing for a time simply on us? And do those who read simply have an unconscious need for meaning and power themselves?
Has anyone carried out an objective study on the reading of tarot? . Has there been any work done to see what actually happened during the readings themselves and in the attribution of meaning by the recipient? Has there been any analysis of the outcome of tarot readings?
Are our senses deluded by these wonderful coloured images and the myths they represent? Are these images like spiritual slot machines, lulling people into a false sense of security and hope?
And is the Fool truly the Great Joker?
Hi Moongold, I think you raise some excellent points, but I honestly don't see how an objective study on the reading of tarot could be carried out. Everything is so arbitrary and subjective. How would you decide whether a description or prediction given by the reader was a hit or not? It would all come down to a subjective judgment by whoever was judging the reading. A comment made by a tarot reader might be true (or false) on one or more of so many different levels.
You might judge it by whether the client thinks a statement is a hit or a miss. But the client might think a specific statement was a miss when that statement might be true on a different level than the client was thinking of.
I'm not saying that your reading-as-wish-fulfillment scenario is necessarily false. I guess what I'm saying is that what you describe is one way of looking at a complex occurrence (i.e., a reading). Another way to look at it is that the reader is being divinely inspired to give correct answers. Many people would have a viewpoint that falls somewhere in the middle between those two extremes.
I don't think it's possible to definitively say that one of these viewpoints is true and the others false. They're just the human mind's imperfect attempts to make sense of a complex event. I think which viewpoint one chooses to accept has more to do with one's personality, rather than with perceiving an objective truth.
-- Lee
WalesWoman
18-04-2004, 01:10
These are great concepts, I've often wondered this myself, especially if I've be overreading a situation. Perception based on personality predujices our interpretations, it also makes me slant readings as positively as possible I think or get too negative if it's something I might not think is too cool. The only way to "know" is get feedback from experience, a lot of times I can understand the cards themselves but am not sure how it applies to someone I'm reading for, especially if I was just given a question, with no other information. It's much easier when I have some background, an idea of what is going on in the person's life, then things start making a lot more sense.
Another things that's made me wonder is how much behavior is altered after having a reading based on the new insights and information, would you have done the same things if you hadn't have had the advice or insights into a question? This makes me most nervous about reading for other people, will they just take my word for it and go do something dumb because the Tarot said something. Sometimes it's a warning not to do something or to change a way of looking at something. Gee, what if there was an emotional situation due to some change and instead of seeing that, the reader says hey I think you or your spouce is unfaithful, because the Queen of Cups came up reversed or something like that. You could cause a divorce or something if they were the least bit insecure. I think if I ever start doing readings for people not on the forum, I will have some sign that says this is just for another way of looking at the situation, I am only human and fallible. What they do once they leave the reading is their responsibility. The main thing is to be responsible with what comes out of my mouth in the first place.
Another freind and I send each other our readings for comparison, we always have a different way of looking at the cards and it's always interesting to see how they can apply just as well to different situations going on in a person's life at the same time. So what is the true meaning then? All you can do is stay tuned and find out.
The closest thing to a study would be for readers to keep their journal/logs and update them, document the feed back from their readings, keep a regular journal and compare the entries with past readings and see what turns up. Is it like buying a Green Explorer and suddenly noticing there are about a jillion of them you'd never noticed before? Does Tarot create expectations that we then fulfill?
firemaiden
18-04-2004, 04:42
I think a reading is whatever you want it to be, whatever you make of it, whatever you put in to it.
--The cards can just be an excuse, a platform to say what you were going to say any way, and depending upon how wise and perceptive you are to begin with this could be very interesting, or not at all......
--or they can be a scrying tool, and depending at how adept the reader is at magic, tapping into exterior energies, telepathy, astral travel, and seeing -- they can be a very magical tool indeed.
--You can use them for mere brainstorming -- for the host of associations which flow from putting different pictures together,
--or as a as a mind-altering magical stimulus for opening different channels in the brain,
--or you can use them to simply randomly isolate different paragraphs in a pre-written book... like 78 sides of dice.
I must admit, after reading Lee's thoughtful post, I am doubtful that a meaningful experiment could really be constructed.
Can you experiment on love?
Moongold
18-04-2004, 06:42
The nature of tarot reading is a fascinating subject and we have discussions about in various ways here quite often.
I think that there is absolutely nothing wrong with finding meaning in tarot, however you do it. A life without meaning is a joyless existence. I sometimes wake up in the night and feel cold terror that everything I believe in is a joke and that grey vortex of nothing calls. And then I ground myself and remember the search for meaning and the many joyful moments it has yielded.
We were given intelligence and the ability to think and question, and I think God would want us to use them. What fun is there in someone who accepts everything absolutely? There are many people here who will tell you how to read and what is and isn’t orthodoxy. Already some of the mantras of orthodoxy that I learned when I was new to Tarot I have abandoned because I’ve thought about them, evaluated them, and tried them. The path always calls for further exploration.
There are many profound books on the tarot and many books about tarot reading. One of the best I have read is Rachel Pollack’s Forest of Souls . Mary Greer also wrote some great stuff in Tarot Mirrors . I am sure there are others which I have not read. Featured Readings last years was an attempt to see wonderful readers in action here on Aeclectic in a locally accessible way, and to see at first hand something of their process, and to ask questions about it. I think that was successful. When I see readings from people like MeeWah, I feel once more inspired. Firemaiden’s recent readings in the Rxchange were other very different and fine examples of reading.
I think it will always remain necessary to ask questions about the nature of Tarot reading, and it would be possible to study this nature and the process. There are many different type of qualitative research and some of those could be very effective. It depends on what you want to know and how you ask the questions.
originally posted by firemaiden
I must admit, after reading Lee's thoughtful post, I am doubtful that a meaningful experiment could really be constructed
Such research (not experiments) could be done. and would be very useful. There are many examples of similar work in other areas of study. No one piece of research would answer all the questions I have. but one small piece might open some doors. Maybe some has already occurred that I don’t know about, and I will check the literature next time I’m near a library.
I suppose it depends on what you mean by "meaningful research". By strict scientific standards, no. Psi, creativity, magic, and related phenomena seem to be in the general area of Chaos Theory, rather than the nice neat world of Entropic Theory, which allows you to set up nice repeatable tests.
So far as I know, there are as yet no standards for doing experimentation or research on areas covered by Chaos Theory - they're still working out the details of the theory, and a long way from saying whether there ever will be ways to do research. And if what you've got is a mathematics which simply shows you the areas in which you can't predict the outcome, it's not likely to resolve so tidily.
Personally, I think we'll have to leave it at the thought that working with the Tarot or other divination methods won't ever be comfortable to explain, and is unlikely to be susceptible to standard methods of "proof".
Unfortunately, there are very few people in this world who are willing to accept "It feels right" as a reason for doing things, so it's hard to simply stop looking for explanations that will satisfy other people (or us).
I groan everytime I hear the call to quantify tarot, or any other pursuit that seeks to reach beyond the knowable. For me, the whole is greater than the sum of the parts and attempts to quantify have the effect of dimishining... of offering a false sense of knowing.
I see tarot reading as an artform...
"Art is made to disturb. Science reassures. There is only one valuable thing in art: the thing you cannot explain" Georges Braque
I like the word "Art" from the post of Aoife.
Sometimes I feel Tarot is talent of our own creations just like a picture.
When we look at a picture from an artist we all see things differently & do we really know what the artist was thinking at the time or what he wanted us to see with his creativity.
So is Tarot.
The Fool is truly the Great Joker-
at the present moment of the reading because the next reading is a whole new art form.
This is just what the Fool may want,
us to use our creative ability,
another form of art,
"the thing you cannot explain"
I know what Moongold is describing... I've had readings where I'm going along, talking about the cards and their meanings, fully aware of what's going on...
... and while I'm talking, the whole thing rings false and silly, like a bunch of strung together platititudes meant to sound like "Wisdom".
And I think, s/he's gonna walk out on me for giving such vague generalities as answers.
I hate those readings.
All good musings, Moongold...and all things I am sure at one time or another we have or will reflect upon...
