View Full Version : Thoth study group (Individual cards)
MystiqueMoonlight
09-04-2002, 03:26
As suggested by Moondust and Jewel I have began the first "new" thread for this study group. (I think)
I have never used the RW cards, but love the Haindl deck. The Thoth deck has been calling me for some time now and I have finally succumbed to it. "Inspiring".
Anyway my questions (in regards to a thread about individual cards) are
1. what do you guys think about the 3 interpretations of the Magus card?
2. Do you use all 3 cards in the deck to use in a reading hoping that only one will ever appear at any given time?
3. Does each different Magus card provide you with a unique meaning when you see them regardless of what any book may advise you?
4. Do you find it a hinderance personally that there are 3 different Magus cards?
I am so glad that this study group exists and look forward to participating further....
Blessed be
moondust
09-04-2002, 08:54
Not sure what you mean by 3 different Magus cards in the same deck?? or maybe I am misunderstanding your post?? LOL help me out.
moondust
Originally posted by moondust
Not sure what you mean by 3 different Magus cards in the same deck?? or maybe I am misunderstanding your post?? LOL help me out.
moondust
Moodust, there is a version of this deck that comes with 3 Magus cards instead of 1. It will depend on which Thoth deck you are using whether you will have the additional cards or not.
Mystique, thanks for starting this thread!
Dragonfly
09-04-2002, 12:39
I also have a deck that has all three cards. I think the deck is meant to be read with only one Magus at a time. Unless someones heard different. Have a nice day. :)
MystiqueMoonlight
09-04-2002, 16:48
When I get my scanner operating again I'll post the 3 Magus cards for you all to see....
I hope this study group hasn't dropped away.....
moondust
09-04-2002, 22:14
MysticMoonlight, Dragonfly & Jewel. Thanks for clarifying. Hadn't heard of the deck with 3 Magus cards. Is the card drastically different or coloration only?? Can you give a summary of the 3 different meanings?? Are they really 3 different meanings, or a separation of the meanings already attributed to the card??
Interesting.
As far as the study group dropping away, there are at least 4 of us that looks like we want to continue, and hopefully others will come back once they see the posts.
moondust
MystiqueMoonlight
10-04-2002, 00:58
Well Moondust, I actually didn't realise that it was only one specific deck (the regualr size not the large one) that only had the 3 Magus cards in it.
I like this deck over the larger size one because the colours seem more vivid and the size is easier for me to handle and read with.
Anyway to answer your question the 3 different Magus cards are indeed unique to each other so far as the images are concerned. It is not just the colour but the actual central character and the ways the symbols are utilised on each card.
I'll try to explain by breaking each card into 1,2&3 (each card is still of course number 1 in the deck, effectively there are 3 Magus each at number 1)
1. This card has the glyph of mercury on the left and hebrew Beth on the right. The God Mercury is in the centre of the card (looks almost angelic to me) and yellowish/green in colour juggling the four symbols of the elements and looking with a smile over to the left side (at his right hand). The main background is blue and the Cynocephalus Ape is at the lower right hand corner looking up at him shaking his fist. The stave entwined with 2 serpents is above his head.
2. This card has the glyphs in the same place only the God Mercury seems to fill most of the card from top to bottom and is yellow. His arms juggling the elements seem longer and more tendril like whilst there is a large infinity symbol above his head. The Cynocephalus Ape is behind him as a large shadowy figure which seems to part of him almost spirit like. The stave and entwined with 2 serpents is between his legs and covers his "private" bits.
3. This card has the glyphs swapped around. The images appear stone like. The God Mercury is very Egyptian in appearance. He does not appear to be juggling any elements so much as running through the air with the symbols scattered around him. The Cynocephalus Ape is directly below him and looks like a stone statue rather than an interactive part of this card.
I kinda prefer the first Magus card or even the second one. The third doesn't do me any favours to be honest.
But because each of these cards are so unique to each other I was wondering what you all thought about them and you use them in your readings.
Perhaps I am the only one in this group so far with this set. Maybe we'll move onto another card?
blessed be....
moondust
10-04-2002, 08:51
Thanks MystiqueMoonlight ( I think I spelled your name wrong in other posts :( sorry)
Thanks for posting the descriptions. Don't move on to another card yet. Even if we all don't have that deck, I find it interesting that the deck was published that way.