Last night, I reread Umbrae's article in the beginning of AT about the process....I find it so "wise" when I start asking myself too much...I need to keep it simple...I love that he talks about developing the rapport with the sitter...and the interaction, giving the sitter a pad of paper and a pencil to write down date and notes they want to take...I printed it out to reread, since it really helps me with the questions you ask...
Ultimately, there are "flashes" of intuition that come as we turn over the cards...some bring up nothing...and we need to "look out the window" and reflect...as Umbrae says....not letting the sitter interrupt with chatter...some readings "feel" better than others...we have a responsbitlity to not "predict" illness, birth, death....He keeps it in reality for me....
In the end, I'm not sure where I am going with it....it does seem to work as a tool for spiritual guidance for me...why? Don't know..
How? don't know...some days are better than others....sometimes things come to me and later I stop and say
"Where did that COME from?"
That's the "magic" of Tarot, I guess....
plus, the pictures are pretty cool...better than toothpicks for me...and, I suppose, ....better for the Querent, in the long run, that we "use" something since many come with more skepticism than others...
I'm with, firemaiden...
I don't know how one "measures" faith or beliefs or spirituality....
It's kind of an oxymoron to use these words together....
terri
le pendu
18-04-2004, 13:41
Hi Moongold,
Personally, I think of the tarot as 78+ ways of looking at a situation. Perhaps any card coming up in any position creates a connection in the reader's mind that may or may not have occured before, leading to a new or emphasised viewpoint on the question being asked. Therefore, I find the value and power of the tarot not in the cards, nor in any system, but in the new connections and thoughts that one manifests when using them. Same goes for runes, oghams, clouds, tea leafs, or any other form of "divination".
Have you seen this thread?
http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=23950
robert
Rusty Neon
18-04-2004, 13:44
Originally posted by robertmealing
Hi Moongold,
Personally, I think of the tarot as 78+ ways of looking at a situation. Perhaps any card coming up in any position creates a connection in the reader's mind that may or may not have occured before, leading to a new or emphasised viewpoint on the question being asked. Therefore, I find the value and power of the tarot not in the cards, nor in any system, but in the new connections and thoughts that one manifests when using them. Same goes for runes, oghams, clouds, tea leafs, or any other form of "divination".
Tarot and other forms of divination are wonderful brainstorming and creativity tools.
Moongold
18-04-2004, 15:54
These were some of the thoughts behind my original post.
Firstly faith. All of us who participate in this forum have faith in the Tarot. Even those who are mainly interested in the artwork could go off and study art in a thousand other places. Why Tarot?
For me, essentially Tarot is about faith and enchantment. Both of those things are really hard to explain. Neither experience has left me yet nor I keep working to keep them through consciousness and study. These things are really hard to explain but I think it is really important to try. People explain their own consciousness of Tarot in different ways – through study, reading, art poetry, and writing. Every bit of this is fascinating to me. But my post referred, as Alissa picked up, to the act of reading. What happens in that process? And thank you, terri, for the reminder about Umbrae’s seminal work.
What happens in the relationship between Querent and Reader? Observation, relationship, some conscious/unconscious connection. What enables the connection? Curiosity, need, generosity, understanding, empathy, psychic gifts? And what happens with the connection and the ensuing reception? The gift can be truth, identification, recognition, attention.
Maybe it is impossible to describe and evaluate this scientifically. I was not thinking of scientific research or quantitative research actually but let’s stop briefly and look at this. Years ago I learned TM. The first time I did it for just ten minutes, and had an amazing physical and psychological response. I continued to do it for years, sometimes spending whole weekends on meditation retreats. During one of these I had a vision of sorts, but mostly what happened was low-key peaceful ad good and had a great physical and psychological impact. Now, there has been some scientific research carried out on TM. I think there have been studies on the brains of people before, during and after TM which indicate that something is happening. I read this many years ago and I can’t recall the sources but I am sure they could be found. I am not suggesting that we measure the brainwaves of people involved in tarot (:D) but simply say that perhaps this is a place for science in all of this.
The kind of research I am thinking about is qualitative, some call it heuristic. It commences with a hypothesis and then uses various means – narrative, perhaps poetry, description, observation, reflection. This kind of research cannot encompass the whole but it can be really valuable in bringing new insights into process and outcome. I guess it is simply about adding to understanding.
Returning to faith. Hmmm – It is so individual but also collective. I have been to many meetings over the years where people have shared their experiences of faith, healing and recovery and something magical happens when that occurs. I have been involved in collective meditations also, where something almost tangible has occurred. I have also been involved in tarot readings where something magical has occurred and I “knew” that that whatever it was, it was very important.
I guess my original thoughts came from trying to understand this process so as not to let it slip away again, and also to share with others. Why were “Meditations on the Tarot”, “Forest of: Souls”, Umbrae’s “Process” written? Possibly for the same reasons. What I was suggesting is just another way of understanding the process. And, yes, I do think that ultimately science might also play a part in this but maybe there has not been a good enough hypothesis yet, or people willing to explore.
Moongold
18-04-2004, 17:25
Originally posted by Astra
Personally, I think we'll have to leave it at the thought that working with the Tarot or other divination methods won't ever be comfortable to explain, and is unlikely to be susceptible to standard methods of "proof".
Unfortunately, there are very few people in this world who are willing to accept "It feels right" as a reason for doing things, so it's hard to simply stop looking for explanations that will satisfy other people (or us).
Possibly you are right. And some things don't require proof or defence. If they work for the people who use them, and they do, that is enough proof.
I think our appreciation and understanding can be enhanced by research however.
Sometimes really interesting information can be found by simple anonynous survey. We recently did one regarding staff development needs and got some surprising results.
T wonder what a really good survey of Aeclectic membership would show for instance on what they appreciated about the site.
This is a very basic but useful form of research. An interesting survey could be of people who participate in readings through the RXChange - what did they think? How did the reading impact on their lives?
Now, before I get dozens of pm's I am not suggesting that we do this. Just exploring some ideas, and expanding the notion of research.
ZardKravell
19-04-2004, 22:11
Greetings Moongold!
Originally posted by Moongold
There are posts throughout Aeclectic about intuition and what it means. We listen carefully and politely to the experience and thoughts of people, and often let them go unchallenged in their beliefs. Is it enough to simply accept uncritically what people say in tarot readings? Sometimes I think there is just a little bit of desired reality and people grasp at that whilst ignoring all other signals that this may in fact be “non-sense”.
In readings it is human to misperceive some random “hits” and to see patterns where there are none. It is human to focus on the random hit and to ignore all other information which might be saying “Hey No. This is non-sense”. It is human to attribute magical, intuitive powers to particular individuals because we want to believe that someone has the answers.
Does the power of Tarot lie in the simple reality that sometimes we want the loving attention of a reading, the affirming experience that someone is focusing for a time simply on us? And do those who read simply have an unconscious need for meaning and power themselves?
Well, I think it has a bit of both. The ability to perceive patterns is the cornerstone of human perception, but it is also that of self-deceiving. What I believe is that while it is very possible to be deceived by the reading process, it is also possible to gain a great insight by it. This happens, I think, even if Tarot is no more than a fancy set of pictured cards.
Personally, I believe they are a way for us to communicate witour higher self, and get a broader perspective, but of that I have no real proof other than my "intuitive" perceptions and faith.
You mention research...
Has anyone carried out an objective study on the reading of tarot? . Has there been any work done to see what actually happened during the readings themselves and in the attribution of meaning by the recipient? Has there been any analysis of the outcome of tarot readings?
Well I am in the process of doing it ;) Not specifically at what happens in a particular, one on one reading, but regarding if there is a statistical pattern in multiple readings over the same subject (by diferent people). It is a collaborative effort, coordinated via a Yahoo! group, and so far we are still in the initial stages of the test, but I can tell you a few of the initial preliminar findings: over each reading, almost everyone draws a differen card, but almost everyone reaches a similar conclussion.
We are still in a verty early stage, and conclussions are yet far away in the future, but what we are geting is a feeling that there is something that happens when we read, and that this something transends our individuality, i.e. has a somewhat objective existance. I believe that studies like this are the first steps into gaining a greater knowledge of the workings of Tarot and other divination methods.
Are our senses deluded by these wonderful coloured images and the myths they represent? Are these images like spiritual slot machines, lulling people into a false sense of security and hope?
And is the Fool truly the Great Joker?
I don't think so, at least not in a broad sense. Yes, to some, Tarot is just another desception of themselves. An ilusion. But the same happens with religion and with many other things. I believe that Tarot is a tool, for spiritual growth, for self exploring and a way to get in contact with higher aspects of our own self. It can be used for divination, and it can be used to cheat on people, or to really try to help them. But I strongly believe it's a valid tool, and that with time and hard work, we can get a better understanding if how it works.
May the stars shine on you,
TemperanceAngel
20-04-2004, 00:02
It's very human too ask questions and want explanations, sometimes we just have to accept, don't we.....??? XTAX
Major Tom
20-04-2004, 04:23
There has been some work in semiotics and tarot by Dr. Inna Semetsky. You can find links to her work in this thread (http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=18930&highlight=semiotics).
Fascinating stuff. Definitely food for thought for anyone suffering a crisis of faith. ;)
firemaiden
20-04-2004, 04:52
Some more thoughts. What is it that we would like to measure exactly? Whether the tarot "works"? or "how it works?" or ... how "accurate it is" -- these questions assume we can agree on what tarot "working" would be. I can see that skeptics who are annoyed with tarot wish to prove that it is not "accurate" - and cannot be accurate. As if being accurate were the only reason to read.
I suddenly realize... that for me, anyway, "accuracy" is beside the point. But what is the point then? I ask -- and we are back to Umbrae's question " why do you read?"
Quite frankly, I certainly don't read with any desire to be "accurate" or to speak the truth... If a perception of accuracy ensues, it is a side product. As Aoife said, and mojo often reminds us, Tarot is an Art.
I like to think that a reading is a weaving together of word pictures, into a web of meaning. You want meaning? I'll weave some for you -- it will be a like a crystal with many multiple reflective surfaces...
I like mojo's italian motto: "se non è vero, e ben trovato" -- if its not true, it was a great lie...
"We tell ourselves stories in order to live" (Joan Didion)
Originally posted by firemaiden
As Aoife said, and mojo often reminds us, Tarot is an Art.
Yes, it is an art.
But at the risk (which I take) of displeasing Mojo, and perhaps Aoife - although I don't think she will mind: I believe that Tarot is also a Science. One does not preclude the other.
One needs only to have an inkling of the STRUCTURE of the Tarot, for instance take its mathematical structure, to realise that Tarot has some scientific basis. (Mathematics is a science, is it not?)
I have had discussions recently with a French tarologist who has shown me how it relates to other fields of science as well. And they are far too numerous to just be a coincidence. I will ask him one day if I am allowed to share his discoveries with you or if he is keeping them for a future book.
Tarot is not just pretty pictures that work by accident and because we want them to work. They work because they are based on something far more structured than most people want to admit.
The more I delve into Tarot, the more I am convinced of this.
NEVER CONFUSE THE TAROT WITH AN ORACLE!!!! (I think many people don't know the difference. And an oracle can have 78 cards, four suits and divided into two parts - 22 and 56 - but this doesn't make it Tarot. It will be an oracle with 78 cards, four suits..... etc. etc. )
firemaiden
20-04-2004, 05:20
Diana, every time you post, I learn something new. :D :D
What you speak of as Tarot with a capital T, is still a foreign country to me. I am looking forward to a new journey.
Macavity
20-04-2004, 07:41
Comment withdrawn.
Macavity: What is the definition of Science?
Macavity
20-04-2004, 09:13
Comment withdrawn.
Moongold
20-04-2004, 17:00
Originally posted by ZardKravell
Well I am in the process of doing it ;) Not specifically at what happens in a particular, one on one reading, but regarding if there is a statistical pattern in multiple readings over the same subject (by diferent people). It is a collaborative effort, coordinated via a Yahoo! group, and so far we are still in the initial stages of the test, but I can tell you a few of the initial preliminar findings: over each reading, almost everyone draws a differen card, but almost everyone reaches a similar conclussion.
We are still in a verty early stage, and conclussions are yet far away in the future, but what we are geting is a feeling that there is something that happens when we read, and that this something transends our individuality, i.e. has a somewhat objective existance. I believe that studies like this are the first steps into gaining a greater knowledge of the workings of Tarot and other divination methods.
Thank you ZardKravell ~
This is very interesting. I can imagine the research design but I would love to see it. Have you written anything already? What an incredibly complex undertaking! Are you able to keep us informed of your progress? I wonder how many people are in your study?...... So many questions :)
I think there are many interesting studies calling out to be done. These can't survey the whole but they could give us new nsights and deeper understanding of things we already know.
There is faith and science in Tarot. I know that absolutely. In readings sometimes something really profound occurs, and there is a core internal recognition of that for me that mostly I trust but sometimes have real questions about as well. Apart from that internal recognition there is often genuine validation from the Querent and that occurs often enough to provide substantial evidence. I know this would need to be examined more rigorously to have validity but still........
XVII L'Etoile came up in a reading I am undertaking at present. She empties the water of faith and the water of science into the sea and she herself balances in both. Above her shine eight eight- pointed stars, illuminating the darkness. She does not stand alone in thiese associations. VIII Justice, who can be seen as scientific in her approach, weighing and balancing the evidence. It is a though L'Etoile also provides a bridge between the known and the unknown. And one cannot forget Temperance as an essential part of this metaphysical but grounded triune. Again, the presence of the no-non-sense Angel, and those two jars. What passes between them?
Ah..........the themes in these images! The presence of the Divine - the unknown, which is the fundamental nature of science, of enquiry. The feminine presence. This is really significant here. This mix of gentle insight, intuition and hard-edged common sense, something I see as inherent qualities in these three characters, and essential to any research. Science and Faith, the two vessels?
A random thought, inspired by the subject and your concluding salutation. Thank you for your response. I hope we hear more of your work.
Rusty Neon
20-04-2004, 17:47
Originally posted by Diana
NEVER CONFUSE THE TAROT WITH AN ORACLE!!!! (I think many people don't know the difference. And an oracle can have 78 cards, four suits and divided into two parts - 22 and 56 - but this doesn't make it Tarot. It will be an oracle with 78 cards, four suits..... etc. etc. )
Are you suggesting that the Rider-Waite Tarot is an oracle deck, but is not Tarot?
Originally posted by Diana
Tarot is not just pretty pictures that work by accident and because we want them to work. They work because they are based on something far more structured than most people want to admit.. This is an interesting statement. The words "want to admit" seem to suggest that people who disagree with Diana's viewpoint know deep down that she's right but are for some reason afraid to "admit" it. I would like to know what Diana thinks we're afraid of.
-- Lee
Perhaps just an expression or a poor choice of terminology?
The phrase would presuppose a particular knowledge based on or of the images. As it is, the possible source(s) of the images themselves a subject of controversy & debate.
laura_borealis
20-04-2004, 18:40
Quantitative research of Tarot might not turn up meaningful results, but I could definitely see a qualitative study of Tarot as something valuable and of interest. I don't know that I could justify such a study in my instructional design program, but it might be worth further thought. *ponders*
ZardKravell
20-04-2004, 20:12
Greetings Moongold!
Originally posted by Moongold
Thank you ZardKravell ~
This is very interesting. I can imagine the research design but I would love to see it. Have you written anything already? What an incredibly complex undertaking! Are you able to keep us informed of your progress? I wonder how many people are in your study?...... So many questions :)
I have some of the basic documentation ready, still as internal documents, and the analysis reports on the first readings, but it is still all in-group documentation. A public report will be created soon, as the first milestone of the project is practically around the corner.
The participant group is of around 40 members, but active participation is around half that number, a fact that makes "hard" statistical analysis a little difficult. But nevertheless, very interesting data comes out in every reading, and a pattern is emerging, slowly, but I think it's there ;)
If you wish, contact me at statistic-tarot@elysium.com.ar or send me a private message and I'll send you some more details about the project particulars.
I think there are many interesting studies calling out to be done. These can't survey the whole but they could give us new nsights and deeper understanding of things we already know.