Did they give any notes about it anywhere as to why they did that? Maybe there were different paintings originally. Or for any esoteric reasons, like manifesting on 3 different levels??
What are your thoughts on it, and how have you been working with it in the deck??
(be prepared I ask a lot of questions, always curious)
Have a nice day,
Moondust
Dragonfly
10-04-2002, 13:33
Hi everyone Here some infor. in regards to the three Magus I got this from Akron-Hajo Banzhaf The Crowley Tarot book. Werner Ganser was responsible for the new edition of the cards. He was looking at the original drawings and Lady Frieda Harris had painted three desings of the Magus card and Crowley only accepted one. But since the other two have a symbolic power Ganser added the two as collector's pieces and leaving the choice of which Magus to use to the buyer. Hope that helps.
Blessing to you all.
moondust
10-04-2002, 18:14
Dragonfly,
Thanks for the information.
moondust
Dragonfly
10-04-2002, 19:19
Happy to help hope we can keep this going as well. There is so much to this deck it's great having so many eyes to help see everything and also help with the meaning. Many Blessings to you all.
Tarot Hermit
10-04-2002, 22:12
Originally posted by moondust
Thanks MystiqueMoonlight ( I think I spelled your name wrong in other posts :( sorry)
Thanks for posting the descriptions. Don't move on to another card yet. Even if we all don't have that deck, I find it interesting that the deck was published that way.
Did they give any notes about it anywhere as to why they did that? Maybe there were different paintings originally. Or for any esoteric reasons, like manifesting on 3 different levels??
What are your thoughts on it, and how have you been working with it in the deck??
(be prepared I ask a lot of questions, always curious)
Have a nice day,
Moondust
Actually there is no great secret involved in publishing the three magus cards. When printing from what I understand there is room for 80 cards. Now they used to put the unicursal hexagram on one of the cards and information about the O.T.O. on other extra card. There are two publishing companies for the Thoth deck if I remember correctly and only one of them uses the three magus cards.
Actually when the cards were being painted by Lady Frieda Harris there were quite a few of the cards that had more than one version. I have no idea who had the final say so as to which of the paintings would be used.
Tarot Hermit
MystiqueMoonlight
11-04-2002, 01:25
OK here it is in a nut shell.
Yes Lady Frieda Harris did actually do 3 interpretations of the Magus card and they were on display in the Warburg Institute in London. Werner Ganser did see them and he suggested that they be included in the reprinted deck in 1986.
There is actually no real evidence that implies that there are multiples for the other cards in existence. Obviously it is likely that Lady Frieda Harris did produce more than one sketch for all the other cards (artists often do when they are creating), however it is more likely that these never made the final draft as they may not have been what she was trying to achieve for those.
The suggestion is that the 3 Magus cards were painted to capture specific esoteric notions as imagined by Lady Frieda herself. Alester Crowley actually really only preferred the one that appears in all the decks and that is why that one only really went to print.
Upon suggestion by Harald Schulze-Theiler there always existed 2 other "invisible" cards in every set of Tarot (he refers to the Oswald Wirth deck) and he implied that there were actually to other Fools. However it is suggested by Akron-Hojo Banzhaf in his book "The Crowley Tarot" that it is more relevant to the 2 extra Magus cards in the Thoth Deck.
In order to prevent a long thread here I refer to paragraph 3 page 11 and 12 of his book. I hope this is ok.
The choice then is to either allow the 80 cards to remain in the deck or remove 2 of the Magus cards.
I love this card and I have chosen to keep all 3 in the deck and use them in my readings.
Dragonfly
11-04-2002, 11:52
Hi MystiqueMoonlight just a quick ? What do you do when more than one Magus come up in a reading ? If thats ever happen to you before. Many Blessings :)
MystiqueMoonlight
11-04-2002, 20:47
Originally posted by Dragonfly
Hi MystiqueMoonlight just a quick ? What do you do when more than one Magus come up in a reading ? If thats ever happen to you before. Many Blessings :)
Well because each of these cards is unique to each other so far as the graphics are concerned they tend to influence my intuition differently depending on their position in the layout.
Sometimes of course they may even relate to each other throughout the layout strengthening the purpose of the first Magus card that appeared in the layout. The symbols on each of the cards are all still there only the appearance of the Magus and the way he interacts with each of these symbols (glyphs etc) change.
It is quite interesting to see how having 3 Magi can actually influence a reading (even if it is only a 3 card reading and 2 of the Magi appear).
I recommend to those who have this deck to give it a try and share their experience (or readings) with us.
MystiqueMoonlight
12-04-2002, 07:33
Further to the topic of the 3 Magus cards I would like to refer you (for those of you who have the book) to pages 13 through 15 of The Book of Thoth.
In it Alester Crowley provides a brilliant explanation of the numbering system (0-10) based on the ancient Qabala and the Tree of Life.
More notably he recognises the numbers 7,8 &9 as follows:-
"...one must look to the Vedanta System for a more lucid interpretation although they correspond very closely to the Qabalstic ideas. In the Hindu analysis of existence the Rishis (Sages) postulate three qualities: Sat, the Escence of Being itself; Chit Thought or Intellect; and Ananda (usually translated Bliss), the pleasure experienced by Being in the cause of events...."
I personally believe that the 3 Magi are actually meant to be included in the deck as 3 seperate cards. I see them as represenative of the same Magus but in 3 different personalities. Kind of compared to the 3 wise men who followed the Star of Bethlehem who weren't actually Kings but were seen to be wise because of there spiritual understanding in astrology, alchemy and numerology or the 3 Chinese Foo Lok Tso who represent furtune, longevity and wisdom.
Therefore these 3 cards are a broader explanation of the same and may be used as a pinnacle part of a reading.
This is my personal understanding and belief anyways.
Blessed be.......
Dragonfly
12-04-2002, 18:42
Wow what a great way of looking at the three cards that way. I will try that for my next reading. One quick ? as always. Dose anyone have a book where all three cards are mentioned and explans what the symbols mean. Or am I making way to much of this. And just stick to one general meaing for all three cards. Have a Great weekend everyone. :)
MystiqueMoonlight
12-04-2002, 19:41
Originally posted by Dragonfly
Wow what a great way of looking at the three cards that way. I will try that for my next reading. One quick ? as always. Dose anyone have a book where all three cards are mentioned and explans what the symbols mean. Or am I making way to much of this. And just stick to one general meaing for all three cards. Have a Great weekend everyone. :)
Dragonfly,
I am not aware of any book that discusses all 3 Magus cards as having seperate meanings. I don't believe that is the intent of them anyways.
The book "The Crowley Tarot" by Akron-Hajo Banzhof does mention the 3 Magi but breifly.
Do give it a try in your readings and let us know what your results were.....
Blessed be.....
Dragonfly
12-04-2002, 19:49
Thank You. :) Blessings to you and yours :)
Strange2
14-04-2002, 11:46
Here's a link to the Astrology Center of America site which features images of the 3 Thoth Magus cards:
http://www.astroamerica.com/t-3mage.html
And here's an excellent link to the Occult Art Gallery site which features alternative and work-in-progress art by Lady Frieda Harris for the Thoth deck. There are 3 more alternative Magus cards on display here.
http://www.occultartgallery.com/occultartgallery/harris/harris.html
Dragonfly
15-04-2002, 18:48
Thank you for the web-site. Just amazing to see some of the diffrent versions of the some of the cards. Thanks again.
moondust
15-04-2002, 19:59
strange2
WOW my thanks also for the links. The different designs were truly wonderful to see.
I haven't viewed everything there, (yet) but the moon card was intriguing also, especially the coloration.
Many thanks again.
moondust
Strange2
15-04-2002, 20:20
It's clear from these variants and work-in-progress designs that Lady Frieda Harris really put her spirit into the Thoth deck. For anyone who feels that the Thoth deck is "evil" and purely from the "debased" personality of Aleister Crowley, one only needs to look at the beauty of Lady Freida Harris' fascinating artwork to see the care and insights she gave to the card paintings. The Thoth deck is truly the Crowley/Harris Thoth deck, similar to how the Rider/Waite deck is the Waite/Smith deck.
There is very little documented background on Lady Frieda Harris. Here's a recent page from Paul Hughes-Barlow's site about Harris and other obscure magical personalities:
http://www.supertarot.co.uk/adept/friedaharris.htm
MystiqueMoonlight
16-04-2002, 08:16
OK all I think we all agree that this deck is truly wonderful.