There is faith and science in Tarot. I know that absolutely. In readings sometimes something really profound occurs, and there is a core internal recognition of that for me that mostly I trust but sometimes have real questions about as well. Apart from that internal recognition there is often genuine validation from the Querent and that occurs often enough to provide substantial evidence. I know this would need to be examined more rigorously to have validity but still........
I totally agree with you. I have seen it happen, it has happened to me also, and I have a strng faith in serious research and in our ability to improve our understanding of Tarot.
XVII L'Etoile came up in a reading I am undertaking at present. She empties the water of faith and the water of science into the sea and she herself balances in both. Above her shine eight eight- pointed stars, illuminating the darkness. She does not stand alone in thiese associations. VIII Justice, who can be seen as scientific in her approach, weighing and balancing the evidence. It is a though L'Etoile also provides a bridge between the known and the unknown. And one cannot forget Temperance as an essential part of this metaphysical but grounded triune. Again, the presence of the no-non-sense Angel, and those two jars. What passes between them?
Ah..........the themes in these images! The presence of the Divine - the unknown, which is the fundamental nature of science, of enquiry. The feminine presence. This is really significant here. This mix of gentle insight, intuition and hard-edged common sense, something I see as inherent qualities in these three characters, and essential to any research. Science and Faith, the two vessels?
A random thought, inspired by the subject and your concluding salutation. Thank you for your response. I hope we hear more of your work.
It is a beautiful image :) I thank you for sharing it :)
The richness of this kind of intuitive leap... the flight of the imagination... It is, I feel, the great strenght of Tarot. It is the thing that for a lot of us acts like a catalyst for transformation.
It is also good and fitting that it is not so for all people, nor even for all who use it, for it's virtue is to be a screen in which we can read and project our inner voice....
May the stars shine on you, always ;)
ZardKravell
20-04-2004, 20:21
Greetings Laura_borealis!
Originally posted by laura_borealis
Quantitative research of Tarot might not turn up meaningful results, but I could definitely see a qualitative study of Tarot as something valuable and of interest. I don't know that I could justify such a study in my instructional design program, but it might be worth further thought. *ponders*
I beg to differ, I feel that quantitative results *can* be obtained, it is just very difficult to do so, but the effort is worthwhile.
The Internet is a great asset in this quest, being a fundamentally cheap medium for establishing coordination of collaborative efforts that would not have been possible in earlier times. It is not all that is needed, of course, and I can tell you from experience how *HARD* work it is to coordinate even a modest project. But results are "out there" (and in ourselves ;) ), and I feel we should "boldly go where no one has gone before" to get them.
This, of course, does not preclude us from doing any other kind of research or reflection. It rather complements it, and expands our view through the possibility of responsible peer review... at least, that's how I see it.
Love and Light,
laura_borealis
20-04-2004, 22:36
Originally posted by ZardKravell
I beg to differ, I feel that quantitative results *can* be obtained, it is just very difficult to do so, but the effort is worthwhile.
I'm sorry, I didn't mean to deny that quantitative studies of tarot would be possible. My "might not" should perhaps have had more emphasis.
I would certainly welcome such research. :)
Originally posted by Aoife
I groan everytime I hear the call to quantify tarot, or any other pursuit that seeks to reach beyond the knowable. For me, the whole is greater than the sum of the parts and attempts to quantify have the effect of dimishining... of offering a false sense of knowing.
I agree with you on this point. I add that I believe our psychic and intuitive powers come from making the connection with that part of us that is a part of the great and unknowable power. This power has been given many names and faces over the centuries in an attempt to quantify it, to understand it, to connect with it. Of those three reasons, my personal opinion is that if you cleave to one of the many aspects of this great power with the belief that you have truely quantified, classified and understand it, then you are in, as you put it, a state of false knowing. If you simply use that name to make it easier for you to connect to it, your good to go ;)
I think that the tarot is a reflection of that relationship with the great power - I just accept the gift of sight when it comes and I don't have a need to try to explain the how and why of it.
N
Originally posted by Diana
[B}
NEVER CONFUSE THE TAROT WITH AN ORACLE!!!! (I think many people don't know the difference. And an oracle can have 78 cards, four suits and divided into two parts - 22 and 56 - but this doesn't make it Tarot. It will be an oracle with 78 cards, four suits..... etc. etc. ) [/B]
Diana, having never worked with an oracle deck, only tarot, but having just ordered an oracle deck today, I would be very grateful if you could clarify for me the differences between the two. I have my ideas as to what they are, but as someone who I sense has a lot more experience at this than I, I would value your input.
Also, not wanting to hijack this thread ;) you could PM the info to me.
N
Cerulean
21-04-2004, 03:09
While the link below is on successful plots for stories, I wonder if the better tarot readings gives the seeker a feeling like a good story, only on a more personal level it was a session devoted to their story.
Perhaps not a truth in terms of predictive results, but more of a perspective shift, of appreciation for their personal question being treated seriously and personally---and if in the sharing, listening and telling of stories with pictures or concepts, then the seeker can feel free to explore a creative solution or personal shift or alternative. Along the lines of a parable or wisdom tale to teach or instruct, the seeker and reader walk through the learning together, as if they were sharing a storytelling experience
http://www.skotos.net/articles/PlotStrategies.html
I heard a speaker once say she thought instead of paying a psychological counselor to listen to her, she thought looking at tarot images and doing readings with the cards was a better alternative. She was thinking that sitting with her tarot cards and thinking, reflection on her questions yielded better wisdom rather than spending money looking for outside solutions.
It was a thought. Perhaps if people did do a comparison between the following on problem solving, it would be a good study on how effective tarot might be in context of other methods of dealing with problems: 1) going to a psychological counselor 2) talking to a friend or 3) reading a book on the topic in question or 4) doing a tarot reading or 5) writing down lists of possible solutions
6) Meditating 7) Doing something totally different and revisiting the question later
I suppose how each constructs titles is different. I may have headed the same thread (though it would then be different ;)): 'Is Tarot reflection of Spiritual Truth or a sustainable joke?'
I am of course playing with the title (and trust Moongold reads it in the good humour intended).
The thread certainly raises various important aspects of Tarot, and the last few times I began reading the thread, I just thought I couldn't do it justice...
So have finally decided to post without having read each and every post.
Part of the considerations in this thread can be divided into various ways of addressing the general question: What is Tarot?;
What our some of our underpinning reasons for using it?; and
How does it work?....amongst other questions, of course.
With regards to the first question, Diana brings important considerations, for even if we limit discussion to decks, another deck may come to existence which, though indirectly related to Tarot in structure (as well as otherwise in the example which follows), clearly has elements which make it not Tarot. Such an example is, in my personal view, the Sola Busca.
Of course, the question may well be raised as to whether Tarot refers to a deck, or whether a deck may be more appropriately viewed as the manifestation of a Tarot as existing only archetypically.
With regards to what our underpinning reasons using Tarot - or even wanting to use it - perhaps here there may also be something at play which touches us at a deep spiritual level - a level we are generally wont to admit. Not because of any 'fear' of speaking out from the depths of our being, but far more simply, possibly, a combination of both a personal humility which is felt towards the sacred, and an acceptance that no matter how far along the path(s) of discovery we may have trodden, there may come a point where we need to either revise our own views, or even, indeed, realise we may have stepped along a dead-end (though even that may have many wonderful scenic aspects).
For myself, what the usage of Tarot has made me more conscious of is the deep spiritual discipline and development of the imaginative faculty, and how it may be related to both inspiration and intuition - yet distinct.
For myself, it is not Faith - nonetheless, that too has grown with time. Faith, however, in the spiritual world generally.
...hence at times why I may characterise that possibly the way Tarot works is as an expression of the spiritual world, allowing an unveiling through the imaginative faculty of things remaining otherwise veiled.
Of course, developing clarity of understanding and interpretation as one 'brings to Earth' these gifts from on high is an ongoing task...
But to go and take the time to read more of this wonderful thread :)
Originally posted by _N_
...I add that I believe our psychic and intuitive powers come from making the connection with that part of us that is a part of the great and unknowable power. This power has been given many names and faces over the centuries in an attempt to quantify it, to understand it, to connect with it. Of those three reasons, my personal opinion is that if you cleave to one of the many aspects of this great power with the belief that you have truely quantified, classified and understand it, then you are in, as you put it, a state of false knowing. If you simply use that name to make it easier for you to connect to it, your good to go ;)
I think that the tarot is a reflection of that relationship with the great power - I just accept the gift of sight when it comes and I don't have a need to try to explain the how and why of it.
N
Tend to see this as _N_, especially about "accept[ing] the gift of sight" & not needing an explanation.
There are more things on earth than can ever be known in one lifetime that the effect can be very humbling. If nothing else, seems to ask for the open-mindedness.
Moongold
21-04-2004, 14:08
Originally posted by _N_
……….. I believe our psychic and intuitive powers come from making the connection with that part of us that is a part of the great and unknowable power. This power has been given many names and faces over the centuries in an attempt to quantify it, to understand it, to connect with it. Of those three reasons, my personal opinion is that if you cleave to one of the many aspects of this great power with the belief that you have truely quantified, classified and understand it, then you are in, as you put it, a state of false knowing. If you simply use that name to make it easier for you to connect to it, your good to go ;)
I think that the tarot is a reflection of that relationship with the great power - I just accept the gift of sight when it comes and I don't have a need to try to explain the how and why of it. N
The are many ways of seeking the unknowable, of searching for meaning. Some seek through prayer, meditation, their daily work.. For others, the search may not simply stop with acceptance. They may seek further knowledge through reading, study and research. You would not say that a state of acceptance and open mindedness precluded the search for further knowledge and understanding would you? For some, increased understanding may come through revelation and spiritual practice. For others it may come through active searching.
The capacity to do receive and accept and to search and discover may be gifts from the same source and they are not mutually exclusive.
Research and evaluation are simple activities which we do in some measure each day of our lives. We may each use different language for these activities, and see them differently but we do them. If we stopped asking why and how, where would we be?
Moongold, for those who enjoy research and who need to find answers then let them, I've no problem with that, each to their own. I simply am not one of them when it comes to doing an indepth scientific analysis of the tarot or of the gift of being able to accurately gain insight from it. Some things I prefer to just accept - my life is too full of so many other things that require analysis that I cut the fat where I can. :D Inhance my calm is my goal, and I have no wish to hurt my brain trying to figure out something that is simply, for me, not needing an explination ;)
N
Moongold
21-04-2004, 16:24
Hahaha ……Speaking for myself, sometimes just the tasks of daily living hurt the brain and I divert myself by asking questions :D.
If I could just bring some ideas together here.
Science tends to look at the world as something objectively experienced and uses quantitative measures such as statistical analysis to measure these experiences. There are physical sciences and the so-called social sciences. I think ZardKravell’s project leans toward this type of approach, although I have not seen his research design. I feel a little uncomfortable in describing the attitude of science so simplistically because I feel that it is actually much more than I have said.
There are other schools of thought which contest this notion of the objectively experienced world and argue that the world is experienced through consciousness which is implicitly subjective. People who hold these ideas, which would probably include most of the Aeclectic membership, would naturally go for a qualitative approach to research. Cerulean’s project would almost certainly use qualitative techniques. I think her suggestion is a lovely idea by the way.
The two approaches are not always exclusive of each other but they are often seen to be. I would tend more to the qualitative approaches to understanding human experience and certainly to studying the tarot. People will always challenge any research design, objective or qualitative and that is simply part of the process of discovery.
And there are some who don’t see the need for any research at all, which is fine as well. Some see Tarot as art, some see it as brainstorming, some see it as storytelling, and some see it as predictive or analytic and so on.
One thing is sure and that is that the whole can never be understood. It is too diverse, too subjective and too large to ever attempt to do that. Little pieces of the picture can be examined though, and this can lead to huge leaps in understanding. For those interested, it is simply a matter of deciding what questions to ask.
Of course, for many the basic question is whether this kind of enquiry is worth doing at all. :)
TemperanceAngel
21-04-2004, 18:44
Moongold, I am intrigued do you think that the Tarot needs to be scientifically proven? XTAX
Are faith and reason ultimately mutually exclusive?....Is there somewhere a synapse between the two that cannot be "jumped?"
It sounds to me, Moongold, that you are not trying to "prove" that which ultimately has no physical proof...or perhaps there is "proof" that we cannot yet see...because we are too far away in steps from that knowledge....it sounds to me as though you are asking what elements of the process (and I like the three questions posed by jmd...as they have been in past) can we "verify" by some collectable data....which would mean controlling some of the variables...and that's where I see this breaking down...
In the studies of psychology...this has always been a stumbling block...even trying to "prove" methods of therapy and therapy vs. medication or medication and therapy...
very difficult to "quantifY' when that is a required element in research...
just thinking out loud...
Ultimately, so much boils down to one's personal purposes and needs and whether or not the individual is happy with an outcome...which doesn't necessarily validate any reason for that outcome...
Even in my own field, speech pathology, the journals are ever trying to research and find relationships as outcomes of the studies....but, as anybody who has done research might agree, the "seeming connections" found in the study, still do not indicate
a cause/effect relationship...and this is in sciences that are more "measurable" than Tarot seems to be at this time...
Ty, Moongold, for making us all think deeply about our beliefs and Tarot....I read because I feel I have something to offer to myself and, hopefully to others, and I believe (there's that word again)
that Tarot is a wonderful tool for me to use...not that I couldn't give guidance or a "reading" without the cards...
Can't remember who said this...Rusty? jmd? the cards are even a wonderful tool to use to brainstorm a problem or situation merely because it can shift us to lateral thinking through images and, perhaps, knowledge we have about these images...
terri
As a postscript, however, the vast bodies of research in all areas today, has, no doubtedly saved lives....and some research taken as valid has later been shown to offer up suggestions that are, in fact, harmful in the long run...so we must be critical in our study and in our acceptance/rejection of data....My hat is off to people who can construct good research...it is much needed in many areas....
My husband's life has been saved several times in the last few years because of research that led to trials that led to his being a candidate for some "new" procedures...without which he would not have lived....these are medical areas, but that doesn't mean good gathering of data in Tarot or some areas of Tarot has no place of importance to all of us.
So the questions continue....and the debate.....
Umbrae, I know you are out there with a good one-liner....
Khatruman
21-04-2004, 19:22
Ok, I didn't bother to read all of the other responses to this thread, and this is the type of question where I like to explore.
Forewarning: By its nature, this is a question where I could go deeply into my notions of reality or not, depending on how much I want to delve at this time. In fact, this whole post could end up being a garbled mess of non-sense.
Here is my question, working out of the inquiry as to whether a scientific study has been done as to the true workings of tarot:
Does it really matter?
Do we need to have scientific "proof" and backing for tarot?
Ok, fine... that was two questions.
In regards to patterns, where folks find patterns where "there are none".
Are there truly any patterns, or any sense to anything in life?
Our brains are programmed for patterns.
^ ^
( ) ( )
Do you see a pattern there? Of course you do. Your brain tries to see something there. However, I simply typed some carats and parentheses. The parentheses most likely become "circles" in your head, but there is no connection.
Does my little picture become less valid because you can prove that they aren't linked?
When you watch a movie, you are seeing a series of still pictures flashed before your eyes, several times a second. Does that mean that the movement you catch does not exist? You still see the car chase, the love scene, the mob killing, etc., and it still resonates to you. However, scientifically I can prove no truth or reality to that movement at all.
So, scientists and skeptics will continually prove an invalidity to the workings of tarot whether we like it or not. They will challenge us to "prove" it works. Convince us to believe that scientific proof is the only reality there is.
Meanwhile, we will go on gathering the insights, knowledge, wisdom and understanding that we do from the practice of using tarot.
Smile and wave to the scientists and let them get back to their test tubes.
Proof, for each of us, is different; otherwise we wouldn't be here, would we? Somehow, we each found the proof we needed to continue using Tarot, rather than tossing it aside as something foolish....... :)
Moongold
21-04-2004, 22:20
Originally posted by TemperanceAngel
Moongold, I am intrigued do you think that the Tarot needs to be scientifically proven? XTAX
No I don't think that, and I haven't said anything like that here. :)
I think it might be good to explore various aspects of Tarot but I don't NEED to do that.