I'd like to ask everyone though to just step back one card to the Fool and express their general understanding of this card and how the Fool card in this deck impacts on you. That is, as well as your general knowledge of what the Fool represents what other ideas come to your mind when you look at this card? Are their any special meanings in this particular card for you and what do you find is the most influential aspect of this card to you?
Is this ok with everyone?
Dragonfly
17-04-2002, 14:51
Hi everyone I was off yesterday. O.K. regarding the Fool card I have a couple of things when I look at this card. One is the leap of faith look with the feet are in the air no fear. Then there the look of a baby when they are on their backs wide eye look where everything so new they have that ready to take off on a new adventure. Thats all I can think of for now. :)
Hi guys & gals,
I hope I'm not missing something. I really want to get involved in this study group, and I see 2 threads for it. (I think?). Could we get our own "folder" or whatever it is called, like the other study groups, and have a thread on each card? Or would that take up too much space on the server?
So I guess for now, I'll just reply to the posts on the Magus & Fool.
Thanks,
DeLani
Originally posted by MystiqueMoonlight
OK all I think we all agree that this deck is truly wonderful.
I'd like to ask everyone though to just step back one card to the Fool and express their general understanding of this card and how the Fool card in this deck impacts on you. That is, as well as your general knowledge of what the Fool represents what other ideas come to your mind when you look at this card? Are their any special meanings in this particular card for you and what do you find is the most influential aspect of this card to you?
Is this ok with everyone?
I agree with what was said about the Fool being like a baby, all limbs open and trusting. As Ziegler says it, the umbilical cord has 4 spirals, each with a different meaning. I find the horns (connecting him with Dionysus) interesting, tho.
DeLani
maybe a thread a card? otherwise this one will get very long and hard to read in the end......
kaz
Dragonfly
09-05-2002, 16:03
That would be great I was hopeing that someone wanted to get the group going. I would but I feel I do not know enough. But I'am willing to help all I can. Blessings :)
i don't know if this study group is active or not.
my card for today was 12, the hanged man and the deck i used is cosmic tribe - but i picked out the Thoth for comparison and even read some in the Book of thoth and i must say i am at a loss to what Crowley means with this card.
self-sacrifice and redemption is wrong and a bad idea, every man and every woman a star, worship the ignorant...
when i look at the man in the picture i see a man that is "blank" no features, like a foetus or a person long dead, just a mumble and a whisper of life in those cold constricted limbs. the blue grid under/behind him should be water(?) but looks like an iron-grid, trapping him.
any ideas on how i can close in on this card?
(i am looking for an easy way here, i know)
hi jema, i haven't been participating in this group, and i don't have crowley's book. as no one else seems to be posting, maybe i could try to help a little. perhaps what crowley is saying by self-sacrifice and redemption being wrong and a bad idea, is that one should not sacrifice self, but sacrifice one's ego. every man and woman a star; we are all made of the light, our ego's are not our selves. let go of them. the grid pattern represent those patterns and habits that restrict and limit us, that we need to release. the blank face could represent letting go of ego concerns, a state of non-judgement, a state "bearing witness", a releasing of fear, anger, a state of just "being".
Originally posted by zorya
the blank face could represent letting go of ego concerns, a state of non-judgement, a state "bearing witness", a releasing of fear, anger, a state of just "being".
hey, i like that!
thanks:)
you gave me something to ponder there.
Angel Star
22-06-2002, 21:47
I would be very interested in this study group as the Toth deck was like the 3rd deck I picked up and it grew on me quite fast. I had information about why the 3 magician cards from the owner of the metaphysical store I bought them from but I don't remember now what he said. He owned the deck and I bought it from what I had seen of his deck. This deck is one of my personal favorites for doing readings just for myself. It really gets in depth at times. I use all 3 cards when I read cause I always forget to take the other 2 out. Only a couple of times did all the Magician cards show up and that was at a time that I was having someone throwing black magick at me. Other than that only 1 always shows up, unless of course I throw down the whole deck which I have never had to. This sounds like an interesting study group looking forward to it. Take care all. :)
coldsuns
02-03-2003, 05:25
I only have 1 Magus in my deck! Am i able to get the other 2?