We don't don't realise that people research and evaluate all the time. There is probably a lot material more available in terms of original research than we know. Major Tom gave a link in this thread which offers an explanation of Tarot by way of semiotics, for example.
Research and evaluation can only add to our knowledge of Tarot. There are many other possible uses for research.
It can also help us explain to others what we do more effectively. We often complain about misunderstanding and prejudice. Having more information about what Tarot is and does might go just a little way in helping us explain it to others. The project suggested by Cerulean might help do that, for example.
It would be unrealistic to suggest that any research will change the overall attitude of the mainstream to Tarot, however. But there is no harm in thinking about it.
Let us look at this from another perspective. Look at all the research that occurs and is written up in the History and Iconography Forum. It is all part of the search for authenticity, understanding, meaning. It is research. Why do the Tarot Historians and Iconographers spend so much time on this? Perhaps we should ask them .......hahahaha .... more research :D
Some of them do it purely from the history and art point of view. Some do it because they are interrested in symbolism. Some do it simply out of love. These are all valid reasons. The knowledge that we get from their work enhances our understanding and our reading.
Look at numerology. Some Aeclecticians have question the basis of commom theories about numerology and feel the need for something more credible if they are going to use numerology in their readings. More research.
If I was going to use Tarot in psychological counselling I would probably base my decision to do so on other studies where this has been done. In fact I might need to do so if I was going to working in a clinical setting. (That is a rhetorical observation by the way - I'm not a counselor).
Have I made sense so far? This is my lunch break and I am rushing :)
Moongold
starsongs
21-04-2004, 22:23
This is the most thoughtful thread. :D Thanks to all who have shared here, and to you Moongold for beginning it.
I have a few thoughts to add. I feel that Tarot is equally Scientfic (ie based upon a mathematical structure like Diana mentions) and an Intuitive Art.
Some readers are more inclined toward the scientific, whilst others are gifted in the intuitive approach. Some combine the two (and these would likely be persons that are equally left/right brained or whole-brained)
To me, each one is equally valid. There is no right or wrong way to approach it. Much lie in the purity of intent of the reader, and the value to the querent.
Quote by Moongold: There are posts throughout Aeclectic about intuition and what it means. We listen carefully and politely to the experience and thoughts of people, and often let them go unchallenged in their beliefs. Is it enough to simply accept uncritically what people say in tarot readings? Sometimes I think there is just a little bit of desired reality and people grasp at that whilst ignoring all other signals that this may in fact be “non-sense”.
No, (to me) its not okay to let things go unchallenged or to simply accept what others say in tarot readings or any place else. One doesn't have to openly question, but it is important to think for yourself. Ultimately we all have the answers we are seeking. Truth is relative.
TemperanceAngel
22-04-2004, 01:13
Originally posted by Moongold
No I don't think that, and I haven't said anything like that here. :)
I know you never said anything like that, I was just intrigued, that's why I asked you the question!
The problem I see with research is, well it is scientific and sometimes things are best left alone. Why is it humanity is always trying to disect things? Why do people have to know how something works? Is it because of the fear of the unknown?
To me, one of the things that I adore about Tarot is it's mystery. No-one really knows where it comes from, and no-one really knows how it works, it just does! I don't even bother to try and figure out how it works.
But I can tell you how much it still fascinates me every week when I lay out the cards for my client(s) and the story comes together and it matches them, it is them....wonderful!!!!
How? How does it happen? If it's a Cosmic Joke then myself and my clients have definately been fooled, and enjoyed every minute of it :D :D :D
XTAX
Is Tarot a Cosmic Joke or Sustainable Truth - Is a constructive discussion possible?
You cannot quantify Picasso, nor can your qualify Mozart.
Divination is art.
You can attempt to measure – but where you stand when your qualify or quantify will affect the measurement.
…and you cannot measure love, for love exists in the world of the spirit.
Concentrate on too many details, and you will lose the picture…details are the realm of the Bateleur – he is the sorter, the measurer, the qualifier, and quantifier. The one who puts things in boxes, draws lines and territories, defines boundaries where none were meant to be. He takes magic out of the world by boxing it. In Rachel Pollack’s ’78 Degrees of Wisdom’ page 33 she states, “…the shaman has developed his will to the point where he can direct the fire that fills him, allowing his ego to dissolve under the direct onslaught of the spirit. It says something about our culture that our wizards stand inside magic circles to make sure the demons cannot touch them.”
Our magician attempts to define magic – to define the divine. You cannot control magic by labeling, measuring, sorting…you cannot box it…(This package was packed by weight not by volume - contents may have settled during shipping).
La Papesse will tell you that…she’s not about faith, she’s about acceptance; she’s about letting the magic run free…
Magic, true magic is about wonder. We know how much the moon weighs, we know the specific gravity, we know what it’s made of…but if you do not feel wonder in your heart when you look at it…then you think too much.
Logic is not the path to love…
And both love and art are in the realm of the spirit.
I’ve often said that there is a point in randomness where patterns can be discerned, a point at which statistics go beyond mean-variance and standard deviations. Where chaos breaks down. This is a point that some call magic, others – God.
Divination is about riding that point…the point of chaos…and feeling wonder of it all.
Faith is for religion.
Wonder is for the spirit.
As to WHY The Process (http://www.aeclectic.net/tarot/learn/process_introduction.shtml) was written? Because so much is written about the mechanics, and so little about the art. I thought I’d like to help fill the void.
Books teach mechanics. I teach art.
Listen to the newbies!
They read the books and ask about the mechanics. Posters re-enforce their insecurity about Mechanical Specifics…when in fact, the mechanical specifics are fallacious (shuffling, cutting, what does this card really mean?).
If a person can practice divination without the cards, in a mechanical specific void, and experience accuracy…then the only answer is Art and Spirit – and where the two meet…love.
Shhhhhhhhh…Listen…
Did you hear that?
Moongold
22-04-2004, 04:52
Originally posted by TemperanceAngel
I know you never said anything like that, I was just intrigued, that's why I asked you the question!
The problem I see with research is, well it is scientific and sometimes things are best left alone. Why is it humanity is always trying to disect things? Why do people have to know how something works? Is it because of the fear of the unknown?
To me, one of the things that I adore about Tarot is it's mystery. No-one really knows where it comes from, and no-one really knows how it works, it just does! I don't even bother to try and figure out how it works.
Greetings Temperance -
The trouble is that people see research as scientific and it's not always that by any means
Research can simply be asking how and why about a specific thing or subject and then using a considered way of finding out.
There is also such a thing known as Action Research where you look at something as it unfolds. You might use a number of methods to do that - People's stories, background, social data, policy and so on.
By researching the history of astrology or numerology, for example we definitely increase our understanding of those subjects and possibly become better practitioners. Maybe Umbrae won't agree with me, but he did that to a certain extent to come up with the some different ideas about numerology that some of us think are better than others we've seen.
We ask how and why about the Tarot many time a day in these forums. I've seen you ask a few questions yourself to assist you with a particular issue and you might have got what you needed. Magnify that a little and you've got a research project. No need to be afraid of the term.
Hold on to your magic. Nobody will ever take that away from you. The Moon has been researched s thoroughly in scientiific and other ways, yet the magic for me has simply increased with more knowledge.
I have read lots about Tarot and use it quite bit, and the magic for me is greater now than it ever was. The Tarot has never disappointed me. I have made mistakes with it but that is me, not the Tarot.
But I have sometimes wondered WHY and HOW about some things, and probably always will. But people do that everyday here :).
Moongold
TemperanceAngel
22-04-2004, 05:24
Moongold a whole post dedicated to me, well I am honoured!
Originally posted by Moongold
We ask how and why about the Tarot many time a day in these forums. I've seen you ask a few questions yourself to assist you with a particular issue and you might have got what you needed. Magnify that a little and you've got a research project. No need to be afraid of the term.
I am not afraid, hey that's like an affirmation.
I AM NOT AFRAID :D :D :D
Of course I ask questions, it's a Forum, but I never ask how Tarot works.
I like to think of the Origins of Tarot as something from mythology, it weaves its way magically through the centuries, the story changing now and then. Why or how we are not really sure...
History is fascinating, absolutely fascinating, but as most would know on here certainly not my forte, and not something I like to devote a lot of time to either....but hey that's just me.
I have friends on here who love History!!! XTAX
Originally posted by Umbrae
You cannot quantify Picasso, nor can your qualify Mozart.
Divination is art.
…and you cannot measure love, for love exists in the world of the spirit.
Concentrate on too many details, and you will lose the picture…
La Papesse will tell you that…she’s not about faith, she’s about acceptance; she’s about letting the magic run free…
Magic, true magic is about wonder. We know how much the moon weighs, we know the specific gravity, we know what it’s made of…but if you do not feel wonder in your heart when you look at it…then you think too much.
Logic is not the path to love…
And both love and art are in the realm of the spirit.
Divination is about riding that point…the point of chaos…and feeling wonder of it all.
Faith is for religion.
Wonder is for the spirit.
Shhhhhhhhh…Listen…
Did you hear that? Delicious, Umbrae!!!! Thank you! :)
I think this thread is mis-titled - although I probably would have made the same mistake as well... so please no offence Moongold.
I think it should be called "Are Tarot Readings a Cosmic Joke......".
As to whether Tarot, or Tarot Readings are only art and not science....
well, I am very dubious. Very very dubious.
Perhaps a bit of both? Certainly, I do not see it as only an art. To me that just doesn't make sense.
Moongold
22-04-2004, 12:06
For each person the Tarot is different. For some it is an art, love. For others it is both science and art, love. For others it is simply a pack of cards which help tell a story. For others it is magic, love.
For some it is a gift which one accepts and nurtures with love.
Some feel no need to do more than simply accept. Others love so much they attempt to understand though the means most accessible to them. That is their way.
None of this will hurt anyone or damage that which is experienced by way of tarot.
For me, much has been given in this discussion, all enriching.
Moongold
22-04-2004, 18:51
There are some observations I would like to make. The first is about “not knowing” :) People not knowing a lot of things that I hoped they would. Some of the assumptions people hold about science bewilder me a little. Sometimes people tend to bundle woes and assumptions together and lump them in one piece of baggage, leaving the baggage at the door of something like "science" or something else, often quite amorphous.
I hope some of us begin to think a little more. A conundrum isn’t it? On the one hand, in another context we are enjoined not to think – and here is someone else saying that she wished people WOULD think a little more. I am playing a little bit with words and contexts but let me go a little further.
I think we need to be thoughtful and considered about the tarot, BECAUSE we love it. Many people do think often about a lot of the questions which have been raised in this thread. They may see and name these reflections differently, as I have tried to show in this thread. When you love something you try to get toknow it. You may do this in a profoundly mystical way, or a simple practical way, but you do question, you do explore.
We need to know, at least vaguely, where we understand little as well, and we need to know our own prejudices. Science - well, we could not do without it, and some of the greatest historic and contemporary mystics were and are scientists. Some of them think so differently, but like bright stars, and we need them so much. Scientific enquiry into things mystical might be really hard and challenging, but there are some ways this could be imagined so let us think and wait before we scorn. And, as already been said, there are many other subjective ways to look, to enquire. I am not saying we should, just that we can. I hope that we can be open to it.
Now the art, the mystery, the indescribable. Many see Tarot in this way, and don’t see the need to even discuss their sense of wonder. But this quality often emerges in other ways - in the way they live their lives, in their writing and in their eyes. And also in the love that surrounds them. I have observed this personally and think this phenomenon is itself is worth a study.
:) :) :)……………..and many blessings to you all.
I am very sad and tired today. We had a client death through drugs this week and her funeral is this morning. The weather which has been warm and autumnal all week has become gray and wet this morning, as though the Earth also weeps at this terrible loss. Not senseless, but achingly terrible.
starsongs
22-04-2004, 19:06
In the spirit of putting the thread back on track: comment withdrawn :)
So sorry, Moongold, for your loss....this is never easy, but sometimes seems so "needless" ....so many deaths have no reasons ....people of all ages die...but it is always sad...
My stepson, died at 23, drug-fueled suicide...it was in 1985...but sometimes I still see him laughing and affable and easy-going...he just wasn't strong enough to get the help...he kept saying "I can deal with this by myself." That was his deepest problem...not reaching out for the right kind of help...and not having the strength...anyhow, I send you hugs and love....hurting means we care.....and we all know you do, Moongold...
terri
Moongold
22-04-2004, 19:54
Thank you for your good wishes. This young woman was a client, not a family member, and is like many of the young people who we serve. She was an individual but also represents so much chaos and need.
I realise that I have diverted the thread. My apologies. Perhaps people could return to the subject of the thread? I moved mycomment about our client to the end of the post.
Is Tarot a Cosmic Joke or a Sustainable Truth??
O.K. we're back..I am just finishing "Angels and Demons" by Dan Brown (DaVinci Code)...It has some very interesting premises (it is fiction, of course, but much of what he refers to exists...)
about matter and anti-matter...One protagonist is a scientist who, with her father, was trying to find the point at which science and faith became One...won't give any more away...but there are some quotes I like:
Science tells me God must exist. My mind tells me I will never understand God. And my heart tells me I am not meant to.
It seems like we are wavering here between the Art/faith in Tarot and Tarot as a measurable scientific tool....At some point, there were beliefs (earth is flat, man can't "fly", sound carried through waves in the air, pictures, too...transplantation of body parts..electronic devices that are 'grown' and ultra-miniature...the internet, the phone...) that seemed "way out there."
But they came to be, and, are real...we know there is now a way to do these things and scientists can explain the how...although the average person doesn't necessarily understand the "how."
But we believe because we see the evidence....and we take these things for granted as part of life as we are living it. What does our future hold in regards to things we now believe to be "unmeasurable" or "psychic?"
I am not totally into believing there can be no objective study of Tarot ...and maybe Diana is right, maybe it should be Tarot Readings...because we certainly can study Tarot...Are the results of a reading measurable or is our "proof" what we get when we receive viable feeback from the sitter? But then, I agree with jmd, Umbrae and others, Why do we read the Tarot? What purpose does it serve...we will have many different answers to that...
For my purposes....a lateral way of thinking about a situation, a spiritual guide ...a collection of images that taps into my unconscious and brings up guidance....works for me...I haven't read enough for others, but so far, feedback has been good.
My principal said the other day, "Oh no, you're not into Tarot? I had a reading once and I'll never do it again...The woman said ..'I see darkness...' and then went on to tell me terrible things were going to happen but couldn't tell me what or when."
WELL!!, I said...
And I'm sure you have an idea of what I said...so there are people out there using Tarot to "predict" birth, death, sickness, fame and fortune...that isn't my purpose, and isn't why I was drawn to Tarot...
To be a good spiritual guide, I believe, is a gift and an art...and people will be drawn back to the reader who gives good guidance...is that measurable? Perhaps...And this doesn't mean that I place Readers who use the Tarot for divinatory purposes in a less "believable" category...I just haven't had it work that way .....yet ....for me...and if, and when it does,
I hope I can carry the message in such a way that it will be constructive guidance.
Good discussion, Moongold....
closrapexa
23-04-2004, 14:02
I wanted to post something in this thread a few days ago, but then it dawned on me that I had absolutely no idea what to write. So I set myself thinking. And this is what I came up with:
Nothing.
Nothing, because I was searching for an answer, but I didn't know the question. Maybe others can, and from what I've read, answer the question better, but to me Tarot is all about faith. Without it none of us would be here. Scientifically, Tarot cannot be proven, just as the existence of God cannot be proven.
So?
I don't know if it matters much. I was born Jewish, but I stopped believing that rituals and rules matter much to the Supreme Being. Do I have any proof that He/She exists? No. But I believe.
Thats what its all about, isn't it? If anyone asks me to "prove" that Tarot works, I don't know what to say. If anyone asks me "why does the Tarot work" I still don't know the answer.
I'm not saying stop asking questions. We were given the capacity to ask, so there must be a reason for it. But I don't think you can move the Tarot to the realm of science. It just doesn't work that way.
Anyway, I'm not sure I got my point across, reading this reply now I doubt I even had one to make. Thank you for this thread, really made me think (and then ramble on here, as I usually do!).
I'm not quite certain how 'science' came to be such a peripheral but strong feature of various considerations in this thread, but it is nonetheless an interesting one - or at least, I personally also find it so.
For myself, if I was to attempt to characterise some of the essential charateristics of science, and attempt to delineate it from either art, religion, or economy (in the broader sense than simply the financial), I would begin by considering what science aims to achieve: an understanding of the world around us, how it works, how it may be constructed, how parts interact with other parts, and how it may be explained.
In contradistinction, art I may view as a human creative endeavour; religion ('religare') a path towards that which links us; and economy/commerce the organisation, distribution and sharing of resources.
These four seem to well reflect, to my mind, the four suits, by the way.
Many areas thus also cross over these characteristic boundaries, and certain key features which may be used to characterise one area (such as faith) also have their proper place in the others (scientific endeavours would not begin unless there was faith with regards to the nature of the enquiry and its methodologies).
The other ways in which there is 'crossing' across these conceptual boundaries is in most human activity. For example, most items are products which have required some engineering (whether we now take for granted the giant leaps those small steps made many centuries ago). In engineering, or manufactoring, the boundaries between an understanding of the world (science) and a creative output (art) are merged. Some of the underpinnings of our striving for what links us with(in) the highest spiritual connectedness (even if erroneously - in my view - understood in physicalist-socialist-psychological ways) will inevitably also play into its design... and the economic aspect is probably also clear.
Within science, there are numerous ways of investigating. Experimentation may be appropriate in some fields, but not others (one does not - yet - experiment at the astronomical level). Also, ways appropriate to the investigation of the mineral realm would simply obliterate possible investigation if applied to the biological sphere...
With Tarot, then, there are various ways of seeking to gain an understanding, and this needs to be carried out in ways appropriate to it. Submerging and experimenting on the cardboard and inks used will yield many wonderful and interesting results - and some may even present their discoveries about the Tarot, but they would have missed the mark.
Likewise, others may carefully study the ways in which the game is played. Or the ways in which shuffling and spreads are carried out. Or indeed the relationship between what a speaker says when faced with certain cards and the person's background, books read, and current social situation.
These all give us important information.
Tarot, however, may also be considered to have internal structures more akin to those of mathematics. Investigating the paper on which numbers are written would be considered quite useless for the person seeking to understand the area.
Tarot's images and uses also has deep psychological impact on us. Investigating these impacts reveals certainly something of the Tarot, but even more about ourselves, in the same way that investigations of clothing also reveals much of its users.
Between these two examples also lies a somewhat more difficult consideration, for of course, the contents of mathematics exist irrespective as to whether we name numbers and their interaction: they are there for our discovery. How we clothe them either assists or prevents us from easily entering its peculiar world (eg, using Roman vs Hindo-Arabic vs Sino-Japanese numerals) - and each has its veils towards certain directions.
I would suggest that likewise Tarot, and that it is forever even more so at the discernment of its spiritual investigators to modify and re-represent its being...
Tarot is thus 'self-sustainable' (to refer to the title of the thread), because it reflects, in my view, spiritual truth, which is, by its nature, also jovial...
Moongold
23-04-2004, 23:15
Originally posted by jmd
I'm not quite certain how 'science' came to be such a peripheral but strong feature of various considerations in this thread, but it is nonetheless an interesting one - or at least, I personally also find it so.
I think we began to discuss science because some folk associate research and enquiry with science. And some think that all research is quantitative. This thread commenced with ruminations and it is not unreasonable at all that people associated those ideas with what I was saying.
I was wondering at the mystery of Tarot and how it worked and if we didn’t sometimes make it work by wishful thinking. How do we know what is subjective and what is factual? And as, some said, does it really matter as long as it works?
People seem a little dubious about the need to question and study or research but I believe that we do that in some measure every day on the Forums. We just don’t call it that. And others such as JardKravell, are doing some interesting analysis of the accuracy of Tarot readings using objective means.
I guess I am also interested in intuition and how that works. The best insights and explanations for me as far as this is concerned have come from astrology and I would be interested in some other ways of looking at this, perhaps to see if there is some convergence.
I think we have agreed that Tarot is such a huge subject that it would be impossible to study more than a small area of it at a time.
For myself, if I was to attempt to characterise some of the essential charateristics of science, and attempt to delineate it from either art, religion, or economy (in the broader sense than simply the financial), I would begin by considering what science aims to achieve: an understanding of the world around us, how it works, how it may be constructed, how parts interact with other parts, and how it may be explained.
In contradistinction, art I may view as a human creative endeavour; religion ('religare') a path towards that which links us; and economy/commerce the organisation, distribution and sharing of resources.
These four seem to well reflect, to my mind, the four suits, by the way.
Somehow, JMD I am not surprised to hear you say this :). I could be wrong but I assume that Tarot forms a very strong part of the way you view the Divine and work spiritually in the world. If I have been presumptive please forgive me, but I actually think that to do this is quite moving and interesting if it is so.
Many areas thus also cross over these characteristic boundaries, and certain key features which may be used to characterise one area (such as faith) also have their proper place in the others (scientific endeavours would not begin unless there was faith with regards to the nature of the enquiry and its methodologies).
The other ways in which there is 'crossing' across these conceptual boundaries is in most human activity. For example, most items are products which have required some engineering (whether we now take for granted the giant leaps those small steps made many centuries ago). In engineering, or manufactoring, the boundaries between an understanding of the world (science) and a creative output (art) are merged. Some of the underpinnings of our striving for what links us with(in) the highest spiritual connectedness (even if erroneously - in my view - understood in physicalist-socialist-psychological ways) will inevitably also play into its design... and the economic aspect is probably also clear.
This is critical point, if I have understood you correctly. It is where these boundaries merge that the most creative work can be occur. For example Psychology uses projective tests to give insight into a person’s thinking and emotional orientation. These tests are not unlike the use of Tarot except that they may reflect the thoughts of the “Querent” ‘ not the reflection of the Divine. whatever that is.
Tarot is used every day in creative endeavours and there is absolutely no reason why a Tarot reading could not give rise to the huge intuitive leaps that sometimes lead to the most amazing scientific discoveries. Whether the Tarot evokes such lightning insights from the collective unconscious or whether the Divine chooses to speak through images like this is unknown but a fascinating question. Of course there are many other triggers to major intuitive leaps as well, and one would need to believe in the Tarot to use it this way.
Between these two examples also lies a somewhat more difficult consideration, for of course, the contents of mathematics exist irrespective as to whether we name numbers and their interaction: they are there for our discovery. How we clothe them either assists or prevents us from easily entering its peculiar world (eg, using Roman vs Hindo-Arabic vs Sino-Japanese numerals) - and each has its veils towards certain directions.
I would suggest that likewise Tarot, and that it is forever even more so at the discernment of its spiritual investigators to modify and re-represent its being.
For me, this is about Tarot evolving and gives the Tarot student and reader immense freedom in how they use this spiritual gift
Tarot is thus 'self-sustainable' (to refer to the title of the thread), because it reflects, in my view, spiritual truth, which is, by its nature, also jovial...
Yes, beautifully said.
Moongold
Khatruman
25-04-2004, 21:24
I revived this thread because, after responding to this question, I decided to do a tarot reading on the subject. I posted my reading on this subject in the Your Readings section, under this thread:
The Sustainable Joke (http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=25483)
Feel free to read and respond to this.
Thanks!
I haven't read all the post here ... in fact few ... my brain has turned to mush at 7.23am from following threads ... but, I recall during psych studies way back in the '80's that research had been done on the differing perceptions of what counselling psychologists thought had happened in a session, what the 'client' perceived to have occurred, and what was 'measured' by analysis of the actual tapes of the sessions (in terms of skills used and responses generated) as well as post counselling evaluations. Surprise surprise ... no match between any of them.
So ... I don't think that it would be too much of a stretch to see similar results if a similar methodology was used with tarot readings. My personal view was always that what happened for the 'client' was the important aspect - after all, isn't that where the focus should lie? ... with the client - sitter - the person to whom the reading is given? What they get out of it, imho, is paramount.
mythos:)